Is the biggest news today really…
…whether Trump was right about thousands of Muslims in Jersey City on TV celebrating 9/11?
One would think so.
I beg to differ. Why? Doesn’t the veracity of a candidate matter?
I think anyone who is paying attention to Trump already knows he exaggerates. Most people favoring him (and let me repeat that I am not one of them) support him because they believe he is strong on immigration and says the otherwise-unspeakable, and they don’t care if he plays fast and loose with a few facts along the way.
I also think anyone who has paid attention to 9/11 knows there are probably some Muslims in this country who celebrated 9/11, and knows there were indeed thousands and even millions who openly celebrated 9/11 round the world. That latter group are the ones we saw on TV. Anyone who is paying attention knows that the MSM and its fact-checkers also routinely distort what Trump and the other Republican candidates or Republicans in general say, and ignore exculpatory evidence about them. And anyone who is paying attention knows that the Republican nominee’s likely opponent, Hillary Clinton, is pretty good at exaggerating and lying herself.
Trump versus Hillary is one of my worst nightmares, although by no means the worst. But this particular statement of Trump’s really doesn’t change a thing for me, and I doubt it does for his opponents or even his supporters. Does it?
I’ve been reading up on reports that support Trump’s claim. Not the ‘thousands,’ but certainly groups of muslims in NJ were reported by the police to have been ‘celebrating’ and they were stopped and questioned. So the most someone can say is that it was not ‘thousands,’ but, yes, it did happen.
What bothers me more is in the 14 years since 9/11, we already have a generation of kids who don’t get it and are more interested in inviting pro-muslim speakers to campuses rather than listen to any opposing view points.
Those who died on 9/11 would be HORRIFIED that Americans are giving sympathy to the very types of people who killed and maimed and destroyed in NY and DC.
Honestly, part of it is the disconnect for many who were not anywhere near the sites of terror on 9/11. For those of us who were, we will NEVER forget who caused the deaths of so many Americans. No matter how many want to forget and sweep it all under the rug.
Powerline did the research: http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2015/11/washington-posts-fact-checker-doesnt-read-the-washington-post.php
So Trump is not 100% accurate about a newspaper article from 14 years ago. I think most voters got his point and won’t hold the minor miscue against him. What’s really amazing is that it seems he read all the way through to paragraph 15 of a Washington Post article!
roc scssrs:
I read the Powerline article before I wrote my post.
The WaPo article mentions allegations about a few celebratory Muslims in Jersey City—never “thousands” and not on TV. But the latter two facts are what Trump had alleged. He said thousands, and he said he watched it on TV.
It’s actually not a “minor miscue” of Trump’s. It’s a major exaggeration, and the TV allegation is either wrong or a lie (I don’t know which). I doubt he was basing his facts on the WaPo story, either. I think he was basing it on a faulty memory.
As I said, it won’t convince anyone one way or another. I don’t think most people are on the fence about Trump, and his supporters will not care about something like this story.
Speaking of “news”, six weeks ago I flew across the U.S. in an airplane I built myself and didn’t watch the “news” for roughly three weeks. I didn’t miss it at all and had no desire to even turn on the TV in the various motel rooms where I spent the night. I found that all those things that the talking heads tell us are “Important!” really aren’t. My focus changed completely from the “news of the day” to the real important things: The weather, how my engine was running, how much fuel I would need for the next leg, where I was going to spend the night… all that stuff. In the middle part of my trip I flew over part of the Oregon Trail W of Laramie. Looking down on that desolate terrain from 12,500′, I thought about those brave pioneers who made the crossing the hard way. They didn’t care about the “news” from the East; They were focused on staying alive each day and getting to their destination. Come to think of it, I guess that’s what I was doing too.
I hold it against him. It shows that he only cares about the big win and doesn’t bother about facts. After all, he’s really rich. If he does this on the campaign trail, how do we know that he won’t act the same way in office? Will the American people believe him when he has to give them the facts about a serious issue we face? He is simply not thoughtful enough to weigh the pros and cons of issues before he opens his uuge mouth. He figures his lawyers will sort out the details and clean up his messes when the cameras are off. That is simply not how foreign policy works.
expat:
Yes, but my point is that his previous supporters probably won’t hold it against him. Were you a previous supporter?
I don’t think this statement of his will change anyone’s mind about him either way. I could be wrong, of course, but that’s my gut feeling.
Yeah, I didn’t realize he said he saw it on TV. I really wanted to believe he listens to NPR each morning, then peruses the Post and the Times.
But, seriously, he sometime manages to stumble in the general direction of gut-wrenching truths– namely, there were plenty of people in this country, Muslim and non-Muslim, who thought we had 9/11 coming and were not all that upset by it.
It is clear that there were people in New Jersey in Jersey City celebrating the collapse of the World Trade Center. A personal friend, who works in Paterson, NJ saw a number of people celebrating the atrocity that day as well. But the numbers observed do not appear to reach the thousands.
However when you consider this poll it is not inconceivable that many more in America was silently celebrating.
neo,
I agree that Trump’s supporters are committed, but we have to find ways to chip away at their certainty–at least of some of them.
So he exaggerated but the larger point remains; 1 in 5 American Muslims supports violent jihad. On 9/11 there were what 2+ million Muslims living in America?
20% = 400,000 Muslim ‘Americans’ who in their “heart of hearts” HAD to have ‘celebrated’ what in their minds was justified retribution. THAT is the larger truth that Trump’s exaggeration points to…
Given Trump’s prodigious wealth, perhaps “thousands” is his synonym for “a few”.
I think the media blows out of all proportion every utterance by a Republican candidate, to the point where most people are starting to ignore everything they say. I’m not a Trump fan, but I admit I didn’t even research whether it was true or not, I’m so sick of this already. I’m not surprised at all that he exaggerated, but I’m not surprised that it happened either.
I live 20 miles from Youngstown State University in Ohio. There is a large rock on campus that the students paint before sporting events, etc. This morning it was sporting a message from ISIS – “We are coming.” I have no doubt they’re already here, just like they are in New Jersey.
http://fox8.com/2015/11/23/pro-isis-messages-painted-on-rock-at-youngstown-state-university/
My belief is that Trump got two things mixed together: reports of Muslims celebrating in NJ and the video of Palestinians celebrating on 9/11. I can forgive him for that. Both reports are true. He just mixed them together in his head.
I also agree with others on here, certainly there were thousands of muslim immigrants celebrating inside their own minds. I have no doubt of that.
My concern is that Trump”s supporters might prove to be as loyal to him as the people who supported Ross Perot were, and that Trump himself is willing to follow Perot’s example and would be willing to take his 25% +/- hardcore support right over the cliff when he doesn’t get the nomination. Thereby ensuring HRC’s election. History repeating itself.
carl in atlanta:
Not only do I share your concern, but I expressed it in one of the very first posts I wrote about the Trump phenomenon.
On 9/11 moooslimes were passing candies around on Atlantic av and further down, on Clinton st., Brooklyn…
Get real people!
They are amongst us:
Meet Yousef al-Khattab (born Joseph Leonard Cohen)@1:27
More on the Revolution Muslims.
FUBAR!
Tail-gate style parties usually involve more than a couple of guys. The fact that there were such celebrations is disturbing enough. And I don’t doubt it was confined to New Jersey. Geoffrey Britain is in the right track about the number of US Muslims who were celebrating 9/11.
I remember back in 1989, when we were living in London, a neighborhood poll came out listing the primary concerns of congregations in the Queensway area. Most of them were concerned about education, the environment, crime etc. The one exception were the Muslims. Their priority was killing Salman Rushdie. They haven’t got him yet, but a lot have died in his place, and the Fatwa and $3.3m bounty is still in place.
The MSM was determined to shove Muslim culpability for 9/11 down the memory-hole. The few fleeting newscasts of Palestinians dancing in the streets in celebration of 9/11 were soon replaced by images of Yasser Arafat donating blood to help the victims.
Trump is the only candidate directly attacking the MSM for its dishonesty on Islamic terrorism.
Perhaps Trump was mis-remebering a clip from Jeremiah wright’s sermon….
“mis-remembering” …. I think
K-E,
You are probably right about the attitude of many of our nation’s young who were not old enough to truly understand 9/11, but I’m always amazed England dumped Churchill so quickly after the war and our nation barely elected Truman to a second term. People seem to want to forget wars and violence as quickly as possible.
snopercod,
That’s very impressive! Congratulations and glad you made it safely!!
I’ve heard at least one source verifying the claim.
But as K-E says
I suspect the same. Here’s my source, and how I understand the recollection:
A NJ caller not many years older than host, Sean Hannity, said he remembers seeing this from Patterson, NJ, on local TV: some Arabic or Muslim business owners outside on the street celebrating the felling of the “Twin Towers” (as it was referred to in Islamic chat rooms). The caller said this unseemly display provoked local drug dealers to start beating up these men. And that on-looking cops let them do so before intervening.
Again, this aired on local television on or immediately after 9/11.
Naturally – as with many obscenities about 9/11, like the jumpers in the original coverage – this story got eliminated from local TV News coverage, out of fear of inciting vigilantte violence against Muslims or Arabic looking peopls.
Sean said he’d look into it (especially the video), and Sean Hannity has long lived in NJ. And Trump, of course, is a long known NYC celebrity.
If not video, should the caller be correct, then victims, witnesses, as well as police – or maybe a collector of 9/11 historical documents – may well come forward to share their documents or testimony.
I survived a history of personal childhood trauma (PTSD), and after 9/11, I had hoped to contribute to a new thematic area of historical scholarship: national trauma in history.
For example, the total deaths from the Sioux Uprising in Western Minnesota in the summer of 1862 – proportionate to national population (over 700) – were larger in total civilian casualties than on 9/11.
(In recent years, Wikipedia has been sanitized of details and gore concerning the white victims, and made consistent with PC-victim pieties, and it is now all about the Indians, neglecting the white ones. But read here: “The war lasted nearly six weeks, during which more than 600 civilians and U.S. soldiers, as well as an estimated 75-100 Dakota, lost their lives,” at http://www.historicfortsnelling.org/history/us-dakota-war instead.)
Yet my perfect memory-challenged mind comports fairly close to what the caller shared on Monday.
The NJ event was a vicious little side-show on 9/11, itself a difficult memory for me to suffer through again: I’ve been retelling it to certain younger friends in England and the Netherlands – teenagers too young to have experienced 9/11 at that time, but who need to understand what’s happening around them today. I therefore doubt that such a searing event did not leave its trace on Trump.
After a shared and public traumatic event, people tend to tell and re-tell these kinds of stories for awhile, until they decide to close themselves off from the horror and the ugliness and revulsion it evokes. Then they “tuck it away.”
Again, I believe Trump is no different than you or me in this regard.
LisaM writes” ” This morning [the public rock] was sporting a message from ISIS — ‘We are coming.’ ”
Being a university campus, I’d suspect vicious SJWs first, before concluding that this is either evidence of a cell or a terrorist sympathizer.
The thugs of SWJs embrace exploiting victimizing like this – not ISIS (or at least not yet).
roc scssrs says: Trump “sometimes manages to stumble in the general direction of gut-wrenching truths— namely, there were plenty of people in this country, Muslim and non-Muslim, who thought we had 9/11 coming and were not all that upset by it.”
Remember Obama’s Pastor, Jerimiah Wright, and his “chickens..are coming home…to roost!” speech. And University of Colorado’s faux Indian, Professor Ward Churchill talking similarly in speeches, paid by college and universities.
We are less in a war against Islam than in an insurgency by the most zealous. The difference is that terrorism is a tactic used to publicize fear, divide a population, and inspire copycat attacks (by religious sympathizers, whether genuine of secular. Wars typically involve less divisiveness or strategies to divide.
Remember how President Bush told Americans to go shopping? And that the Left mocked Bush, “astonished” at a war involving no shared “sacrifice” – as though body searching to enter a plane and standing in line for, possibly, hours is no sacrifice.)
Remember, these sorts are our enemies, too.
ANOTHER eyewitness recalls this, but in a different Jersey town:
Istapundit.com Retweeted
(https://twitter.com/michaelgunderud)
Michael Embalmer â€@MichaelGunderud Nov 22
@ABCNetwork I was in Jersey City, NJ when Muslims were cheering when those towers came down. #DonaldTrump is right. It was in Journal Square
SOURCING my line above, “We are less in a war against Islam than in an insurgency by the most zealous.”
FoxNewsInsider â€@FoxNewsInsider 6h6 hours ago
Former Extremist [Maajid Nawaz]: We’re Not Facing WW3, We’re Facing a Global Jihadist Insurgency #KellyFile http://bit.ly/1SY6YPD
His formulation is more insightful and precise. Worthy of unpacking….
neo, I well remember footage of the towers burning in the background while Muslims in the foreground were handing out sweets.
The video was such that it could’ve been taken in New Jersey or Greater New York City.
I know that one of the most active, radical, mosques is in New Jersey. It’s track record with the FBI and ICE is astonishingly bad.
When the camera panned, it was a block-party of Muslims jumping and whooping it up.
I have no doubt that many other radical held similar sentiments, but had no pals to party large with.
What’s doubly shocking with Muslim treats: they are freshly prepared when such events occur.
Muslims don’ use kafir, store-bought, treats — least of all kafir Halloween treats.
Each Muslim wife must have a family recipe for cranking them out on short notice.
This activity is seen ALL THE TIME in Israel — after every atrocity.
It constitutes a collective dancing on the graves of the deceased, nothing less.
carl in atlanta Says:
November 23rd, 2015 at 6:16 pm
My concern is that Trump”s supporters might prove to be as loyal to him as the people who supported Ross Perot were, and that Trump himself is willing to follow Perot’s example and would be willing to take his 25% +/- hardcore support right over the cliff when he doesn’t get the nomination. Thereby ensuring HRC’s election. History repeating itself.
&&&&
You don’t know a THING about Trump if that’s your ‘take.’
Trump can’t stand to lose.
Running third party means that he’d lose — for a certainty.
He’d rather chew off his right hand.
The financial losses to his empire would be enough to bankrupt him — PERSONALLY.
He’s still leveraged. Without leverage, Trump would not be a billionaire.
&&&&&&
I don’t favor Trump.
If figure that he’s got plenty of dead baggage that HRC will drop on him.
But, it’s getting late.
While I hope Cruz moves to the top…
I would not be surprised to find that the ultimate ticket is Trump-Cruz.
Trump has already shown that he can handle the media in a way that Carson can’t.
Carson’s interview with Megan Kelly was a fiasco.
She repeated her gotchas — that fell flat with Trump — to damaging effect with Carson.
Carson just is not used to the shark-tank mentality of the MSM – -which includes Fox.
As for Kelly, I hope she’s a Cruz supporter. Flaying Carson can only redound to Cruz’s candidacy.
Bombastic as he is, Trump has a personal track record of treating his own troops and wives well enough that none is willing to slam him.
That his ex-wives are talking him up — is nothing less than remarkable.
I also expect that Trump — and Cruz — are building an oppo file on Hillary to beat all.
So, it’s not going to be a one-way affair.
I further expect that ISIS will pull off an atrocity — or more — before the November vote.
They’ve got suicide cells all over creation.
The bubbling exposure of Barry Soetoro’s treason could yet — against all expectations — eject him from office — leaving Joe Biden with a promotion.
Remember, and remember well, no-one was figuring Nixon to leave office — right up until the final days.
For, until then he had unwavering support from his party.
The second it collapsed, Nixon headed for San Clemente.
The exact same dynamic holds everywhere and for all time.
Joe Biden has a lot of Gerald Ford in him. The good-ol-boy log-rolling reputation is still with him. He’s not abrasive — like Hillary or Al Gore.
A Joe Biden care-taking presidency would let Pelosi and Reid have FAR more influence than they do now.
On the present trend, both figure to lose even more strength in each chamber.
Polling already is establishing that Trump (+Cruz) would beat Hillary — with the trend going the wrong way — month after month — for Hitlery.
I expect that the GOPe is going to have to fall on their swords.They don’t have ANY candidate that is in their corner.
Ironically, Rubio needs to distance himself from the Big Money.
In contrast, both Trump and Cruz have huge powder magazines.
I still prefer Cruz — but I could live with Trump-Cruz.
I know that Trump is a delegating manager. He flatly does not micro-manage.
I have a hard time believing that Carson could possibly stop micro-managing — a necessity for a brain surgeon. There’s nothing to delegate.
Neo asks: “Doesn’t the veracity of a candidate matter?”
Of course. But then one ought to give a real estate developer credit for having good sound local sources, or else being a failure (since “location, location, location” is always the first three rules of success). And Trumpie ain’t that.
Mark Steyne reviews the Hinderaker/Kessler smackdown, here
http://www.steynonline.com/7313/jersey-sure
The truth is that Trump is clean… ie. he may be blunt, a bit exaggerating, and so on, but they put his life and even his families life before him under a microscope, and he has come up as paying women well, never doing a dirty deal they can find if ever, and on and on.
THIS is what scares them more than anything else!!!
he is a horse that wont wear their bridal as all the other candidates have to, and have some dirt, so they would rather the shielded Hillary runs against them, not against the man who has no negs to influence him, and is NOT controlled by PC games that limit him and unlimite her, and so on..
Crows Kessler:
Trump says that he saw this with his own eyes on television and that it was well covered. But an extensive examination of news clips from that period turns up nothing. There were some reports of celebrations overseas, in Muslim countries, but nothing that we can find involving the Arab populations of New Jersey.
Powerline quickly found in Kessler’s own Washington Post, dated September 18, 2001: In Jersey City, within hours of two jetliners’ plowing into the World Trade Center, law enforcement authorities detained and questioned a number of people who were allegedly seen celebrating the attacks and holding tailgate-style parties on rooftops while they watched the devastation on the other side of the river.
expat Says: neo,
I agree that Trump’s supporters are committed, but we have to find ways to chip away at their certainty—at least of some of them.
they are printing up your communist party card… given that the others have flipped on their position to gain votes from trump (so they will change in office like obama), and that the left WANTS the others is not enough for you.
yeah.. you would have prevented reagan from office too for much of the same reasons they play games with his image then as well..
thanks tovarish…
cause if you think ANY other candidate will act upon the things you think and have mentioned over time here, your nuts…
your the perfect example why leftist despotism works
they make you hate and dislike anyone but a candidate like them, or what they want… NOT what is a thorn in their side, making you a helper and only in opposition by whining…
No, Canada: Sen. Ted Cruz has formally shed his dual citizenship
U.S. Senator Ted Cruz was NOT born in the United States. He was born in Canada and became a Canadian citizen at birth. Like many Senator Cruz moved from his country of birth (Canada) to a new country (the United States). Senator Cruz either was or became a U.S. citizen. It has been reported that Senator Cruz has renounced his Canadian citizenship. This was a simple procedure with virtually no costs.
so i am sure he will do great for the US citizens.
at least he knows Canada won’t try to FATCA or FBAR him
In a FATCA world, many people are forced to take steps to ensure that they are NOT considered to be U.S. citizens. The FATCA rules have created an environment where U.S. citizenship is a frightening accusation. It is an accusation that comes with significant threats and anxiety. U.S citizens abroad sometimes have difficulty maintaining the financial arrangements they need to live a normal lives. In some cases they have difficulty maintaining bank accounts. In some cases they have difficulty maintaining retirement accounts. I have witnessed, Canadian money management firms, purge U.S. citizens from their customer base. (The letter to the U.S. citizen says: Transfer your account away from us in 6 weeks or we will liquidate your account and send you a cheque. Note that the liquidation is a taxable transaction.)
It constitutes a collective dancing on the graves of the deceased, nothing less.
I always thought that they made great napalm targets, all out on the open like that, Blert.
So Trump is not 100% accurate about a newspaper article from 14 years ago. I think most voters got his point and won’t hold the minor miscue against him.
Trump did use the Left’s propaganda to hold it against Carson, however. Or fell for the pit, in other words.
k-e said:
“My belief is that Trump got two things mixed together: reports of Muslims celebrating in NJ and the video of Palestinians celebrating on 9/11. I can forgive him for that. Both reports are true. He just mixed them together in his head. ”
and blert posted they remember seeing a video as well.
I recall seeing stills of such things as well. Was it from NJ? I thought so, but don’t recall. I’m not a Trump supporter (I’m a Cruzaholic) but will vote for whoever gets the R (as long as they are pro-life and pro-gun).
Whether all of the details of the videos/stills is “true” or not, most people will believe any “debunking” to be BS, I think. I think that stands for most Rs. It certainly does for me. I mistrust everything the MSM states.
To answer your main question – I don’t think it matters to anyone with regard to changing opinions. I know Trump supporters and they won’t care.
Completely off topic, but ArtfldgrsGhost is right about FATCA. Is was stealth a provision in one of Obama’s stimulus bills, and the full effect kicked in this year. US citizens living abroad or contemplating it will be severely handicapped. Our brokerage firm tells us that they will probably not be able to manage our retirement portfolio if we move out of the country. FATCA imposes onerous reporting requirements on foreign and domestic financial institutions managing the accounts of US citizens overseas. Not surprisingly, these institutions are telling their customers “thanks, but no thanks”.