Now, here’s a hypothetical
Commenter “Ackler” poses the following hypothetical:
…[S]uppose that tomorrow Obama announced he was canceling the 2016 Election by executive order. Either he would stay in power indefinitely or he would voluntarily cede the Presidency to the anointed Hillary (or Biden, etc) on 1/20/2017. Furthermore, he suspends the 114th Congress immediately. For the remainder of his term, laws will come about through executive order.
To be clear: Obama has not declared martial law, utilized the military or threatened anyone who dissents. Nope. He just announced the above is happening and that’s that.
Yes, there would be an uproar. Immediate calls for impeachment throughout the right of the spectrum. My question is: what of liberals? I’m not thinking of the fire breathing Alinskyite academics/journalists/activist ”“ organizer types (who would cheer him on gleefully). I’m thinking of our ordinary “good German” liberal (“moderate”, ever so moderate!) neighbors and colleagues. How many would raise a fuss, would be shocked, scared and outraged? How many would simply shrug secure in the knowledge that the ends justify the means?
Whether you think Obama capable of such a thing and/or planning such a thing, or whatever you think he would do if it didn’t work out as planned for him, is irrelevant for the purposes of this post. The question is how people would react initially.
Ordinary people, that is, of the liberal and/or LIV persuasion. My guess is that there would be enough of them who would shrug or reluctantly approve, enough that the only real outcry would be among conservatives. Many liberals would justify or excuse Obama’s move by arguments that, after all, something had to be be done, because Congress has accomplished so little and Republicans are so negative and just plain mean.
As I’ve gotten older and older, I’ve come to observe that most people don’t understand the importance of process versus content. That is, the way something is done doesn’t bother them as long as it gets done (that is, if it’s something they want done). Ruthlessness is applauded as strength, tyranny as decisiveness and accomplishment. “After all, he made the trains run on time.”
And he ended up shot, spat upon, and hung head down from a meat hook.
It would be an interesting challenge for those who just shrug their shoulders at how our Constitution has been trampled over the years. Right now, no one seems to care.
Maybe something outrageous, like what you describe, would get people active in their own government again.
And even worse, the ignorance of history and principles regarding our Constitution and nation even exists within our own conservative community. Sad times indeed.
I’m sure that all the lefties and most of the LIV’s would be thrilled.
Tribalism runs deep, no? In-group/out-group psychology is always with us and I believe that ‘liberalism’ (as opposed to expressly ideological leftism/Marxism) is first and foremost motivated by the deep-seated need to feel that one is “in with the in-crowd”.
Regardless of what the ‘in-crowd” is up to.
I think in general we should forget the idea that the left will do anything dramatic. They have learned from history. It is best to put the populace asleep rather than a real crack down that might upset the apple cart.
It seems that there are those on the right who expect the left to over reach and precipitate their own downfall. The left is too calculating to make that mistake and our side will be better off once we realize it.
Where the real action is right now is with the 1st and 2nd amendments. Totalitarian control s so much easier if one does not have to worry about those pesky items.
We are being played. Many things are not as they seem. For instance, wondering if other people got the impression I did in the Obama 60 minutes interview. I saw it as a complete set up designed to make us think the media is coming around and will do for the right what they did for the left with Nixon. Heh, there are still many of us even on the right who do not understand that Watergate was nothing more than pay back for Nixon’s going after that darling communist, Alger Hiss.
The hypothetical is stated baldly, which is part of the puzzle. If it were put so starkly, there would indeed be a fair number of apoliticals, moderates, and well-meaning liberals who would object, which would provide enough cover for the fire-breathers who would move to prevent this.
But if it were presented with better PR – and it certainly would be – it would offer cover in the other direction. All those middle people would have some excuses done up for them with a bow, and they would express regret, and sorrow, but they would let the thing pass. They would be sure the crocodile would eat them last.
Unfortunately, you are probably correct. I had gotten over my worry about him disregarding the 22 ammendment, thinking he’s looking forward to golfing, making a ton of money speechifying, and going on TV to tear down the next president. So after I had hung up my tin foil hat, here he is on TV, AGAIN, talking about how he’d be able to win re-election a third time. Sort of like planting the idea in people’s heads that, why not, he’s been awesome enough that he deserves a third term. And all the great things he has done will need to be protected. Guess we’ll find out if a Republican wins in 2016.
The premise that 95% of all Americans would not be immediately outraged and storm the WH is the scary thing.
KLSmith
Obama will copy the scam that is the Clinton Crime Family Foundation. Tons of money to be made; especially in Africa. Michelle to run for Senate in IL or VA.
It’s an interesting hypothetical Akler poses. I’m curious to hear how Akler describes the “The conclusion I typically come to is almost too painful to acknowledge.”, which I note in regards to “typically” implies some multiple or variable conclusions, and not just one conclusion.
Be that as it may, I think first to wonder how the many Governors and independently minded prosecutors across the nation would react, for at least on nominal terms their powers are considerable, and not to be taken lightly.
“Michelle to run for Senate in IL or VA.”. It wouldn’t be unprecedented, there was a Roman Emperor who made his horse a Senator.
An interesting question is, what would the military do? After all, they take an oath to protect and defend the Constitution, not the Commander-in-Chief.
The upper echelons now seem to be highly political, with diversity, females in combat roles at all costs, and the status of Muslims, gays and even transgender military of prime importance, but veterans not so much. Many of the admirals and generals with actual field experience seem to have retired under Obama, who didn’t listen to them anyway, since he knew more than they did about everything, apparently. That worked out well.
Would they sit by and watch a bloodless coup take place, or would we see the now-unthinkable, a military takeover?
Interestingly, I think such move would require the conspiracy of governors as the elections are actually state run to select presidential electors. And any dissolution of Congress would require military support.
Now both would be abject violations of the Constitution and as such would demand all those of us who have sworn to protect and defend the Constitution to take up arms. Any in the military who supported this action would be guilty of treason and violation of their oaths. Same for any federal employee, including the Secret Service. Those who choose against their allegiance to the Constitution would be given no quarter in battle or in the subsequent trials.
Also, while many like to bandy about martial law, martial law in the United States would be unConstitutional, except in areas of active combat operations.
So now we are civil war between those who seek to abandon the grand experiment and those who seek to restore the ancient liberties…yet again. Do we have the intellectuals who believe in the ancient liberties to craft a new and more robust protection of those liberties since the Constitution would have failed as had all those prior attempts?
On the upside, we’d discover if those gun controllers actually didn’t want guns or had caches and really just wanted their enemies to not have guns.
But can they ever be sure the military would choose dishonor? I would bet they honor their oath. And what of the local police forces? Will they betray the Constitution? Or will local sheriffs be the focal points of militia formation?
An amusing speculation but to abrogate the Constitution so overtly would be a major error. As it is we are left with the question of how much undermining of the Constitution by the courts is going to be a decision to far? This promotes hesitation.
I think in general we should forget the idea that the left will do anything dramatic. They have learned from history. It is best to put the populace asleep rather than a real crack down that might upset the apple cart.
That was what they were doing pre 2008. After 2008, they began mobilizing their strategic assets. At a certain point, that becomes way too obvious, their mask falls off. Mostly because their God King, or Islamic Caliph to use the Islamic pov, ordered them to do so, from the Throne of America.
The Left wasn’t planning on going active that soon. My estimate is that they would declare total victor in 50 years, at 2007, at the rate they were going.
I vote with Gerard. Regardless the actions of the military and LEAs as a whole, there would be a multitude of military and civilian assassins counting their lives as nothing compared to the honor of destroying such a tyrant. And who among the gutless swarm of Obama sycophants would then try out for Dictator 2.0? Those beta males and hysterical women can’t even drive their own cars and head for the fainting couches at the whisper of an insensitive word. It almost makes you wish they’d try it – it’s high time for some spectacular patriotic entertainment.
It’s not a good idea to go for the head of the snake, since the Leftist alliance is a many headed hydra. You have to destroy the base first, starting with the bureaucrats and PlannedProfit sub directors. Those are the Active Measures squads and the active operations that feed the Left. Getting rid of a single hydra head or 5, doesn’t do anything, since they Regenerate.
Those beta males and hysterical women can’t even drive their own cars and head for the fainting couches at the whisper of an insensitive word.
That’s why they have drone assassin and nukes for.
It doesn’t take a warrior to use America’s technological fruits.
http://oathkeepers.org/oktester/declaration-of-orders-we-will-not-obey/
This subject has been in various para military, police, and warrior sub cultures for quite some time now. I want to say around 2009 but cannot recall exactly when they got up to official status.
But generally, when Civil War II happens, there will be a way to change the ROE to recognize A and B types, so you don’t get them mixed up.
As for martial law, the military has not yet been successfully 100% purged and replaced with loyal Leftist officers. So they will count on Hussein “civilian defense forces” for much of the work instead. After the Marathon bombings, why did the police declare a curfew? Isn’t a curfew something normally seen under martial law?
Would they sit by and watch a bloodless coup take place, or would we see the now-unthinkable, a military takeover?
How would the loyalists take over the military if they have retired?
The military will obey their officers, and if their officers are Leftists and the entire chain of command is Leftist and 50% of a unit is Leftist so they will inform the hierarchy when a non Leftist begins moving, the military will, at best, be locked down and completely ineffective.
But that is, as mentioned above, not the focus of the Left for totalitarian control. Mind control is still their best weapon for Total Control.
It could be case that “ordinary people” wouldn’t be all that concerned, but I’m not sure it would be because they “don’t understand the importance of process versus content”. They very well could on an intellectual level, but the world is an increasingly chaotic place, and because of advanced mass communication, we’re more aware of this than ever. So, it could be people are more concerned at the emotional level with order than anything else. And all the fine points of tyranny versus democracy have been, well, “trumped” by that.
vanderleun Says:
October 13th, 2015 at 12:10 pm
Yo!:
And he ended up shot, spat upon, and hung head down from a meat hook.
All of them!
“And he ended up shot, spat upon, and hung head down from a meat hook.”
By what process?
I agree with your point about the assassin drones and nukes, Ymarsakar. However, I stick to my observations. Those technologies are available to all, while the mental discipline and practical preparedness are mostly on the side of the warriors. Leftists have blinded themselves to the classic virtues and abandoned resourcefulness in favor of reliance on government. That kind of foolishness may work for a while, but never in human history has it paid long-term dividends.
Obama, as we have had amply proven to us, has no durable appeal. He will not be the figurehead of a permanent statist coup nor will he inspire decades of socialist gains. On the contrary and in contrast to his own expectations, his biggest successes have been increasing the popularity of guns among the law-abiding, setting race relations back a few generations, and turning hundreds of local and state elected bodies conservative.
An attempt to become our first dictator-for-life would be as doomed as his pathetic fight against nicotine addiction. Sure, the lefties would come up with more Kim Jung-un aspirants if we strung up the first, but the bench is even deeper on the freedom fighters’ side.
Several of your commenters are edging towards what might happen. The mass of those living in the “fly over” country are already outraged and enraged at this government and, more specifically, at Obama. Taking actions such as those mentioned could well be enough to go past the tipping point.
The majority of the governors who control their National Guards; the large numbers of people who, according to BO are “clinging to their guns; the various armed militias – what would their reactions be? People could take steps they might not have considered if it is done in defense of the constitution. And every time Obama makes wild statements about gun control, gun sales skyrocket. Hmmm!
Perhaps someone will feed him a polonium sandwich and blame it on Putin. Or maybe Michelle will stop him so she can move to Hawaii and enjoy her fame and money.
All you have to do to understand “what would happen” is to read Unintended Consequences by John Ross. It ain’t pretty but it is what it is. The elites of the beltway, NYC, LA, Seattle, etc. have not the slightest notion of the blood bath they will unleash by Ackler’s scenario. Easily 10% of us peasants can out fox your mercenraries. We understand guerrilla tactics and silent killing. We have contacts with local police, county sheriffs, and national guard units. They understand the consequences to their families should they disobey their oaths.
It would take a million boots on the ground to subdue Kentucky. Good luck with the 49 leftover.
I’ve been in meetings all day so I just noticed this thread. Thanks, Neo, for highlighting my hypothetical. It often crosses my mind whenever I encounter an reasonable, intelligent, fair-minded liberal rationalizing one or another of Obama’s most outrageous actions (amnesty especially comes to mind). I hope I’m too pessimistic in my conclusions (and to be clear, it is purely hypothetical; I don’t think he’d ever actually make such an attempt); I hope that reasonable liberals have a breaking point with him. But I can’t help but have my doubts. Very wearisome.
Since process is important the process of which he makes that declaration does matter, even though you didnt want it to. Outright with no hint, or impetus to hide behind, will present different reactions than if some event happened and it was said to be necessary.
Ambiguity is the key, with it, the people mostly will be deer in the headlights, without it, all manner of things will kick in, including the counter-revolution that is always expected and considered to always appear
The slower the more ambiguous vs the faster the more decisive.
Then there is also what he does after such an announcement.
Not using the power to act is ambiguous, using it willy nilly to make sweeping changes will be clear.
if you draw a grid, out of the blue and willy nilly will potentially have riots and other things which will then force hands into choices that bring more and more clarity and so more and more reaction
the other diagonal would be some premise with no real change in action. this would allow people time to thing, but also time to calm down. their actions will be separated by varying time duration, so they wont all decide at the same time.
people who would want to act would be mediated by others who would never act with the most dangerous being the people who always seek to be reasonable or take the reasonable position. a way to sound smart and thoughtful while doing nothing but creating docility.
To those that know physics the reasonable are the boron in the damping of the criticality of a mediated nuclear reaction.
for those that want to understand my analogy, here is a link that would make it clear
What is criticality?
http://mitnse.com/2011/03/18/what-is-criticality/
just think of the average people as the nuclear material, the extreme situation/s is like adding lots of neutrons above some safe lower base that always exists, and the reasonable are like boron. this is neither good nor bad its a process and its application and outcome is what informs the judgment.
The analogy has one simple, but fatal, flaw. The flaw is that you cannot boil a frog. The flaw in the analogy of boiling a frog, is that when heating up the water, the water has to pass a point where the temperature is unbearable but not yet fatal; and that’s the point when the frog jumps out. The only way to boil a frog is you have to forcibly prevent it from escaping (put a lid on the pot.)
KRB
If this ever happened I assume that the elites (through the MSM) would appeal for national unity and make whatever accomodations they felt necessary. His base would rally to “Dear Leader.” Those on the Right would be outraged but likely do relatively little. The only clear chance would be a counter coup by the military. I wouldn’t count on that, given the conduct of senior flag officers in recent years.
The question of a military coup was raised elsewhere last month, though in a very different context. I believe this was the original story, but the Guardian also ran it:
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/military-coup-u-surprising-number-195400272.html?soc_src=mediacontentstory&soc_trk=fb
About one-third of the people polled said they would support one, including over 40% of the Republicans.
Unfortunately, one or the other of these scenarios probably will happen before 2050. We increasingly are a government of men, not laws. At some point either a sitting president or a rebelious military will put an end to the Republic, “in the national interest.”
“Many liberals would justify or excuse Obama’s move by arguments that, after all, something had to be be done, because Congress has accomplished so little and Republicans are so negative and just plain mean.”
That’s exactly what I was thinking as you outlined the scenario.
Heh, there are still many of us even on the right who do not understand that Watergate was nothing more than pay back for Nixon’s going after that darling communist, Alger Hiss.
Amen, bro.
For the real skinny, see “Witness,” by the great Whittaker Chambers.
Remember how quickly Hitler took power? He just — took it. Got himself elected first, then Made His Move. Pretty fast, and very decisively.
National Socialist German Workers Party was in the driver’s seat, and they kept up the pressure and the blows thick and fast against all opponents.
And it worked.
Random thoughts
Civil war here means world famine.
It does not matter what the military does as they are vastly out numbered and our country is huge. No matter how big the cordon, they are still surrounded. Besides they will have their hands full dealing with foreign opportunists.
The public is armed to teeth and every time Lord of Flies opens his yap on the subject they get more. Greta Van Dope thinks controlling ammo is smart. I guess on her planet a free press doesn’t include ink. Doesn’t matter, the public already has their war cache of billions if not trillions of rounds.
Much of the Feds non-military bully boys and girls didn’t sign up to be the tip of spear and many will shirk their duty if things get frisky. This is even more so at the state and local level.
The cheerleaders on the left will be dismayed to find out that in this game the cheerleaders are in play.
Drones don’t come from the drone fairy and aren’t operated by drone pixies. Post CW may find surviving drone operators standing trial. PP docs and feral judges too. (Cue music https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Wy5maENuo3Q)
This country works because most people cooperate and obey the laws. There are not enough hall monitors in the world to make us behave if we don’t wish to. This country is still full of people, particularly in the west, who respond to compulsory and mandatory with
“Oh yeah?! Who’s going to make me?! You and what army?!”
and mean it.
The surveillance state can be dismantled faster than you think and even with all the spying they don’t seem to be very competent. Probably because looking for a grain of sand on a beach is still hard.
There is a rather large drone maker that you all know that has something like 300 different unions. When one of those unions wants to make a point, they do what they call “work to rule”. They follow all rules to the letter and slow production to a crawl.
There will be resistance
Heh, there are still many of us even on the right who do not understand that Watergate was nothing more than pay back for Nixon’s going after that darling communist, Alger Hiss.
Probably, although my analysis that it was a hit initiated by a sub director of the FBI, who didn’t get promoted.
He just used some psychological and undercover manipulation tactics to get the Left to do what he wanted them to do, and then the Left decided to take all the credit. Back then, though, the Left and the FBI weren’t in the same alliance.
The more likely scenario is that they setup a false flag op about a DC shooter who is a right wing militia guy. Then for the ‘duration of the emergency’, they’ll sell it via the media as a way to maintain democratic power transition, meanwhile they need to fight the “domestic terrorists”. So people will be ordered to aid in the fight against the “domestic terrorists”.
If the drought in the Western US worsens to the point where there is no water and the government controls all the water, they can easily setup refugee and depopulation emergencies there or like the one Europe is doing.
Then after awhile, people will merely “forget” that it was for the duration, like income taxes. The it’ll become “Normalized”.
I don’t think it is that complicated. We live in a nation of wusses now. People who don’t want to lose their jobs, homes, life savings and social security. You can’t protect your home and family from a crowd of enough people who want in, who want what you have. They would rather give it away hundreds at a time, and as has been said above, hope they are the last to be eaten. If they are really lucky, they will die of natural causes before something worse happens to them.
There are not enough individuals in this country willing to band together and turn this ship around. Too many helpless people in cities. Cut off the power and water, close rail lines and roads. Sit back and watch. Three, maybe four days, and the people will do anything you want.
What cracks me up about it is the fact that Obama couldn’t punch his way out of a beauty parlor.
Y says:If the drought in the Western US worsens to the point where there is no water and the government controls all the water, they can easily setup refugee and depopulation emergencies there or like the one Europe is doing.
You may have hit on something as far fetched as it sounds. If there is another dry winter in California the situation will be dire. Towns in the central valley are beginning to look desert like with brown lawns, dead landscaping, and worst of all dead and dying trees. What’s that saying about never letting a crisis go to waste? Leftist environmentalists have already enabled the state to gain control of all ground water and will continue to block the building of new dams. Some people are making plans to leave in the event it all starts to unravel.
Unfortunately, the legal and institutional barriers to a third term for Obama are quite flimsy. See
Is a Third Obama Term Really Impossible?
And here is a follow-up with more detail about FDR and 1940 — Could Obama Run For A Third Term?
You may have hit on something as far fetched as it sounds.
If you thought I was crazy with some of my what if scenarios, people might want to check out what Agenda 21 is on the net.
The “crazies” seem to be coming out of the wood works these days. Makes it easy not to get drone bombed and disappeared over the Pacific, at least, due to data scrambling and false positives.
Rubio’s problems are two fold. First, he lied to get elected to the Senate, Second, he joined the Gang of 8’ to build bridges.
The combination leads many to think he knows no limits defined by principles. And the rejection of many here reflect disgust at his arch betrayals!
Therefore, since I find it difficult to hold such a fine orator and story-candidate to the bar, I want to let him pass – and I hope to see him run for president during the next decade of his political career.
What do I want? I do want to vote for him in good conscience. But how?
Oldflyer’s more detailed list is appealing to me. But even that lengthy list missing something important: what is the danger of unrestricted immigration for a (patchwork) welfare-state?
Louisiana Governor Jindal nailed it when he said that “immigration without assimilation is an invasion.” Then his is an invasion to be effectively defered? (“bleat’s” list of consequences is impressive as it is logical and anticipated.)
If Rubio can express this and adhere to the necessary consequences that Oldflyer lists, then he’s the Golden Boy, indeed.