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Home » Obama, Netanyahu, Alinsky, and Feinstein

Obama, Netanyahu, Alinsky, and Feinstein

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Roger Simon calls the pending Iran deal possibly “the worst deal ever made,” and issues a prediction that could be correct:

I don’t enjoy making predictions because I’m usually wrong, but this is what I suspect will transpire as of Sunday night, March 1. A deal ultimately will not be made. Khamenei never wanted one in the first place, only to mark time for more nuclear research. To make a deal would, for him, undermine too many years of hating America, undercutting the rationale for his hideous regime. BUT”¦ Israel (specifically pushy Netanyahu), not Iran, will be blamed for the failure by the U.S. administration and its MSM minions, led by the New York Times. Iran will collude with this, dropping the proper hints ”” if it weren’t for those Israelis we would have had an agreement, but you know they can’t be trusted. The Republican presidential candidates will be swept up in this. They better be ready, but I fear they are not. They don’t impress me as a particularly sophisticated bunch on the international front, I’m sorry to say, and the Iranians know how to play disinformation-hardball almost as well as the Russians. I hope I’m wrong in all this. I hope Netanyahu knocks that same hardball out of the proverbial park and with it some sense into the American public. But I worry.

I don’t know. If I had to bet, I think Khamenei will accept the deal and that it means nothing to him except as a signal that Obama will not and cannot stop him from doing whatever he wants.

Simon goes on to add:

To the Democratic senators and congressmen and women not attending Netanyahu’s speech, in the famous words of George Orwell, you are “objectively pro-Fascist” (in this case pro-Islamofascist). To the members of the Congressional Black Caucus, you are racist with a capital-R if you do not attend. Netanyahu is no more coming here to “disrespect the president” than he is because Obama is part black. Netanyahu is coming here because he takes the words “never again” more seriously than any phrase imaginable. That is the primary job description for the prime minister of Israel.

One of the most distinctive things about the fuss Obama has made about Netanyahu’s speech is not to emphasize their policy disagreements but to focus on the idea that Netanyahu’s overriding motivation for the speech is to win the upcoming Parliamentary election. Like all politicians, Netanyahu is a political animal, and that’s got to be a consideration. But Obama’s stance ignores the existential threat Israel faces and trivializes the dispute in a way that would be almost beyond belief in anyone but Obama. In Obama, however, it’s an unsurprising projection of his own overwhelming narcissism and the dominance of political motivations in his own hierarchy.

In addition, let us never forget that Obama is an Alinskyite. As such, he is following Alinsky’s rule #12 in his treatment of Netanyahu. Rule #12 has long been one of the favored tools in Obama’s well-stocked Alinsky kit. But Netanyahu is the only supposed ally I can recall Obama using it with:

“Pick the target, freeze it, personalize it, and polarize it.” Cut off the support network and isolate the target from sympathy. Go after people and not institutions; people hurt faster than institutions.

Joining in with the implementation of Alinsky’s Rule #12 is California’s Democratic Senator Diane Feinstein, who wraps herself in the mantle of her supposed Judaism (although she is at most a secular Jew on her father’s side; her mother was Catholic and Feinstein is a graduate of San Francisco’s Sacred Heart High School) in order to criticize Netanyahu for “arrogance” in presuming to speak for Jews:

“He [Netanyahu] doesn’t speak for me on this. I think it’s a rather arrogant statement. I think the Jewish community is like any other community. There are different points of view. I think that arrogance does not befit Israel, candidly.”

Here is what Netanyahu actually said:

“I feel deep and genuine concern for the security of all the people of Israel,” Netanyahu told journalists on the tarmac, his wife by his side, before boarding his flight. “I will do everything in my ability to secure our future.”

In a press release before leaving, he called the trip a “fateful, even historic mission.”

“I feel that I am the emissary of all Israelis, even those who disagree with me, of the entire Jewish People,” Netanyahu said. “I am deeply and genuinely concerned for the security of all Israelis, for the fate of the nation, and for the fate of our people and I will do my utmost to ensure our future.”

Netanyahu was speaking of the Jewish people as a whole and about their survival, and even made it clear that not all Israelis or Jews agree with him. Nevertheless, it is his responsibility to prevent another genocide if he can help it.

I would remind Sen. Feinstein that in a Holocaust neither her disagreement with Netanyahu nor her secularism nor her half-Jewishness would protect her from being identified—and persecuted or killed—as a Jew. And Iran will not be making such fine distinctions either.

Comments

Obama, Netanyahu, Alinsky, and Feinstein — 41 Comments

  1. Do you actually think Feinstein would not welcome another Holocaust if it meant a victory for her political progressivism, i.e. the Marxism of the Dem Party?

    To paraphrase Paul, In Marx there is neither Jew nor Greek, Slave nor Free, etc.

    That’s the truth; the absolute truth.

    You think Obama, Pelosi, Reid or any Dem Pol anywhere actually cares about any Jew, as a Jew, anywhere – or any person, as a person, anywhere?

    The Jewish Problem is only one small part of the problem. But it’s a problem and Iran is going to solve it for these people. That’s the way their minds are going. Bank on it.

  2. What will happen, however, will not be what they think and hope will happen.

    Goliath, after all, was a sure winner.

    When the smoke clears, once again the scales will be balanced and despicable Dems and their allies everywhere (Iran, ISIS, Europe, etc.) will be rubbing their eyes asking “what happened?”

  3. “Senator Diane Feinstein, who wraps herself in the mantle of her supposed Judaism (although she is at most a secular Jew on her father’s side; her mother was Catholic and Feinstein is a graduate of San Francisco’s Sacred Heart High School …”

    Will any Jewish people anywhere repudiate Feinstein as a supposed Jew, and for presuming to “wrap herself in Judaism”?

    Will even one Jew anywhere tell Feinstein to take her posturing to hell, and say “No, you are not a Jew, as I am a Jew: and screw you and your feigned indignation.” ?

    Will even one, say it clearly, not allusively, or by implication; but right out loud, and to her face?

    Anyone?

  4. DNW:

    To her face? You’d have to know her personally (unless she’s holding town hall meetings or something like that), and I doubt her personal interactions are reported in the press.

    As far as Jewish senators doing it (since they are the people who have access to her), I believe that all the current Jewish senators are Democrats. So they’re not about to tell her off.

  5. What would Obama do differently if he despised Israel and wanted their destruction?

  6. I too think it likely that Khamenei will accept a deal, not that he’ll honor it but signing a formal deal with the P5+1 world powers is the action most likely to deter Israel from unilaterally attacking Iran before Iran achieves nuclear weapons capability.

    Iran is buying time and Obama is their facilitator.

    The Democratic senators and congressmen and women not attending Netanyahu’s speech are traitors because their obstruction and support for Obama provides active aid and comfort to the enemy. Any in the black caucus who walk out so too declare themselves to be Racist traitors.

    Senator Diane Feinstein has consistently demonstrated herself to be a putz… and now, a traitor; to her nation, to liberty and to her heritage.

  7. This AMERICAN Irish Catholic is more worried for our world Jewish brothers and sisters than most American Jews are.

  8. First, let me say; ” Pshaw, on those who embrace the idea that Boehner and Netanyahu have violated some protocol.” Who decided that Obama should have a vote over who gets to speak to Congress? (Older folks, or those conversant with history, will recall that Gen MacArthur stood at the podium before a joint session, by invitation, just over a week after President Truman fired him.)

    We know that Israeli internal politics is a contact sport; and we know that Netanyahu is an enthusiastic, full contact participant. Therefore he is always “controversial”.

    However, when he speaks of Israel’s security concerns, I take him at his word.

    I also take the Iranians at their word. They have never wavered from their hatred and threats against Israel (and the United States). Some, like our national Pretenders, would suggest that it is just hyperbole, and means nothing–echoes of European wisdom about 75 or 80 years ago.

    We are directed (I won’t say led) by fools and/or Charlatans.

  9. I saw Feinstein give her statement as part of an interview and got the impression it was off the cuff without malice of forethought. Given that it may have received an attention it did not deserve.

    In any event the responses to Netanyahu’s speech are already in. Anyone who is familiar with the crisis knows what to expect. Scott Walker and Jindal gave statements indicating they have a realistic appraisal of the situation. Hillary will probably be the next president (first time a President will be elected on the basis of persistent nagging) and will kick the can down the road. Wake me when its over.

  10. “Senator Diane Feinstein has consistently demonstrated herself to be a putz… and now, a traitor; to her nation, to liberty and to her heritage.”

    She already did in December when she released the Senate Intelligence Committee’s report on the torture of terrorism detainees in the aftermath of the Sept. 11, 2001. This is just icing on the cake.

  11. I don’t know if Roger’s right—I pray not. That said, I imagined John Nauseating Kerry waving a paper just like Neville Chamberlain and spouting “…Peace in our time.”

    I certainly hope to God that Walker, Rubio, Jindal, Fiorina and Jeb are ready to come out swinging at the MSM Toads and Obama if Roger’s prediction is accurate.

  12. The ironic thing is that if Obama and his administration toadies hand’t made such a big stink about the speech, I think that Netanyahu would have politely declined the invitation. Because the administration acted the way it did, Netanyahu had little choice but to accept and speak lest he be seen, if you will excuse the vulgarity, as Obama’s b – – – h. I guess, in an indirect way, this is about his reelection.

    KRB

  13. I’m going to cut Feinstein some slack on this. After all, what she said about Netanyahu doesn’t sound any different from what can often be found in the pages of Israel’s leftist newspaper Haaretz. Look at one of its pieces today, for example — AIPAC delegates: Stand with Israel, not Netanyahu. An excerpt:

    …Netanyahu is blatantly colluding with the Republican Party to publicly embarrass the Democratic president of the United States, while also snubbing leading senators of the Democratic Party — the political home of 70 percent of Jewish-American voters — and evoking a troubling degree of enmity from the U.S. administration.

    and

    The joke in Israel for years has been that Netanyahu heads to AIPAC or to Congress because no one else will give him a standing ovation. He certainly doesn’t get them in Israel. While delegates are cheering Israel’s prime minister, I hope some will ask themselves whether Netanyahu’s vision of Israel in any way accords with theirs.

  14. About Feinstein’s Jewishness — according to the Jewish Women’s Archive’s encyclopedia, her paternal grandfather helped to found several temples in California, and her father was a prominent donor to San Francisco’s Mount Zion Synagogue. So maybe not simply a secular Jew?

    Also, while she did attend the prestigious Convent of the Sacred Heart during her high school years, she also attended Jewish religion classes. This interview in the The Ladies Home Journal in 1979 paints a complex picture of her upbringing — excerpt:

    Her mother was born in St. Petersburg, the daughter of a Czarist Army officer who left Russia, taking his family through Shanghai to Eureka, California, where he died at 32, leaving his widow and four children destitute. Later, Dianne’s beautiful mother became a model for one of San Francisco’s most fashionable boutiques.

    “My mother’s mother was so bitter about her early experiences in this country that she never spoke English, even to us. My mother grew up ill. She had tuberculosis and came to San Francisco as a small child. This is where my story becomes more difficult.

    “It turned out that when she was very young, she contracted a kind of flu – somewhat like encephalitis. It later comes back in terms of brain atrophy. My mother is now in a locked facility, her brain almost totally deteriorated. She had some very disturbing – and self-destructive – behavior patterns. It made my life very difficult and it had a profound effect on me and my two younger sisters. When we looked for psychiatric help for her, we couldn’t get it because she had no insight. That portion of the brain which controlled insight was gone.”

    They did not understand the reason behind her behavior until the early ’70s when the CAT scanner was developed.

    “I don’t know if my childhood experience explains the reason I am able to take pressure,” the mayor said. “I FEEL all the time I’m taking pressure, but it has been a part of my life. My mother would do strange things. The night before I took my college boards, I was kicked out of the house and slept in the car in the garage. But you learn. You do go on. You perform . I don’t have any explanation for it.”

    “Was your father a source of strength during all this?”

    “My father,”she responded , drawing out the phrase with loving pride, “was very much a scholar. He didn’t care at all about material possessions. He’d get a hole in his shoe and put cardboard in it. He was a wonderful, wonderful man, a real teacher. When I was a child, he would take me out on his rounds and I’d get sick to my stomach.I’d sit out there on those wooden benches in the hallways of the old hospital, waiting for him. I grew up hating hospitals. Each time I’d go in, I’d have a physical reaction. He wanted me to be a doctor. The only “D” I ever got in my first year at Stanford was in biology. I told him, ‘See, I can’t possibly be a doctor,’ but he said he got a ‘D’ too. I knew that wasn’t true.’

    Her parents’ conflict over religion was another source of tension. Dr. Goldman wanted Dianne raised as Jewish. The mother wanted her daughters to have every advantage she had lacked – and a Catholic upbringing. So while Dianne attended Jewish confirmation classes at the impressively domed Temple Emanu-el, she also had to go to lessons in doctrine at Sacred Heart.

  15. Ann, I guess what is written in Israel’s leftist paper–Haaretz, which is undoubtedly carrying the water of Netanyahu’s Leftist challenger–matters to you. Maybe what is written in the NY Times, or spoken on MSNBC about GOP politicians, does as well. Not sure that makes it worth quoting here, however.

    As I said, Netanyahu is controversial. Sometimes that merely points to the one who breaks from, and gets out in front of the herd.

    Part of his motivation for speaking here and now may be self-serving; he is a politician. On the other hand that does not affect the validity of the message or the legitimacy of the forum.

  16. I used the Haaretz example only to rebut what Geoffrey Britain said above about Feinstein being a “traitor” to “her heritage.” I’m not endorsing either her or the paper’s position.

  17. The iranians will outlast and out macho the boychild. A deal will eventually be struck allowing bho to declare his magnificent victory, and the mullahs will of course continue to produce weapons grade material and icbm rocketry. The msm will get tingles in their nether parts and declare hrc as the one who laid the groundwork for this historic feat of soft diplomacy.

  18. neo-neocon Says:
    March 2nd, 2015 at 3:52 pm

    DNW:

    To her face? You’d have to know her personally (unless she’s holding town hall meetings or something like that), and I doubt her personal interactions are reported in the press.

    As far as Jewish senators doing it (since they are the people who have access to her), I believe that all the current Jewish senators are Democrats. So they’re not about to tell her off.”

    Yes, that is right. Unthinking of me. Not literally to her face, then. Not even in this era of twitter, and blogs, and so forth.

    How about we take it a notch down from a punch in the face, and more carefully reformulate; and, instead ask something like, “Will they, anyone, go on the record publicly, and in writing, to figuratively disown, to disavow, to categorically repudiate a faith fellowship with, and to draw a line between themselves and Feinstein with regards to Jewishness”.

    And further suppose that we don’t even pretend to expect Democrat Senators to do so, and save ourselves any potential disappointment there.

    Maybe instead we can find a Jewish Republican or conservative somewhere who has used language something like this already: “Senator Diane Feinstein, who wraps herself in the mantle of her supposed Judaism …” (and I do not suggest it would be the author of those words – apparently Simon)

    Maybe someone like that would be willing to take it a step further from implication and insinuation, to confront the issue unequivocally, categorically: to look her in the eye (metaphorically of course) to draw a moral line, and to say to and of Feinstein: ‘You and I do not share a faith or fellowship context, your indignation is feigned and cynical, and you are alien to me, a Jew.’

    Maybe we can find someone like that.

    Or maybe not.

  19. Just to state what cards it is that I see in play:

    ““He [Netanyahu] doesn’t speak for me on this.”

    Thus, she poses as a presumptive Jew; and one whose status enables her to call out Netanyahu, from a privileged and interested position as an insider.

    She, from the assumed status as a fellow Jew, holds forth on what is fitting and what is not, or becoming or not, on the part of the Israeli Prime Minister.

    ” I think that arrogance does not befit Israel, candidly.”

    “I think” is more akin to “I judge” than, it is to “In my opinion”. And the post comma “candidly”, tells us it is an evaluation, not a vague sensibility or notion or impression.

    She is leveraging her debatable status as an insider, her self-styled bona fides, to bolster her attempt to get at Republicans: even if it means undermining Israel.

    You would think that someone somewhere with whom she is claiming fellowship would tell her … off, in no uncertain terms.

  21. “Netanyahu is coming here because he takes the words “never again” more seriously than any phrase imaginable. That is the primary job description for the prime minister of Israel.”

    Netanyahu’s problem is that the busy, busy, busy US JINO’s say “never again” with a whiff of regret …

    Kapos were an essential part in the running of German Socialists concentration camps …

    Ya’ll continue to rational speak and rational think and see what happens to ya’ll … Nothing learned, everything forgotten.

  22. I just read the transcript of that CNN interview with Feinstein. It wasn’t Feinstein who brought up her bona fides as Jew, it was the interviewer who broached the subject:

    BASH: Let me just ask you one more question about the Israeli prime minister’s speech. You are a Jewish-American. You are – and a Democratic senator, so you have a lot of different sort of personal constituencies, if you will. When Netanyahu says he’s coming to speak, he says he speaks for all Jews. Does he speak for you?

    FEINSTEIN: No, he doesn’t speak for me on this. He doesn’t at all speak for me on this. [That “this” refers to Netanyahu’s opposition to Obama’s pending deal with Iran.]

    BASH: So, does that bother you when he says he speaks for all Jews?

    FEINSTEIN: Yes. I think it’s a rather arrogant statement. I think the Jewish community is like any other community. There are different points of view. So, I – I think that arrogance does not befit Israel, candidly. I think Israel is a nation that needs to be protected, that needs to stand free, that hopefully can work constructively with Palestinians to have a side-by-side state, and to put an end to the bitterness that has plagued this whole area.

  23. Ann Says:
    March 2nd, 2015 at 9:06 pm

    That Feinstein is rather nuanced isn’t she?

    Kapo.

  24. Putin did in Nemstov.

    Let us pray Bibi is safe from Barry.

    Never have I feared more for a foreign leader or dignitary of any sort. In fact, I have never feared anything at all about something happening to them.

    Am I the only one who has a slight doubt about unspeakable things? Maybe it is that I have read Eliot’s “Murder in the Cathedral” recently. The chorus there had certain premonitions as well.

  25. My God – what an idiot Feinstein is!

    I’ve managed (and been lucky) to avoid most of what she has to say; but, this quote takes the cake! What an idiot she is! (Thank you Neo for pointing it out to me; I wouldn’t have read it otherwise)

    As an Gentile, I can completely understand any Israeli Prime Minister, not just Netanyahu, saying that they “speak for all Jews” – even though that isn’t exactly what he said.

    Given the history of the Holocaust, and Iran threatening to repeat it (“wipe Israel from the map”) I would expect any Israeli Prime Minister to say “Never Again.” Which is a shorthand for what he said, no?

    And, I agree with you Neo, Feinstein does need to be reminded that if push came to shove she could claim to wear only “half the yellow star” but that they would still treat her no better.

  26. Obama wants to make his historic trip to Tehran just as Nixon did to China. Not only will Iran get its nukes but it will be America’s new bff in the Mid East. Or so it will seem on Obama’s ego trip. Israel will be just one of our ex’s. Maybe it can go out to a bar and bitch with Taiwan. H

  28. Ann:

    So? Feinstein could have answered any number of ways. She chose to answer the way she did.

  30. I don’t give fig about Feinstein. There are other Jews in the House and Senate. They are all Dems, and they are all walking out tomorrow. They are disgusting, craven people who would be enough to make me antiSemitic if they were more numerous.
    One is Steve Cohen, whose district in Memphis, TN is about 60% black. He’s a roach, which is necessary if one is to be a white congresscritter in a black district.

    It will take another 9/11 to begin to set things right here in the USA. For the sake of the country, it needs to happen sooner than later. Later means way more deaths. But it will likely require more than 20,000 dead this time to change minds. Do the mullahs want it bad enough to do it with their buddy Baraq still C-i-C? Or will they wait? World War III looms.

  32. No agreement with Iran is worth the paper it is written on. If Iran signs, does Obama waive the piece of paper and smugly claim victory? Does he not realize that signing an agreement ‘for peace in our time’ instantly makes him a Neville Chamberlain? He is sentencing himself to political oblivion.

  33. Steve Says:
    March 3rd, 2015 at 1:17 am
    “No agreement with Iran is worth the paper it is written on.”

    Exactly. Repeat over and over again.

    It is very difficult to deal with crazies, you have to remind yourself of their craziness over and over and then some more. They lull you into their world for they’re crazy but not dumb.
    Very dangerous.
    That is why every shrink needs a personal “air traffic controller”…

    “The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich”, the chronicle of a take over by whack jobs ….

    Sel-hating US Jews are not helping…
    The pain of it all …

  34. The question of Jews’ voting patterns, and political positions, has been a perennial for years. The liberals, Jews among them, vote against their interests and are only protected from the obvious results by the Lower Orders–cops and soldiers and such like–whom they despise and whose company they avoid. Oh, yeah, and taxpayers.
    Why this may be is a question for leisure. What to do with the phenomenon is more urgent. Eventually, the libs’ actions are going to put us all in danger and questioning their motivations won’t be much use.
    An Israeli intel guy said that they’d told India about Pakistan’s connection to the Mumbai massacre. “Do something.” India answered, “You don’t get it. Pakistan has nukes.”
    Iran will be able to cover its terror and aggression with its nukes. And the usual suspects will say, “You want to start a nuclear war?”
    “self-hating” may be an interesting view of motivation. Question is what to do with the results?

  35. I DON’T like making predictions —

    Because mine almost ALWAYS end up being true.

    Being Cassandra// Nostradamus actually sucks.

    1) If one only lists ones personal track record — well just ask Cassandra how that penciled out.

    2) MANY of the visions are UGLY.

    THEY STILL COME OUT TRUE.

    &&&&&&&

    As for WHY I (chronically) foresee the future – going out decades at a stretch – Hell if I know that one.

    And, NO, I don’t believe in ESP.

    I do believe in God.

    &&&

    Being a minor prophet doesn’t pay — not at all.

    &&

    My forty-year old set of visions WRT Iran are so disturbing that I shall not spew them here.

    &&&&

    One did not have to be a seer to figure out that Stalin and Adolf were up to no good.

    Nor Napoleon,

    Nor Caesar

    &&&&&&&&&

    As for what the future holds: re-read the Bible.

    By their fruits one shall know them.

    Well, SHOULD’VE known them!!!

    &&&

    A life time of personal experience informs me that no sane person can tolerate pre-information.

    &&&&&

    Here’s ONE – totally trivial – instance.

    My Sister is to arrive back from Denver the morning of Saturday…

    And I’m attending her ill son.

    So, as I’m relaxing…

    It hits me: she’s JUST LANDED at the airport – as in seconds ago.

    I inform my eight-year old nephew that “Mom has landed.”

    Naturally, with a quiet house — and phone, he’s puzzled.

    THEN, sixty odd seconds later — the family phone rings.

    She’s calling from the plane — as its rolling on the tarmac.

    She informs me that she just landed — ONE MINUTE ago.

    So, I hand off the headset to my nephew — in puzzlement — then wonderment.

    He’d long been informed by his Mother: “Things are really different with your Uncle!”

    After some eye-rolls, he picked up speed and off to the airport we rolled.

    I contend that such (common for me) events are not ESP.

    For to have such a sense, it would have to be under SOME level of control — like the other senses.

    &&&&&&&&

    This ‘tick’ may be genetic: My Grandmother was rolling through XYZ town — NOT her own city.

    She cried out to my Grandfather: “Stop the car! XY is here!”

    Yes, it’s skid row.

    Taking her man in tow, she leads him — to his astonishment — straight to her alcoholic — and sodden — brother — flat out on the pavement — a block and a half from their car.

    Damnedest thing Grandfather ever saw/ experienced.

    But then, she had deep insight her entire life.

    Her funeral, when it came, was shockingly massive; seriously over-booked.

    As the Hindus would put it: She was an OLD soul.

    What happened to France, Germany, Rome, China, Russia — is now underway in America.

    Unlike the other tyrants – Tyrant ‘Klink’ will cause such extreme suffering to such a degree that history will pass over all other prior evils.

    &&&

    No tyrant can do it alone: it’s not without significance that Putin has gone insane/ paranoid.

    This HAD to have been triggered by our traitor:
    SNOWDEN.

    The absolute mark of the insane: attacking ones friends and allies.

    BOTH BARRY and PUTIN score off the chart by such a measure.

  36. “the Iranians know how to play disinformation-hardball almost as well as the Russians.” Change Russians to American Democrats and you’ll have it right.

  37. The boycott of Netanyahu’s speech by a large segment of the Democrat party just makes clear that they are now the party of anti-Semites, just as they were the party of racists and racism during Jim Crow.

  38. Feinstein is not Jewish, either by birth or by affiliation, just as Barry is not black, by birth or by affiliation, until somebody at Occidental whispered in his ear that he could be the first “black” president if he played “black” well.

    Proving, as if we needed to prove it, that Dems lie — that’s the conservative word, the lefty words are “Advance the Cause” — about everything, including their own origins.

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