Kaci Hickox wins in court
The lower court had upheld state authorities wanting to restrict her movements, but a District Court judge in Maine has overturned that ruling and let her go about her business. The reason? The science is settled:
Judge Charles C. LaVerdiere ruled Hickox must continue daily monitoring and cooperate with health officials if she chooses to travel. The judge said there’s no need to restrict her movements because she’s not showing symptoms of Ebola.
In his ruling, the judge thanked Hickox for her service in Africa and wrote that “people are acting out of fear and that this fear is not entirely rational.”
Maine Gov. Paul LePage disagreed with the judge’s decision, but said the state will follow the law…
The judge…acknowledged the gravity of restricting someone’s constitutional rights without solid science to back it up.
“The court is fully aware of the misconceptions, misinformation, bad science and bad information being spread from shore to shore in our country with respect to Ebola,” he wrote. “The court is fully aware that people are acting out of fear and that this fear is not entirely rational.”
No doubt the judge is also “fully aware” of certain facts I wrote about in yesterday’s post, such as for example this from the irrational and unscientific Nobel-prize-winning immunologist Dr. Bruce Beutler:
It may not be absolutely true that those without symptoms can’t transmit the disease, because we don’t have the numbers to back that up,” said Beutler, “It could be people develop significant viremia [where viruses enter the bloodstream and gain access to the rest of the body], and become able to transmit the disease before they have a fever, even. People may have said that without symptoms you can’t transmit Ebola. I’m not sure about that being 100 percent true. There’s a lot of variation with viruses.”
This could go to a higher court, but I don’t think it will, for two reasons: the state of Maine (and its governor in particular) doesn’t appear eager to do so, and Ms. Hickox’s restrictions were due to expire on November 10th anyway.
So, this is the way the argument is going to go: for the Hickox defenders, it will be “you stupid anti-science morons, we are the scientists who know best.” And this despite the terrible track record scientists and public health authorities have so far in this epidemic, both in controlling it in Africa and in preventing the disease from reaching the US, and then in preventing it from being transmitted to health care workers in the US.
That said, I’ve stated from the start that I think the chances of this particular person, Kaci Hickox, having ebola are very very very slim. So I would bet a fairly large amount of money that she and her supporters will say, on November 10 or even before, “See, dummyheads, she’s fine! Therefore a quarantine would have been wrong.”
Which of course would be a stupid and unscientific argument, although I doubt that will stop them. A quarantine is a game of numbers. It restricts an individual, but it does not require that every restricted individual develop the disease in order to justify the imposition of the quarantine. It doesn’t even require that most of them develop the disease, or even that any of them do so. It merely requires that it is possible they might have developed it, because they have had some exposure to the disease and are in the incubation period, and that the risks of that disease to the public are great enough to justify a very time-limited restriction on their physical movement and freedom of association. Returning health practitioners from ebola-affected countries all have a small but nevertheless actual possibility of infection, and since we are not certain at exactly what point a person becomes contagious, and since people (even health professionals) are not necessarily reliable at reporting and restricting their own movements the minute they are demonstrating symptoms, and because the disease is so unusually dreadful in both its symptoms and high rate of mortality, it could certainly be argued (scientifically and rationally) that a 21-day quarantine (or, as in this case, restriction from being around the public, which is what authorities were asking) is justified.
[NOTE: As one might suspect, Judge LaVerdiere appears to have been appointed by a Democratic governor, John Baldacci.]
[ADDENDUM: On the subject of the possibility of further court action, I just read this:
The current ruling supersedes the earlier order and will be in effect until a full hearing on the issue. The court papers set no specific date for a full hearing, but they noted that such a proceeding must be held “no less than three days and not more than 10 days” from Thursday.
As I said, it’s not clear to me whether the state will try to go further with its legal action.]
I bet the judge went to law school because he flunked college biology 101. People who don’t know a thing about science love to drop names and pretend they are smart.
I’d pay Ms. Hickox serious money to walk right up to that judge and breathe in his face — or, better yet, sneeze on him.
“Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.”
-Martin Luther King, Jr.
I wonder if she or her boyfriend will be able to get hospital jobs after this incident. If I found out that I was going to be cared for by these people, I would request another caregiver or move out of the facility. My reasoning – their lack of judgment on health issues.
I have far more respect for the doctors and nurses who are following quarantine guidelines.
Judge LaVerdiere was also once a Democratic representative in Maine’s state legislature.
Liz,
From what I’ve read, her boyfriend is a student in nursing school. And I think other students there have not wanted him to attend classes during this time.
I’m also not sure Kaci herself has ever been a practicing nurse in a hospital, or whether she does administrative type work instead.
I just saw this:
http://pjmedia.com/tatler/2014/10/31/maine-says-nurse-hickoxs-roommate-had-ebola/
Obama visited Maine yesterday. Wonder if he met up with the judge.
In any case, sure looks like the political fix was in.
the judge looked around and found some penumbras
on another note
NATO reports more Russian flights, intercepts
More Russian military flights and intercepts Friday over the Baltics, North Sea and Atlantic, just days after it picked up “an unusual level” of activity over European airspace.
In one incident, two Russian TU-95 nuclear capable bombers flew west of Britain and down to Portugal, escorted by Norwegian, British and Portuguese fighter aircraft
NATO says that so far this year it has launched more than 100 intercepts of Russian aircraft, three times more than in all 2013.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Hackers who may have been working for the Russian government succeeded in breaching unclassified networks at the White House earlier this month, leading to disruptions as U.S. authorities moved to secure the building’s computers.
A White House official confirmed Wednesday morning that authorities “identified activity of concern on the unclassified Executive Office of the President network.”
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Russian hackers managed to slip a “digital bomb” into the Nasdaq — one with the potential to sabotage the stock market’s computers and wreak havoc on the U.S. economy.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Russian hackers attacked the U.S. financial system in mid-August, infiltrating and stealing data from JPMorgan Chase & Co. (JPM) and at least one other bank, an incident the FBI is investigating
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
North American utilities are scouring their systems for signs of Russian malware that the U.S. government has warned could give hackers control of water treatment facilities and parts of the electrical grid.
The U.S. Department of Homeland Security issued alerts about digital attacks on utility computer systems on Oct. 8, Oct. 17 and Oct. 28. The agency didn’t identify the country behind the hacks, but cybersecurity firms yesterday connected them to Russia.
The DHS alerts said malware called BlackEnergy was used to access to human-machine interfaces, systems utility operators use to control critical functions. U.S. investigators haven’t detected attempts to modify or damage those systems, according to the Oct. 28 warning, suggesting that infiltrators were trying to gain control for later use.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Dont you worry
dont you fear
they are your friends
we hold them dear
obama will save us
just you wait and see
save us from friends, we forgot were enemy
Ann:
The fix wasn’t even necessary, if the judge is a liberal Democrat.
Kaci may well prove to be a pure apparatchik.
Some are speculating that she never actually attended the sick.
This would entirely explain her conviction that she’s at no risk.
blert:
I read somewhere (don’t have time to search now) that she was involved with direct care to ebola patients in Africa.
Here’s a profile piece on Kaci H. at the University of Texas at Arlington website:
That seems to me to indicate she wasn’t doing hands-on nursing in Sierra Leone, but more likely doing analysis and surveillance type of work.
And here’s what Doctors Without Borders says about her work for them:
Kaci Hickox has carried out important, lifesaving work for MSF in a number of countries in recent years, and we are proud to have her as a member of our organization.
Sort of vague, isn’t it?
It’s indicative of the near-superstitious deference that liberals pay to judges that a governor is considered incompetent to decide how great the risk is, but a judge is not.
If Kaci were the only returning Ebola worker that ruling might make sense, but she is not. Worse yet, this means that thousands of people like Duncan who have no healthcare training at all and who are in deep denial of their own exposure will be free to travel unimpeded.
The left are determined to start a nice little Ebola outbreak in the USA. Of course they expect the cases to occur among the hated middle class and among the scorned lower class not among the rich elites. So long as the casualties are limited to those groups a few hundred or even a few thousand deaths are no big deal to the left.
illuminati:
It’s true that Duncan and other laypeople are hardly the only ones ignorant about their exposure, or in denial.
I have been struck by how often one or the other has been true of the health care professionals as well. Kaci Hickox is the most vocal and obnoxious by far, but Spencer, Boyko (whom I wrote about the other day), and even Dr. Sacra (who had no idea how he was exposed, because he wasn’t even working with ebola patients, but who actually came down with ebola) seemed to have been either ignorant or in denial, as well.
If anyone thinks this DIVA nurse handled 3 gallons of daily diarrhea from Ebola stricken Africans, they have got another thought coming.
As well I am sure the lower tier nurses for Mr Duncan in Texas, by lower tier I mean not having MSN or specialties in *tropical nursing*, did indeed deal with the *grunt* work of Mr Duncan’s care.
This nurse is nothing but a red herring moonbat !
MollyNH:
I didn’t mean she was disposing of diarrhea. But I don’t think she had a desk job, either. Something supervisory but clinical, where she sometimes was around patients and therefore exposed.
Again, at the moment I can’t find where I read it.
This all puts people like us (i.e., people who, given the stakes, prefer to err on the side of caution when it comes to the public health approach in handling ebola) in a rather tenuous position. In order for us to prove our point there has to be more victims. That sucks all by itself. But there’s more: If there are no more victims, they (Obama et al) are reinforced in their dismissal of us as uninformed hysterics. This is a no-win scenario.
Neo I think she is *red herring* to advance the cause of saying Republicans are *hysterical*, they will say
” see she is fine, didn t spread anything nasty.
You are being fear mongers,” to paint the Right as
anti science, one of the Lefts favorite memes.
perhaps they are even secreting the info that she is
at very low risk by virtue of her minimal contact.
This judge has just sown the wind. It’s my opinion that if as a result of his decision, if any person or person later catch Ebola from an asymptomatic west-African traveler returning or touring here in America, he should face the full consequences of his decision. He–and his family–should be forcibly relocated to join the Ebola victim(s) in their isolation tent(s) at whichever hospital(s) the victim(s) wind(s) up at.
PS, I have to shake my head
Hollyweird, Obama’s bank account busting donors
they make all those nutty contagious, world killing
virus movies….. crazy !!!
May I say with pride I have never seen a one of them!
Are Brian Beutler and Bruce Beutler related? I wouldn’t think “Beutler” is all that common a name; in fact, I don’t think I’ve ever heard it before. Anyone? Beutler?
Jack,
I think perhaps the judge is bit worried the he may have “just sown the wind” and that there are potential dangers lurking because he did add this warning to Kaci in his order:
“The Court is fully aware that people are acting out of fear and that fear is not entirely rational,” and states that Hickox’s “actions at this point, as a health care professional, need to demonstrate her full understanding of human nature and the real fear that exists. She should guide herself accordingly.”
And I think she got the message because she seems to be singing a slightly different tune now:
“I don’t want to make anyone feel uncomfortable, and so far, Ted and I have shown a lot of respect to this community,” she said. “I am a nurse and a health care worker and don’t want to make people uncomfortable.”
Some news from Kaci:
The nurse, who had been treating Ebola patients in Sierra Leone for Doctors Without Borders, said she was fighting for her rights as well as other health care workers who will be returning from the Ebola hot zone in West Africa. She said that Doctors Without Borders told her another 20 health care workers will be coming home in the next month.
Sounds like some coordination’s been going on.
Sweetheart and the judge are members of the hive. Same goes for belief in AGW. In their minds its ‘settled’. They know the truth, we are troglodytes. As neo’s post from yesterday fully illustrates, what the hive mind believes is not settled science. There will be more ebola patients coming to our shores and eventually a member of the general public will be infected by someone like the sweetheart.
Ann Says:
October 31st, 2014 at 5:04 pm
“Her perseverance paid off. She landed that position she wanted with Doctors Without Borders in Myanmar in Southeast Asia, where she spent two years managing three primary health care clinics. In 2010 she was working on a measles outbreak in northern Nigeria when the Doctors Without Borders team conducted a medical investigation. Children were dying in one village, and the team discovered the cause to be acute lead poisoning from poor gold mining practices.”
1) Lead is not used by gold miners. Mercury is used… it forms an amalgam with both silver and gold. Since even placer gold will always contain some silver, it’s just as well.
What’s curious is that Kaci — who doubtlessly vetted this material — let this horrific error pass on by!
Which can only mean that she was not directly involved at all. She got her information second hand and screwed her account up.
2) Note how Kaci attained certification as an administrator of health facilities.
So, she WAS an apparatchik with MSF… and CDC.
She’s not a hands-on nurse at all. She didn’t take that role.
&&&
I’d say she’s a nurse-politician… albeit at a petty level.
And, of course, she’s an ESFJ (Myers-Briggs) ‘caregiver’ personality. This drips through her missive published by the Dallas broadsheet.
She’s miscast as an administrator. She should dedicate herself to being a line nurse.
While we all would like to have someone with a feelings dominated personality attend to our wounds — administration and policy are best attended to by someone with a thinking dominated personality.
Her qualifications are crystal clear: two-years of postgraduate applied epidemiology studies.
That puts her largely in the category of numbers crunchers.
Epidemiology is a serious business. It’s also the very field that would inform Kaci that infection can spread like wildfire.
Folks, we have an intense case of cognitive dissonance afflicting Kaci the princess.
I must amend and correct my post.
Apparently, lead contamination of the virgin ore IS a problem in Africa.
G Joubert: “This all puts people like us (i.e., people who, given the stakes, prefer to err on the side of caution when it comes to the public health approach in handling ebola) in a rather tenuous position. In order for us to prove our point there has to be more victims.”
In Neo’s prior Ebola thread, I pointed out – as Neo does here in the OP – that the determining element for quarantine is exposure to certain categories of disease, which include Ebola.
Neither symptom nor infectiousness is a determining element for quarantine. Quarantine, by definition, is precautionary.
Yet the Obama administration, Hickox, pundits, and now J LaVerdiere have replaced the normal standard for quarantine in the public discourse with the standard for isolation, which is symptom and infectiousness based.
Keeping in mind that Ron Klain, a political operative, was appointed as ‘Ebola czar’, Obama’s fundamental misrepresentation of quarantine brings to mind the Democrats’ fundamental misrepresentation of the Gulf War ceasefire: shifting the burden of proof from Iraq proving compliance with the UNSCRs to the US proving Iraqi possession.
The same political trick seems to be at play here. The standard of quarantine, like the standard of compliance for Iraq in the Gulf War ceasefire, is well-established and open source, yet while the other side (Bush admin, governors) conscientiously upholds the operative standard, Dems/Left political operatives like Klain have countered by changing the standard in the public-political discourse, out in the open, using a false premise.
My advice: Don’t accept and stipulate their false premise.
Don’t allow the burden-shifting when talking about the Gulf War ceasefire enforcement. Don’t allow the standard for isolation to replace the standard for quarantine when talking about the state-level Ebola quarantine.
So far we have been very lucky. No more than two or three Ebola patients at one time nationwide in hospitals. Something like ten or twenty could really trigger fear and some crises in specific hospitals. Tracing contacts would take lots of trained workers. Tearing down the quarantine policy for one person is really dumb.
In a related matter Canada has announced a moratorium on new visas from west Africa. Makes our ditherer in chief late to the party. Maybe he feels lucky.
Portland Maine News flash:
“Activist Kaci Hickox killed in tragic cycling accident”
November 1st 2014
Human rights champion Kaci Hickox was tragically struck and killed by a motorist while celebrating her freedom from a controversially imposed quarantine. Her oafish boyfriend, Larry Lunkhead was injured, and remains in critical condition. The accident occurred early in the morning, where ironically, the unnamed motorist was driving to work and was said to be distracted by a billboard saying “Free Kaci Hickox”
So far we have been very lucky
Maybe it isn’t luck. Ebola is a product of its environment, sub-Saharan tropical Africa. Maybe for whatever unknown reason it loses some of its robustness outside of the environment from whence it came. That’s at least something to hope for.
I would be interested in learning the truth about the nature of her work in W Africa. I guess I never envisioned MS Hickox as the heroic, in the trenches, hands-on nurse, so I thought she was relatively low risk. (All bets are off, of course, if the story about the room mate contracting ebola pans out.) All things being equal, she just wasn’t the best choice to test the quarantine powers.
She is mostly guilty of being an insensitive, inconsiderate, pompous @$$. I think that is what put the public’s back up, not fear.
Exasperated: “All things being equal, she just wasn’t the best choice to test the quarantine powers.”
Again, isolation and quarantine are not the same thing. By accepting the standard for isolation as the standard for quarantine, you’re adopting the Dems/Left’s false premise as the controlling frame of the public-political discourse on the issue.
Lay the foundation correctly before arguing your case.
Eric:
I have no idea what you are on about. I wasn’t arguing or making a case; it was an observation.
And, hello, everyone who follows this blog, has been lectured, ad nauseum, on the difference between isolation and quarantine.
Exasperated:
Ad nauseum?
Surely I’ve only said it a couple of times. 🙂
Well, hey, judges declared that carbon dioxide, a naturally-occurring component of Earth’s atmosphere and essential to life as we know it, is a pollutant and therefore subject to government regulation.
So I’m sure they consider themselves competent to rule on viral transmissibility.
Judges: Is there anything they can’t do?
Eric @ 7:14–I see it the same way. Not sure why Exasperated is so peeved. The difference between isolation and quarantine is the key. I haven’t felt lectured and appreciate the clarity.
On AGW we must “do something” – because we just can’t wait to find out if it is really is happening, but on ebola we shouldn’t take common sense precautions? Otherwise, it is amazing what damage has been done to the credibility of the medical community by this nurse, the NYC doctor, CDC, etc. No wonder the public has reacted so strongly in support of quarantine and travel restrictions.
At the BBC, the latest from Doctors Without Borders:
staying in Europe for 21 days — hmm, so no European countries are concerned about this? Wonder how long that will last?
PC madness is a rapidly spreading infectious disease.
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-10-31/story-changes-ebola-now-aerostable-and-can-remain-surfaces-50-days
ZeroHedge has a massive following in the financial set.
The word is getting around.
Exasperated,
Your argument is “All things being equal, she just wasn’t the best choice to test the quarantine powers.”
Why isn’t she?
It’s a 2-part test.
First, Ebola is or isn’t a quarantinable disease.
According to the CDC, by Executive Order, Ebola is a quarantinable disease. Neo’s analysis supports the position that Ebola should be a quarantinable disease.
Second, State does or does not reasonably believe Hickox was exposed to Ebola.
Which is to say, Hickox might actually have been inside an impermeable bubble the entire time she was in Africa and lied about treating Ebola patients. Or she might have never left the US and lied about going to Africa. She might have zero actual chance of becoming symptomatic and infectious with Ebola.
It doesn’t matter whether “she was relatively low risk”. If Ebola is a quarantinable disease and State reasonably believes Hickox was exposed to it, then she’s as qualified as anyone on whom to “test the quarantine powers”.
J LaVerdiere doesn’t appear to be deciding that Hickox was not exposed to Ebola. Rather, he seems to be deciding that Ebola is not a quarantinable disease.
I hope she gets it.
Congrats to him to win the tough case from court.
http://www.forumpakistan.com/
A Pock-ee-stahni forum spam? Just when you think you’ve seen everything, . . .
So what’ll be our November surprise? Or are they saving that up…
A few Ebola posts back, I raised the question about genetics and if race and sex as well as age, general health could impact a person’s response to exposure to the virus. In addition, the timing of exposure, level of viral load and timing of health care intervention will also impact the body’s response to the virus.
This was just published online..
http://www.sciencemag.org/content/early/2014/10/29/science.1259595.full
Granted, it was a test of genetically different mice with a “mouse-adapted” Ebola infection. But there was a range of responses and the conclusion was that “genetic background determines susceptibility to Ebola.”
Previous Ebola epidemics were limited in geographic area and probably, the genetic pool was smaller. With the current outbreak across a larger portion of West Africa with survivors, is there an opportunity for research?
Patient zero in the current outbreak was a 2 year old male. His 4 year old sister, mother and grandmother also died. His father did not. So, was it genetics that the father did not get the disease or die or was it cultural where he did not provide patient care?
One theory behind the fact that we haven’t had a recurrence of Black Death to the extent that it happened in the 14th century is that the survivors has a generative predisposition to either surviving it, or not getting it on the first place.
During the Great Flu Pandemic, a less virulent but closely related strain came through earlier and the usual susceptible people got it–and it have them immunity to the virulent strain that can through later killing so many people.
Does anyone find it odd that virtually no news on the condition of the infected NYC doctor has come out the past 4-5 days? With Duncan (who got progressively worse) and the Dallas nurses (who got progressively better) it seemed like we were getting daily updates on their condition.
If the NYC doctor is doing poorly (or has died), it could be possible that they are suppressing the news until after the elections on Tuesday. Politically, his death would hurt Obama and the Left’s “settled science” arguments.
But then again I might be totally off base and they have released news on his condition.
sorry that this will be long.
hopefully Neo will read it before she cuts it to pieces
i cant summarize talmudic law any more than i can summarize lots of the deep concepts i wish i could discuss without aprobation.
Why are so many in medicine of the faith of Judaism?
While no one will or can give an answer that will be agreeable, I will give you mine, and that could give a bit of insight that I think people are missing here. people have an expectation of what a doctor or nurse should behave like as that is ‘cultural’, progressives hate old productive culture, and so have no such ‘limitations’ (as they see them, as others may call them strengths)
If you ask the average person on the street, why so many are jewish, the most common two answers will be because jews like money (ie doctors are wealthy), and perhaps tradition which probably would compete with the third answer, to make their moms happy. So much for the cultural view of Jews in medicine without regard to what it means to be Jewish. These answers would certainly apply more to the secular Jew, who does not follow their religion, but is Jewish mostly in lineage only.
To the past, and so to the more observant, the reason is clearer, and would be to people as well if they took the time to at least know about others beliefs (and not in the snarky way that progressives like to claim Christians believe the world was created 6000 years ago… a discussion I wont get into for its like talking about the internal combustion engine with people that have no idea how things work!!! They do not bother to take the time to know enough to have a rational discussion of what is going on there, and want to know just enough to make their false point. Much like the captain of the football team makes fun and harasses others in movies to be popular through the commiseration of hatred, except that they wish to hide their hatred, with false erudition)
If one took the time to understand the Talmud, and Talmudic thought, then one may then draw the simple conclusion that they are doctors because god says to them certain things. Its from those things that their behavior becomes expressed, and so, with so many following the same behavior we have grown used to the idea of what behavior a doctor has and have no care to scratch the surface of whys. This is so much so, that those who don’t understand it, apply their own ideas of helping people, but in essence, draw short of the actuality of the believe, because its applied like a dab of paint, not as a way to live.
Kaci is such a person. If asked why she became a nurse, she would say, to help people. But given the progressive spelling of her name, her progressive help does not go beyond the surface expression of it, and its applied like dabs of paint, here and there, not covering the whole of the idea or desire. She has wrapped her ideas in a cocoon of progressive helping thought and purpose, and follows the progressive tradition of no tradition, and making discourse and being a thorn or a squeaky wheel so as to get the oil she wishes, and picks and chooses her way by what she stands to gain in the material world, for she has no spiritual life that exists beyond pretending.
She is stubborn, and suffers a “piety of madness”. A religious conviction outside of a religious belief. She does not know WHY she wanted to help others, or why that desire brought her to nursing, and why she thought nursing or medicine was a place to do that. This more so if one studies the history of medicines darker side, absent these ideas.
First one has to understand the Talmudic view.
1) Leviticus 18 – Ye shall therefore keep my statutes, and my judgments: which if a man do, he shall live in them
That one LIVES the teachings, explains much of the rest. For if someone asked me, why so many jewish people are in medicine, I would say, god told them so. And what if the sacrifice of working with Ebola? “That he shall live by them, and not that he shall die by them.” Babylonian Talmud, Yoma 85b
That is, one does not sacrifice ones own life to save another, as in movies and so on, because to do so, is to commit suicide, a mortal sin to god. God did not make you to die, god made you to live until you die, and be grateful.
Under Talmudic law, there is an obligation to save others. To save a life is to save a world.
2) Leviticus 19: You may not stand idly by your neighbor’s blood
There is a lot of complicated argument around this, and to whether one does so at the risk of ones own life. For those who wish to get into the complicated see: Bava Metzia 62a / Rotzeach 1:14 / Radvaz in Pitchei Teshuva YD 157:15 / Tzitz Eliezer 13:101 / Minchat Yitzchak 6:103
Eventually, what is decided is that the choice to risk your life to save another is your choice. It is permitted to take some risk to save others. See YD 2:174
Halacha requires bystanders to expend time, money and effort to save someone in danger, and it does not matter how far from you they are. And so, there are such things as doctors without borders, and the idea that doctors and nurses take personal risk to help others. This tradition did not come from state law, but from the Talmudic intercourse.
But why bring all this up? Because it shows the failing of a surface cargo cult adaptation of culture, and reveals much as to Kaci and her behavior. She wears the sacrificial idea and tradition as an affectation, not as a core belief and obligation. Even less if she thinks that obligation is sourced from people who think that world was created 6000 years ago and certainly is not scientific about it.
But the substantial belief and Halacha is not some surface affectation. One can not love god and so hate man, and certainly, one cant hate man and so love god. If Kaci is religious, that too is her affectation, the surface customs she has little reason or understanding of why or its sources.
And this is where our collective anger comes from even if we do not understand the source of the law that is being followed that then made so many people take up the chore of medicine to help others, and not so much about wealth, public approval, etc.
If one is to help others, then one is not to harm others. If one is to take upon themselves a risk to do so, that is their choice, but that choice does not enjoin everyone to share your risk without choice.
This is what Kaci is doing. She wants or likes the idea of helping others giving her purpose in life, but because it’s a surface affectation, and she believes comes with a social reward in the material world, she does not know how to apply it as did the people she imitating without knowing it. For they LIVED the law and this gave substance to it. And so, following it, one would not only have an obligation to help those in other places physically and economically, but to also not increase the issue that brings the obligation.
That the other side of this coin of law is also not to cause harm to others, and if one does so despite their trying not to, one also has an obligation to make restitution. That the words she chooses and wishes to express herself are also powerful, for in case one does not realize it, the world was created by words. This is why in Judaism, and Christianity, there is the word, and the word is god.
The people she admires and mimics poorly, do not just follow the law in terms of helping others but also follow other laws and rules in terms of not harming others as well. In fact, this deep thought goes so far as to ask the question, what if the law said I can. That is, what should one do, if one may harm another, and that the law that creates this situation (from the state) allows such to happen for its insufficiency?
Well, even the Sabbath can be broken for such reasons.
“It is a religious precept to desecrate the Sabbath for any person afflicted with an illness that may prove dangerous; he who is zealous is praiseworthy while he who asks questions sheds blood.” Shulhan Arukh, Orah Hayyim 328:2
That if the law said that quarantine was not necessary at all, the law of god would have doctors self quarantine, for they should not do harm either. They should not create the situation where another has an obligation to step in and save another. This is where the first doctor self quarantines, but since he believes it has to do with making others feel safe, the same way he follows the surface of it, he lies to create the surface appearance. He and she understands the idea of having to help others, and that helping others is a goodness, and to their emptiness can give them some surface idea of meaning.
But they do not know the whole of the law, and why it is that way, and what comes with it, and so, they do not act according to that. They would lawyer god if given a chance.
And this is why the people are angry with Kaci and the others. They are so use to the surface expression of behavior to the point that they feel that this defines a doctor, and a nurse, and what they behave like. They do not know the Talmudic thought behind it, or the religious belief that inspired it before it was lucrative, and full of economy. But they know what it looks like, what the rules about it are, and what they have grown to expect from it.
Kaci and the other doctor, are practicing a surface version, for they have found that to do so, is not only to find a bit of meaning, but to also garner a bit of social support and reward. They do not know how far the law goes, for they know no such law and ways, they only know what they saw in the image of what they become a poor copy of. They bristle at those who tell them, you are a doctor, or a nurse, you should act like one in all ways, not pick and choose. But they are not doctors or nurses in the old Judaic Christian sense, they are in the surface cargo cult image sense, which also conflicts with the image of socialistic revolutionary protest.
Like the secular religious person, they believe a personal version, one born out of shallow thought, and selfish rewards. They hold with disdain anything that would actually make their actions a real sacrifice. Oh, many may think that going to Africa is a sacrifice, but it wasn’t, it was a temporary adventure that they hoped would enrich their futures by appearing as such, but when they came home, and they did not do the right thing, it was clear that this is their substance, and that they would not actually give their actions meaning as their sacrifices were no sacrifice at all.
i lack contemporaries to talk with
sorry
lacune:
Not too much on him, but here’s an article saying he was upgraded from serious but stable to stable condition.
It also says that he “is receiving therapies that have been effective in treating Ebola patients at Emory University Hospital in Atlanta and at the Nebraska Medical Center.” In other words, he’s getting some antiviral drugs and/or transfusions from survivors of ebola.
Lee
There are STILL arguments over exactly what the Black Death was.
There are no end of medical accounts from the centuries after the 14th detailing this or that city being re-infected — and more or less wiped out. These accounts also detail how quarantine was promptly used against entire towns.
The Spanish flu is STILL under scientific study and argument. It’s not settled either. It was quite unusual in that it struck down those normally at least risk. There is current speculation that it was killing its victims by a wild over-reaction of the immune response… very much in the manner of someone dying of a bee sting.
These pandemics are very poorly understood. Spanish flu was only sequenced quite recently. It was recovered from graves.
It’s now known to be extremely close to avian flu. (H1N1) So when you see authorities freaking out about avian flu… now you know why.
The only known DNA shift that confers viral immunity is Delta 32, which is a White mutation. It’s scarcely known in any other race. (WHO DNA survey) Its racial disparate impact is politically incorrect, so naturally Wiki slides all around it.
I’ve never seen a single non-White carrier of Delta 32 verified in the literature. Simple variability would make one think that some will show up.
Ancient viral pandemics would explain the presence of Delta 32 in Whites — and the extremely low global fraction of the White population. (Considering the land mass occupied by Whites)
Alternately, Whites practice extreme K selection; whereas most races do not. (K selection does not pencil out for nomads, it’s turf centered.)
Kaci, America’s sweetheart, may have crapped in the nest. It is being reported that her neighbors in Ft. Kent have avoided going to town until the 21 days are up.
Blert–very interesting!
lacune – the doctor’s condition has been upgraded to stable as of an hour ago.
Neo, et al:
To be clear, I have no issue with quarantining returning asymptomatic HCWs and others, who have had even minimal contact with ebola patients, and if this condition applies to Ms Hickox, so be it. I’m even okay with better safe than sorry.
My first post was misconstrued. It had nothing to do with the distinction between quarantine and isolation, but it was addressing public perception and credibility. I think Public Health has to be careful not to appear to be “the little boy who cried wolf” or you create scofflaws and worst case, indifference. I wasn’t saying anything more than I think it would be better to establish Public Health creds with someone who actually represented a clear and present risk, based on exposure. Hence, my post was an echo of earlier comments, speculating over what actual duties were performed in W Africa, by Ms Hickox, and nothing more.
So, speaking of discernment, I hope we can all discern that there is a difference, in risk, posed by someone who actually was in physical contact and proximity to an ebola patient (& detritus) and someone, two or three times removed, sitting at a computer, in an air conditioned office, reviewing statistics for patterns and anomalies. Of course, I don’t know which applies to Ms Hickox, maybe neither. But to me, it makes a difference.
Sorry if this offended anyone.
The dumbing down of America is unsafe.
Quarantine is not for the known sick. It’s for those who may be infected and may become infectious.
Isolation is for those who are known to be sick and infectious.
Both measures are for the safety of the population at large to prevent epidemics.
If Hussein ordered the Leftists to do it, they would most likely do it. But because it’s helpless children and powerless patriots wishing for this, they are told to shut up and die. Because slaves are not the Left’s equals.
All things being equal, she just wasn’t the best choice to test the quarantine powers.
But she is (or was) a CDC employee with a CDC email address, and a CDC “intelligence officer” (2012 graduate of their Epidemic Intelligence Service [EIS] program), and has a lawyer with White House connections. And she just happens, by another coincidence, to be promoting the CDC/administration line on Ebola. She’s not just some random nurse or MSF volunteer, she’s a CDC mouthpiece.
Certainly, it has been suggested that Ms Hickox was a setup. If you consider the timing, it is a bit of a stretch to imagine that it was planned and staged; the effort at quarantine was put in place hastily in response to the reckless doctor in NYC. That is not to say that there weren’t opportunists, poised to take advantage of such a circumstance. In any case, she was a bad choice from that perspective too, given her loutish demeanor. Although they may have succeeded in pushing back legally, I don’t think it was a win, win for the CDC community, in terms of public perception, especially, when you contrast this episode to the prudence and care that other volunteers have taken upon return, voluntarily.
Here’s an interview with Kaci Hickox in today’s Portland Press Herald newspaper, in which she says she was doing hands-on work with Ebola patients — she says she spent her last night in Sierra Leone trying to save the life of a 10-year-old girl suffering from the disease.
Ann:
Thanks for the link. That’s the sort of thing I was referring to.
There’s certainly enough to criticize Kaci Hickox for, and I have no hesitation to do it. But it’s always best to stick to the facts.
Thanks for this link, Ann, it answers the questions that have troubled me.
It is clear that, in this case, Maine’s effort to restrict Ms Hickox’s public movements were appropriate and it justifies even greater cynicism toward the CDC. I hope it won’t be a win, win for them, so I intend to pass this link along to other blogs.
I, for one, don’t understand her inconsiderate and reckless attitude or her self righteous bluster; a Walter Mitty hero complex, perhaps.
Ann…
It’s an interesting article.
It clearly shows that Kaci hasn’t a CLUE as to the ethics of quarantine.
For her, it’s all about herself — and people in her (emotional) tribe. (nurses and doctors)
Cognitive dissonance is also evident when she tells all that there was really nothing she could do for ebola victims.
In which case, why bring ebola to America?
Why fly to west Africa to just hold hands?
(Tele-emoting is now possible thanks to the WWW.)
As an expert in epidemiology, she MUST know how disease propagates…
Yet’ still she blathers on.
Her dream is that — in six months time — health professionals can return from west Africa — and ebola — without causing a stir.
Nothing could possibly be further from the truth. Ebola continues to expand its menace.
Prancing through the courts is not going to change reality in the world.
Only a vaccine offers any positive prospects.
Sending more Westerners to west Africa — to offer palliative care — is totally counter-productive. They are not saving anyone — while running up a fearsome tab — and drastically raising the prospects for ebola out breaks in the West.
Ebola kills even the non-afflicted: it shuts down what health care we can successfully apply.
It damns a given hospital with contamination: no-one comes for treatment. (except ebola victims)
While a single ebola victim draws off the talent and resources needed by hundreds, some of whom will die as an indirect result of ebola brought into the West.
Sometimes it pays to know your limitations. In the case at hand: we can’t handle ebola. It really is that simple.
The survival of less than a handful of ebola victims is contra-indicative of what must happen when the virus scales up.
BTW, she’s also telling us that she’s only half way through her risk window.
HALF!
AFAIK, the typical victim doesn’t show any signs for a week or more. Even two weeks doesn’t mean you’re out of the woods.
For some reason the very nature of exponential viral growth seems to elude the best and the brightest.
From what I’ve read, most Ebola infections manifest in 8-10 days. The 21 days everyone talks about only catches infections with a 95% confidence level. Even 42 days is only a 98% confidence level.
How in the heck can anyone — let alone ‘they’ know that?
blert: “Her dream is that – in six months time – health professionals can return from west Africa – and ebola – without causing a stir.”
Ebola is stir-causing.
The way to achieve Hickox’s dream is Ebola quarantine.
There should be no controversy or stigma for the quarantine.
Quarantine is a longstanding conventional medical measure that is upheld in the CDC’s own protocol as effective. Ebola is designated by the CDC as a quarantinable disease. The CDC normally defers to and cooperates with state and local authorities on quarantine.
In other words, state-level Ebola quarantine for anyone exposed to a quarantinable disease is normal and uncontroversial. The quarantine doesn’t cause stigma. As it did for the immigrants at Ellis Island, quarantine clears stigma (at least the stigma of carrying overseas disease into America).
Yet people like Hickox are responsible for attaching stigma to the quarantine and then claiming they’re fighting against a controversy they invented.
Recent studies conducted in West Africa have demonstrated that 95% of confirmed cases have an incubation period in the range of 1 to 21 days; 98% have an incubation period that falls within the 1 to 42 day interval. WHO is therefore confident that detection of no new cases, with active surveillance in place, throughout this 42-day period means that an Ebola outbreak is indeed over.
Expecting slaves to think for themselves… there’s everyone’s problem right here, right now.
The Left’s zombies aren’t expected to consider anything, let alone various medical issues requiring critical and independent thought. They are expected to do only one thing.
Obey their Authority, aka the Messiah or another God-Emperor.
Papaya
How in heck can anyone know when they were infected?
The ONLY thing that anyone can get a handle on — and it’s problematic — is when they think they’ve been last exposed.
Once ebola breaks containment, even that becomes impossible.
The only way to start the clock is to leave ebolandia all together — enter quarantine for 40 days — and pray for a null result.
The WHO confidence level is irrelevant. The issue is HOW to gain containment, HOW to craft a vaccine, etc.
Once ebola vanishes from the Earth — or even a piece of it — no-one will need the WHO to acknowledge a circumstance it did absolutely nothing to eventuate.
If you’re not aware: the very reason that ebola is on the rampage is due to the follies and politics of the WHO!
Their experts SAT ON THE MATTER — for months — while it exploded up from mere handfuls of victims into this fulsome epidemic — well on its way to becoming a world-wide pandemic.
The WHO is all politics, all of the time. If they’d done right, we’d not even be sweating ebola –and it would’ve been quashed months ago.
Instead, the WHO pressed the snooze button. (African branches)