Anders Breivik: sane and sentenced
The Norwegian court has found mass murderer and political terrorist Anders Breivik both guilty and sane, and sentenced him to the maximum.
Unfortunately, that’s only 21 years. The good news is that the sentence can be extended if he is found to still be a danger to society after that time.
Seems like a cockamamie system to me. In its race to distance itself from what it sees as vengeful, violent societies such as the US, and because its murder rate is already low, Norway feels it can afford to be kinder and gentler—and to have 21 years as the maximum penalty for the cold-blooded slaughter of 77 people.
These quotes in response to the verdict leapt out at me:
“He [Breivik] is getting what he deserves,” said Alexandra Peltre, 18, whom Breivik shot in the thigh on Utoeya. “This is karma striking back at him. I do not care if he is insane or not, as long as he gets the punishment that he deserves.”…”This is what we hoped for,” said Mette Yvonne Larsen, who represented some of those affected in court.
“This is justice served and they are happy it’s over and will never have to see him again.”
“What he deserves” and “justice served.” I wouldn’t think the paltry punishment fits the crime at all. But the Norwegians generally seem satisfied and they are the ones most affected.
I have already written at some length about the Norwegian system of law and order. Here’s an excerpt:
To us in this country it seems nearly preposterous that a nation could function with a police force and a penal system with so few teeth. But until now, it did not seem so strange to most Norwegians. Their kinder, gentler system of law and order was a pleasant philosophical choice that [has] cost them very little, and of which they [are] quite proud. In a largely homogeneous country, and with a long tradition of an orderly and law-abiding citizenry, things had mostly gone well since the death penalty had been abolished in 1902 for peacetime use and for wartime use in 1979.
This 2010 article about Norwegian prisons is enough to make one weep with envy of the prisoners. Wide-screen TVs in each IKEA-esque room, scenic bucolic settings, guards without guns. As Charles Lane, who calls the system “gentle justice,” writes, “The Norwegian Correctional Service’s Website makes no mention of punishment, but does refer to ”˜services’ to which inmates are ”˜entitled.’”
But note the tiny number of convicts, just 3,300 in a country of about 5 million inhabitants. Lane quotes a prison warden in Norway as saying, “If you treat people badly, they will behave badly. Anyone can be a citizen if we treat them well, respect them, and give them challenges and demands.”
Most Norwegians thus far have had no compelling reason to believe that this was false. Their society has continued to be remarkably peaceful, with an extremely low rate of murder, and despite increasing theft and rape rates during the last few years, both attributed largely to immigrants.
It is as though the modern Norwegian system had evolved in the absence of natural predators, and never really developed defenses against them. No doubt Breivik was familiar with the vulnerabilities of Norway’s police and population, and knew they would be unarmed.
Breivik was also certain that he would not be executed or even given a life sentence, and that he’d be allowed a bully pulpit for his views during the trial. And with this verdict of “sane,” he gets to celebrate that another wish of his has been granted, because “his biggest concern was being declared insane, a fate he said would be ‘worse than death.'”
I happen to think that Breivik was in fact legally sane. But the length of the sentence seems a travesty and an insult to those who died. Although I cannot think of a punishment a civilized society would accept that would fit Breivik’s crime, this one most assuredly does not.
I always like the fantasy solution that Stavro Arrgolus made up and we all laughed about…
you may know him better as George Carlin…
it’s a commentary in itself that jokes are larger than what i usually post and some have complained about… jokes are shorter than prose, yet we have not the room for jokes of much substance either…
There is an astonishing amount of self policing that is done in Norway (take a look at the funny series LillyHammer on Netflix). Your income is pubished by the tax authorities and you are scrutinized by your neighbors.
Most Americans would rapidly go crazy under such a system, but in a small country like Norway people who don’t fit the mold become sea captains or the like and leave town.
‘The good news is that the sentence can be extended if he is found to still be a danger to society after that time.’
This allows someone to be put away forever essentially without trial. Not good news at all but it happens wherever and whenever the punishment for the most serious crimes falls below ‘ life imprisonment without parole.’
Steve D: I am in complete agreement that it is not good news in the legal sense. That’s why I call it a “cockamamie system.”
It is good news merely in the sense that Breivik won’t necessarily get out after 21 years. That’s all.
Germany does the same thing: relatively short sentences with the possibility of extending incarcerationtime if the person is deemed a danger. I did read last week that Germans are now admitting to increased violence within prisons, so I guess the effects of immigrant gangs are now being felt. I admit to a bit of Schadenfreude after years of hearing criticism of our unenelightened judicial system. I’m the last to say US justice is perfect, but I would at least like some recognition that the problems we have to solve are difficult.
“I cannot think of a punishment a civilized society would accept that would fit Breivik’s crime”
A civilized society would recognize reason and logic.
When someone unjustifiably kills, i.e. murders another person, they unilaterally abrogate their victims right to life. In doing so they forfeit their own right to life.
“As we judge so shall we be judged” succinctly expresses the concept of harmony and balance; that as we do onto others so should it be done onto us, for we, through our own actions choose the standard to be applied to ourselves.
Thus, the only ‘just’ societal response is to honor the murder’s choice, by applying to them the same judgement and action they exercised and, in the exact manner that they choose to murder.
Karma must be balanced for justice to be served.
Any other ‘punishment’ or consequence a society chooses for murder is an injustice to the victims, both dead and living.
What amends can the murderer make to the life lost?
Love without ‘just consequence’ is unconditional forgiveness.
Unconditional forgiveness without just consequence dishonors both the sacrifice imposed upon the victim(s) and the choice that the murderer has made.
How can a civilized society simultaneously dishonor the standard the murderer has chosen and offend the victim further… and serve justice? It cannot and thus our dissatisfaction.
It is our own lack of clarity, that creates the squeamishness we flee from.
The murderer has taken another person’s life and in doing that, they have forfeited their own.
Geoffrey Britain: I think you misunderstood my point.
I was trying to suggest that the gravity of the crime would indicate that a commensurate punishment might be something much worse than executing him. And those are the sorts of things that a civilized society would not accept.
Also, for example, that Breivik could only be executed once, not 77 times.
Well, actually, that’s not strictly true. He could be “almost” executed 76 times and then the blade could go just a wee bit deeper the 77th time. (With time off for healing between “almost executions” as well.)
The Chinese had something like this going during the height of their civilization. It was called “Slow Slicing.” Seemed to get the job done and worked as entertainment at the same time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slow_slicing#History
” “What he deserves” and “justice served.” I wouldn’t think the paltry punishment fits the crime at all. But the Norwegians generally seem satisfied and they are the ones most affected.”
Well I suppose a cynic might say – not me of course since I am a humanist as well as an idealist – but a cynic, might say that modern Norwegians know best the value of a modern Norwegian life. That’s about 3 and a quarter months per homicide.
A cynic might say that these socialist youth victims, play a kind of role in the secularized passion play that structures Norwegians’ moral sensibilities:
‘After all, life goes on. We are family, even the killers. The government and its services will always be there for us. No one is indispensable or irreplaceable. We don’t say that we Norwegians are fungible of course, but we all die anyway, and in the meantime there are many satisfying socially approved group distractions to engage us until such time as the darkness closes in for good. Do … you care for butter on your bread? ‘
Sorry, I apologize. That quote was made up. Perhaps I went overboard and the nonchalance was offensive.
Here’s what the NYT has real Norwegians saying:
“Some relatives of the victims welcomed the verdict.
“Now we won’t hear about him for quite a while. Now we can have peace and quiet,” said Per Balch Soerensen, whose daughter was among those killed in the shooting. “He doesn’t mean anything to me, he is just air,” he told Denmark’s TV2, according to The Associated Press.
Tore Sinding Bekkedal, a survivor of the attack on Utoya, said: “I am relieved to see this verdict. The temptation for people to fob him off as a madman has gone. It would have been difficult to unite the concept of insanity with the level of detail in his planning.”
Bjorn Magnus Jacobsen, another Utoya survivor, said: “Today we heard that he was sane. In the long run that does not matter. What matters now is that we need to take extremism seriously.”
Pass the herring please …
Capital punishment does not deter murder and is extremely costly under our system of appeal after appeal after appeal. IMO, after a rigorous trial those convicted of extreme crimes (1st degree murder, rape, child abuse) get one appeal. If the appeal confirms the guilty verdict the punishment for heinous crimes is solitary confinement for life with no chance of parole.
When a society decides to be passive, it has chosen to take these kinds of things. My guess is there is a lot more crime than is reported by a huge margin. People simply don’t bother if their stuff goes missing, if raped, whatever. It is all part of the happy is simple, what is yours is mine, mentality. Excessively nice, some would say. And if you follow the roots of the word nice you… might fully agree. They are a very nice people.
LWOP is going to be, may already be, promoted as inhumane and not to be allowed.
Breivek’s punishment and crime in my mind are light years apart, but I was not in the least surprised. I would have been stunned if he got anything more.
You hit the nail on the head Neo – isolated and homogeneous society. My job has taken me to Norway often over the last 10 years and I’ve made a few friends there. In my experience, They’re generally in agreement with one another on all the social issues that produce bitter divisions in our society. I don’t know if it’s genetic or a common history, or both, but things we debate as being either earned or ‘rights’, right, wrong, or unthinkable, are simply not of much interest to discuss, except to point out that we (Americans) have a lot to learn.
The attitude they express about treatment of criminals is everywhere in there society- treating people well will get you the same in return. And it’s mostly true for them I guess.
Utopian concepts like profit margins being less important than doing “what should be nice for the client”, A good working environment is what motivates people to want to work, and developing things nobody will pay for, for the sake of doing them are commonplace there and just nutty here. The list of things that we would consider demostrably untrue or foreign is endless; but for them it’s another story. The things they disagree about in their political debates don’t divide them to any great degree- most of us wouldn’t even notice the distinctions.
A somewhat related example of how the homogeneos aspect is valid was mentioned to me a few times from different people- Their dislike for our involvement in Iraq and the middle east is not out of any sense of outrage on the behalf of the inhabitants, or a deep commitment to peace, but rather that our actions are directly affecting them in the form of immigrants. They don’t appreciate us making a bunch of refugees they have to deal with.
Norwegian law offers a pretty nice lifestyle to its citizens, and they pay an enormous amount of personal income toward taxes to sustain it, and not everyone likes the idea of opening up the benefits to folks whose interests and customs are not shared. It will be interesting to see if immigration and other factors change their way of thinking.
The Norwegian elites don’t want a martyr. More Europeans understand the consequences of importing individuals who resist assimilation, and who would instead impose their own cultural standards on the indigenous people. Not only do they understand, but there are growing protests to being displaced by immigrants, legal and illegal, and especially those who seek to reestablish what they left behind.
In order to maintain the illusion of a viable society, and provide or at least promise instant gratification without perceived consequences, those elites cannot afford to expose the dysfunctional behaviors they have promoted in the native population, nor the purpose of inviting individuals with incompatible outlooks on life. The Norwegians, and Europeans generally, are being marginalized. Unfortunately, as they voluntarily embrace behaviors which in progressive measure constitute evolutionary dysfunction, they are ultimately responsible for their own fate.
“If you treat people badly, they will behave badly. Anyone can be a citizen if we treat them well, respect them, and give them challenges and demands.”
And conversely.
Sure, “gentle justice” works in a sleepy little outfit with a totally homogeneous population that has a long tradition of obeying the law (once it shook off that nasty Viking business).
But import a significant proportion of feral Third World types (your choice of what variety), wait a generation, and then get back to me on how that “gentle justice” is working out.
Easy to fence.
I’ve got two places that are even easier to fence: NY and SF.
And they’re already chock-a-block with the candidates Carlin cited, so we save on transportation costs. Why louse up four perfectly good states?
From Wikipedia:
“As of 2012, an official study shows that 86.2% of the total population are Ethnic Norwegians and more than 660 000 individuals (13,2%) are migrants and their descendants (110 000 second generation migrants born in Norway).
Of these 660 000 immigrants and their descendants:
335 000 (51%) have a Western background (Australia, North America, Europe)
325 000 (49%) have a non-Western background (Turkey,Morocco,Iraq,Somalia,Pakistan,Iran).”
Don Carlos, my point precisely. So, so far we’re talking about approximately 55,000 second generation immigrants from Third World nations. Pffft. That’s below the critical mass needed to support a fulminant criminal/ terrorist/ communist contingent.
“Alright, next group: sex criminals. Completely incurable, you got to lock them up. You could outlaw religion and in most cities sex crimes would disappear in a couple of generations. But we don’t have time for rational solutions! Much easier to fence off another rectangular state. ”
Humor is best when it pokes fun at an uncomfortable truth. Is he implying that no atheists or agnostics are sex criminals? If so, he sounds ignorant, or bigoted, not humorous.
The one thing that has always baffled me about this case is that he was able to roam that island at will, shooting people in the head.
Didn’t ANYONE even TRY to fight back? The accounts said no. “The absence of natural predators” indeed.
The Vikings would weep with rage.
This sentence will draw more many from tax payer imagine how much cost if extend to life sentence?
Other point I am not familiar with legal system, was it easy give him life sentence close the all doors for appeal?
“LoL” only serious —
Wait until Islam arrives in Norway. I personally suspect the only reason they haven’t taken over the place already is it’s so #$%$#^ cold that the camel jockeys (yes, Camel Jockeys. This is not a “PC dominant” discussion) have no interest in living there and making their lives the hell they’re working on everywhere else in Europe.
It’s an unhidden secret that the incidence of Rape in nations from Norway to France (and probably Italy, but I hadn’t hear about that far south) is VASTLY on the rise, and that an attractive young European woman isn’t safe on the streets in many places, not necessarily even ones directly dominated by Islamics. ANYwhee can be a snatching ground.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LqOydLrpqGE
http://gatesofvienna.blogspot.com/2012/05/muslim-rape-liberalleft-complicity.html
http://www.iris.org.il/blog/archives/757-Pan-European-Arab-Muslim-Gang-Rape-Epidemic.html
Occam:
What has always struck me about the Breivik massacre is that it can ( he was found not insane) be seen as a John Brown-type response to the dominance of the elite, small Norwegian ruling class over the Norwegian sheeple as a whole. The attack was against the young princelings of priviledge (happily ensconced on a private island that, I think, the ruling Party owns), that Breivik understood would ascend to power. Islamic immigration to Norway, though nascent, is of course sanctioned by its Ruling Class.
Why not just let him go? He could be exiled to another country. He wouldn’t last long, and the Norweigan tax payers would save a bundle.
About 100 days of prison for each murder (77 victims, 21 years). And the victims were mostly in their teens? Let me think… he wiped out about 5000 years worth of future life for those victims at a cost of 21 years. That’s something like a 238:1 ratio. Incredible.
Those crime rates will change dramatically if they keep accepting large numbers of “asian” (ie. muslim) immigrants.