Looking back: 9/11 coverage
The 9/11 anniversary is now over for another year. To mark the day, I went to YouTube and watched videos of the original coverage. Although I’d seen some of it before, I realized that a great deal of it was new to me.
That’s because—as I noted in a previous post—on 9/11 I was staying at the home of friends who didn’t have a TV. It wasn’t until later in the afternoon that I got to one, and so I never saw the original early coverage. Now that I’ve seen it, I’m struck by how long it took the newscasters to figure out what might be happening that day.
At first they thought it was an accident, which is somewhat understandable. But even after the second plane hit, when the fact of terrorism should have been unmistakable, they seemed reluctant to mention it or credit it for the dreadful events that were transpiring. On CNN, for example, the leading theory was that something was wrong with the general navigational system that was sending planes on a beeline for the World Trade Center.
This idea should have been preposterous even at the time. Not that navigational systems can’t go wrong. But to be flawed in a manner that caused two planes to go for a particular target? And on such a gloriously clear day, wouldn’t the pilots have seen the towers and avoided them, no matter what the systems were telling them?
It’s easy to criticize now, knowing what we know. In a way, it’s astounding that the newspeople were able to keep their wits about them enough to make any coherent statements at all; I probably could not have done so. But that’s what they’re paid for, to be professionals. And for the most part they managed to keep on an even keel despite the shock of what they were seeing.
But they demonstrated a curious naivete about terrorism. Perhaps some of it was a result of their hesitation to cast blame without knowing for certain, in case they were later found to be in error. And some of it was probably a failure to appreciate the depth of the hatred that fueled terrorism, as well as an underestimation of the cleverness and creativity terrorists can muster. Probably the relative ineptness of the earlier 1993 attempt to bring down the WTC towers lulled them—and many others—into a false sense of security.
Another thing that struck me now is that, in the YouTube comments section for some of the videos of the day, there are quite a few teenagers who were young children at the time of 9/11. Nine years is long enough for a child to almost grow up, long enough to go from nine years old to eighteen. A number of them remark that although they were too young back then to understand what was happening, now they finally do.
And it struck me that those who are even younger will have grown up with 9/11 always having been in the background as a given. Much as my generation didn’t know a pre-nuclear era, they will have no memory of a pre-9/11 world. Beautiful clear days on which airplanes, piloted by malevolent killers, come out of the blue (literally) to slam into buildings and cause huge bursts of orange flame that kill thousands of people and collapse some of the world’s tallest buildings, will not be shocking to them. It will be the way things are.
My daughter was born 3 days after 9-11. she turns 9 tomorrow. I am sad to say that she gets it. She has asked questions and we have answered them as honestly as you can to a 9 year old. I guess you can say that she has essentially accepted it as a fact of life.
I don’t have much hate in my heart and I don’t teach it to my child. But I hate those in Islam who preach this. I try to be a critical thinker and a fair minded person but ten years later I come back to hate.
I was born after the fall of the Berlin Wall, so Communism and nuclear Holocaust have never been a potentiality for me, but every time I see a plane in the sky or hear a low-flying jet, I always get that little shiver of fear, knowing what they could do. (And when I was deciding whether or not to live in a high-rise dorm building, what ultimately convinced me that it would be fine was that any terrorist attack in Boston would more likely target the Prudential Building or the John Hancock Tower.)
Every generation has its ingrained fears, and I suppose this is mine.
Neo: “But even after the second plane hit, when the fact of terrorism should have been unmistakable, they seemed reluctant to mention it or credit it for the dreadful events that were transpiring. “
That was then. Now people like Bloomberg automatically assume the culprit might be somebody opposed to Obamacare.
My son was 7 months old on 9/11/01. I remember standing beside his crib watching him sleep, and thinking that the world he would grow up in would be very different from the world I had grown up in. Our age of innocence was over.
I hate the Islamists, but in a fairly abstract way, the way one hates crime or oppression.
But the American liberals who have chosen to support Islamist terror — I hate them with the fire of an exploding star. They have perverted America’s ideals of tolerance and freedom into surrender to intolerance and hamstringing efforts to fight terror. They would cheerfully hand over the people of Iraq and Afghanistan to torture and murder at the hands of regimes as bad as anything in history.
And they congratulate themselves for their cowardice, ignorance, and petty partisan sniping.
The objective of Islam is the destruction and political domination of Western Civilization and the world. Were it not for the forces of Charles Martel (Battle of Tours, 732) and Jan Sobieski (Battle of Vienna, 1683), Islam would have succeeded. Islam is not a religion of peace. It is a death cult with a long history of bloody borders. Having failed to destroy the west from the outside, the focus is on the inside with home grown terrorists and high fertility.
To Trimegistus
Thank you for that. You’ve expressed a significant part of my feelings towards Islam and segments of the American left perfectly. But my hate is not so abstract.
I was working at an airport when it happened. Gates were locked and we were escorted out. I got home at 11am. My mother was watching all the news and what she said has always stuck with me, “They murdered the pilots because they knew that under pain of death the pilots would not fly those planes into buildings.” The video of people standing near the facade, contemplating whether to jump or burn I only saw recently, like that of “falling man”.
Just to add my “where was I” story, I was in high school and so I had a grotesque fascination with the more macabre news coverage (as many teens tend to have). It is harder for me as an adult than it was as a teen.
Over time they are releasing the footage that they thought was too much too close to the event.
for every image you see, there are literally hundreds that just sit in storage.
But they demonstrated a curious naivete about terrorism…. It often seems to me that much of liberalism is… not to put too fine a point on it… willful stupidity.
I really don’t think you can blame the media… as a Bush administration official said at the time, this wasn’t a failure of preparedness but a failure of imagination.
There had not been a major terrorist attack in the US or Europe for decades before 9/11. Now we’ve had 9/11, Madrid, London, the burning Muslim suburbs of European cities… and it seems naive not to think of terror.
But back then… who was talking seriously about widespread, mainstream Islamic hatred of the West? Who was taking the radical imams seriously?
Mark: I had a related discussion with the person who told me about 9/11 (there was no TV where I was). As he described to me what had happened, he added that the pilots had flown the planes into the buildings. I immediately said, “No, they must have been murdered. No pilot would ever do that.”
One did not need to know the specific nature of the 9/11 perpetrators to know that a great evil was afoot. I got it when the 2nd plane hit; I am sometimes slow but I got it. We watched the 2nd hit at work, and after the stupefaction of horror abated a bit, I said, “The world will never be the same.”
But some things just do not change. I despise the MSM with a profound passion. The dolts!They deign to tell us what to think. A pox on all their houses.
…I’m struck by how long it took the newscasters to figure out what might be happening that day….they demonstrated a curious naivete about terrorism. Perhaps some of it was a result of their hesitation to cast blame without knowing for certain, in case they were later found to be in error. And some of it was probably a failure to appreciate the depth of the hatred that fueled terrorism, as well as an underestimation of the cleverness and creativity terrorists can muster.
This passage would remain correct if written in the present tense.
The apposite question is why. Why do the MSM suppress information that would galvanize American response (doomed office workers jumping from buildings), while showcasing that that enervates it (images of Muslims with panties on their heads, a waste of perfectly good panties)?
It’s a rhetorical question, obviously.
Me, too. On my more forgiving days.
All in a day’s work of agitation.
I dated someone who was Mexican-American, and he said that he watched the Spanish stations because they showed the footage that the MSM wasn’t showing that day. He said you could even hear the bodies hitting the pavement.
A pox on our media.
i was in wilmington nc that day with a friend from nyc whose father was a superior court judge in lower manhatten. he was waiting in the hotel lobby to take me to see me off that morning. i walked down to watch the second airplane crash. my folks were military and somehow i immediately “knew” that this was an act of war by someone. needless to say i didn’t return my rental car that day and drove all the way to dallas. very strange to drive all that way and not see a single plane in the sky. the radio press was onto the islamic terror thing rather quickly. they must not have been so circumspect regarding the perps but i did’t watch tv that day
As one who was in New York City (midtown) that day I was lucky enough to be on one of the first trains out of Penn Station.
I will never forget the train ride home; at one stop, about 30 miles south of the city, one could still see the smoke from ground zero and it look like a fire just down the block, not something 30 miles away.
And, my eyes will forever get moist when I remember the train conductor announcing (and my memory hears his voice perfectly) “this train will be making ALL local stops, please make all seats available as this will be a crowded train.” He voice was cracking and then breaking off as he ended with, “as we all know what has happened today, if you are on this train, just thank God that you are alive”
The crowded, not even standing room, train ride home was silent.
The next morning is when “reality” hit me. I arrived at my usual 5:00 am and for the first time I was not the first car in the commuter parking lot. There were 26 cars (yes, I counted them!) still there from the day before. That means 26 people whom I may have sat next to or may have exchanged pleasantries with did not make it home that previous night.
Ben David said : “There had not been a major terrorist attack in the US or Europe for decades before 9/11.”
Only if you do not count the 1993 bombing of the World Trade Center.
I was eight years old when we were hit at Pearl Harbor.69 years ago and I still remember it like yesterday. The whole family sitting around the radio and listening in the most sacred silence and shock. We knew our lives would change and they did.
I never expected to have another memory like that one, but 9/11 makes two. More than enough for a lifetime. Although I’m an old retired codger, my life has changed. My old airline went bankrupt… with subsequent loss of medical insurance and pension reductions.
I knew the left would arise to oppose defending our country. I try to combat that in any small way I can. Don’t know how many years I have left, but I’ll continue to work, as long as I have breath, to convince all who will listen that we are at war and it is a war we must win.
NO Major Terrorist attacks?
Really?
Gee, I guess the CHRISTIAN TERRORIST attacks on the Federal Building in OK. City and the Olympics in Atlanta Ga. don’t count!
“I guess the CHRISTIAN TERRORIST attacks on the Federal Building in OK. City and the Olympics in Atlanta Ga. don’t count!”
Yeah… An agnostic during his adult life only becomes a “Christian” when you want someone to blame.
Because he was an agnostic.
A man who recites the words of the poem “Invictus” (“I’m the master of my fate: I’m the captain of my soul.”) instead of a sincere “I’m sorry” don’t a Christian make.
And also, a nutcase who goes on killing at an Atlanta park for ANY REASON does not a Christian make.
Now, take it and stuff it!!
Hi J.J.
I was 7 and living in Cerro De Pasco, Peru at the time. (in a valley at 14,000 + ft)
And we too heard on the radio only ours was a “short wave” one which we listened to news and entertainment from the US. We came back to the US ASAP so my dad could enlist in the military.
Going thur the Panama Canal was really exciting for me as there was all kinds of artillery, Navy ships, barrage balloons, air craft and soldiers. They came on our ship & took everyone’s cameras. (which were given back when we sailed from Panama to Havna, Cuba on the way to New York.)
Our ship was from a neutral country) had huge flags painted on the sides of it so we would not get torpedoed by the Germans during our transit from the Panama Canal and New York.
They had long poles with bright lights on them to light up these flags at night. One day, we had the hell scared out of us when a U.S. sub surfaced to ask if we had seen any Nazi subs. (When a sub surfaces, you have NO clue whose side they are on.)
As Dad was a summa cum laude graduate from Harvard with degrees in both mining engineering and geology, they said he should not join the military as his skills where more needed in for the US war effort in the US.
NOW TO THIS “MR FRANK”
I am so sick and tired of Christians saying Islam is not a religion of peace when the facts prove the Christians have absolutely NO ROOM to talk about other religions
being ones of peace.
This 75 year old Agnostic Atheist Activist sez: THE ONLY “Religion of Peace” I know of IS the Buddhist religion.
FYI Mr. Frank, there ARE Christian TERRORISTS and the first modern Terrorists where the Jews of the Irgun.
Christians seem to forget about all the Crusades which they started, all of the Various Inquisitions in which the vast majority of the victims were women and girls. The MANY, MANY, MANY wars between
Catholic & Protestants & others which went of for hundreds of years and still go on in Ireland.
Or the Bible riots between Catholics and Protestants in the US. And the Witch Trails WHICH STILL GO ON! The last one I know of was in 2006 in Oklahoma where Christian town officials and citizens attempted to railroad an Atheist family into being guilty of things they did not do.
I doubt he either realizes, or cares, MOST Americans who are Atheists are SO AFRAID of what you “loving” CHRISTIANS will do the them, they do not make it public knowledge the ARE Atheists!
And some Atheists are even too afraid to inform their family and close friends they find the Christian religion to be the total con job it is!
Something which we Millions and Millions and Millions of FORMER Christians KNOW IS A Fact.
Religion is MYTH Information!
Don’t get excited, Newton! You see, Neil C. Reinhardt lives on a different planet than us. On his planet, McVeigh set off his bomb screaming “Jesus is Great.” And the poor unfortunates who flew those planes into the World Trade Center and the Pentagon and the Pennsylvania soil were only trying to further international understanding. And they went to their deaths singing “All we are saying, is give peace a chance.”
Neil’s planet is, of course, a paradise. Why, did you know that on Neil’s planet, a guy who never ran as much as a lemonade stand is eminently qualified to be Chief Executive of the United States? Yep, that’s the way things are on Neil’s planet!
A CHRISTIAN CHILD, IS ANYONE WHO BELIEVES IN THE CHRISTIAN GOD!
PERIOD! END OF STORY!
Anyone who actually knows what is in the Bible KNOWS that, ASIDE from the god of the Christians Killing & killinng & killing some more He-She-It also instructs it’s believers to KILL and KILL and KILL!
Don’t Blame me! I did not write what is in the Bible, I only report on its contents!
What a Christian is and what is in the Bible is something the MILLIONS & MILLIONS & MILLIONS of Americans who are all FORMER
Christians and who are now Atheists, KNOW!
You see Child, we have been where you are!
So go play with the rest of the Programmed Religious Robots and leave the thinking to those of us who are intelligent, rational and logical enough to know the only reason you do not believe in many gods is because you were not raised by Hindus.
Those who want to know the facts about our Founding Fathers and the founding of the United States, should read what is in the link below.
Researched and written by R.P. Nettelhorst who is an Extremely Fair and Knowledgeable Christian Historian / Minister.
http://www.theology.edu/journal/volume2/ushistor.htm
Of course context and ideological agenda are everything, ie. my personal favorite “terrorists” were the American revolutionaries around 1776, and which is similarly the reason I “harbor” a personal soft spot for the Irgun… But there is a definitive nuance associated with the deliberate targeting solely of some innocent civilian or group, ie 9/11, and as well, the style (ie Beslan) which accompanies it, which begins to separate and clarify the nature of these related moral questions. Then of course there is the significant issue of historical revisionism in the service of some ideological agenda. Perhaps everyone rationalizes their group activities in the context of some kind of self-interest, ie. Hiroshima, or Dresden. But from my point of view, the cursory distinction in the context of truly deep seated moral judgement, has more to do with the propensity for purely gratuitous cruelty, in combination with brazen historical revisionism.
For example, and in the “context” of “Looking back: 9/11 coverage” :
http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/manhattan/imam_pal_is_nut_gPPtzFWEtyaUlE3u4P4ckI
I suppose you are going to tell me Eric Robert Rudolph is not a Christian? How about Ted Bundy? Tell me about Waco and Jones Town.
Anyone who says their favorite “terrorists” were the American revolutionaries around 1776 has no clue what terrorist is. And a “soft spot for the Irgun” who blew up men, women and children? (who were mostly all Christians)
Are YOU SICK?
MY world is the same one inhabited by Atheists like Pat Tillman, Mark Twain, Jody Foster, Mozart, Beethoven, Edison, Curie, Lance Armstrong, Chris Reeve, Carl Sagen and Walt Disney to name a very, very, very few of the more famous of us.
MY World is one I have put my physical well being and my life on the line for Black Civil Rights and for many others MANY times. Those times does not even include my over six years of service in the National Guard and/or Active Army Reserves or my over three years on active duty mostly as a Paratrooper in the 101st Airborne.
My world is one where, as a lifeguard I have saved many lives. One where I gave 37 pints of blood and would have given a lot more only a little thing called Cancer prevented me from doing so.
And CHILDREN, like it or not, ATHEISTS ARE either THE LEADERS, or AMONG THE LEADERS in Nearly EVERY single field there is!
Here, EDUCATE THYSELVES
http://www.celebatheists.com/
http://www.jmarkgilbert.com/atheists.html
http://machineslikeus.com/famous-atheists.html
Neil C. Reinhardt if i had to guess i’d say the global warmer nutcase at the discovery channel last week has seemed to put you in overdrive in the protection of your screwed up world view. Most of us got past that phase not long ater accepting life comes with adult responsibilities.
As for the inhabitants of our modern media, i’ve grown to detest the incompetence that has allowed a profession be filled with such profoundly incompetent little conformist.
Ted Bundy a Chirstian?
I can only hope that if I make it to your age, Mr. Reinhardt, I still retain some function brain cells. Because the alternative, after reading your posts, is truly a frightening prospect.
While, in a sense, it’s maybe or even probably all (ultimately) just a bunch of rocks banging around in space (to me, too), that’s not really (even remotely) the important (nor a particularly profound) critical issue concerning man’s day to day life on this planet; and though not related to Neo’s thread here, either, here is a timely “good natured” article on the apparent early a.m. change in topic….
http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/proving-the-existence-of-god/?singlepage=true
You write, “. . . Beautiful clear days on which airplanes, piloted by malevolent killers, come out of the blue (literally) to slam into buildings and cause huge bursts of orange flame that kill thousands of people and collapse some of the world’s tallest buildings, will not be shocking to them. It will be the way things are.”
Too true. I lived and worked in the Middle East and Europe for much of the decades of the 80’s and 90’s. My work took me to Beirut, Kuwait, Athens, Kabul, Damascus, Sarajevo, Baghada, etc. You get the picture and I hope will understand and forgive that as I watched the planes smash into the World Trade Center on TV I could only turn away and think, ” Welcome to my world, America.” I’m not proud of that and am deeply saddened that a whole generation knows the world as I know it. I went looking for trouble and adventure and if I found it, it was on me. Not so the children of America.
Trimegistus American liberals who have chosen to support Islamist terror – I hate them with the fire of an exploding star. They have perverted America’s ideals of tolerance and freedom into surrender to intolerance and hamstringing efforts to fight terror. They would cheerfully hand over the people of Iraq and Afghanistan to torture and murder at the hands of regimes as bad as anything in history.
And they congratulate themselves for their cowardice, ignorance, and petty partisan sniping.
Well said!!
Neo says “In a way, it’s astounding that the newspeople were able to keep their wits about them enough to make any coherent statements at all.”
It’s not all that difficult to “keep your wits” when you only have half the allotment (of wits) of normal people.
I hate, really hate, to defend journos. There’s so little to work with. You know, like a public defender defending a guy who molested a child in front of six cops, two judges, and a passle of parents.
But here goes: To say anything about terror is a huge step, from which backing off would be immeasurably difficult, if proven to be untrue.
Various domestic terrorists, Rudolph and McVeigh come to mind, did one-man ops, except for McVeigh whose defense attorney wrote about it in a book entitled “And Others Unknown”. But, anyway, simple, straightforward ops whose obstacles could be worked out without time pressure or need for coordination.
To say, after the second plane hit, that it was terror would implicitly mean Muslims and their organization and money. And if you were wrong….
Your posting got me to go back to YouTube and watch footage from and about 9/11. Horrific – the people jumping. What’s odd are the number of well spoken well dressed well educated people espousing nonsense drivel about one conspiracy or another. How do these people cross a busy street alive – their grip on common sense reality seems so tenuous.
I suppose you are going to tell me Eric Robert Rudolph is not a Christian? How about Ted Bundy? Tell me about Waco and Jones Town
Sure. It’s easy… its the same as you being a communist, but professing to be something else to the public view.
Lets take each of your “examples” of Christian and empirical understanding of the world.
Ted Bundy: Ted Bundy is a sociopath/psychopath, and so he has no real belief system founded in any sense of guilt or morals of outcome other than what would favor him. Said simply, Ted’s belief system is that Ted believes in Ted and little else, and rationalizations, if he bothers will twist this way.
Since Bundy was not sub-clinical, and he was willing to engage his fantasies, his life and what’s within and around it is orchestrated. This is something sociopaths do, especially those who are on the border of being sub-clinical.
They make choices in terms of orchestrating the thoughts of others. This detachment can be learned, so one can fall into the trap of orchestrating rather than experiencing. Such people become numb, and end up doing things that sometimes wake them up, others are comfortable with that, and Ted was one of them.
This makes Ted a predator, and his favorite prey was other human beings as only they could provide what he wanted.
AS with progressives and communists, and socialists, and anarchists, and people like you, your desire is to move people by other means than honest discourse. That is, you seek to USE their goodness, their ideas of right and wrong, to enflame them, and then direct that. You’re a shadow of Ted, in which your fantasies, unlike him, require some cooperation throughout, and so you end up frustrated and more desperate to shock others, rather than orchestration. You are so ineffectual that you hammer your victims, rather than finesse what you want.
Ted had to create a life and image which would help him get what he wanted in life, which was a supply of victims to meet his hypersexual needs. Even for a serial killer, he was quite extreme. But if one takes a look at speck in prison, you can clearly see the needs and how they are fulfilled are quite disconnected.
Like progressives, communists, socialists, serial killers prey on their fellow men to get what they want. This makes Ted a predator of people, a sexual sadistic Fabian wolf in sheep’s clothing.
Here is the most interesting part to someone like me. That you who wish to also predator people, are using a predator as a false example to induce emotional angst which you hope to direct in some way (to the church).
To turn believers using a false purity argument
Capitalism is not perfect, it’s not pure, like the myth of socialism
Christianity as a doctrine is not pure, like the myth of communism
Etc.
The ‘contamination’ methodology of social control…
Can’t you do better than that?
Ted used Christianity as a cloak to make him less visible to good people who trust.
[You and he share the same victim base]
His use of Christianity says more about the goodness of Christians and their reputation than it does the opposite (at least to a thinking person).
That is, without the positive goodness cache of Christianity, he would have no need to select that as his cover. You think that he could have also selected Buddhism, but that would have less facilitated his needs, unless he was in another place, like Thailand. He selected what would work best and was easiest, and would cause the fewest questions.
Maximal protection for minimal effort.
[if he claimed to be a Satanist, would that have the same outcome?]
The SAME is true of Dennis Rader the MDK killer who worked for a church; the same is true of MANY such predators.
Eric Robert Rudolph also did the same. That is, an organization with an open door and no requirements of entry other than self proclamation is going to have lots of members who are not there for the sanctity of Sunday worship.
To read what Rudolph himself says, is to read a leftist progressive socialist etc. missive.
In the summer of 1996, the world converged upon Atlanta for the Olympic Games. Multinational corporations spent billions of dollars, and Washington organized an army of security to protect these best of all games. The plan was to force the cancellation of the Games, or at least create a state of insecurity to empty the streets around the venues and thereby eat into the vast amounts of money invested.
The desire to make the Olympics political is a left thing. Hatred of multinationals is a left thing. The idea of bombing innocents to make change is a decidedly leftist thing.
The ONLY reason the left abandoned him was that he was not really with them given his bombing of abortion. That is, the left does not believe that one of their own might not accept their whole program hook line and sinker…
Religion doesn’t put him in the rightist camp, any more than reverend Wright, or the KGB that was or became the Russian Orthodox Church. Being against abortion is the only thing you have… and that’s not enough…
Your last two things on the list are the most interesting.
WACO ended up beng a case where the state murdered people for their beliefs. Go through the DETAILS and alternative film cuts and you will note that it was the state doing what states do as far as they are concerned. I wont go into all the details, but its not considered a bright spot. (neither was Ruby Ridge, which given classical effort you should have thrown on the list)
Part II will be on Jim Jones…
It’s a GOOD thing you brought him up..
Get ready to see how ignorant you are, and how that makes you step in cow patties
At least when your talking with those not as ignorant as you are!!!!!!!!!!!
Tell me about Waco and Jones Town
Your bringing up Jones Town shows that you’re blind and do not reason in what you say.
I guess you never wondered why Jones town is seldom brought up to indict religion extremism. That is, if you’re going to spout something as proof of the “not left” (presumed right), you should actually know what you’re referring to.
Jim Jones and Jones Town is a big example of left liberal communism and its use/abuse of formal social structures to create an extreme end.
Lets point out the things that you as a useful idiot miss…
[and remember the KGB and the Russian Orthodox Church]
From Wiki:
James Warren “Jim” Jones (May 13, 1931 — November 18, 1978) was the founder and leader of the Peoples Temple, which is best known for the November 18, 1978 death of more than 900 Temple members in Jonestown, Guyana along with the deaths of five other people at a nearby airstrip and in Georgetown, Guyana.
What did he call his church? Like communist Howard Zinn, he codes his church with “peoples”, as in peoples republic of china, a peoples history of the US… etc.
Before you (and others) spout I see communists everywhere, do note that Jim Jones joined the communist party in 1951.
From wiki:
In 1951, Jones became a member of the Communist Party USA, and began attending meetings and rallies in Indianapolis. Jones became flustered with harassment he received during the McCarthy Hearings, particularly regarding an event he attended with his mother focusing on Paul Robeson after which she was harassed by the FBI in front of her co-workers for attending. He also became frustrated with what he perceived to be ostracism of open communists in the United States, especially during the trial of Julius and Ethel Rosenberg. This frustration, among other things, provoked a seminal moment for Jones in which he asked himself “how can I demonstrate my Marxism? The thought was, infiltrate the church.”
An interesting aside is that I was recently arguing economics with someone online, they then brought up an economist as proof of Ronald Reagan’s harm to the US. Funny thing is that, that person, didn’t know that the economist was one of the Rosenberg’s children. think he has a bone to pick with capitalism?
Just as he, your knowledge of history and its abuse as use, relies on others being as ignorant as you are, or pretend to be.
I am so glad you picked this. something your superiors and others who are fellow travelers and not useful idiots would NOT have made this mistake.
JIM JONES is a classic example of left communist socialist infiltration and use of other organizations and the trust of people against them, and a clear example of how far such things can be taken!!!!!!!!
You don’t even have to go far to learn this. wiki is full of the information and there is no way to get around it.
Jim Jones was a communist socialist liberal progressive sitting firmly as far left as you can sit!!!!!!!!!!! (a CPUSA member)
You want to use him as an example of the failing of Christianity. But as a failing its only that Christianity had not denuded itself of atheists, communists, homosexuals, social justice reformers, liberation theologians, in its ranks.
Jones witnessed a faith-healing service at the Seventh Day Baptist Church.[12] He observed that it attracted people and their money and concluded that, with financial resources from such healings, he could help accomplish his social goals
Is that why someone like you would join something? that it gives them more personal selfish gain? I think so. your methods and side you picked and your desire to be a player shows that you’re of this ilk. If not, then your stupid, which is not any less harmful to everyone around you (as you are big mouth stupid, not quiet stupid).
The tragedy at Jonestown resulted in the greatest single loss of American civilian life in a non-natural disaster, prior to the events of September 11, 2001. At the airstrip, Temple members murdered, among others, Congressman Leo Ryan, the only Congressman murdered in the line of duty in United States history.
Largest man made disaster in US history prior to 9/11
And BOTH events have connections to the communists…
In case you didn’t notice, Jones Town was a commune. Commune, communist, get it?
Although some descriptions of the Peoples Temple emphasize Jones’s autocratic control over Temple operation, in actuality, the Temple possessed a complex leadership structure with decision-making power unevenly dispersed among its members. However, within that structure, Temple members were subjected unwittingly and gradually to sophisticated mind control and behavior modification techniques borrowed from post-revolutionary China and North Korea. The Temple brightly defined psychological borders over which “enemies”, such as “traitors” to the Temple, crossed at their own peril.
So he is not an example of Christianity, he is an example of the lengths and depraved depths the left will go to to get their way. Even your use of Christianity to poison Christianity embodies that lack of respect. No?
Jones was a voracious reader as a child and studied Joseph Stalin, Karl Marx, Mahatma Gandhi and Adolf Hitler carefully, noting each of their strengths and weaknesses.
History is the laboratory of action, and so he learned from the best con artists of misery how to control people. Same as today, they know the library, the key history, and the copy. Its what your doing, but you don’t know where the method your copying is from.
Jones married nurse Marceline Baldwin in 1949, and moved to Bloomington, Indiana. Jones attended Indiana University at Bloomington, where a speech by Eleanor Roosevelt about the plight of African Americans impressed him. Jones’ sympathetic statements about communism offended Marceline’s grandmother
Inspired by progressive communist lesbian Eleanor…
Jones moved away from the American Communist Party and Maoists when ACP members and Mao Zedong became critical of some of the policies of former Soviet leader Joseph Stalin.
By then the churches name had changed and become fixed as the PEOPLES temple.
And just so you know ilk attracts and is complicit with ilk until its too costly:
In 1960, Indianapolis Democratic Mayor Charles Boswell appointed Jones as a director of the Human Rights Commission. Jones ignored Boswell’s advice to keep a low profile, finding new outlets for his views on local radio and television programs When the mayor and other commissioners asked Jones to curtail his public actions, Jones resisted and was wildly cheered at a meeting of the NAACP and Urban League when he yelled for his audience to be more militant, and climaxed with “Let my people go!”
Same groups that are alive and involved today… no?
League was another of those coded words like Progressive, Peoples, etc..
It allows those who support it to know who to give to, and those who cover for it to deny it, and others to be confused and believe what they want rather than the truth.
After swastikas were painted on the homes of two African American families, Jones personally walked the neighborhood comforting African Americans and counseling white families not to move, in order to prevent white flight.
jones is classical… want to bet who was drawing the swastikas? Notice that the women in college claiming a noose, was caught putting it up herself. The homes bombed in the south, turned out to be bombed by communists to create racial hate (like today). same with their bombing in brooklyn to put the Jewish population and blacks at odds, something still a problem today as the reason or start of the feude is long forgotten (and refreshed… like the murder of rosenbaum, and a few days the death of his killer).
Jones wrote to American Nazi leaders and then leaked their responses to the media.
Your religious example is a very active wacky communist….
When Jones was accidentally placed in the black ward of a hospital after a collapse in 1961, he refused to be moved and began to make the beds, and empty the bed pans, of black patients.[20] Political pressures resulting from Jones’ actions caused hospital officials to desegregate the wards
Lets see… reads ghandi, hitler, mao, stalin, and other communist leaders…. And his way to power and money and such is to be a race huckster, use the church, etc.
Great example!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
He even has a connection to the RAINBOW PC crowd
Jim and Marceline Jones adopted several children of at least partial non-Caucasian ancestry; he referred to the clan as his “rainbow family,”[21] and stated: “Integration is a more personal thing with me now. It’s a question of my son’s future.”[22] That comported with Jones’ portrayal of the Temple overall as a “rainbow family.”
Reminds me of Angelina Jolie, and other left liberal famous people… using their children and family and living their ideological game. the part that is lost on our inquisitive left liberal friend in thrall to the propaganda given to him.
Jones had long been critical of the United States’ opposition to communist leader Kim Il-Sung’s 1950 invasion of South Korea, calling it the “war of liberation” and stating that “the south is a living example of all that socialism in the north has overcome.”
Yes… the south overcame what the north didn’t… poverty, despotism, starvation, etc.
Glad to see your on the winning side (that’s sarcasm in case its lost on you)
Lew, Suzanne and Stephanie were Korean kids he adopted, Agnes was american indian related. Stephan Gandhi Jones was their only biological child (which I think was born after the Jonestown incident). Two years later, in 1961, the Joneses became the first white couple in Indiana to adopt a black child, James Warren Jones, Jr. [they also adopted a white boy named Tim]
Marceline claimed to be spat on as she walked…
After Jones’ return to Indiana from Brazil, in 1965, Jones claimed that the world would be engulfed in a nuclear war on July 15, 1967, that would then create a new socialist Eden on earth, and that the Temple must move to Northern California for safety
This war is less and less crazy sounding every day,… hear about the Russians and a Turk caught near a power plant in Georgia?
While Jones always spoke of the social gospel’s virtues, before the late 1960s Jones chose to conceal that his gospel was actually communism.
Social justice is really communism. Fancy that…
Now lets ask our pondering ignorant person
was Jim a Christian, or an atheist communist using the church?
Here let me help him:
By the spring of 1976, Jones began openly admitting even to outsiders that he was an atheist
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
By the early 1970s, Jones began deriding traditional Christianity as “fly away religion,” rejecting the Bible as being white men’s’ justification to subordinate women and subjugate people of color and stating that it spoke of a “Sky God” who was no God at all. Jones authored a booklet titled “The Letter Killeth,” criticizing the King James Bible
Odd form of Christian, no?
But here comes the part that makes you such a funny person to those who are not ignorant. And makes the seriousness of those that believe what you do, completely silly.
ones also began preaching that he was the reincarnation of Jesus of Nazareth, Mahatma Gandhi, Buddha, Vladimir Lenin, and Father Divine. In the documentary Jonestown: The Life and Death of Peoples Temple, former Temple member Hue Fortson, Jr. quoted Jones as saying, “What you need to believe in is what you can see…If you see me as your friend, I’ll be your friend. As you see me as your father, I’ll be your father, for those of you that don’t have a father…If you see me as your savior, I’ll be your savior. If you see me as your God, I’ll be your God.”
Wow… he believed he was OBAMA… ïŠ
Despite the Temple’s fear that the IRS was investigating its religious tax exemption, by 1977 Marceline Jones admitted to the New York Times that, as early as age 18 when he watched his then idol Mao Zedong overthrow the Chinese government, Jim Jones realized that the way to achieve social change through Marxism in the United States was to mobilize people through religion. She stated that “Jim used religion to try to get some people out of the opiate of religion,” and had slammed the Bible on the table yelling “I’ve got to destroy this paper idol!”[36] In one sermon, Jones said that, “You’re gonna help yourself, or you’ll get no help! There’s only one hope of glory; that’s within you! Nobody’s gonna come out of the sky! There’s no heaven up there! We’ll have to make heaven down here!”
And so he made a liberal left nihilists communal utopia…
And, HE is the reason why us “non left” say “you sir have had a drink of the Kool aid”
It’s a commentary that communism is the kool aid…
And fools and idiots and sociopaths follow it for different reasons.
Fools because they don’t know better, and trust the wrong people
Idiots, like you, because your lazy and find it easier to be used than to be free and find your own way, you have no originality in your originality.
The sociopaths, and others are in it to use the fools and the idiots…
If you were in Jonestown, you would have loved the left liberal anti god rhetoric
You would have loved Jim, for doing what marx told him and chaning the world
And like you drink the kool aid today, you would have gladly drank the kool aid then
You can read the rest of it all at only these two links:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Jones
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peoples_Temple
I doubt you will.. standing alone is scary, drinking coolaid and trusting those using you is a lot more fun… you don’t get more ego stroking
“In a way, it’s astounding that the newspeople were able to keep their wits about them enough to make any coherent statements at all.”
not really
doctors in an emergency room do the same thing.
in fact, reporters die because they forget they are alive and they forget reality in persuit.
Your best long piece, Artfldgr. Very fine. Waco and Ruby Ridge were real eye-openers for me.
JJ at 12:10am: We must all do what we can, however small or large, against evil.
“Wow… he believed he was OBAMA… Jim Jones realized that the way to achieve social change through Marxism in the United States was to mobilize people through religion. She stated that “Jim used religion to try to get some people out of the opiate of religion,” and had slammed the Bible on the table yelling…”
If not the best, certainly one of your best, Art. The similarities can’t help but remind one of the good and former (?) muslim “Reverend” Wright, his church, and famous protege… Sometimes there is more money, fame, and political opportunity which can be had by posing as a Roman, when in Rome… There’s always a way to rationalize deception in the service of a “cause”; a fundamental ethical facade paraded for affect, in the service of your favorite ideological icon, instead of the other way around.
TO CONTINUE MY PREVIOUS POST
In MY world, we use things like Facts, Logic, Knowledge, Science, Physics, etc., and critical thinking skills rather than faith, dogma, and belief in childish superstitions like religion to form our world views.
In my World, we know the major reason, the number ONE reason which cause nearly all religious people to be religious in the first place, is their parents raised them (PROGRAMMED) them to be and to believe in whatever religion they are.
So IF YOUR parents were Christians, the odds are around 100% YOU are one as well.
For as the Catholic Church says, and all religions do:
“Give me a child until the age of SIX and they are are MINE Forever”
This why the Japanese once believed their Emperor was a “Living GOD” It IS
many German members of the Hitler Youth pledged their lives to Hitler.
It IS why people like Eric Robert Rudolph bombed health clinics, Gay Bars and the Olympics in Atlanta, Ga, It IS why there are various Christian Terrorist Groups in the United States NOW today!
And, it IS why Moslems fly airplanes into
building and strap bombs to their bodies so the can blow up and injure or kill men, women, children & even babies! It IS why
there was a 9-11 and why we will be AT WAR with them for MANY, MANY years to come!
And there is about a 100% possibility it IS why YOU Christians attack me instead of providing any facts and/or logic to prove me wrong. (Which you can not as they do not, just like your little make believe god, exist.)
———————-
“You say you’re supposed to be nice to the Episcopalians and the Presbyterians and the Methodists and this, that, and the other thing. Nonsense. I don’t have to be nice to the spirit of the Antichrist.”
Pat Robertson, The 700 Club, January 14, 1991
“The theory that you should always treat the religious convictions of other people with respect finds no support in the Gospels.”
Arnold Lunn (1888-1974), British author
———————-
Nearly ALL, that’s every single one religious people ARE whatever religion their parents PROGRAMMED them into believe
Had you been raised by Christians, you WOULD BE a Christian! Raised by Jews, You WOULD be a Jew. Were you raised by Moslems, like it or not, YOU WOULD BE A MOSLEM.
AND, had you been raised by Hindu parents, you would NOT only BE a Hindu, you WOULD believe in MANY Gods!
That is MANY gods with NO more proof ANY of them exist than there is for any other of the 25,000 gods humans have invented, named and worshipped so far!
NONE of whom HAVE EVER existed anywhere else other than IN THE MINDS of their believers.They do not exist in the real world!
The ONLY power any god has is what ever the actions of those who believe in them accomplish.
No god which is caring, just, kind, fair and compassionate as well as being an ALL Knowing as well as ALL Powerful God would ever create a world lie ours.
One which has Tsunamis, Earthquakes, Floods, Landslides. Fires, Volcanoes, Tornados, Hurricanes, Avalanches and Plagues. Plus living things which have TO KILL other living things to live.
Of Create Creatures (including humans) which torment, torture and murder others for enjoyment and/or gain.
Thus, the god of the Christians is either NOT Real OR, is NOT as described. OR HE – SHE -IT is a Totally Incompetent god and as such, most certainly not worthy of worship!
In my world, we know as we age and gain in both experience and knowledge, many millions and millions of us have left your out dated superstitious myth behind on the dust pile of history. And we know many Millions more are, and will be joining us
We also know a careful reading of the Bible from cover to cover has caused more than a few former Christians to become Atheists.
(FYI This is also what caused Thomas Jefferson to say, “The Christian God is Cruel, Capricious, Vindictive & Un Just”)
We know while there are many, many Millions of Former Christians who have left your myth behind, very, very, very few people raised as Atheists have become religious.
Some examples of former Christians are H. Ruth Green & Madlyn Murray O’Hair. As well as FORMER Christian music composer. youth leader and former fundamentalist minister Dan Barker.
http://ffrf.org/
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/dan_barker/
And former minister John Loftus who writes this blog
http://www.debunkingchristianity.blogspot.com/
Both Barker and Loftus have probably forgotten more about the Christian religion than anyone reading this will ever know!
In MY world, we are not only intelligent enough to know what the definitions of the words,”Believe” “Know” “Agnostic” and “Atheist” we also have the ability to use logic and rational thought. This allows us to know a person can not only be, as I am an “Agnostic Atheist” they can also be, an “Agnostic Christian?
As I am sure you are far too dense to be able to comprehend how this is possible I shall edify you.
As there is not sufficient evidence to cause me to “Believe” in a god, I AM an Atheist. And as there is NO way for me to KNOW if there is some god or not, I AM ALSO an Agnostic.
I once met an actual “Thinking Christian” who informed me he was an Agnostic Christian. He said this because while he
BELIEVED in the Christian religion and he Christian god, there was NO WAY for him to KNOW if such a god existed.
We FORMER Christians speak from a base of facts, knowledge, experience, logic and freedom of thought while you poor Programmed Religious Robots have no clue you ever were programmed much less you still are, speak from faith, dogma
and unsupported belief!
Neil, I was born a Catholic (to lapsed Catholics), and raised in the faith. At 15 I became an atheist. I was a very serious, reasoned one at that. However, being both a student of history and a member of Mensa, I never really developed the opinions that you espoused.
After a few emotionally reactive years, I lost my animosity towards religious people.
At the age of 40, I became a Christian – a devout Catholic at that. My whole family is comprised of atheists, agnostics, and my sister is a pagan, to boot. We all respect the beliefs of others.
But if it makes you happy to insult everyone here, feel free.
I vacillate between atheism and agnosticism, but I never developed an animosity toward religious believers. The “holier than thou” atheists give us all a bad name. Sort of like smokers who flick their butts out the car window.
Pretending atheism can’t be a religion is like pretending bald can’t be a hair style.
Neil C. Reinhardt,
Let me combine two of your points, to show the fallacy and thought process disorder you exhibit.
Your first point (A false call to rationality):
In MY world, we use things like Facts, Logic, Knowledge, Science, Physics, etc., and critical thinking skills rather than faith, dogma, and belief in childish superstitions like religion to form our world views.
So how do you know the knowledge you have is valid? Faith?
How do you know that Marxism isn’t dogma?
And without calling assumptive, how do you know that religion is false?
[Faith in those who say what you want to hear so that resonance indicated validity?]
But let’s continue
In my World, we know the major reason, the number ONE reason which cause nearly all religious people to be religious in the first place, is their parents raised them (PROGRAMMED) them to be and to believe in whatever religion they are.
So IF YOUR parents were Christians, the odds are around 100% YOU are one as well.
ANYONE with a brain not made of cow dung and a moments thought would see the fallacy of this point. IE. That no new religions can exist, including atheism and no old religions would die out. it completely ignores facts of people questioning their religion and moving to others, or moving away entirely.
Your first paragraph was a lie, a preload to tell us that we should think of what inanities you’re going to spout next come from facts, logic, knowledge, science, physics, etc.
Now, lets move to reality.
For as the Catholic Church says, and all religions do: “Give me a child until the age of SIX and they are are MINE Forever”
That’s not what the quote is… and you have not detailed whom your referring to.
Francis Xavier said “Give me a child until he is seven and I will give you the man,”
However you’re referring to the quote in the 1500s, and the people who have used that quote in the modern era were not the practitioners of catholic graces. The key is to see the form of the original and compare it to yours…
In more modern places, you get this same saying being used by the communists and progressives. wn.com/Religion_and_Science_Bertrand_Russell_11_of_14
No where is this phrase used in modern times except by collectivists…
That is, the Jesuits said it in the 1500s… // The ones that laid claim to that and the necessity of using it on the public in total in the 1900s, and 2000s, are the communists, progressives, etc. // This is why Bella Dodd, head of the CPUSA, became head of the NEA, the teachers union.
To your attempting to stir up BS over a phrase muttered by a group that is 500 years old, while ignoring the more recent utterances by mass murdering despots, is telling.
So to your ideas of religion being the dominant forces of evil, I will reply with a quote.
“The pope? How many divisions does he have?”. – Stalin
The outcomes of the two groups is also telling. The Jesuits may have made catholic, but by far they ended up making the public literate which lifted them out of aristocratic and real imperialist slavery. That is, the Jesuits did what the communists later would do for their own personal human selfish goals.
Where the Jesuits made schools, and taught… the soviets invaded, destroyed, and forced children to be taken from parents to be educated this way.
the next sentences will show how disordered your thinking is.
This why the Japanese once believed their Emperor was a “Living GOD” It IS
many German members of the Hitler Youth pledged their lives to Hitler.
For a person who claims that they are on the side of logic, facts, science, etc…
you sure don’t know much at all.
The commonality here for discussion is something called “Devine right of kings”, which spans human cultures when they are aristocratic, oligarchical, progressive, comnmunist, etc. IE, when they have as their goal the subjugation of the majority by a minority.
This is something that shows your ignorance out like a big lighthouse in a fog. WWI and WWII were the last days of formal aristocracy. Aristocracy did not die with the French revolution, it was transferred to a new age aristocracy… something which the industrial revolution and American (English) revolutions destroyed. That is, your 180 degrees turned about in thinking your opposing aristocracy, but instead your helping make it, for what is aristocracy than a consensus around a few people to take care of things?
Anyway. Englands rulers, Chinas rulers, and such despots take the position of Devine right. The Japanese emperor was descendent from Amaterasu, which is no different than the western kings of Europe claiming lineage to Jesus or the Islamics claiming lineage to Mohamed.
Your mixing up things in a way that shows you have no concept of this…
Hitler being a progressive socialist, hated Christianity, and Judaism. You know VERY little of the Hitler youth and what the people actually lived like in Germany. I would take some time to read Hilmar von Campe, and others to get an idea of things.
You have no idea what it is to live in such regime. You speak with big conflated imagery objects which you hope to rile emotions to be the instigator of a pack, but you have no idea what it is to not have the freedom to do such, or to not have the freedom to be tolerated and talked to openly about your ideas!!!!
Want to hear children pledging to Obama?
How about this video of similar Hitlerian pledges to Obama by famous people to influence others to make similar pledges to the MAN Obama over the constitution?
Since it was shown in a elementary school, I wonder what you think given your commentary?
Demi Moore and Ashton Kutcher’s I Pledge Video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=51kAw4OTlA0
Produced by Oprah Winfrey’s Harpo Productions
Given your concern, why not listen to this pyongang mix?
Here is the original… let me know if these elementary school children are for god, or are for a atheist socialist state, like Hitler, Stalin, etc..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WtGrp5MbzAI
here it is being compared to the same practices of communist states
in this case, north korea…
and here are some students, a youth brigade for obama
Obama Youth Brigade March in Formation
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wOtGr1JFCnE&feature=related
ALL follow the religion of socialism and communism in which the great prophet marx is god!!! Do note that these men without religion murdered more people in horrible ways than ALL religions combined in human history!!!!!!!!!!
So what do you think of MODERN practitioners, given that the same ideas 500 years ago have you riled? Why are you not upset at your side for doing this?
Does this make logical sense to oppose that which is 500 years dead, and then be ignorant of that which is happening around you?
It IS why people like Eric Robert Rudolph bombed health clinics, Gay Bars and the Olympics in Atlanta, Ga, It IS why there are various Christian Terrorist Groups in the United States NOW today!
The reason Eric Robert Rudolph did this was not Christianity. It was because he was and is as unstable as you are!!! that both of you think you can make something productive happen by incitement, the ONLY difference between you two (That we know), is that your choice of venue and method… though both of you share the same irrationality.
You do not realize that you need MORE faith to not believe in god as one needs to believe!!!
It’s a joke since you have no knowledge, science, or logical proof for or against the existence, OTHER Than your FAITH that he doesn’t… and the only reason you have that is that it gives you permissions (in your mind) to hurt and attack people and twist things you have no knowledge of!!!!!!!!!!
Here is your “logic” or rather nonLogic
Christians have no bar to entry for admission, or determination
Eric Robert Rudolf proclaims he is a Christian
He is nuts, and goes out and hurts innocent people
Reinhardt, then claims that its was Christianity that did it
Absolving Rudolf of responsibility, as he is not to blame for his actions
Christianity must be stopped…
Islamics have a bar to entry for admission, and determination
Jihadis have a higher bar
Mohamedd Atta proclaims his devout belief in the prophecies of a pederast
He is nuts and goes out and hurts innocent people
Left claims that Atta is to blame and Islam is not responsible
Islam is to be promotes as tolerant
Christians leave Christianity all the time, but is a logical impossibility in Reinhardt world. Islamic leave Islam all the time, anther impossibility. An impossibility that other islamics murder those that have left.
The term Renegade means a Christian who turns to Islam…
So one wonders where the knowledge, science, and logic in Reinhardt is..
Then one realizes that when he says “my world” he is talking about the deluded and confounded, and confused world in his head, in which he claims is organized around principals and facts that are sound… in his world.
In the real world, the world we allshare and in which we all have common purchase, the facts, logic, and such is all different.
Why is this so?
Because the progressives have had Reinhardt since he was younger than 7 and so, he has been indoctrinated… and inoculated, to believe what is done to him, and was done, is done to everyone, and hat these alternatives are equivalent to what has been done to him.
What a messed up jumble Reinhardt is… completely ineffective until a master tells him what to think, including if that missive is telling him to think and spout that his condition is all our condition.
Funny. Sad…
And there is about a 100% possibility it IS why YOU Christians attack me instead of providing any facts and/or logic to prove me wrong. (Which you can not as they do not, just like your little make believe god, exist.)
And here is another logical fallacy…
WE did not attack you… you came here spouting communist atheist nihilism and then are upset we didn’t fall down prostrate to your wisdom given to you by the prophet marx and which you have infinite faith is right (in self contradiction).
I HAVE given you facts to prove you were wrong!
All you did was ignore them… that is, when you hit a bump in your delusion, and cognitive dissonance raises its head, your brain goes to sleep.
YOU said jim jones killed so many for religion. I provided facts from Jones himself that said he was an atheist communist left liberal progressive using the church.
Ignoring that and moving on as if it wasn’t said is not attacking you, nor is this debate.
You LOST the point, and until you either concede or refute, you lose the rest of it.
That’s how debate works…
Your really not well sir… and at the core of it, that’s why you have a ‘social disease’. No its not being gay, gay is a cover for your social disease! That is, by being gay, and angry, you get to pass off your mental illness and persecution complex to that as a reason.
When the truth is that you’re screwed up, and there are screwed up gay men, and screwed up heterosexuals, except the heterosexuals cant hide their mental disease in their sexual orientation and then pretend to be ‘normal’.
You quote pat Robertson and Arnold lunn, as if they are the leaders of communism and are all part of a monomaniacal idea like communism.
Do you realize that most people don’t know who Arnold Lunn is?
Do you realize that the majority of the population didn’t think Robertson was all there?
Do you understand that the quote by Robertson sought to pitch different branches of ideology against each other?
Do you actually think at all, or do you just parrot things constantly and claim sentience?
There is no sense even continuing with addressing the rest of your delusional rant.
YOUR WORLD is screwed up sir..
Some day, come join us in the real world…
By the way, there are some really great answers to the pedantic and childish theological spouting you make.
No god which is caring, just, kind, fair and compassionate as well as being an ALL Knowing as well as ALL Powerful God would ever create a world lie ours.
All your saying is that your better than god, and that if you were god, you would make it differently, and you would do so by not having logic, science, consistent reality. you would become like a god of yore.. twiddling in the affairs and lives of people to make outcomes, and make capricious reality.
And then you go on, and show your complete and total ignorance after telling us that since you would be a better god, the Christian god is no good.
Ever wonder why we would consider a god not in your image?
One which has Tsunamis, Earthquakes, Floods, Landslides. Fires, Volcanoes, Tornados, Hurricanes, Avalanches and Plagues. Plus living things which have TO KILL other living things to live.
So how would this reality work?
I would really love to hear it.
You would just create it from whole cloth?
And I suppose that it would work by magic and chaos, and not principal
Your concept of religion is quite childish… since your idea of a reality created by a god that you envision, is a cartoon… you would create a cartoon world… one that is isolated from a concordant reality… one in which you would twiddle constantly…
Your world has no principals… since its gravity as a physics principal that gives you landslides, fires, volcanoes, tornadoes, hurricanes, avalanches…
So your reality, your “my world” would not have gravity?
Or would it be so flat there is no motion?
I guess there would be no planets… since a planet would nto be static…
And not being static, gravity would again cause things to happen.
Thus, the god of the Christians is either NOT Real OR, is NOT as described. OR HE – SHE -IT is a Totally Incompetent god and as such, most certainly not worthy of worship!
Really?
Your so stupid…
I will refute this one just once.
GOD DIDN’T MAKE THE UNIVERSE FOR YOU!
That is the part you refuse to get you entitlement junky…
You don’t even know Christian thought at all, nor Buddhist, Taoist, Shinto, etc..
Here is the part YOU don’t get…
Will your beings in the universe you create better than god, have free will?
If not, then your perfect world is heaven, with angels.
The reality of god before creation… That is, theologically speaking,
your perfect utopian thing is heaven before creation
Its funny that you think yourself above god, because that is what any son who comes to his own would think over his father (until later when he sees how this was how it is)!!!
So why did god not give his children every entitlement and gift without earning it?
Because, unlike you and your family, he didn’t want some spoiled brat with an inflated sense of entitlement and self importance (like you have), spoiled to the core (as you show), disrespectful of others ideas and beliefs (clearly displayed, forgetting who are his brothers and sisters and equal under god), who would USE religion as a weapon (like your doing), who would turn away from goodness and family….
In a perfect world without strife you don’t appreciate the gift you have
In fact, your life is more perfect than most people in the world today
Your live is more wondrous and expansive and incredible than most people and all animals that have ever existed.
And are you closer to god or farther away?
So, it seems that, if god gave you those things, you would never have acknowledged him (as you do now).
But if you lived 100 years ago, where you would be dead by 40…
You would be more grateful of what you have over what you don’t.
What do you hope to accomplish with your sickness?