What should we do with Abdulmutallab?
James Kirchik thinks we should waterboard him, because Abdulmutallab is a good example of the “ticking time bomb” scenario. I don’t even think waterboarding would be necessary—he’s hardly the hardened and veteran terrorist Khalid Sheikh Mohammed is. But I’m in complete agreement with Kirchik’s assertion that the Knickerbomber ought to be in Guantanamo being dealt with by the military justice system rather than the civilian, because he was trained by al Qaeda, a group that is at war with us, and he attempted mass murder of US citizens in furtherance of that struggle.
But no. The Obama administration is determined to give Abdulmutallab all the rights and privileges of the ordinary US citizen/murderer. Obama’s Attorney General Eric Holder is even on record saying that, if we ever were to capture Osama Bin Laden (remember him?), he could be tried in our ordinary criminal justice system because we’ve got enough evidence to convict him—thereby showing how irredeemably clueless Holder is about the entire idea of obtaining intelligence information from these characters.
In a related item, Obama’s chief counterterrorism adviser John O. Brennan stated the supremely reassuring news that, although the Knickerbomber has clammed up now that he’s been lawyered up; never fear, a plea bargain is near. In other words, in the same time-honored fashion that the government gets the smaller fish in drug dealing cases to rat out the larger fish by offering them suspended or reduced sentences for testifying, we’re going to offer the Knickerbomber the same opportunity.
I’m sure that’ll get all the other terrorists to shaking in their shoes, dreading the wrath of the US government. It’s almost as though Obama and Holder and Brennan are trying to underline, and give greater validity to, Dick Cheney’s assertions that their policies have made us more vulnerable to terrorism.
[NOTE: And for anyone who wants to mount the tired old “but the Bush administration did the same with Richard Reid” argument, here’s my rebuttal.]
Are we going to devolve into a vigilante society?
What if the Knickerbomber gets off and goes free after trying to kill 300 people. Would it be wrong for a sharpshooter to take him down when he’s outside? I sure don’t think so.
Today I bought my secret weapons for when I fly. I hope you’ll all do the same. I certainly don’t believe the government is interested in protecting us ordinary citizens.
Sauve qui peut.
I understand how you feel, and the impulse to DO something against what appears to be an intractable and ruthless enemy is only natural.
However, the government’s only solution to any problem is to do more of what it’s been doing. DC has been intervening in the Middle East for many decades, siding with despots, bombing civilian targets, and overthrowing governments. What did it do after 9/11? It invaded two more Muslim nations.
What do we have to show for nearly 5,000 American dead and a trillion in debt to the Communist Chinese government? The near-disaster in Detroit says pre-emptive wars have only made things worse. And descending deeper into barbarity by torturing suspects will only make us even more despised.
Let me see if I have this straight.
Obama & Co. think that a guy who was perfectly prepared to blow his naughty bits (and everything else) to smithereens is going to be terrified by the prospect of three hots and a cot, premium cable and clocking some gym time? Is that correct?
And people say Obama is clueless. Go figure.
Actually, Obama had the perfect precedent (and from a Dem President, no less): FDR’s military tribunals for the captured German saboteurs. FDR essentially ordered Francis Biddle to make short work of them as an example to others, and Biddle complied.
Now that’s how to deal with illegal combatants.
Old Rebel: you completely misunderstand this post. Kirchik may be talking about “torturing” (i.e. waterboarding) the Knickerbobmer, but I am not. The last waterboarding, even in Guantanamo, was in 2003. I am talking about trying him under military justice, as well as using stronger interrogation tactics on him, short of torture. And I believe this is the correct way to proceed.
Your assertion that we are no better—and even worse—after all these years of fighting terrorism is not supported by the facts, either. We have been free of major successful terrorist attacks. Al qaeda is weaker. Iraq is stronger. The Taliban, although still strong in Afghanistan, are no longer in control of it, nor are they allowing al Qaeda to run training camps there.
The fight is far from over. All of us knew this would be a long—meaning many decades long, at least—struggle. It will be. But Obama has shown great weakness and stupidity in how he’s going about it, and I believe it could be a fatal weakness.
As for our debt to the Chinese—it would be relatively small potatoes if Obama hadn’t started driving it up and up and up. The wars during the Bush administration were expensive and did increase the debt, but you ain’t seen nothin yet.
Criminal investigators seek information about past events sufficicient to secure a conviction.
Military/intelligence investigators seek information about possible future events in order to prevent them.
The two types of investigations seek two different outcomes. This administration is using the wrong tool.
The Left will declare victory if Abdulmutallab and the Gitmo detainees are convicted, even as our enemies’ plans continue.
Another point to add to Neo’s rebuttal of Old Rebel: There was nothing pre-emptive about taking out the Taliban. They were supporting AQ, and AQ struck first. With regard to Iraq, Saddam started it with the invasion of Kuwait and then failed to comply with the cease fire. The only thing pre-emptive about our action was acting before the removal of sanctions would let him rebuild his arsenal.
Our withdrawal from Somalia, where we were only trying to deliver humanitarian assistance initially, was an enticement to AQ and its macho cannon fodder
Old wrote, “It invaded two more Muslim nations.”
Interesting choice of word. I would write. We freed two nations from tyranny helping Muslims.
Let’s continue:
Old wrote, “The near-disaster in Detroit says pre-emptive wars have only made things worse. ”
Should be written as: The near disaster in Detroit says a) businesses can’t be strangled by Unions not looking out for the employees interest. b) lenders/buyers of homes should never again go down the road of interest only loans and not putting a percentage down. If you can’t afford the home – don’t buy it. People trying to help the poor have hurt the poor.
I chuckle a little at the thought of anyone thinking waterboarding someone who already blew up his own genitals would immediately cause him to give up everything he knows. If he talks it is because he is weak minded, and we already know he is easily led because he blew up his own genitals! People, think about it!
The following links to a news item on FOX News that reports that 6 Yemenis were released last month (around 12/20/09) from Guantanamo to Yemen, where they were promptly released by Yemeni authorities who determined that they were not security threats. (I hope I got the entire link.)
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/01/03/dems-join-gop-opposition-gitmo-transfers-yemen/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%253A+foxnews%252Fpolitics+%2528Text+-+Politics%2529
The question then is not what should be done to the Knickerbomber but how long will it take for Obama to release him. I wonder, though, if the criminal prosecution is pursued succesfully, will Obama pardon him on the last day of his presidency.
Not sure if the folks on the receiving end of those invasions feel like they’re been liberated from anything but their homes and livelihoods. Four million are exiled in the country, and hundreds of thousand are displaced outside Iraq.
I just hope no one tries to come liberate me!
Baklava: I was referring to the UndieBomber who almost succeeded Christmas day in Detroit. The invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq didn’t seem to stop him.
neo-neocon wrote: “Your assertion that we are no better–and even worse–after all these years of fighting terrorism is not supported by the facts, either. We have been free of major successful terrorist attacks. Al qaeda is weaker.”
Then you could claim Bill Clinton also kept the country safe for 8 years after he prosecuted Yousef for the 1993 World Trade Center bombing.
In fact, the fact that Muslim terrorists of various skill levels are trying to kill American civilians suggests strongly that Muslims hate us more than ever. I wonder why?
What “should” be done…harsh interrogation, swift military trial, execution. We can even give it a zippy name like: “Zero Tolerance for Terrorists”
Ain’t gonna happen.
Old Rebel . . .
What exactly is your point? We should let people blow up our airplanes and cities whenever they feel like it? What should we do, if anything?
Please explain.
His point is that we should reverse time, wake Saddam from his slumber to install his tyrannical government in Iraq – then rewind the clock on Afghanistan so that women were the scum underneath people’s shoes when they walked into a public restroom as they were stoned and beheaded like infidels.
His compassion precedes him.
Liberals (I was one myself) will argue illogically until they are one day woken up as to how uncompassionate they really were.
Liberalism is a mental disease and it spreads misery.
True compassion is liberating and is a compassion that is born of love not hate and misinformation.
And yes – I want Old Rebel to see!
That is why I used such striking words.
I want him to succeed in waking up for everyone’s benefit including his own.
It should be clear to anyone with a lick of sense that these people are going to keep coming at us no matter what we do. All we can do is strengthen our defenses and kill as many of them as we can for as long as we can. When AQ casualties in Iraq were greatly thinning their numbers, many AQ types went to Pakistan and Afghanistan. Now that drones and Hellfire missiles are vaporizing many of the bad guys, there is evidence that there is a movement to Yemen. The leaders are rarely the suicide bombers, but they control them.
The BVD bomber should have been dumped in a military prison, quickly tried and then hanged. AS OB pointed out, FDR had it right.
What do we have to show for nearly 5,000 American dead and a trillion in debt to the Communist Chinese government?
Oh, how about in excess of 10,000 dead wannabe terrorists, who could have been wearing flammable undies on 10,000 differerent flights.
You tell me: how do you convince someone who’s sworn to kill you any way they can to not kill you? and remember, not only have they sworn to kill you, but that they count this as being approved of by their god and in general a good thing.
Promethea,
Simply this — DC’s gotta give up its habit of messin’ where it shouldn’t be messin’. It’s been stirring things up in the Middle East, and we’re seeing the results. For some odd reason, people don’t like to see their families bombed and starved, no matter what that heartless Madeleine Albright says.
And throwing open the borders to whatever wants to come through — for whatever reason — adds a little extra insanity to the mix.
As Steve Sailer puts it, the US must stop its self-defeating “Invade the world/Invite the world” policy.
Dear serial killers,
Please stop.
Regards,
Your friend forever.
Old Rebel: Many exiles from Iraq who left during Saddam’s reign have returned to that country.
You can put yourself off the liberation list, but if I’d been an Afghan under the Taliban or an Iraqi under Saddam, I’d have been mighty pleased to have been liberated, and I believe I would understand that liberation from tyrants doesn’t happen without bloodshed.
As for Clinton and safety, you of course know that the complex action known as 9/11 was planned for years, during his administration. Actually, I don’t blame Clinton for that; I think that all presidents prior to 9/11 didn’t understand what the terrorists were capable of. However, post 9/11, we now know, and that’s what makes Obama’s desire to turn back the clock to a pre-9/11 mentality so pernicious.
What’s more, in case you’re forgotten, there was the little matter of the Khobar Towers attack in 1996:
Not to mention the 1998 US embassy bombings in Africa. And another little detail known as the USS Cole bombing in October 2000.
Absolute lunacy. Now the crotch bomber is lawyered up and saying exactly nuthin’. Are Islamists thinking to themselves,”Wow, this President Bamster is so like just & decent & tolerant & inclusive & like fair, we oughtta stop butchering innocents and start building grammer schools! We can like meet the Big Dude half-way.”
Anybody with a brain to think will like the following, perfectly reasonable suggestion better for El Crotchster Bombster: Whisk him to an undisclosed CIA interrogation site. Moisten his nasal membranes
until he has divulged EVERYTHING he knows. Repeat several times. March him before a Military Tribunal. Find guilty. Pass sentence. Within 24-hours of passing sentence, march him to a gallows or a shooting post and dispatch his murderous a**.
Bury or Burn & Scatter.
Baa-Daa-Bing. Like Dat.
Period.
You wouldn’t need to water board this guy. He couldn’t wait to divulge that there were three hundred more like him waiting in the wings. Give him an appreciative audience and he’ll tell you anything you want to know.
Thank goodness for small mercies. At least Old Reb seems opposed to open borders.
I R A Darth Aggie,
Where’d you get those numbers?
neo-neocon,
Yet millions more in Iraq remain homeless. It’s still the largest humanitarian disaster in the world today.
Decades of US interventionism were proven a disaster by 9/11. It’s interesting you bring up Khobar Towers — US troops there were propping up the corrupt Saudi monarchy — one of the reasons Bin Laden gave for justifying Muslim anger against the US. Once again, we’re messin’ where we shouldn’t be messin’.
Finally, if “liberating” other nations is supposed to be reducing the terror threat here at home, why are both Iraq and Afghanistan now listed as countries whose citizens will receive “intense screening at airports” if they’re entering the US?
Old Rebel Says:
January 4th, 2010 at 5:29 pm
I hate them more than ever. What’s your point?
There is another problem I would like explained, how is it in light of Obama’s dreadful leadership how is it he is not being hung in effigy in every neighborhood in America? Why is no one even mentioning impeachment?
An old sergeant once explained to me, nothing gets done in the US until someone gets killed. I wonder how many dead in America’s streets it will take to wake up the public about Obama and his dream team?
Old Rebel.
Did you ever hear of the Marsh Arabs? They are starting to move back to the marshes destroyed by Saddam.
Old Rebel
DC has been intervening in the Middle East for many decades, siding with despots, bombing civilian targets, and overthrowing governments.
If you look at the governments of the Middle East since 1945, you will observe that they have been overwhelmingly run by despots. If we support the status quo of despotism, we are damned by “siding with despots.” If we want to support more democratic forms of government in lieu of the despostisms in place, then we are damned by “overthrowing governments.” Damned if we do, damned if we don’t.
Regarding your accusation that we have been“bombing civilian targets,” I would suggest that compared to what we did to Japan and Germany even before Hiroshima and Nagasaki, we have been rather benign. Example : around 100,000 perished when the US firebombed Tokyo in early 1945. Central Tokyo burned to the ground.(Given the 10-20 million civilian Chinese estimated to have been killed in WW2, I lose little sleep over our having firebombed Tokyo.)
Wapo says the bomber will be offered a plea bargain.
Insanity.
Old Rebel…Uummmm…Where can we find and read your sources on the “millions” of displaced homeless refugees in Iraq? Something smelleth in the nostrils of the righteous, Boyo.
I’m a semi-refugee from Townhall.com as the Lefty Trolls are sucking all the thread space there with their Needy Wackiness and Bullshiite. Please, not again!
ExPat: Years ago I read i lovely little book on the people of which you speak: Wilfred Thesiger’s “The Marsh Arabs”. Fascinating. And, indeed, Saddam brutalized them and drained the marshes. The Americans have restored the area and the people are back. Boooooooooosh’s Fault !
Old’s advice highly reminds me of all the years I put up with being bullied – it sounds really nice but when you try it reality suddenly breaks in.
Standing up to a bully doesn’t work – they are bigger than you and they know it. Standing up gets the crap beat out of you.
Ignoring them and “not giving them what they want” doesn’t work because, well they are bigger than you and can easily escalate into beating the crap out of you.
What stopped them from beating the crap out of me was when I finally snapped and basically tried to kill one by repeatedly ramming his head into a brick wall until enough people pulled me off of him that I was forced to stop. Even then all that did was tell them where to draw the line – though that line was suddenly very deep and Not to Be Crossed.
Sadly, and I only realized this much later in life, my inability to do anything other than take it or blitz out is what caused that type of person to come after me (and in this respect I *do* agree with the have some blame here, or rather that we enable them to do what they do, not cause it). There was also an element of self loathing/lack of confidence there
too that was an enabling idea.
I have *never* known of a bully that simply standing up (or even merely striking them) made the “cowards” turn and run. To some extent yes they are cowards, but not in the true sense of the word. I’ve never known of someone bent on eradicating someone else from the face of the earth to decide you are an OK guy by us ignoring them.
The main difference here is that we are bigger than they are and they can’t beat the crap out of us. They can try and try and try but in the end they can not truly succeed unless we let them.
The only way to stop it is to beat them hard enough that they can’t keep trying. We can do that through the long hard way of “nation building” or we can glass them.
The other alternative is to accept that we are going to have a major incident ever decade or so as they learn how to get a particular strategy to work.
We can, and probably will, keep telling ourselves that the easy way out will work if only we do it *more*. That one day ignoring them will somehow work – it has to because it make *sooooo* much sense in my head. Not only that but they say that same thing too (that their actions do not follow rhetoric is cognitive dissonance – avoid avoid avoid avoid as that means I can simply ignore them and have it go away)!
It may be a few more decades before they grow enough to beat the crap out of us and we *have* to stand up and fight and at that point the only option left is going to be glass them. Thankfully Bush has planted enough seeds that, if they continue to grow, will have them fighting there and (hopefully, unlike Vietnam) have us support the correct side.
They are, ultimately, bullies just on a larger scale. At home they are truly the bullies, abroad they just haven’t grown big enough yet. Some people offer the normal bully solution, others figured out ages ago that only works in Imagination-Land. Sadly Imagination-Land is more appealing and we have to be forcefully taken out of it sometimes to see that.
Well, they are getting closer to the ability to pull this off. This is their second attempt, the next one or two attempts will be successful and for just a moment we will come into the Real World where some people are just bad and truly need to die. The only thing that kept this from happening before is enough out there believed this that we acted on it, not so much now.
“The Americans have restored the area and the people are back. Boooooooooosh’s Fault !”
Well, to be fair not only *is* it Bush’s fault but from a certain point of view we displaced them from their home of many years and sent them back into a swamp. How evil we are!!!! I bet there are a huge number of children that have never known a life other than the one we stole from them!
Silly argument. There might have been a hundred guys before him who collected their 72 virgins before they got the chance to fly to the Motor City.
At least we agree that the government shouldn’t be involved with healthcare.
Hell, the Saudis are clean as a hounds tooth (or the other end of the hound, for that matter) compared to the corrupt Kennedy monarchy, not to mention the corrupt Chicago and Detroit kleptocracies. At least the Saudis offer something of value.
“propping up the corrupt Saudi Monarchy – one of the reasons Bin Laden gave for justifying Muslim anger against the US.”
He was also really pissed about the Moors being run out of Andalusia in 1492. What do you suggest we do about that problem Reb?
The truth is that Osama doesn’t need an excuse to hate you. You are not a pathological islamic killer. Therefore, you don’t deserve to live unless you can be enslaved.
strcpy,
I don’t recall hearing that we required ANYONE in Iraq to relocate ANYWHERE.
The Marsh Arabs had a distinct and separate culture which was destroyed by Saddam through the method of starving the estuary where they lived of water. He build an entire water diversion project for no other reason. It was a cultural and ecological disaster.
By releasing water back into the estuary we restored the ecosystem (What? No credit from the Gaia lovers for that!) and allowed those who want to live there to return. If I were Bush I’d be proud to accept the blame for that.
Wm Lawrence: Methinks you did not detect the sarcasm in strcpy’s comment. Perhaps all sarcastic blog comments should end with the following symbol. 🙂
A further point about Osama’s being pissed at the US re Saudi Arabia: this was in large part due to infidel US troops being based in the holy land of Saudi Arabia as a result of Saddam’s invasion of Kuwait, and the aftermath. When the US deposed Saddam, it got US troops out of Saudi Arabia, IIRC.
I’m with Strcpy. These Muslims are bullies, and they won’t stop unless we make them stop.
Anyone who needs some historical perspective should read Andrew Bostom’s “The Legacy of Jihad.”
Islam is a Jim Jones-type cult that demands SUBMISSION.
SUBMISSION or DEATH.
Right now we have a window of opportunity to push this cult back to where it belongs. Weak or gone. Maybe we won’t be so fortunate if we let these supremacists get more power.
Less than 100 years ago, the Wahhabis were a meaningless little group of anti-social losers, but these creeps got lucky when they allied themselves with Saud, who wanted to control the Arabian Peninsula. Then Saud got lucky when the oil was found in his newly formed kingdom, which he named after himself.
OK, I’m rambling here. But the oil-producing Muslim countries are still militarily weak. One of these days, they will have the bomb. Maybe one of them will gain control of both sides of the Persian Gulf. I can think of a lot of future disaster scenarios.
My point? We need to push Islam back as far as we can. Being nice to killers on airplanes is not the way to go.
Moldy Old Rebel: For some odd reason, people don’t like to see their families bombed and starved, no matter what that heartless Madeleine Albright says.
What?! We bombed wealthy Nigerian kids’ $8mil flats in London?!
This must stop! All those rich, homeless bankers’ sons on the streets in SW1…. Oh, the humanity.
The undie bomber wasn’t even Middle Eastern. He was African. Specifically the kind of African that is supposed to like us now ‘cuz we elected Barack Hussein Obama….
What did the invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan do to him or his wealthy Nigerian family?
What does he have in common with the Middle Easterners? Can you thing of anything?
In fact, the fact that Muslim terrorists of various skill levels are trying to kill American civilians suggests strongly that Muslims hate us more than ever. I wonder why?
‘Cuz we suffer Jews to live, don’t stone homosexuals to death and allow women to read and write and go around in revealing pant-suits showing their face and ankles.
How do you think you would fare under Sharia law, Old Hippie? No more big California red wines, no more dope smoking….. I don’t think you would like it.
Look the guy burned his pecker off. So grab him out of the cell, enhance his interrogation until we get what we need. Oops, his rights were violated, so we put him on a plane to Nigeria and send his itinerary to his organization along with our heartfelt thanks for his cooperation.
Does it really matter if this guy spends a few years in federal prison? It’s not like his conviction will deter others from his crime. Better to get the info, let him go and if AQ doesn’t kill him, we know people who can have a quiet word with him one night.
Despite his liberal talking points, I suspect Old Rebel is not a liberal. Rather, he’s an isolationist in the mold of perhaps a Buchanan or even more likely, a Ron Paul advocate.
You can talk till you’re blue in the face but mere wrds will never convince him, only events because he doesn’t share our premises. And without agreed upon premises, any logic that extends from the premises will be sequential nonsense to the other, non-accepting party.
Old Rebel actually believes that history would be different if we just hadn’t “messed around” over there for all these years. He believes it because he must, for that belief sustains his illusions.
In a modern world of near-instant media exposure and communication, our culture’s foundational philosophical premise; that every individual has a divinely ordained right to “life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness” is that to which, Radical Islam most objects, as that premise, in a modern world is a mortal threat, to any 9th century tribal society.
That premise has created a societal culture that as Gray pointed out, is willing to accept the Jews, does not stone homosexuals to death and most offensive of all to Islamic sensibilities, regards women as fully equal to men.
Prior to the widespread adoption of TV, our culture could be ignored and imposed little impact upon tribal middle eastern societies. It’s not a coincidence that only a decade or two after TV gained worldwide presence the Iranian revolution occurred. Nor is it a coincidence that the early spread of the Internet coincided with the formation of Al Qaeda.
Ironically, Old Rebel is partially right, they are reacting to our presence. But it is not our physical presence nor our financial and geopolitical manipulations that enrage Radical Islam. No, it is far more basic than those surface manifestations, it is who and what we are, it is our allegiance to freedom and equality to which they most object.
Old Rebel simply will not accept that our culture is what most offends them.
He won’t accept it because if he does, facing Radical Islam becomes a case of kill or die. A case of the latest version of Hitler and the Nazi’s bent on world domination and well, that is just too unpleasant a reality to contemplate.
So, for as long as willful denial will serve, he shall refuse to see…and we all know the truth contained in the observation that, “none are so blind, as those who will not see”.
He’s certainly not alone and an awful lot of Americans are likely to die before those like him can no longer sustain their denial.
The last time this happened was in Britain and western Europe in the 30’s, and then like now, the liberal pacifists controlled the government. It wasn’t until Hitler invaded Poland with the disastrous debacle of Dunkirk closely following, before the English public awoke to the true reality they faced.
The result was 4 years of war and approx. 60 million dead.
Neocon Scum,
Here’s an article on the Iraqi refugees displaced by the invasion and subsequent sectarian violence.
Gray,
Well, for starters, I’m not THAT moldy.
Geoffrey Britain,
If you think I’m naive about the Muslim mindset, read this this post on the threat of Islam. It’s from an online debate I had with left-libertarian Jacob Hornberger, a decent enough chap who doesn’t appreciate the vital role of culture.
Occam’s Beard,
You have a point there. Rule by the Saudis probably would be preferable to rule by the Kennedys.
And your point about us agreeing on Obamacare is exactly right. What folks fail to grasp is that an aggressive government abroad will be an activist government at home. That’s how I responded to Glenn Greenwald when he wondered why both Neocons and progressives suppported Obama’s escalation in Afghanistan.
Bottom line: The US military and CIA have been intervening in the Middle East for decades, and the result has been 9/11. Bush’s supposed crusade against terror did not prevent numerous terror attempts here at home, nor did it prevent the Fort Hood massacre or the near-disaster in Detroit.
I’m just suggesting it’s time to try something different. “Invade the World/Invite the World” is killing and bankrupting us.
Bottom line: The US military and CIA have been intervening in the Middle East for decades, and the result has been 9/11.
Oh, it’s about Israel/The Jews…. Sorry. It took me a minute to sort out the “codewords”.
To Old Rebel the word Intervening = Yes we have the right to dive bomb planes into the World Trade Center and Pentagon and wherever else.
To other sane people. Having a “base” in Saudi Arabia doesn’t give you the right to be Bin Laden and terrorize the U.S. One of Bin Laden’s “reasons” is because we are in the Arabian Peninsula we are the great Satan.
Whose side are you on Old? You with the terrorists? 😉 Again with my striking words because that’s what it boils down to.
BTW, 80% of the Congress voted for the use of force in Iraq.
Neo, C-SPAN sends a letter to Congress
http://www.c-span.org/Topics/Health-Care-Insurance-Reform-Legislation-Town-Hall.aspx
Gray,
Oh, come on, that’s uncalled for. This post should convince you that I view Israel as an outpost of Western civilization. Just because I believe in Jefferson’s proscription about “entangling alliances” doesn’t make me anti-Semitic. I’m not.
Baklava,
I never said Muslims had the “right” to murder 3,000 innocent people. I’m saying that the supposed solution to Muslim terror — armed intervention and meddling in the politics of Muslim nations — only makes things worse.
I’m on our side. And right now, our side is going broke with no security gains to show for it.
Geoffery Britain…It’s been a true waker-upper for me in the past few years to see how close Paleos and Lefties are.
Arab “Mind Set”: Aggressive Self-Pity, according to the great Dr.Fouad Ajami. A perfect summation.
Old Rebel..Appreciate the link to the Editorial Page of the LA Times. It seems sensible & balanced for a section of a newspaper I called Pravda for years ! The displacements, for the most part, have come from Muslim on Muslim violence–bombing Mosques and other niceties–rather than us. I’ll look for some more details & info. Thanks. The aforementioned Dr.Ajami of The School of Advanced Studies at Johns Hopkins, published an excellent book in 2006 which I reccommend to all:”The Foreigner’s Gift:The Americans,The Arabs, & the Iraqis in Iraq”(Free Press).
I never said Muslims had the “right” to murder 3,000 innocent people. I’m saying that the supposed solution to Muslim terror – armed intervention and meddling in the politics of Muslim nations – only makes things worse.
Wait…. What does that have to do with “The Middle East”? As you claimed above?
Besides, I didn’t think Iraq was a “Muslim nation”….
Nigeria is not a Muslim nation.
The terrorists are stateless actors, not members of “Muslim Nations”. How does any of our “meddling” with Muslim nations influence the likes and dislikes of stateless Muslim terrorists?
Haven’t you just made the case that terrorist motivations is independent of anything we’ve done in the “middle east” or any policy towards “muslim nations”?
Traitor Hasan was an American Officer. Do you really think anything we did or didn’t do to Muslim Nations really had anything to do with his radicalization? Really?
And right now, our side is going broke with no security gains to show for it.
We’re not enforcing the No Fly Zones in Iraq anymore. We don’t have to goof around inspecting Iraqi nuclear sites for years.
We haven’t lost a ship, an embassy or skyscrapers in New York in the past 8 years. That’s waaaaaay better than we’ve done in the previous 8 years.
We’re “going broke” because of Obama’s policies, mainly his domestic ones, as well as our entitlement programs. We increased our debt because of the recent wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, but nowhere near as much as Obama is planning to increase it.
By the way, “Old Rebel” appears to be a Buchanan-type (if you read Mead, he would be more or less a Jeffersonian) isolationist.
By the way, “Old Rebel” appears to be a Buchanan-type (if you read Mead, he would be more or less a Jeffersonian) isolationist.
That policy didn’t even last until the War of 1812….
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Barbary_War
Gray,
The US is perceived as acting against Muslims. That’s why Hasan once stated in a presentation, “It’s getting harder and harder for Muslims in the service to morally justify being in a military that seems constantly engaged against fellow Muslims.”
He also listed his nationality as “Palestinian” despite having been born in Virginia.
And you may find this of interest:
http://www.newmediajournal.us/government/01052010.htm
Still think DC gives a rip about your security?
NeoConScum wrote: “It’s been a true waker-upper for me in the past few years to see how close Paleos and Lefties are.”
That’s simply not true. Lefties, like their Neocon cousins, want a powerful central government and believe historical cultures should be eliminated. That’s why both are for amnesty for illegal immigrants, which paleoconservatives oppose.
Old Rebel…No offense, but you apparently know as much about us Evil Neoconservatives as I know about Quantum Mechanics. Amnesty ! Lefty Cousins ! Nonsense.
We do know that ‘building a wall’ around America and placing our heads in the metaphorical sand is FOLLY of the worst kind where real and potential enemies are concerned. NEVER will work and would be laughable for the world’s uni-polar superpower(At least for now, but slipping quick under The One.). But, that has nothing to do with Illegal Aliens and continuing to let America be a syphon for South of the border.
Paleos and Lefties(and ‘Progressives’)all want us to cut, run and abandon reality and the World.
The US is perceived as acting against Muslims. That’s why Hasan once stated in a presentation, “It’s getting harder and harder for Muslims in the service to morally justify being in a military that seems constantly engaged against fellow Muslims.”
So you advocate basing our foreign policy on a terrorist’s “perceptions”.
Gray: I’m referring to what Mead calls “Jeffersonian.”
And Old Rebel: You know absolutely nothing about neo-conservatives. If you want to learn anything (which I doubt), go to the category “neocons” on the right sidebar here and start reading. No doubt you’d be against them anyway, but at least be against them for the right reasons.
That’s simply not true. Lefties, like their Neocon cousins, want a powerful central government and believe historical cultures should be eliminated.
That means “Palistinians”.
I was right–It’s an Israel/The Jews thing….
Gray: I’m referring to what Mead calls “Jeffersonian.”
That definition at the link you provided describes me almost perfectly.
However, I understand that abandoning Iraq and Afghanistan like we did the first time leads to failed states that non-state terrorists exploit to attack us based on their own “perceptions” of the US.
We cannot base our foreign policy based on extremist Muslim perception.
It seems obvious this guy knows a lot about Yemen training camp – where, who, how, who else was in his group of trainee, and so on. There is no question how valuable this information can be for preventing further carnage and shutting up the whole Al-Qaeda operation from Yemen. After he was given attorney, he shuts up. Unbelievable blunder! It can cost many, many lives. To squander such a rare opportunity – a man who was supposed to perish, so information was not hidden from him, taken alive and ready to talk!
Old Rebel wrote, “I’m on our side. And right now, our side is going broke with no security gains to show for it.”
That’s unfortunate.
If we reverse the progress – Iraq would have Saddam funding Palestinians still and creating/developing the items (whatever those were) to terrorize Israel and the U.S.
I’m sorry that you have an issue seeing the gains. That’s unfortunate.
If you can name a “war” where we lost less lives (and yes each life is too precious to even count) then you’d have some sort of point.
I wish for a utopia also. But given the lack of a utopia – I’d say the grey area shows progress was made and that we are in a better position given the two countries have been changed dramatically since 9/11.
I don’t know what short of utopia you’d have to see before you can say – “I see progress”.
Neocon Scum, neoneocon,
The Neocon ideology grew out of the split between American Trotskyites and Stalinists. Even the “godfather of neoconservatism,” Irving Kristol, freely admits that:
http://www.lewrockwell.com/dmccarthy/dmccarthy23.html
http://conservativetimes.org/?p=1431
As for this statement, “Paleos and Lefties(and ‘Progressives’)all want us to cut, run and abandon reality and the World.”
Ahem. Chris Hitchens, Joe Lieberman, and Hillary Clinton are leftists who support the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. And Glenn Greenwald, whom I cited earlier, couldn’t undestand why his fellow progressives were wowed by Obama’s defense of his escalation in Afghanistan:
http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2009/12/11/obama/index.html
So it’s not as simple as “left vs. right.” I’d say it’s statist vs. constitutionalist.
Old Rebel: as I said, read my posts in the category “neocons.”
There you go: Lew Hamas al Rockwalid.
I think it’s clear what we are dealing with here.
I’m not even a neocon…..
Well Old Rebel, I took the time to read your linked post. I even read the comment section. Most revealing.
Your blog confirms my suspicion that you are NOT a liberal. You are a southern secessionist still fighting the civil war. From your blog, Rebellion!’s subtitle: “The most powerful political forces of our time — localism, secession, and confederalism — vindicate the Southern Cause.”
Your post confirms my assertions as to your mind-set and lack of insight into Radical Islam’s hate for American culture. It is in the deeper implications of that hate which, you fail to appreciate, not its presence. Thus you will continue to deny the threat unless and until you have to fight them upon Wolverton Mountain, in North Carolina. But by then, it would be far too late.
What you fail to understand is that the real threat is not that someday armies of Muslims will threaten your local homeland. That shall never happen.
Rather it is that by not aggressively confronting Radical Islam abroad, your policy of isolationism yields the initiative to the enemy. Providing the time necessary for terrorists to acquire nuclear weapons which, they surely seek and when they use them upon American cities which, they most certainly will, our society will either collapse or adopt the isolationist policy you prefer.
BUT under a near-permanent declaration of martial law, with the essentially permanent suspension of many of the rights you presently take for granted.
That is because no modern democracy can sustain itself, as a democracy, when faced with a mortal threat which it refuses to confront and instead seeks to wall itself off from, either it shall fall to the aggressor or it shall implement necessary ‘internal security measures’ that sacrifice it’s fundamental nature such that it is no longer a democracy.
A democracy, by its very nature, can only offer openness. In a fight to the death between inimical world-views and, when ‘defense’ is the primary military strategy, ‘openness’ equates to a fatal vulnerability.
Control of our government will thus necessarily devolve over into either a military junta or a charismatic leader who promises safety, if given the power necessary to secure that safety, i.e. a dictator in all but name because only such, when faced with a mortal threat, can offer safety.
At that point, the American ‘experiment’ in representative democracy will essentially cease to exist and, we will have lost what you most seek to protect.
The threat from Radical Islam will not go away because defense never dispels a threat, it merely holds it at bay and thus a near-permanent rationale for the maintenance of long-term martial law is established.
Isolationism is always a fatally flawed strategy when faced with an outer threat based not in rational gain of territory or power but simple malevolence.
Your inability to recognize and acknowledge the very nature of the threat, lessens it not at all.
neoneocon,
Then you realize that Neoconservatism is a break with historical conservatism, and shares with its Trotskyite roots the goal of a “global democratic revolution”? That’s why Neocons are so enthusiastic about demographic revolution here at home, to reconstruct the US into a Third-World nation.
Geoffrey Britain wrote : “Your post confirms my assertions as to your mind-set and lack of insight into Radical Islam’s hate for American culture.”
Did you miss this:
http://www.dixienet.org/rebellion/2009/12/terrorism-is-cost-of-empire.html
Do you still think I do not see Muslims as a threat to the West?
Don’t forget, it’s Bush and Cheney who pushed for amnesty for illegal aliens, and both parties are encouraging Muslim immigration here. It’s the Muslims here among us who’re the real threats to our security and culture.
That’s why Neocons are so enthusiastic about demographic revolution here at home, to reconstruct the US into a Third-World nation.
Oh, boy! A kook! A real, live kook!
I’m old enough to remember the Ron Paul “(white)Power Reports” that used to get handed out at gunshows.
Old Rebel: As I said (and I’m getting very tired of saying it), if you want to know why I call myself a neocon and where I stand on the issues on how neocons are defined, read my blog, especially the articles under the category “neocons.”
Gray: yes, “Old Rebel” has some “interesting” ideas.
WHEW…! Thanks, Geoffrey Britain for the ‘thumbnail quickie’ of the errr..Rebel. Nice abridgement & clarifies for folks like me who have no time(or motivation)to go clicking & dialing all those cool wikipedia-google thingies he’s linking.
OR…Neoconservatism has absolutely NOTHING to do with Stalinism & Trotskyism or ANY LEFT Ideology. Yes, Irving Kristol was once–as a college ‘yoot in the 1930s–a Trotskyist. He became a classic anti-communist Liberal in the Democrat Party. By the late 60s and 70s he was seeing his party(and mine)move more & more Left and less and less anti-communist and ‘classical liberal’. It bears very little commonality with what is now known as Liberals, Progressives and Lefties. Your buddies at Salon are what Dem-Libs have become. Glenn is pluperfect as poster boy.
I pulled my “Reflections of a Neoconservative” (1983, Basic Books, NY)a few minutes ago and recommend that you get it from your library or, better yet, go to the used and out of print section at the Barnes & Noble Internet site and find a good old inexpensive copy to purchase. He takes care of the Trotskyist stuff at the very first section,’In the Beginning’. Additionally, you might spend the next year reading back issues of Commentary voraciously. Say..ohhh…the past 30+years.
Happy Trails, Buckaroo.
I’d say if they want to dance, let’s dance.
What would I do with this scum, who as a terrorist has no–repeat no–Constitutional rights, and according to the Geneva Conventions, when caught could have been shot on the spot.
Waterboard the hell out of him, wring him dry of any useful information, and then put his wittle Sir Dignity diaper back on him–functional this time–and detonate it by remote control from a safe distance away, then–to take a leaf from Black jack Pershing and his fight against the fanatical Muslim Moros in the Philippines, bury the remains with a pig.
Old Rebel: I disagree with most of what you say but give you points for hanging in there and comporting yourself well.
My take on neoconservatism is that it started as bastard term coined by Michael Harrington, a socialist, for people he didn’t like and it’s gone downhill since.
These days it’s a near meaningless term, mostly used as a term of abuse by those who, again, don’t like the people they are calling neocons.
I think we’d better off talking, one at a time, about the individual ideas that are glommed together in neoconservatism.
neoneocon,
Yes, I read them. You acknowledge Kristol’s influence, and seem okey-dokey with the Neocon agenda of big government, “noble lies” to manipulate the unwashed, and perpetual war.
I would add that the record is pretty clear that the greatest threats to personal liberty and security is not an external threat, but one’s own government:
http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/NOTE1.HTM
huxley,
Thanks for that. Hey, think we can beat Darwin?
I would add that the record is pretty clear that the greatest threats to personal liberty and security is not an external threat, but one’s own government:
Then he posts a link to Prof RJ Rummel in Hawaii about “democide”.
RJ Rummel coined the term democide for murder by government, his research claiming that six times as many people died of democide during the 20th century than in all that century’s wars combined.[1] He concludes that democracy is the form of government least likely to kill its citizens and that democracies do not wage war against each other.[2]
He strongly supports the current War on Terror and the Iraq War.
Hahahahahaha! Sounds just like a “neocon”
Own petard. Hoist!
Not sure if the folks on the receiving end of those invasions feel like they’re been liberated from anything but their homes and livelihoods.
Old Rebel: This is one of your original claims that you have repeated in various forms and on which you base much of your argument against the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq.
You take it for granted, like many who oppose those wars, that the citizens of those countries are little more than victims whose lives have been damaged or destroyed. However, you would be wrong.
Here’s a link on the question, href=”http://engram-backtalk.blogspot.com/2006/12/kofi-annan-longs-for-saddam-husseins.html”>Was Ousting Hussein Worth It, from December 2006 that breaks that poll question down among Iraqi groups and shows Kurds at 75% and Shiites at 81% saying the ouster of Hussein (i.e. the invasion) was worth it despite the hardships.
I’ve been following this angle since 2003 and the overall numbers are consistently 55% – 77% (the Sunnis, Hussein’s ethnic group, bring the number down). The Pew Poll stopped asking the question, seemingly because the answer wasn’t the desired result. I’m sure the numbers today are even higher, now that Iraq has become much more stable and the war essentially a success.
If I have time, I’ll look for numbers on Afghanistan. Since that was the so-called “good war” there may be less material on that aspect.
Dang. Here’s the clickable link: Was Ousting Hussein Worth It.
Wolla Dalbo…On handling of Crotch Bomber, see my comment here at 6:49pm yesterday. You and I share the same delicate, sensitive approach to these slime. I’m ALL for Gen’l Pershing’s procedure of strapping the b*****ds to the end of cannon barrels and sending a pig’s blood soaked round through them. But, hey, I’m fine with hanging, shooting or garroting in a very timely manner.
NeoNeo…Funny, isn’t it, what can be revealed with some time about a fella named Old Rebel ?
huxley,
Reading from the link – I’ve figured it out… Old Rebel is a Sunni !!!!!
All that “Southron Rebel! America is an Evil Yankee Empire!” nonsense gets tedious in a hurry.
The only thing wrong with The South is Sherman didn’t march wide enough or deep enough….
You’re spitting on the South using the moniker ‘Gray’ ?
Oh, I love yankee slicks. They’re so…whatchacall paradoxical.
Today the WSJ has a good column on Ramzi Yousef, the mastermind of the 1993 WTC bombing:
“Our courts and our juries, our citizens, are tough enough to convict terrorists. The record makes that clear,” said President Obama last May 21 at the National Archives. “Ramzi Yousef tried to blow up the World Trade Center. He was convicted in our courts and is serving a life sentence in U.S. prisons.”
However, eight years later we learned that Yousef’s uncle was “none other than Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, the mastermind of 9/11 and one of Yousef’s co-conspirators in the failed Bojinka plot to blow up airliners across the Pacific Ocean.”
Yet as far as we know, Yousef told U.S. interrogators little or nothing about KSM’s plots and strategy once he was in U.S. custody. This isn’t surprising, since once he was in the criminal justice system Yousef was granted a lawyer and all the legal protections against cooperating with U.S. interrogators. To this day, we don’t recall any official claim that Yousef has provided useful intelligence of the kind that KSM, Abu Zubaydah and other al Qaeda leaders later did when they were interrogated by the CIA.
Who knows what golden opportunities to obtain intelligence about al-Qaeda were wasted by trying Yousef in a civilian court. Perhaps we could have obtained enough dots to connect that we could have prevented 9-11.
Leftworld’s Talking-Sputtering Heads were in full Rage-Faux Outrage mode tonight regarding Dick Cheney & (Today)daughter Liz’s remarks on The Bamma and his delicate treatment of Islamist Monsters. My God, I thought the mongoloid screecher, Eddie Schultz, was literally gonna pop his baby blue shifty eyes out. Lil’Chrissy Matthews was…well…SCREAMING ! This is becoming too, too, tooooooooooooooo much fun ! According to these psychopathic slime, NO Vice President has had the temerity EVER, EVERRRRRRR to challenge a sitting president’s dedication to National Security. They shrieked that crap with NO sense of irony or awareness of looking like hideous clowns. Jeepers, A****les, can you spell G*O*R*E ?
Go, Cheney(s)!!!!!!! It’s churning the idiocracy to butter.