Crossing the health care reform bridge
Mark Steyn says it well:
If “health care” were about health care, the devil would be in the details. But it’s not about health or costs or coverage; it’s about getting over the river and burning the bridge. It doesn’t matter what form of governmentalized health care gets passed as long as it passes. Once it’s in place, it will be “reformed”, endlessly, but it will never be undone.
That’s the reason that what happens next in the Senate is paramount. Yes, contact your Senators and let them know what you think. But does anyone really believe that most of them will be swayed by a write-in campaign from their constituents?
I don’t. A few undecided moderates perhaps, but only a few (if any). Nearly all the rest will vote Party line, and the real drama will be in what strategies Reid can devise to get past the problem of the filibuster (it’s unlikely there would be sixty votes because of Lieberman, and probably a few others). If Reid is creative enough and ruthless enough, he will do it, and the bill will pass.
Is Steyn correct that then there will be no going back? I fear he may be, but I’m not sure. It really depends on how dreadful the results of the bill are. If they’re bad enough, and an overwhelmingly Repubican Congress is elected as a result (and I mean overwhelmingly), repeal could happen.
But once this bill or something like it takes effect, the present system of private health care insurance and choice will over the next couple of years be essentially destroyed. Repeal of the bill would then require reconstruction of the private system in some new and (we can hope) improved fashion—rebuilding the burned bridge, to use Steyn’s metaphor.
Conservatives and moderates may not get that opportunity. And I’m not at all sure I would trust any Party in Congress to accomplish the feat in a competent manner. To use another metaphor—best to avoid making an omelet out of these particular eggs, because you can’t put Humpty Dumpty back together again.
The US economy will have to default on all it’s loan obligations before we undo ANYTHING. That won’t happen for 20,30, 40 years. Medicaid/Medicare/Social Security despite being bankrupt is still with us. Fannie Mae/Freddie Mac is still here an so will Pelosi/Obamacare in 20 years. It will be impossible to overcome the hysterical outrage of the liberal media and Democrats if we moved to remove the system. Too many union jobs, too many aid recipients, too many Congressman lining their pockets to undue this nightmare. I predict permanent 7+ percent unemployment and a massively devalued currency. And the idiot voters will ask ‘why?’ tens years from now as though these events never occurred.
I’m a staunch conservative and even I have fears of the pendulum swing that may be coming. I can’t imagine it not returning the favor of putting its boot on lots of throats in response to the economic destruction being inflicted on peoples lives by those in power now.
So, I agree, what are our options, if they will not listen to us? The Dems and the moron Repubs that stand with them (or the one, in the case of the House) don’t give a damn about the people, about 1.5-2 million people marching on Washington, on worsening polls against them and against health care, and two big governorships that went against them. Nothing seems to matter. They spin and lie about EVERYTHING, with nary a pause for a breath.
It’s truly scary. The Republicans may have been nitwits, when they had power, but I don’t recall the lie upon lie upon lie in the face of such resistance. It’s truly breathtaking.
What do we do? I’m asking, I really want to know. What would be effective?
The most frequent idea is “wait until 2010”. But Neo’s point, if I’m not mistaken, is that if this passes, it is TOO DAMN LATE.
Any ideas out there? How do we fight against the totalitarians (without violence, which I’m not advocating, even if I feel like throwing a brick through the TV every time I see Botox Nancy on the screen)?
Seriously, what can we do in the face of these tyrants? And they ARE tyrants, and I feel like they are worse than King George III and his minions EVER were!
WE. ARE. SO. SCREWED.
My house rep is mike michaud, a “blue dog” who of course voted “aye”. He has a little poll on his web site that says the following:
“What is your top priority for Congress this year?
Reforming Health Care
Financial Regulatory Reform
Passing an Energy/Climate bill
Immigration Reform ”
NONE OF THE ABOVE
now for my senators. Which one will be more futile, snowe or collins?
I would echo SteveH that the backlash from this is going to be ugly.
I’m about to the point of wishing the “rogue comet” (of B-grade science fiction movie fame) would hit us NOW, as long as it manages to hit Wash DC while our esteemed legislators are in session. Or else maybe there could be an outbreak of Ebola? Or a giant sinkhole engulfing the Capitol Building. Or…
As you may be able to tell, I’m so frustrated I’m having thoughts that cannot be posted on responsible blog-sites. There seems to be no way to make “them” listen to us. When did “they” become as gods, unreachable, unknowable, and totally unresponsive to those who petition them to stop destroying our economy in the name of saving it? (It’s especially heinous that they’re trampling our GUARANTEED FREEDOMS underfoot in order to accomplish this destruction. I do NOT want the sleazoids in govt telling me I MUST buy insurance because their moral certainty declares that somebody else needs the benefits of my earnings more than I do.)
Have you followed some of Glenn Beck’s recent shows on Fox? He maintains that this administration is establishing a non-elected, partisan superstructure that will be ready to step in “just in case” (more like “when”) all these monstrous new legislative packages cause our system to fail. I thought his idea was “way out there”, but then again, I also thought our legislators were bright people with good sense and foresight, and a commitment to our country’s ideals. (My mistake. BIIIIG mistake.)
Either we placidly follow our “leaders” down the road to destruction, as the British seem to be doing with their PC/ multi-culti/ “diversity is so wonderful we can’t wait to commit cultural suicide” policies, or … what? How do we take our country back from those indebted to and supported by Big Business, Big Finance, Big Pharma, Big Medicine, Big Education, Big Labor (all of which seem to be assuming there is no downside for them in the takeover of our country and its economy) ?
I wish I had a clue how we-the-people are going to change American governance from “your superiors in Washington know best, you ignorant peasants” back to a government “of, by and for the people”.
While so many people believe that the health care reforms will bring about the destruction of the economy because of the problems with Medicare and Medicaid, few have commented on how the 17% of GDP currently being spent on health care is affecting the economy. This is a full 7% additional spending in GDP over what is spent in other countries with equivalent or better care and is worth about $900 million annually.
Even if the government is inefficient, it would be impressive if they were able to operate as poorly as the current for profit system is working. They are not creating a system out of thin air. There are lots of other countries successfully implementing health care that can be copied. What would make the US government so incompetent that it could not at least come close to the efficiencies of other countries?
Passage of the health reform bill in Pelsoi’s House was hardly a symbolic vote in my opinion. Syeyn’s reasoning is consistent with Neo’s and Bestybounds’ in the previous thread and my view is consistent with theirs’. I’ll concede that maybe Pelsoi’s manipulations were symbolic to an extent, but that argument pales as a minor thing in light of the larger goal to turn off the lights to other avenues of reform to Obamacare. They’ve (Pelosi et. al) crossed the threshold of no return in the House and that’s what she / they wanted to do. As others have pointed out, the implications of undermining our representative democracy are profound. I wish I didn’t have these dark cynical / sagging feelings about the political future of our country. I don’t like carrying them around. It’s painful.
Unfortunately this was bound to happen.
Every other nation on this planet is either a dictatorship or some varying form of socialism.
The liberals control everything in this country now: 90% of all media, the entire education system, Wall Street, banks, large business, the courts, all branches of the Federal Government etc ad infinitum.
The handful of conservative representatives don’t have a chance.
The process is now 100% corrupt, and there is no returning from this.
Welcome to
AmericaNew Zimbabwe.Xhtml fail
Well hell heck.
It seems large chunks of our population no longer have a healthy fear of big Government. The Founders feared a powerful Central Government. People in a healthy Republic should fear a powerful central government.
Its like somebody baiting a trap for animals. The animal sees the bait, goes in to get it, not realizing the danger he is in. All he can think about is how good the bait will taste.
Enough whining already! As John Paul Jones said, ” We have not yet begun to fight.”
The place to continue to stem the tide toward federalization of health care and other issues that are not specifically spelled out in our Constitution is in our state legislatures. Efforts have already started in 13 states. If enough states ultimately take a stand to reject the unfunded mandates and choose not to play the game of tax swapping with the runaway federal government, the courts will be forced to address just what our Constitution preserves and protects. If a strike by a number of “red states” is not enough to win repeal, then a general taxpayer strike will need to be organized. There are many opportunities and options to stop federal government tyranny before anyone has to resort to total revolution. The Tea Party Coalition will not go away quietly and watch our freedom wither. Do not forget that 2010 elections are an opportunity to bring sweeping change because the current dissatisfaction level with the direction of government is unprecedented.
Apparently, Pelosi et al assume that we will get on our knees and open wide.
We’ve eaten global warming.
We’ve chowed on The Stimulus.
We’ve engulfed the takeover of corporations that they deem unfit for private operation.
We’ve sucked down their lies, their vilifying any opposition, their arrogant posturing…
And now we are to go along with orders to get health care, and to accept it when our governors propose fines and jail time if we refuse.
The only thing we haven’t done is swallow.
Maybe it’s time to bite down. Hard.
REAL hard.
“If Reid is creative enough and ruthless enough, he will do it, and the bill will pass.”
Reid has shown himself to be somewhat inept as a speaker. There is reason to hope.
Stark,
What you say sounds good to me. I’m doing some research into tea party organizations in my home state, and others should do the same. It’s time to get up off our butts and do something besides go to tea parties, and the state-level route sound promising.
Wellescent Health Blog,
I’ve never understood how it is possible to determine the optimum amount any country “should” spend on health care. I do not understand how anyone determines that we spend “too much,” and arguments can be (and have been) that we should actually be spending more. This does not automatically translate into having the government spend more, however–nor should it. The private system, with all its flaws–and of course there are flaws–provides value received for value spent, and most people are pretty happy with it.
I also do not know which countries you are talking about, with care that is equivalent to or better than what we in the US enjoy, or what metrics you have used to determine that. The only possibility I can think of is Norway (and possibly, but not definitely, Germany), and I’m not sure that’s actually comparable–for many reasons, including ones of scale. There are enough horror stories about the British NHS to rule that country’s system out as being better than ours, and similar stories about Canada, the model so many people are so in love with, are beginning to increase in number. It’s worth remembering that, when they can, many Canadians prefer to cross the border and be treated in this country. We are right to be, at a minimum, extremely cautious. The terrible inefficiency of our government is on full display every single day, so there is no need to posit it as an “if.” People complained mightily about the post-Katrina problems with FEMA, and the current swine-flu vaccine mess is another frequently cited example. Social Security is operating on borrowed time because legislators have put its trust fund into general funds and for decades treated it as free money, spending it as they liked. I can think of no reason why, with this and even more history available for inspection, any government program or effort should be regarded as better managed than the current private health-care sector.
If enough of us didn’t pay our taxes, we could bring the system down.
Hong Says:
“And the idiot voters will ask ‘why?’ tens years from now as though these events never occurred.”
Deregulation. 🙂
My only idea at this point: Buy gold. Obama and the Democrats can’t touch it…yet.
Cap’n Rusty is right. It will take massive civil disobedience in not paying taxes to bring down the system.
Unfortunately, Pelosi is looking seriously at VAT.
Well, it looks like a little over half of the House decided to stampede across that particular Rubicon – with Pelosi in the lead…
(BTW – crossing the Rubicon WAS at the time considered an act of war, something I feel Pelosi and company have now declared on the middle class and anyone even slightly right of center)
If the Senate likewise passes a bill, and they manage to get something on The Won’s desk for signature (and don’t think for a skinny second he won’t sign it!) then we really are looking at government imposed poverty for a long, long….long….time.
Gold is no help – they have the precedent of outlawing private ownership of that during the Depression.
What are we left with?
We can do what is necessary to vote as many of these a$$holes out next year as possible that voted for this travesty – but it will still take years to undo the damage once done.
It looks like they may be trying to shove as much through the system, and get it in place, as possible before the elections next year.
Perhaps they’re worried they have to get it done now while they still hold power?
Perhaps they worry they won’t have that power after next November?
Pelosi was willing even to give up that most sacred of liberal sacrements – abortion – in order to get this passed.
Of course, who here actually thinks abortion will stay left out for very long? At some point it WILL get back in and then we will be treated to all of these blue dogs screeching about how THEY didn’t vote for that!
What the hell did they expect was going to happen after they let this bill through?
Any candidate that the republicans put up next year absolutely must be willing to work to repeal this crap sandwich.
In the meantime, ya better be getting prepared for the coming $hit storm.
A dysfunctional health care system is going to be only one of many problems to fix after Obonga gets finished *fixing* the US.
I am a registered democrat.
Democrats in the South are usually a bit to the political right of Republicans in the North.
I think I’ll go look into who is running against the incumbent democrats in my state that I can contribute campaign funds to.
I don’t look forward to getting messages from Steele asking for more money if I find one that I can stomach backing financially – but at least I’ll be doing SOMETHING!
After reading Scottie, it occurs to me that Rahm Emanuel’s ploy of nominating conservative Democrats to run in conservative districts and then, once they are elected, bending them each to the political will of the liberal national party in Congress, has run its course. It’s been clear for some time that for genuinely conservative candidates, there is no actual point whatever in running as a Democrat, because that will cost the candidate his soul when he gets to Washington. I’ve also thought it’s interesting that Pat Caddell, a constant self-proclaimed Democrat, has been saying that the Democrat party has been captured by the radical Left for some years now, and he is rebelling–to the extent that he can.
Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, and so on. . . .
I will never vote for a Democrat as long as they are the proxy party of the unvarnished Left, which is what they have been and are now–and certainly are for the foreseeable future. The question is, though, will it matter? How corrupt are the DOJ and the election process about to become?
It’s a question awaiting an answer. The portents, however, are not good. I, in my darker moments, am with neo in agreeing with Beverly, who commented under neo’s The Deed Is Done post.
Looks like every government in the world really does have to try socialism, at least once. It’s just such a beautiful idea, the socialist god-government caring for all its people from cradle to grave, providing everything and demanding nothing… it’s such a beautiful vision that nobody dares even ask how such a thing could possibly exist, and once the revolution establishes a semblance of such a perfect world, nobody with the connections to change it will ever willingly look at the slaughterhouse growing just below the surface.
Tatterdemalion,
Oh, please. A slaughterhouse growing just below the surface?
It can’t happen HERE.
Can it?
betsybounds,
“It can’t happen HERE.”
Per Larry Grathwohl (undercover agent who penetrated the Weather Underground):
“The thing the most bone chilling thing Bill Ayers said to me was that after the revolution succeeded and the government was overthrown, they believed they would have to eliminate 25 million Americans who would not conform to the new order.”
Nah betsybounds, it could never happen here – that would rank right up there with electing a socialist as president as far as realms of possibility!
A_Nonny_Mouse Says:
November 8th, 2009 at 4:47 pm
I recall hoping for a Tunguska type event occurring over Washington, DC on Jan. 20. Alas, my hopes were dashed.
Tax payer is the right idea. It’s time for Atlas to shrug.
Well, there is hope after all…..just heard on the radio on the drive into work this morning that both my senators – one republican, one democrat – have expressed “concerns” over the cost of this travesty.
I wouldn’t expect the democrat to be questioning the constitutionality of the bill sent up by her own party – but I’m a little disappointed the republican isn’t mentioning that issue.
Then again, if the two senators are on speaking terms they may be toning down the rhetoric on one side while toning it up on the other, meeting in the middle.
I can live with that.
Now about those house members…..
“The thing the most bone chilling thing Bill Ayers said to me was that after the revolution succeeded and the government was overthrown, they believed they would have to eliminate 25 million Americans who would not conform to the new order.”
That’s how it always starts, eliminating traitors to the new order. A war crime, yes, but not yet a genocide. That comes later, after all the tratiors are executed but the socialist system still doesn’t work.
The thing is – this thing TRULY costs 3 trillion every 10 years (at present – not counting inflation).
300 billion per year and rising….
So yes. I prefer these people continue going to the emergency room and the system absorbing them that way until we can figure out a way that is truly cost neutral.
Giving somebody the ability to visit a doctor without going to the emergency room is probably a good plan. The question is – for what ? Checkups? Colds ?
When you get in a car accident you go to the emergency room anyway. When you want to see a doctor to get mammograms and such… pay for it!
Out of your pocket people !
Sell your hdtv if you have to – i currently only own a 27″ tube – you can do it !
Wellescent – that 17% number includes what people spend out of pocket on things like vitamins, alternative therapies, magazine ads, etc. Americans like to buy those things, and they will still be there after any “reforms.” You may consider such money wasted, but people choose that of their own free will. That amount will still be added on to whatever the government cost of health care is. It’s apples and oranges comparing that to other countries.
Secondly, those other countries you mention do not have millions of illegal immigrants in them. They are in fact quite homogenous populations compared to ours, which makes an enormous difference in what people will shell out. Apples and oranges.
When things look that simple, so that you ask “what could go wrong?” I have to consider you a person who should in no way have a say over my wallet or my culture. You may have that right in law, but you do not have it in morality or reason, and I will resist giving you any more authority than the law allows.
Absorb this thought: if it really were about health care for poor people, conservatives would be less opposed – certainly less energised. Lots of us would still think it a bad idea to centralise authority and increase entitlements, but hell, the government always does stupid expensive things that we grouse about. Our point is that this is not going to be anything like what it is advertised as. Nearly everything that is being put forward as an argument in favor of this reform will turn out to be completely irrelevant in the long run. You think you are coming onto the lot to buy a car. The contract you will sign will donate money to a money-losing commuter rail system instead, and you will have no car.
Whatever the American people decide, if it’s a democratic process then you can do no better.
nyo, you must be joking.
nyo,
The “democratic process” empowered a *democracy* to execute Socrates, and a few millenia later empowered the government of 1930’s Germany – and we all know how well THAT turned out.
There really was nothing in between those two events to establish a democracy as preferable form of government over a republic.
Here, according to a politician quoted in the New York Times, is how our President speaks about Americans who disagree with him:
“According to Representative Earl Blumenauer of Oregon, who supports the health care bill, the president asked, “Does anybody think that the teabag, anti-government people are going to support them if they bring down health care? All it will do is confuse and dispirit” Democratic voters “and it will encourage the extremists.”
As crude as Nixon or LBJ could be in private, before this administration, could anyone have imagined that the President of the United States would use a degrading sexual slur of this kind, in an address to legislators, to describe the people of his own country? How on earth did we GET here?
Mrs. Whatsit. The sort of arrogance and oversimplification that considers opposition to his plan the same as trying to bring down health care is a mark of narcissism who considers his opponents as merely evil, deserving of none of the respect for other human beings you and I would consider normative.
One thing that is different is that, for the first time, they are pushing a major takeover that’s unpopular.
It is my understanding that social security and medicare were popular when they were voted on. I think it is possible (if not easy) to push it back before it sinks in its hooks.
That $300 billion per year would cover 30 million people with a health plan of a $10,000 per year plan.
That’s considered a cadillac plan isn’t it?
Gotta keep educating people… including details about how most of the bad things won’t kick in right away. You know, the government is going to take over regulating what treatments you get and then inist your private healthcare conform to their plan. This happens in X number of years. Et cetera.
That way when we retake congress and try to change this mess we can point out to people that the ill effects have yet to hit.
http://drhelen.blogspot.com/2009/11/gambling-with-our-health-care-system.html
If only I had time to read this book.