It all depends on what the meaning of “bow” means
The White House says that Obama did not bow to the Saudi king:
“It wasn’t a bow. He grasped his hand with two hands, and he’s taller than King Abdullah,” said an Obama aide, who spoke on the condition of anonymity.
You be the judge:
[NOTE: The Anchoress has the backstory.]
That was a bow, no doubt about it. It was done quite intentionally. It’s his way of acknowledging where some of his campaign money came from. This is what the client does for the patron.
On other blogs some of the men had the same thought I had: it almost looked as if Obonga was going to be a fellator. This man and the people who voted for him fill me with disgust.
Clearly it was not – Obama only sought to reach eye level with the king. You must realize that when one has as tall and manly a physique as Obama once you start that motion it can be hard to stop – it was simply momentum from his bulging muscles.
Really, he would have been better off just saying that bowing was the polite method of greeting for his position and he was only trying to follow the host countries customs. Then all of us could easily be dismissed as a bunch of whiners (whether we are correct about the rules of etiquette or not). He could easily deflect questions like “Why only the Saudi King then?” with his normal “That’s Silly” comment.
That type of bow is submissive, period. There is no culture anywhere that it would not be. Many cultures (Japan being one) have non-submissive bows – heck even we do, a slight lowering of the head. However there is no culture on the planet that eyes down to the floor and bending over till your head is lower than the others (especially noting here because of the difference in height – that took a great deal of effort on Obama’s end to do) is nothing other than that and should *never* happen.
And that isn’t being picky either – I’m a hillbilly in east Tennessee and I know enough about etiquette with cultures that use bowing to know about it. I’m a lowly Software Engineer that has to meet with overseas people from time to time – even when their culture would dictate it I *never* bow in that manner. You can not tell me that Obama and his handlers know less than I do about it or should be less picky than a small software company – or if someone *really* wants to run with that then, well, there isn’t much I can do to help you.
The only time I have done anything similar was in some Japanes Martial Arts (Namely Judo and Jui-Jitsu for me), yet that also had quite a bit of formality to it and was intended to be submissive to the teacher/judges. Competitors did it equally to each other.
Hmm, maybe Obama expected the Saudi King to do the revers at him as an equal? He seems …stiff… after the bow. He either realized that was stupid or didn’t like the response he got from the King (I wouldn’t put it past him to have expected one back).
He kissed the old fart’s ring. What a tool.
Sorry for the rude language, but really. Note, too, that he did NOT bow to the Queen of England. If you’re going to bow to anyone, she’d be the dame. (Of course, those of us who have actual American ancestors would hear them spinning in their graves either way.)
I was talking to a good friend, a real smart man, a philosopher of sorts, who “doesn’t read the Wall Street Journal, on principle,” about the economic crisis. He knows a good bit of history, such as the South Sea Bubble, and other economic crises. But he said two things that struck me.
One: he said “no one I’ve been reading has blamed the housing bubble on the [PC, Congress-instigated] mortgages.” (That’s when I found out that he refuses to read the WSJ, which he got a bit defensive about.)
Two: he said that “this system [capitalism] has failed, and we need a new system. And people are so damn mad that they’re going to demand it.” He’s usually a calm fellow, but he sounded bitterly angry.
Now, this guy is not a doctrinaire Leftist, altho he’s some sort of lefty. He’s not a Kool-aid drinker, but a guy who reads a lot and cobbles together his own world-view. He’s fun to talk to because he has read so much and is very intelligent; he can also have an actual discussion with you on the merits.
Nevertheless, he sees all too clearly the corruption and malfeasance in the capitalist halls of power, and all too dimly the corruption and malfeasance in the government halls of power. He’s like a fellow with a spyglass, looking through the wrong end at his government, and through the magnifying end at those he dislikes.
Now, I know where he’s coming from: New York City is crawling with Gordon Gekko types. For real. Our landlord is one such creature, and he’s universally loathed. Bends and breaks laws, harasses tenants, gouges people, doesn’t provide services (like heat and gas) even though he’s charging an arm and a leg. And there are plenty of these assholes in business, too. My friend is right about that.
So, he’s voicing the “pitchfork mob’s” resentment, and it’s serious, friends. There’s enough crap that’s been pulled by the business community to make it all too easy for the gubmint goons to hang this whole crisis on their horns.
I made the argument that the gubmint goons are just as corrupt if not worse, and much less effective at creating wealth, but he argued with me. I made the point that you always have boom and bust cycles, and he brought up the Bourse and the first bust happening some 20 years later. IOW, as soon as we got on a free market system.
We also debated about when we actually got off the gold standard; I said I thought it was something like a hundred years ago, and he said it was in the 1960s, with Nixon. We both retreat to our computers to Google things after these debates!
Anyway. I’m bringing this up because I heard a note of anger in his voice that I haven’t heard before, one I think we would be well advised to pay attention to. We’re not, I think, going to be able to skate past this crisis by just pointing fingers at Barney Frank et cie. (Dick knew something about Frank’s involvement and has contempt for him as well).
There will have to be some judicious mea culpae all around, methinks.
Can you imagine the laughter that this elicited from the dachas west of Moscow and in the palaces in Beijing and Qom?
Vladimir Putin must have been rolling around on his living room carpet, hysterically laughing about this.
They have him. The rest is not going to be pretty.
The next four years are going to be an object lesson to those who voted for him that appearances are deceiving.
He looks like he’s kissing his hand, or perhaps a ring to me… In the interest of reducing violence and “getting along” in this world, we have long rationalized and condoned unpleasant varieties of contact and conduct in international diplomatic relations, with people engaged in essentially criminal gangster behaviour, people (ie. the Saudi “monarch”) who should rightfully be locked up or executed. Obama, however, has changed the equation for America. As our foremost representative and leader, he has implicated all of us, as a nation, by identifying us as now enthusiastically complicit in the islamist-left wing totalitarian/genocide agenda.
“The next four years are going to be an object lesson to those who voted for him that appearances are deceiving.”
Actually, many who voted for him are very much with him on these affairs. It will be another decade before the Obamatoads learn their own unique lesson in “what goes around…..”. Support the Tea Parties! Buy guns and simultaneously join the NRA, if you haven’t already. We have to make a focussed and qualitative political statement to the left that, even (only marginally) outnumbered, we are not surrendering to their ideological poison voluntarily…
Crittenden sums it up when he says, “It was not a bow, it was a posture malfunction.”
“It wasn’t a bow.” said an Obama aide
What a load of, ummm…Shi’ite. 😡
Looks like a bow to me.
BUT
said an Obama aide, who spoke on the condition of anonymity.
Why stay annoymous if you’re an aide DEFENDING the President?
Fails the smell test.
I will feel bad only if the White House makes an official denial. Which I can’t find anywhere.
You may note that while you brought up a one-time use of the word “Austrian,” Obama was busy actually using bits of various foreign languages wherever he went, probably including German, although I only listened to Czech and Turkish.
This I believe also ties in with this incident. I would be zealous to learn a variety of foreign language phrases and cultural gestures too if I was traveling the world, especially in Obama’s position. This bow is probably a result of a split-second stupid decision built up from such self-consciousness – and yes, it is clearly a bow. To attribute any greater meaning to that, however, and to point it out in any manner other than humorously indicates that how truly ridiculous people can be. Lighten up – and please continue to criticize reality.
“”This bow is probably a result of a split-second stupid decision built up from such self-consciousness
Peter the Alaskan Kid””
Lol…Its becoming clear that Obama himself will single handedly create the mind hoops his supporters will have to jump through, that even they will unnavoidably arrive at a day when they resent the circus tricks the SOB has forced them to perform.
It was a bow.
Assertions by the Obamomites that “He grasped his hand with two hands” fails miserably as an excuse when the video is played – especially in slow motion.
The One’s left hand is at his side completely through the entirety of the bow. It is only with his right hand that he is reaching out towards the Saudi King and it is only after the bow that he brings his left hand up.
Assertions that it was because The Messiah is so much taller likewise fall flat.
The One bowed down until his head was BELOW eye level of the Saudi King, and his head tilted down such that he was looking at the floor – not at the Saudi King.
Personally, I don’t think this President of the World knew any better. He was being ignorant (again) – not only of international matters but also of US protocol.
US Presidents NEVER bow in a subserviant manner to the leader of another nation.
Yes, the bow was subserviant.
Before anyone tries to say it’s equal to a bow in Asian nations, keep in mind that a bow in those nations that practice this type of greeting is a meeting of equals – each person bows to the other.
In this case, only the US President was doing the bowing.
And yes, this does play against US interests.
Anyone in the Middle East is going to interpret this as a subserviant bow, and it’s going to bring with it an attendent loss of respect for the stature of the US President as well as the nation he leads.
Moslem extremists will likewise use this as “proof” of their superiority to the infidel.
As for bows in martial arts – again it’s a greeting of respect and there are various methods that are acceptable or unacceptable depending on which culture you’re dealing with.
Years ago (wayyyy too many years to contemplate at the moment) I was involved in martial arts and the whole bowing thing was explained to me.
In some nations, you bow and look towards the floor, in other nations you bow but tilt your head back and keep your eyes on your opponent’s eyes. In all cases however, BOTH parties are bowing to each other as a sign of respect.
This bow didn’t fall into that catagory.
Sham Wow. Bow wow. I think I’d better cut back on the gin.
Of course it wasn’t a bow!
Look, bent knee, swept arms… It was clearly a curtsy. Come on, people.
Peter, like you I expect it was an impulse; although a bad one.
The problem now is that they chose to lie about it. And lie badly.
Even I could be more inventive. “He noticed the King’s magnificent diamond ring and bent down for a closer look”.
Dishonest. Uncreative. Clueless.
No, Steve, I seldom agree with Peter’s interpretation, but I think he’s got this one right. If Obama and his handlers had discussed this for 4.5 seconds, he would have been told “no bow, dumbass. You’re the president of the US.” Obama is essentially a shallow person. This is precisely the sort of showoff gesture of those who believe they always know more than the rubes. Bowing is a mark of respect in this culture. I’m going to show everyone how culturally sensitive I am, because I am an elite internationalist who Knows These Things. It is very much of a piece with showing off having learned a few Czech or Turkish phrases. These people believe that they just naturally fit in and inspire with these culturally sensitive gestures. If he/they had actually bothered to ask anyone who knew, they would have learned that the bow is not only a gesture of respect, but of deference and even submission.
They are absolutely sure that they know, and that all criticism can be ignored, because it comes from ignorant bigots like us and never has any substance. This is precisely the way he is handling economic and appointment decisions as well. He’s winging it, thinks he knows better than anyone.
Shallowness plus narcissism. It explains a great deal.
It’s so clearly a bow that for anyone from the White House to lie about it is pathetic. However bad the bow was, a blatant lie about something everyone can see and judge for themselves is worse. (Think “it’s the cover-up, stupid.”)
Sure it’s a small thing, but didn’t we elect Obama for his “judgment”. What happens when he gets that 3 AM phone call and rushes into something similarly, yet much more highly dangerously, stupid?
Why is anyone surprised. On the trip he continually reminded us that his foreign policy will not be the same as the last eight years. He has made that evident at every juncture.
Actually I see this as a Forest Gump moment. He was showing the Saudi King which part of his anatomy he has been showing the Republicans and the American people since he took office.
The first big lie was the “I never heard Wright say these things” howler.They got away with that one didn’t they?
When you lie and the proof is available for all to see that it was a lie,what kind of arrogance is that ?
Gathering with family for Easter.I hope no one brings up his name.
I think it may be a part of the new language being developed for the Obama Nation. Question: When is a bow not a bow. Answer: When Barak Obama is taller than a foreign dignitary…then it is an equalizer. Or: Obama didn’t bow, he tripped (see his right leg extended behind him?) and the gracious Saudi King helped him maintein his balance. “Ignore the man behind the curtain!”
Levity aside, the world’s political arena is a far cry from school yard antics of picking on the new kid. Where the latter usually leads to some embarrassment, maybe at worst (in my day) a bloody nose, the former scrutinizes every move, of every leader, looking for expolitable weaknesses. Having a world leader, inexperienced in world politics, over-estimating their own capabilities while under-estimating the intent and desire of other world leaders, or leaders within their own borders, has often led down the path of disaster.
This bow is probably a result of a split-second stupid decision built up from such self-consciousness
Peter the Alaskan Kid
I suspect you nailed it there.
To me, the major stupidity is the orchestrated denials being made in the face of the video evidence.
Will there be a major operation to remove those youtube videos wherever they surface (similar to the one conducted against the original video of the Saturday Night Live skecth about the bailout)?
That sounds like a good way to insure its’ immortality.
–
Scottie (above) notes the head position. The head is in line with the bend of Obama’s torso, not cocked upward to look at the Saudi King. When you’re shaking someone’s hand you look at them; when performing an act of obeisance, you avert your eyes and look down. Even if Obama had his eyes looking up, with his head in this position he could not make eye contact with the king (historically, the point of such an action of submission).
Even Ann Althouse, who is generally supportive of Obama is wondering just how dumb “they” think we are.
Well, it was a tradition for the US NOT to dip the flag to the Head of State presiding over the Olympic Games.
HBO in the picture was in the classic pose of an ass-kisser. True to life…
What an Asshole we got…
I find it far fetched to be a spur of the moment blunder. Just more apologising, this time presented with coreography.
Maybe he was looking down to make sure his shoes were tied so he didn’t trip and fall flat on his face in the prone position in front of the king. Thus appearing as if he were subjugating himself before royalty. Yeah right!
Chomsky and Alinsky both state that if you put out a lie and repeat it long enough, it becomes the believable truth and the new focus of attention. Like grasping with two hands?
It looks to me like one arm which a hand is attached to, was at the “O”‘s side as he bent forward. I guess I need new glasses.
Bush’s hand-holding didn’t signify obeisance. It’s a common thing in Arabic cultures. He may have done it to make them feel welcome.
As for this, yeah — it sure looks like an aborted bow. I don’t believe the ‘holding with two hands’, unless the King’s a midget.
Obama = JFK Lite. Even JFK was JFK Lite, in fact; he was a mediocre President who accomplished little, apart from so underwhelming Khruschev that the latter decided to test him and thereby brought the world to within an RCH of nuclear war. Oops. Had JFK ducked at the operative moment he would not have one-tenth the reputation he does today.
JFK’s famous “Ich bin ein Berliner” (instead of “Ich bin Berliner”) was actually pretty funny, since “ein Berliner” is a pastry. People cheered, because they knew what he meant, but it illustrates the hazards of trying your hand at another language that you don’t actually speak: you might “overcharge” and need to “reset.”
I agree. It would be nice if the President of the United States had a bit more presence of mind than this. Obama’s spent his whole life currying favor and ingratiating himself with others, and apparently can’t stop now. He wasn’t there on a campaign stop, but to represent the United States. Would someone please explain that to him?
And he should fire his protocol officer, if such exists (for which there is zero evidence so far). Obama in his appalling ignorance appears unaware that national leaders maneuver to appear to be the dominant person in the room (e.g., by using expansive gestures, guiding others ahead of them, being in the center, and other devices of body language). Bowing — to anyone, at anytime — is definitely out.
It’s going to be a long four years…
Oh, absolute balderdash. Of course it was a bow. What, do they think we’re all idiots?
Neo, have you seen this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gJtIss7xso comparison of the two bows? Or did I get that from you somewhere?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dUH_sUg1Sbs&NR=1
“JFK’s famous “Ich bin ein Berliner” (instead of “Ich bin Berliner”) was actually pretty funny, since “ein Berliner” is a pastry. People cheered, because they knew what he meant, but it illustrates the hazards of trying your hand at another language that you don’t actually speak: you might “overcharge” and need to “reset.” ”
Apparently his Algonquin is a little rusty, too. Or is “Massatoosits” one of those extra 7 or 8 states he says we have.
marine’s mom: Yes, they think we are all idiots. And perhaps they are close to being correct. Apparently, you can fool enough of the people enough of the time to get away with an awful lot. And maybe they’re also counting on a lot of inattentiveness.
My personal guess as to the genesis of the bow is that he was trying to show respect, and was simply unaware of the tradition of US Presidents not bowing, and of the deeper reasons behind this. This (and the lie told in the coverup, if in fact it is a true quote from a White House official) is what troubles me the most: there is quite a bit of evidence that Obama is ignorant of much of the history and tradition of his own country, and seems not to understand its basic underpinnings. If he isn’t ignorant of it, he is certainly determined to defy it.
neo, Obama is pretty much ignorant of everything, in my opinion, except how to twist the truth and manipulate public opinion. He’s demonstrated precious little knowledge of anything related to the real world in all the time I’ve been watching him.
Let’s see, a bow or a big wet smoochie smoochie right on the lips?
http://www.hermes-press.com/bush_kiss.jpg
Let’s see, a bow, or a lovey-dovey stroll holding hands?
http://my2bucks.files.wordpress.com/2009/01/bush-saudi-hand-holding-1.jpg
I’ll take the bow, retarded and awkward as it appears.
Neo, can you direct me to your posts lambasting Bush for his demeaning shows of fealty to our Saudi overlords?
The “he didn’t bow” meme seems to have originated with Politico, and is attributed to “an Obama aide, who spoke on the condition of anonymity.” Convenient, that.
Kamper:
You are an idiot. From a UK website on “travel etiquette in Saudi Arabia”:
When meeting and greeting in Saudi Arabia, it is usual for close male counterparts to shake hands and kiss on each cheek. However, if meeting under more formal circumstances, a handshake between members of the same sex is fine. Always use your right hand when engaging in a handshake, as the left hand is considered unclean. Each person present will be greeted individually, and it is expected that you do the same. You should expect to undertake a considerable amount of small talk, and learning a few Arabic greetings would be well received. Saudis will stand closer to each other than many westerners are used to, and members of the same sex will often touch arms when postulating or emphasising a point.
…and yes, the “anonymous aide” is convenient…for the White House, who can always deny the idiotic denial.
It was NOT a bow. Anyone who both views the video and listens carefully to the audio will reach that conclusion. As Obama approaches the King to shake hands, he can clearly be heard to say, “Oh, look, a quarter!” immediately before the “dip.” Anyway, this makes more sense than the “official” White House version of the event.
I was going to point out that was the traditional greeting amongst equals but stumbly beat me to it.
Of course therin lies the problem with Obama and his supporters – ignorance coupled with a supreme belief in their own knowledge even when it is woefully lacking.
It still amazes me how arrogant they can be about their positions – Kamper *has* to know he/she never bothered to look at the meanings of those gestures yet is absolutely certain he/she is correct.
kamper: You will note that I linked to that Politico piece when I mentioned the explanation offered by the White House. I assumed readers could, and would, follow the link.
I’m not keen on Bush smooching and hand-holding with the Saudi, but since neither he nor anonymous White House spokespeople lied about whether he did or did not do so, I certainly didn’t write about it at the time. It’s the lie that motivated me to write about Obama’s bow here.
Later on, in the comments, I added my impressions of the bow itself. I stand by them.
You show a similar ignorance of history and tradition on this subject as Obama, which hardly surprises me. Hand-holding and kissing are culturally accepted between men in Arab countries as signs of friendship and cordiality. They are between equals. Bows, on the other hand, in Arab culture and in most of the world, are signs of subservience between unequals. There is no particular reason a president couldn’t or shouldn’t smooch with any world leader, if he/she so desired, although you could object on the grounds of taste or familiarity. This is entirely and qualitatively different from the objections to the bow, which is an American President being subservient in a way that negates deep American traditions involving our revolution and its change in attitudes towards royalty.
“The first big lie was the ‘I never heard Wright say these things’ howler.They got away with that one didn’t they?”
Yes, they did. It was at that point that his campaign should have been over. The media and every other candidate should have hounded him out of the race for being a blatant, bald-faced liar. Who needs a president like that? And if it was any other candidate they would have. But the press had put all their chips in the pot for him already and weren’t about to throw them all away so they went all in and labored mightily to cover for him. And I guess they got away with it. I mean it’s such a howler, as you said, that there’s no other rational explanation that is reality-based.
“This bow is probably a result of a split-second stupid decision built up from such self-consciousness – and yes, it is clearly a bow.”
I agree, Peter. I think your comment is very, very perceptive and I think that’s exactly what happened.
I don’t think I agree with your reaction, though. A president, any president, has to be much more in control of himself than this, especially when meeting foreign leaders. Split second stupid decisions are off the table when you become president and you’re presiding over foreign relations. It’s yet another sign that Obama wasn’t ready for the presidency, and although it’s small, it’s telling. He needs to grow up quick and learn what his job is really all about (representing American interests, not throwing them under the bus) before he lands us all in a deep pile of …. something.
Which country would that be? /g
Seriously, though, the problem is that Obama is not constitutively an American; his Americanism is an after-market add-on. He doesn’t intuitively and reflexively react as an American, but seems almost to calculate consciously (“Hmm, how would an American react? I’ll do that.”) how to comport himself, which is why he hits sour notes. In this he’s more like a naturalized citizen, but without the burning patriotism for this country that they so often have. He’s more of a “two cheers for America” kind of guy. That’s why he had no problem with Jeremiah Wright, or Bill Ayers: they hate a country with which Obama has only a tenuous connection.
Can Obama hit a baseball? Can he throw a spiral with a football? Trivial, prosaic considerations — but how many American men would flunk them? And yet I bet Obama would. Can you picture him at a baseball game? If he gets dragged there I bet he’ll look as comfortable as a dog getting a bath. And if he ever has to throw out the ceremonial first pitch, I can’t wait for him to reprise Kerry’s girly-man throw. The YouTube of that will definitely be a keeper.
The point is that he’s not really an American. He has a piece of paper that says he’s one, but that’s not the same thing. Legally he is, but culturally, viscerally, fundamentally — he’s not.
Occam’s Beard: What you wrote about Obama’s essential (not necessarily de jure) “foreignness,” is pretty close to the draft of a post I’ve already sketched out.
Neo, great minds and all that.
(Trying to earn some grace for the “estrogen” wisecrack on the other thread. /g)
“[He] was simply unaware of the tradition of US Presidents not bowing”
I think this assumption would be a lot stronger had he also bowed to the Queen of England. But in that case, he knew enough to greet her with no more than a nod of the head. Michelle Obama, on the other hand, knew so little of protocol that she went up and hugged her. I guess there can be a bit too much awareness of equality of position too.
I’ll also point something else out here based on the picture of Bush Kissing/holding hands. You do realize that the King of Saudi Arabia greeted, and accepted, the greeting of an equal?
He is also the Custodian of the Two Holy Mosques, a VERY high job for any Muslim. There are only a handful of people in the world that would not be, hmm, severely punished for *not* bowing to them let alone greeting as an equal. Obama met him as a servant and was accepted as such.
I’m sure this somehow make the Alaskan Kid and especially Kamper somehow warm and fuzzy this is so, yet I shudder to think what those others that take this stuff for real are thinking now. Nor do I think that Obama was totally ignorant of this – I wasn’t well before this incident and I’m a Redneck East Tennessean.
Again we are left with either ignorance of a HUGE magnitude or an intentional homage. Bush never made them of this magnitude (indeed, we note in those pictures the Suadi King isn’t flinching and embraces an equal) and was an idiot – what does that make Obama? Neither choice is a good choice, though at least in this case many are choosing stupidity – more often than not they choose dishonesty.
Though I rather suspect that in this case it is because there is no way to rationalize away an intentional thing. I somewhat agree that it was off the cuff and immediately seen as stupid (Obama’s face and body language afterward is as such). Though I more suspect he figured on a similar greeting back and didn’t get it. I also rather suspect that his position in the Muslim world had something to do with it too (not necessarily that Obama is muslim – the court is still out on that one, especially given some of his world tour comments – but more because he would feel that this position commands a larger amount of respect and thus the bow over the kiss).
I mostly figure he expected a similar bow in return and was angry he didn’t get it – ignorance of an extreme that even Bush would not have done (Ignorance coupled with a true narcissist psyche). I’m also still not so sure that the State Department isn’t playing politics and screwing the Clintons (and by proxy Obama) – bet even then at this point I would at least have someone I trust checking things (assuming this protocol also came from the State and not Obama himself).
The whole incident is so clunky and graceless, it puts me in mind of the old aphorism about politicians being like baboons, in that the higher they climb, the more you see of their asses…
Doubly apt in this case. Obama is not usually a physically awkward guy, but it looks like his brain and his body had a disagreement. Why did he do it? It’s hard to tell, but it’s a sure bet he’s sorry now.