The second debate
First, a bit of liveblogging.
McCain is hitting Fannie and Freddie and the Dem role in at—he says Fannie/Freddie was “the catalyst”—but the points have to be so rushed that I wonder if people even know what he’s getting at.
Obama of course deflects onto “dereguation.” Can people sort this out in a sound bite? I doubt it. And Obama gets the last word on this.
[Hmmm—I think some of my hatred of the shallowness of debates is coming out here.]
The set is harsh and stark; rather ugly and hard on the eyes. Everyone looks uncomfortable, even the audience.
McCain: “Let’s look at our records instead of our rhetoric.” Nice rhetoric there!
One minute seems a ludicrous amount of time to offer. Who came up with that idea? Oh, here’s the answer from Brokaw: they did. Or at least they agreed to it. But just because you’re rushing, it doesn’t mean you should sound rushed—which so far, McCain does. This format is inherently unserious, and we deserve better.
Obama as Hoover! I like it.
Many people respond to demeanor in these things, and McCain sounds more nervous than Obama—and more nervous than he usually does in this format.
McCain is repeating himself, which is a very bad thing, because it emphasizes the age issue. But then he does make a good point about Obama’s failure to keep his promises on taxes when he came to the Senate.
I expect Obama to say the first thing he would do is slow the rise of the oceans.
If I weren’t liveblogging this thing I wonder whether I’d be able to watch it. Boring, disjointed, repetitive, meaningless. And pretty humorless as well.
America’s role as peacemaker? What’s this guy referring to—paying our UN dues? McCain sees it as a way to talk about decisions about war.
And now both are repeating their talking points from the last debate.
Forget the Bush Doctrine. Now we’re going to hear the Obama Doctrine and the McCain doctrine. Sort of. Both are against genocide, it seems.
McCain is making a decent point here about only intervening if you can be effective. My guess is that Obama will answer by saying we didn’t do that in Iraq.
McCain is correct about the stupidity of Obama’s announcement that he would attack Pakistan.
Now they both want followups. Which I actually think is a good idea.
Obama seems to forget that Iran and North Korea are enemies, and Pakistan is an ally. Sheesh.
This is a puzzling experience. Both candidates are speaking so repetitively and with so little ooomph that it is hard to attend to whatever content there might be. My guess is that the small proportion of people who have managed to make it through so far and are still watching will focus more on appearance than the almost-nonexistent or perhaps meaningless content. In that case, Obama wins. He looks better, and his voice sounds better.
Summary: an empty and ultimately discouraging evening, because neither candidate inspired confidence or displayed energy. They both repeated their talking points and added almost nothing to what we’ve already heard time and again. Even if they had tried to do more, the one-minute format made it nearly impossible.
A double train wreck, IMHO.
Or, as one commenter put it: “we are in serious trouble.” That’s “we,” meaning the whole country. These are difficult times, and we need someone especially sharp to deal with them. The current crop doesn’t fit that description. McCain seems to lack expertise at anything but foreign policy; and Obama is not only utterly clueless but he’s utterly clueless about the fact that he’s utterly clueless.
I’m actually muting my tv when Obama speaks. I can’t take this repetitive sound bite robot anymore.
ZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz…… zzzzzzzzz…… wake me when this droning bit of blather is over…..
Both are borrrrrrring..,,,,
My question is… not who is ready to lead, but,
Which of the two is man enough to be President?
Yes, very boring. The only reason I’m not zoning out more is I’m writing about it!
neo, I call it “affirmative action lending.”
That says it all.
I’m split. I don’t know which element is more boring… the candidates, the moderator, or the audience….
Would somebody please, please, throw a punch?
Maybe someone in the audience will.
The audience is on ludes.
I have just skated over several live-blogging sites and the consensus seems to be 1) it’s boring and 2) McCain seems shaky and old.
I’m hoping McCain points out that yes we did intervene in the Holocaust.
mrs whatsit—he does seem shaky and old. I wonder what that’s all about, because he didn’t sound that way last time, or at Saddleback. I think it’s connected to the rushed format.
I find myself wanting Palin. I don’t care who the opponent is.
chuck: I certainly wish it were Palin and Biden again. That one was fun.
I’d settle for Dukakis and Bush 1.
Liveblogging sucks. We both had an hour and a half of our lives eaten away. And I had so many other good things to do… I kind of feel like forgetting about the election until the votes are in; I won’t get to put make one anyways.
McCain lost almost every point. He was especially weak on healthcare. Of course his plan is written by the HC lobby and designed to effectively take coverage away from those who most need it.
Only on Pakistan and the Russia questions did he sound as if he knew what he was talking about.
The Israel question was idiotic. Iran waging war on Israel? How long would that last? 5 minutes?
Most importantly, he lost the “look and act” test. Unfortunately that’s what counts for most viewers.
lol sweet combination of “put one in” and “make one” at the end there…
The open ended question format made it too easy for both candidates to repeat their campaign stump speeches. They should have asked simple “yes or no” questions. Maybe even game show style having both answer simultaneously with buttons then revealing their answers visually and allow them time to explain their answer only if they responded differently.
And now Jackscrow shows up pretending something actually happened, putting the B in boring.
I’m glad I did not watch. And I don’t need to, since I had decided months ago I was going to vote for McCain. More definitively, there was absolutely no way I would even consider Obama. I know all the policy positions, advisers, voting records, character, history, et al. Debates are for people who still have not made up their minds. Now, THAT’S a serious problem. There is no lack of information out there for people to obtain, if they want it. There is a reason why I call a lot of people who are independents (not all of them) The Middle Muddle. Rush Limbaugh said it today: he called them mushbrains. Which is what they are.
The media is doing a TERRIBLE job of reporting on the campaigns and candidates. I should say The Big Media or the Old Media. If people are guided by these idiots, then they are worse than idiots.
I thought, as in the first debate, McCain effectively won more points than Obama, but once again, he let too much of Obama’s sleaze and misrepresentation slide through unchallenged, and, with the exception of the Fannie and Freddie references early on, he didn’t go after Obama like people were expecting him to do.
All in all, I think these debates are boring, they’re not really debates, and they are fairly useless. I doubt this one changed anyone’s mind. Even some of Obama’s more extreme answers (healthcare is a right, increasing taxes on small businesses that make more than $250,000 a year, how he would deal with Iran, invading Pakistan, etc.) didn’t sound as unreasonable as they should have.
For what it’s worth, Obama also looked better in this debate than he did in the first one. In the first one, he was grotesque to look at and McCain seemed more focused and upbeat. Tonight Obama looked better, though he spouted more than his usual quota of B.S.
It’s scary to think that people might base their vote on this drivel. Nothing is new; nothing old is clarified or rebutted. Obama hasn’t even learned to keep his nose out of the air and that smug look off his face. Makes me wish I had been there with a nice gooey cream pie.
Well, so much for a post debate bounce. What else does McCain have?
I cannot even stand to watch that man or hear him speak, because I think Neoneocon had him down pat months ago: a classic narcissist. His demeanor alternates between being patronizing and being grandiose.
If people are too stupid to pick up on that, then they deserve the pain we are about to get during the next four years.
If I were Jewish, which I am not (Roman Catholic, for good and for bad), I would tear my garments in rage over the extent of the ignorance I am witnessing in these times we live in.
FredHjr: Good timing for that, since tomorrow evening is the start of Yom Kippur.
I actually did fall asleep, about 1/2 hour in. So it wasn’t just me.
rickl: Maybe they’ll be able to package and market a tape of this debate as a sleep aid. At least it’ll be good for something.
It’s not exactly the Lincoln/Douglas debates, is it? Apart from the fact that few if any modern politicians possess that level of oratorical and rhetorical skill, nobody today has the attention span to watch it.
FredHjr —
I am (Jewish) — and actually I’ve come closer to tearing all my hair out waiting for McCain to use all the ammunition he should be using, but is not.
I think McCain looked older and shakier in this venue because Obama is tall and gangly and can use his arms and hands freely to add emphasis to his (rather boring and repetitive words).
McCain, because of his war injuries, appears — actually IS — stiff due to very restricted motion. He’s also slightly stooped (again I believe due to injuries) and the visual of McCain next to Obama just is not flattering.
I just don’t know what to think, except the vision of the Obamas in the White House makes me ill………… The thought of his making recovery of the economy near impossible with his plans, let alone destroying what’s left of it when surrounded by a Democratic Senate and House……. Anyone know of a cryogenics lab that can freeze humans for 4 years or so and bring me out of it when it’s all over?
(By the way, a little off-topic but….did anyone catch the bit NBC did yesterday or the day before? NBC crew went to N. Vietnam to interview the warden of Hanoi Hilton while McCain was there — so he could tell Americans what REALLY happened. Following is just one of numerous articles on this “scoop” for the Peacock network: http://www.newsmax.com/timmerman/NBC_profiles_obama_mccain/2008/10/02/136606.html
csimon, neo
Even though I am not Jewish I wish you both a blessed Yom Kippur.
csimon,
It is insulting that after all these years, despite the witnesses among his fellow servicemen and no doubt the reports McCain had to compose when he got home, these insulting, craven f**ks think they are going to find dirt on him in Hanoi!
Now we definitely know with utter clarity and certainty that the Left, the Big Media journalists, the Party of Jackasses, and Obama have no respect for the U.S. military.
My brother and I watched it together. He’s gone Lib, unfortunately, and is for Obama. That said, we agreed here and there that one or the other made a good point, or missed one. And we agreed that there was very little new. In the end, we did some repairs that needed to be done as we watched.
This one probably won’t change any minds.
But I’d disagree about McCain looking feeble. While some of his joints are damaged, I thought he moved around quite well–actually, I thought he made a point of it–and more or less matched Obama’s physical animation.
McCain (RINO), the mainstream democrat, blathering about the government buying bad mortgages and renegotiating terms, while Obama (DINO), the socialist, drones about his ten year (Great leap forward!) energy independence program; From my friends, my friends, my friends… to Obie’s pie in the sky total ignorance concerning the realities and relationships of Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iran, etc., while both genuflect to the great global warming scam. It’s the europeanization and dumbing down of America, at the worst possible time, we are in serious trouble.
I really do not want Obama to win this election but have to admit that McCain lost me after the first question. I turned the TV off, I knew this was going to be too painful to watch. Looks like I didn’t miss much and that pains me even more. I am a legal alien from Europe and not eligible to vote which is probably just as well because as much as I do not want Obama I really have no hot feelings for McCain, either.
In retrospect, I think McCain did alright. It was painful to watch though. I don’t think hitting hard is who McCain is – but I think he is more than up to the job of President, better at the job than as a candidate, Barack, the opposite.
Thank You, csimon – I saw that over the weekend, and could NOT BELIEVE what I was seeing. Even though I told someone months ago that by November the media would have McCain running the torture camp in Vietnam.
Amazing!
And all the polls after the debate …
Are they laughable or what! CNN takes a poll and guess who wins the debate? MSNBC takes a poll and guess who wins the debate? FOX takes a poll and guess who wins the debate?
Really it’s not only the MSM. LGF puts a poll up and guess who wins the debate? DailyKos puts a poll up and guess who wins the debate?
They could both fall dead on the stage and the poll results would still be the same … sheesh!
Thinking it over this morning, what was missing from that debate was passion. Neither candidate seemed to have any — McCain seems to have run out of gas and Obama was empty to start with.
Come to think of it, there is exactly one candidate in this race with passion, incisiveness, zest and will. The other three pale beside her.
Pale, Palin, hmm. Must go to work.
Obama gets this one simply because McCain was not able to land a really hard punch. As the nominal leader, his strategy is to coast to the finish line, which gives me hope that McCain might pull off an upset. But this debate didn’t help the cause because it produced from both men re-statements of known campaign positions rather than an idea of the leadership potential. I’m glad McCain discussed the Freddie Mac/Fannie Mae connection to the credit crisis. Obama simply tried to lie his way out of it and reproduced the dem talking point that lack of regulation was to blame. I wish he had been asked: give one example of a regulation that would have added real equity to those billions of dollars worth of bogus home values.
I watched hoping SOMETHING would happen with McCain… I’ve now given up on him. He’s just too weak of a candidate. Combine Palin with anyone else who ran for the Repub. nomination and there would be a totally different dynamic.
Realclearpolitics shows BHO over the 270 mark… the election is over. Now my only hope is that enough Republicans retain their seats that the Dems don’t have total carte blanche… but I’m afraid McCain will drag them down with him. This is really depressing. I wonder what the country will look like in 4 years.
Palin–’12!
1. Overall, boring as hell.
2. “Let’s look at our records instead of our rhetoric” — was the best line.
3. Obama’s response to “that one” should have been, “I’m not a ”that one'”
Jack,
Why don’t you do your own poll, then. Try not to restrict it to NeoCon blog readers though — it would be more skewed than the MSM polls.
McCain missed too many openings. He didn’t listen to Obamas replies and let too many opportunities pass. He referred to his notes to remember the questions, and that looked weak.
Obamamania didn’t turn in a strong performance, but McCain would have done better if he hadn’t shown up.
“My friends”. How many times? Thirty?
He missed the opportunity to really connect the Dems and the Fannie/Freddy debacle.
He had a chance to go for the kill on that and either chose not to, or flat-out wiffed.
No mention of Ayers either, but that may not have been a mistake. That is only flying with his supporters right now.
McCain lost the “look and act” test. Unfortunately that’s what counts for most viewers.
I stayed awake through the whole thing, and noticed a few interesting items.
1. McCain has plenty of money – he should purchase a decently tailored suit that doesn’t leave him looking like an organ grinder’s monkey.
I understand the man has war injuries and that those are responsible for his stooped posture and overall stiffness, but there are things that he can do to mitigate the image he presents physically when standing next to The Chosen One.
It is an unfortunate fact that some people will make their decision simply on appearances of “stiffness” and he has to mitigate that as much as possible.
2. Who selected the seating? The Messiah was clearly able to seat himself with ease and lounge about, while McCain had the option of either awkwardly leaning against the seat (which he did most of the debate) or awkwardly hopping on and off of the overly high stool in an inelegant and unpresidential fashion.
Awkward.
3. The venue itself struck me as cheap.
4. Did anyone else catch the discrepency between Biden’s assertion during the Palin/Biden debate regarding how a “surge” would not work in Afghanistan, and how The Great Leader during this debate stated that he would rotate troops out of Iraq and put more boots on the ground in Afghanistan?
Isn’t this a “surge”?
Isn’t this what Bush has already said he is planning to do in his final months in office? Are Bush and Obama in agreement on something?
5. McCain really needed to come out stronger, and more forcefully hit the ties between Obama and Rezcko, Ayers, Johnson, ACORN, etc.
McCain wasted too much time with “my friends” platitudes instead of serving up red meat.
6. This morning they showed some “undecideds” out of VA on FOX. Leaving aside the fact that a certain portion of VA is heavily democrat and may have influenced the instant poll taken after the debate, one woman made the mistake of saying McCain won even though she intended to vote for Obama.
Obama supporters on either side of her immediately argued her down.
I believe such a response by Obamites is seen as typical by the general population and creates an overall “hidden McCain” vote out in the rest of the country, as people see Obama supporters as too fanatical to discuss the election with.
As such, the majority of those willing to voice opinions to pollsters tend to be Obama supporters, and this may be influencing the polling results and artificially inflating Obama’s numbers.
I was surprised to read this. I listened to it on internet radio, and I thought both of them were lively.
That said, I think McCain steamrolled Obama on a number (most) arguments. Obama sounded nervous to me, McCain seemed prepared, eager to share why Obama is wrong. I also thought McCain was better about specifics in the first half of the debate.
On the other hand, I thought McCain did *terrible* the first debate, the exact opposite. I also heard the first one on the radio. Obama sounded confident and thoughtful to me, McCain sounded nervous and unprepared, and Obama caught him in a number of arguments: Obama was running circles around him on some of them.
I’m honestly surprised to hear so many people disappointed. I wonder why we have different perceptions?
-Chris
“We need someone sharp to deal with…”
Of course, the inference here is that your sharper than either one of them. So sharp, in fact, that you can see over the intellectual divide to ascertain the “sharpness” required for the job.
Typical Neo-con arrogance and self-aggrandizement.
McCain’s not an intellectual, but he’s smart enough. Intelligence isn’t his lacking factor.
If you are inferring (and you certainly are) that you are “sharper” than Senator Obama or that he doesn’t have the intellectual capacity to be a great President and to lead the country during complex and troubling times, then I’d think that statement speaks for itself.
Maybe that’s what really bugs your class of neo-con — that with this uppity community organizer present, your no longer the smartest person in the room?
Not “sharp” enough, indeed! lol!
For lack of immunity to socialist demagogery, American public deserve to feel the results of such policies on their own hides to became mature enough to vote for REAL conservatives. I hope that four years of another Jimmy Carter presidency would do the trick.
He is so smart that for 20 years could not figure out that his pastor is a racist? Or that his buddy Rezko is a scoundrel? He is con artist, that’s for sure. But this does not qualify him for presidency.
My but Kurt seems to have immediately turned juvenile here!
A description of my impressions of the debate leads him immediately to accusations of “delusion”, namecalling such as “morons”, and pathetic attempts at pop culture diagnosis of one’s childhood – all without addressing a single issue that was made in my remarks?
I guess I should thank you for your contribution though, as you’ve just made my point regarding one reason for the potential undercounting of McCain votes in the presidential polls.
look lets face it we are wonks who don’t have a clue how the regular Joe sees these things. I think they watch for less esoteric cues. Do I trust this guys gut. Does he look like a president who will not sell me out. Our man wins hands down by that measure. forget the polls. I predict a landslide for Mac.Obama is just not ready, not this time,sorry.
A landslide for McCrazy????
That’s insane.
You people have no idea how the ‘pubs have alienated the populace over the last 8 yrs.
Conservatives haven’t been conservative for a long, long time, and we are going to pay the price.
Paying it now, IMNSHO.
Kurt wrote:
“Maybe that’s what really bugs your class of neo-con – that with this uppity community organizer present, your no longer the smartest person in the room?”
When telling someone they are not smart , it might behoove you to check the spelling of such a simple word as “your” in its proper context.
Blogger GW (at Wolf Howling blog) said…
“This debate format was a real town hall format the way the Salvation Army is an actual army.”
I couldn’t help thinking that myself.
They mentioned that they received thousands of questions from the audience and from the internet, but they ALL had to pass the filter of Tom Brokaw.
Michell Malkin gets some nice ones off once in a while. Her latest:
Who was the Obama plant at last night’s debate?
had the following …
————————————————-
**** ****** e-mailed me the answer:
“The Obama plant was Tom Brokaw.”
Har. Indeed. From my liveblogging last night:
Brokaw gets rolled again: “I’m just hired help here.”
Obama: “You’re doing a good job, Tom.”
Might as well have called him “sweetie.”
————————————————-
I remember the ashen, dour faces of the talking head spinmeisters at cnn, msnbc, et. al and the contrast to the positively glowing faces at fox and there was no doubt as to who won the “look, act test” in the Palin-Biden debate.
Last night it was the other way around.
The faces on the cable networks on both sides said it all.
Such a wasted opportunity. Sad…
I think it will be Sarah vs. Hillary in 2012, should our republic survive until then. Imagine what that will be like.
“Change” of all kinds will occur between now and then. I just hope it is not as drastic as some of the off the wall stuff I hear from dark corners. The whole planet is involved this time. Anyone wanna take bets as to whether Obama is the anti-Christ? We all know when he comes, he is not gonna be wearing horns, have a pointy tail and a pitch fork. He is going to be the prettiest thing this world has ever seen. Everyone will love him, as he will have almost everyone fooled. Like…………..Obama.
McCain sucked; Obama sucked; Tom Brokaw sucked; the audience sucked; the pundits sucked.
I do not believe Sarah Palin will be the republican nominee in 2012. Neither party has a history of promoting a failed VP candidate. And Mrs. Palin is not really doing much good for herself in the media right now.
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