It’s the class war, stupid
Cries that the Democrats have engaged in sexism towards Palin are not misplaced. Palin is also hated for her social conservatism—even by feminists, who acknowledge she’s a woman, but a woman from the wrong side of the issues.
But perhaps even more important to many liberals is that she’s a woman from the wrong side of the tracks. Or at least, that’s the way she’s been perceived.
Forget that she’s a college graduate, with a father who was a teacher. She went to the wrong college—or colleges. She’s a redneck, even if she’s from the far North where the sun hardly shines for half the year. She’s a redneck at heart, don’t you see, with the “mess” of a pregnant daughter and five children herself. How very gross.
She hunts. She fishes. Hubby’s a Marlboro man, minus the cigarettes. She’s a working woman but not an oppressed “worker.” She probably even shops at Walmart and listens to country music.
That’s one of the reasons she was an inspired choice for McCain and the Republicans. Obama tries to appeal to the working class, the so-called “Reagan Democrats” who used to be the heart and soul of the Democratic Party but defected in 1980 and never came all the way back. Hillary was much better at speaking for them without speaking down to them (always a problem for bleeding-heart elitist liberals). But even for Hillary—Ivy-educated, fancy-lawyer Hillary—it was a stretch, and not all that believable.
Enter Palin, whose shout-out to the blue-collar and/or rural world, to the Hillary voters (men and women alike) in Pennsylvania and beyond, has the clear, bell-like ring of authenticity. And it’s not just because she’s a woman, although that doesn’t hurt. It’s because she’s one of them, and they recognize it.
Not since Harry Truman has this group had a candidate who was a genuine product of their world and proud of it. Palin doesn’t really have to tell them she’s for them (although she does)—she shows it, simply by being herself. Although Palin may not be bitter (she seems positively radiant, which adds immeasurably to her appeal), she clings to those guns and that religion with a tenacity that indicates they’d have to pry both from her cold dead hands in the event of her untimely demise.
The Brits, who are more attuned to this class business than we are, seem to get it. At least, that’s the case for Clive Crook, who writes:
If only the Democrats could contain their sense of entitlement to govern in a rational world, and their consequent distaste for wide swathes of the US electorate, they might gain the unshakeable grip on power they feel they deserve….But the fathomless cultural complacency of the metropolitan liberal rules this out…
To avoid endlessly repeating this mistake, Democrats need to learn some respect.
It will be hard. They will have to develop some regard for the values that the middle of the country expresses when it votes Republican. Religion. Unembarrassed flag-waving patriotism. Freedom to succeed or fail through one’s own efforts. Refusal to be pitied, bossed around or talked down to. And all those other laughable redneck notions that made the United States what it is.
Another person who gets it is Jim Nuzzo, a former White House official:
This is an absolutely classic class war fight. It’s the toffs in the Obama camp versus the working people. Sarah Palin is John McCain’s bridge to the working class.
The Democrats like to think of themselves as champions of the working class. But it’s hard to sell that to a group for which you have such powerful disdain.
Neo, you get it! And I think you’re first there. A New York girl, yet!
Friends from New York came to Ohio in the 80’s for the first time and were amazed that we had paved streets, buses, planes, and all the trappings of modern civilization.
That same frame of mind is what has the elite speaking of “flyover country”, a term I always find insulting, as if there is nothing worth stopping to see.
Just farmers, growing their food, factories (fewer each year) manufacturing their wordly goods, Redneck Bible thumpers, too ignorant to know enough to move to NYC, Boston, San Francisco, etc.
It seeps from their pores at times, and will bite them.
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“She probably even shops at Walmart and listens to country music.”
Oh, the horror, THE HORROR!!!
Even worse than that she actually married two walmart employees in the walmart! Gasp.
Articulate, confident rednecks are the worst of the bunch, especially when they are attractive and mask their heritage with professional demeanor and appearance…
This is ideology, stupid. The neo-Marxist ideology elaborated by Antonio Gramshi. It’s basic tenet is that unwashed masses lack “true” class consciousness, and this is the task of progressive intelligentia to instill it into them instead of their “false” class consciousness. For the masses themselves, such attitude is insulting condescension, of course, but progressives can not change their attitude anymore than a leopard can change its spots.
Correct, of course. Palin may turn out to be no better than a hundred other possible presidents, but that is not why she is being criticised. The emotional leakage (I loved that ‘seeps from their pores,’ Sloan) is so uncontainable, even when they know they should shut up.
Neo,
Very interesting perspective, thanks. I’m not yet convinced McCain (let’s not forget he’s the nominee …) and Palin have truly tapped the Reagan Dems; it’s still early days, especially for her.
But if they do — and watch the polls in places like Michigan, Ohio and Pennsylvania for a clue — then it’s game over. In the meantime watching Mr. Obama do his “I’m really one of you” act should be hilarious; can *anyone* see him in hunting gear?
This reminds me a tragicomic episode from Russian history, when, soon after abolishment of serfdom and sensorship in 1861, thousands of bleeding-heart liberals from Moscow and Petersburg went to the country to enlighten peasants. They were appalled to find peasants completely deaf for their ideas, clinging to Chirch, vodka and wife-beating, and their disillusionment was so bitter that many of them became terrorists instead of enlighteners.
I like the graphic. McCain looks Frostian: “And I, I took the road less traveled by…”
Theres a reason the narcissistic intellectual can’t shut up. He can never be wrong so he can’t be humbled.
so , Sergey, you think, that the democrats are communists?
Or the liberals are commies? Fantasies much, durak?
Fine, vote McCain and neoconservatives who are his foreign policies advisers.
Bomb, Bomb, Iran and Russia.
Get your kids ready, Americans, for more idiotic wars…
Yes, Sergey, let us not forget those unmentionable elements of certain class differences, and the shock to the salvationists.
Might Obama have left “community organizing” for Chicago machine politics for reasons in addition to wanting better pay?
Spot on.
sergey: I can’t remember if I ever called your attention to this post about how Russian history and literature informed my politics in the 60s and later, but you might want to take a look at it if you haven’t already.
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First I read neo and Clive Crook, and went “Exactly! Exactly!” Then I read the commenters, and mostly went “Exactly! Exactly! Exactly” all down the line of comments.
I think the left instantly hated Palin because she represents the American Dream. How DARE SHE! How DARE she succeed without affirmative action or wealth or connections to help her! How DARE SHE! She must be destroyed! She must be immediately and mercilessly destroyed, rebuked, discredited, embarrassed – that uppity, uppity woman; that uppity, uppity BREEDER; that uppity, uppity hick from her hick state. DESTROY her!
I never said that democrats are communists, but that cultural Marxism in one or other form became an integral part of liberal worldview after collapse of communism – this is a common knowledge. Reading MoveOn or Daily Kos blogs shows this beyond doubt.
Shuuun the Unbeliever!
BTW – Barack has succeeded, but differently. He has been appointed to posts which amounted to plum, politically correct appointments.
Palin has actually ACCOMPLISHED TANGIBLE THINGS. Accomplishing tangible things is a very different dynamic from receiving plum appointments to positions. It’s a dynamic which contributed to the instant leftist hatred for her.
Here’s what I mean by plum, politically correct appointments:
Barack was endorsed for acceptance into Harvard Law School by Percy Sutton: former lawyer for Malcom X, Manhattan Borough President, and “credible” candidate for NYC Mayor in 1977, according to Investors Business Daily, which also reports on another Harvard Law grad who endorsed Obama’s acceptance into Harvard Law, and who allegedly has interesting associations in his background.
Barack was the first black person to be President of the Harvard Law Review, and also the first person, of any color, to become President of the Law Review without having the highest GPA in his class. The Harvard Law Review was, for Barack, a plum appointment.
As was, I suspect, his opportunity to be a lecturer at University of Chicago Law School. Such is a position sought after by hundreds of qualified scholars who have actually published articles of scholarship and have actually been lecturers at other law schools – neither of which Obama has ever done.
William Ayers tapped Obama to head the Board of Directors of the Chicago Annenberg Challenge.
Alice Palmer endorsed him to run for her State Senate seat.
Illinios State Senate Majority Leader Emil Jones tapped him to run for Senate, saying “I’m gonna make me a U.S. Senator”, then jerking legislation from other Illinois Senators and allowing Barack to take credit for their passage.
Anyway, these are the type examples I am talking about. Oddly, the left is comfortable with success which was acheived via connections with the right people. The left is crazy-out-of-their-minds outraged over success which results from actual, tangible acheivement; and which is accomplished without help from affirmative action, money, or connections. Palin’s success is too realistically American Dream success. It cannot be allowed to stand.
oh, and Sergey, those are hit and run commenters – I can’t think of the word to describe them, but they’ve no interest in mutual discussion which has getting at actual truth as it’s goal. Don’t even worry about responding to them.
Note: Barack denies that William Ayers selected him for the Chicago Annenberg Challenge. I was writing fast, and I shouldn’t have included Ayers name in that sentence.
Nevertheless, Barack was tapped by someone to be the head of that Board of Directors, and to oversee the accounting of their monies, despite having no business or accounting experience whatsoever. So, the point stands, yet I was incorrect to include Ayers name in the sentence.
what is cultural Marxism, Serega ?
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Gcotharn, yer batting 1000, regardless of who appointed Obama, I believe Kurtz will uncover that they worked very closely together, which will prove the lie to the “just a guy in my neighborhood” meme, something MUST stink there or he would be bragging to high heavens about how he was responsible for Millions of dollars. This would have been one of the best comebacks on the experience angle yet he never uses it to my knowledge, why not? I keep hoping the media will be shamed enough by their wall to wall investigation of Palin that they will have to look into it in some detail, far fetched but I can dream.
The argument that Obama has done nothing of significance stands as factual. They wont overcome that. I think that was the master stroke of the Palin selection, it provided a clear contrast that cant be denied, I am surprised Kruathammer still doesn’t see this as he thinks it is a forfeit on the experience issue.
Gcotharn
Note: Barack denies that William Ayers selected him for the Chicago Annenberg Challenge. I was writing fast, and I shouldn’t have included Ayers name in that sentence.
Could you provide me with a link? thanks. I wonder whom Obama claims selected him for the AC, if not Ayers.
Remember that old comeback to the rabid atheist “What? You’re afraid of nuns”? Sarah is the punch line.
The left has been demonizing religion for many years. Then, in front of 40 million people, the Ogre walked to the dais. God surely has a bit of a Satanic sense of humor.
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Gringo,
actually, the denial I remembered turns out to have a come in an Obama Campaign email which called on Obama supporters to disrupt a Stanley Kurtz interview on a Chicago radio show. Part of the email:
Full email story at Ben Smith’s at Politico.
In my memory, Obama or his campaign had publicly denied that Ayers appointed him. I was sorta kinda partially correct. The email to Obama supporters is weak, underground, and not as strong as a public media denial from either Obama or his campaign would be.
Like most who follow this story, I suspect Ayers had a big hand in appointing Obama to that board, yet I’ve no evidence to back that up.
Obama could completely end speculation if he would issue a statement about how he was appointed to the board. That he has not done so raises further suspicion.
neo had an outstanding post on this subject.
Other links:
A terrific NRO editorial on 8/28.
The blogger who has been in the lead, and who originally drove the story: Steve Diamond. Just click and start scrolling. Diamond is a Chicago liberal who doesn’t like Obama and is blogging this story with everything he’s got.
The “American public intellectual and social commenter” who has taken the baton and is running it while upholding a reporter’s proper scrupulous professional standards: Stanley Kurtz of NRO.
Valjean Says:
“Obama do his “I’m really one of you” act should be hilarious; can *anyone* see him in hunting gear?”
I suggest he takes a ride in a tank….
sashal Says:
“what is cultural Marxism, Serega ?”
Humming the rhythm without knowing the song / lyrics.
And / Or, adopting the attitudes without knowing the sources / history of where they came from.
And it’s not all Marxism these days. The cult of the organic, the rallying for culture over globalism (re: classical liberalism), et cetera… these are not Marxist, they’re right wing (the bad old Euro one)…
The ‘left’ allows their candidates to pretend to be pious, because there’s a wink and a nod, you know I only have to do this in order to get elected; they are allowed to pretend to be hunters with the same caveat, they’ll talk family values, they talk about the importance of promoting minorities and women but ignored it when Bush did that based on merit; and now – they are faced with the real deal. No winks. No nods. No pretense.
It hurts their eyes.
can *anyone* see him in hunting gear?
Hunting season is quickly approaching, we may not have to wonder much longer.
Hopefully his staff is smart enough not to pander with such topics. It will be Dukakis in a tank all over again.
I’ve always been fascinated by the highly stylized language of agitprop, which seems to consist entirely of permutations and combinations of the words and phrases “smear,” “fear-mongering,” “war-mongering,” “racist,” “sexist,” “homophobic,” “imperialist,” “capitalist,” “progressive,” among others.
They also consistently use similarly stilted language on the printed placards at their “spontaneous” demonstrations, with such choice phrases as “Hands Off —–, ” “Defend —–,” “Solidarity with —–.” They also always use the same chants (“Hey hey, ho ho. communism’s the way to go,” “What do we want? —– When do we want it? Now!” or something of that ilk.
After years in Berkeley hearing that crap on a daily basis, I often wondered why the leftists didn’t figure out how offputting their tired, stilted language was to anyone who wasn’t already a committed communist.
Sergey, I recommend Tom Stoppard’s new series of plays “The Coast of Utopia.”
The Democrats like to think of themselves as champions of the working class. But it’s hard to sell that to a group for which you have such powerful disdain.
That is what the indoctrination and character assassination is for, Neo. In order to evade those little issues.
Interesting discussion. An under-explored area in this whole class war issue, I think, is that many sophisticated city folk with educations from elite schools and great jobs CAME from working class or small community backgrounds. They do not appreciate hearing people just like their loving parents and grandparents (who sacrificed to make these educations and opportunities possible) dismissed as stupid rednecks and hicks by the media and others blatantly influencing the media. These upscale metropolitan dwellers in question will probably not be wearing McCain/Palen campaign buttons on their clothing or bumper stickers on their cars, but it is a sure thing that the Republican ticket will be getting the support of many of them in November. And when they return to Ohio or Michigan or Missouri or Indiana for Thanksgiving at Grandma’s, there will be lots to talk about!
Sarah Palin:
“Pray for our military men and women who are striving to do what is right. Also, for this country, that our leaders, our national leaders, are sending them out on a task that is from God. That’s what we have to make sure that we’re praying for, that there is a plan and that that plan is God’s plan. So bless them with your prayers, your prayers of protection over our soldiers.”
I don’t know how sane conservatives can stand the Republican cocktail of faith and politics.
Take your god and shove him
My wife is the daughter of an Orthodox rabbi, born in Brooklyn, and lived in NYC until age 38. She married me, a good ol’ boy from AL. after we met at a science fiction convention in Chicago.
When she announced she was engaged, several of her family and friends told her that if she came to AL the Klan would be waiting to lynch her at the airport…. with a straight face.
gcotharn:
Being nominated by acclamation clicks right into that pattern, doesn’t it?
SDN: The Klan never lynches anyone with a straight face.
(Sorry . . . I couldn’t resist, and I see I’ve left myself open to another variation.)
“Pray for our military men and women who are striving to do what is right. Also, for this country, that our leaders, our national leaders, are sending them out on a task that is from God. That’s what we have to make sure that we’re praying for, that there is a plan and that that plan is God’s plan. So bless them with your prayers, your prayers of protection over our soldiers.”
I don’t know how sane conservatives can stand the Republican cocktail of faith and politics.
Whoa…. Whoa…. What’s political in her prayer?
Our leaders are republican and democrat. Our troops are republican and democrat….
Are you so far around the bend that you simply associate ‘the troops’ with Republicans?
Here’s a political prayer:
“God, YHWH, Jesus, Buddha and Be’elzebub or No One, please help the Republicans smite the dirty, dirty leftists this November.”
It was nondenominational, but it was political….
“Whoa…. Whoa…. What’s political in her prayer?”
Are you kidding? She’s telling ministry students at her former church that the US invasion of Iraq is a task from God.
This kind of stuff worries me. It has to at least unsettle somebody here …
This about sums it up …
United States of Jesus
How about saving Jews from the ovens? Would that qualify as a task from God? Or hadn’t wood chippers been invented by the 1940s?
Bottom line: we don’t give a rat’s ass what members of failed and dying societies think, especially when those societies gave us socialism, fascism, and communism, and two world wars. The sooner those societies die, probably the better for mankind.
Toes, you’re getting tiresome. Your next stop is going to be United States of Mohammed. Better start sniffing carpets now, because we’re not going to save your asses again.
Hear, hear, Toes! At last, a lib willing to let the mask slip and reveal one’s true feelings instead of patronizing us the way the left typically does. But alas, you still don’t get it. Read the unedited text of the speech. Palin never said the Iraq war was from God. She was asking for guidance to ensure that the task on which our military has embarked was from God. That’s a world of difference. I’m very much a secular conservative myself, with no particular loyalty to any faith, but I have no problem with a prayer like this.
On the other hand, Neo, you do get it. I’m one of those “Reagan Democrats” who left in 1980 and never came back. I was the child of a unionized family in a big city in the Midwest, but managed to get a good education, thanks to my parents’ and my own hard work. I’m solidly middle-class, tending towards the upper end, and currently live and work overseas. I’ve traveled widely throughout the world, I still prefer cities to rural areas, listen to classical music rather than country, generally drive German or Swedish cars rather than trucks in any form, and can hold my own at a wine tasting. So I “should” be one of BHO’s supporters. But he has no achievements he can call his own, talks down to people like me, and is waaayyyy too close to dirtbags like Ayers and Rizko for my tastes. McCain and Palin, on the other hand, both connect strongly with me.
Say, is that picture reversed left-to-right? I’m looking at McCain’s asymmetrical face; it shows the swelling on his right side (the left as we look), but I recall that the swelling is on his left.
What do you see?
Toes: If one is a religious person—which Ms. Palin most definitely is—one thinks that God is in favor of good and against evil, and that when we promote the former and fight the latter we are doing God’s work and/or God’s will. Ending Saddam’s reign of terror and allowing the people of Iraq to determine their own fate could be called an example of good rather than evil. You may not agree with that formulation. But I assume that it was what Ms. Palin was referring to.
Leftists and atheists (who are sometimes, although not always, the same people) also think in terms of good and evil, or perhaps the better terms in their case would be good and bad. They want to promote their ideas of the good and fight their ideas of the bad, just as religious people do. Leftists and atheists don’t couch their viewpoints in a religious framework, it’s true. But the basic idea is somewhat similar: whether a certain action is morally good or morally bad.
Even Obama, you might recall, asked this in the prayer he left at the Wailing Wall:
Give me the wisdom to do what is right and just.
And make me an instrument of your will.
I have no problem with his religious language. And I have none with hers. Apparently, both were praying that the policies of the US be in accord with God’s will, promoting good and combating evil. Remember, the motto of the US is “In God We Trust.”
Ummm Toes? The quote from the New York times story:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/06/us/politics/06church.html?_r=1&em&oref=slogin
” She also told the group that her eldest child, Track, would soon be deployed by the Army to Iraq, and that they should pray “that our national leaders are sending them out on a task that is from God, that’s what we have to make sure we are praying for, that there is a plan, and that plan is God’s plan.”
She isn’t saying that the task –>IS FROM GOD
ugg got cut off
http://explorations.chasrmartin.com/2008/09/06/palin-rumors/
She’s praying (asking) that it is the right thing.
That’s rumor #23
There are so many smears, there’s a list going
Occam, I’m guessing you didn’t watch the video.
Actually Toes, keep it up. Way to blow it for Obama, I’m sure he appreciates your efforts.
Do you have any idea how this crap sounds to the ‘ordinary blue-collar crowd’ ?
They’re too busy “clinging to guns and religion” so with this crap added on don’t be shocked if the election is completely up for grabs now.
“But the basic idea is somewhat similar: whether a certain action is morally good or morally bad.”
Hostess, there’s a tad more leverage with Good and Evil.
The over-the-top jingoism of American politics is good for a laugh with my friends, but we don’t joke about the religion/politics mix.
Yes, Toes.
Praying that your country is doing the right thing is “over-the-top jingoism” and good for a laugh.
Keep it up, elitist. Way to win an election!
No, I was too busy watching Obama’s pastor say “God damn America.” Now that’s much better, and at least it’s not religious.
The Muslims won’t let you?
The big question is, “what do people in Peru think?” Because to Americans, whatever country you’re in is pretty much of a muchness with Peru.
The over-the-top jingoism of American politics is good for a laugh with my friends
What would you call “over-the-top jingoism”?
Praying that God guide us to do the right thing is just the opposite of jingoism….
Big No One in Particular In the Sky, I pray that Toes sees some good in America. Augment.
Only to the jerks.
Social Dominance? What a load of crap:
SDO-6 questions
1 Some groups of people are simply inferior to other groups.
2 In getting what you want, it is sometimes necessary to use force against other groups.
3 It’s OK if some groups have more of a chance in life than others.
4 To get ahead in life, it is sometimes necessary to step on other groups.
5 If certain groups stayed in their place, we would have fewer problems.
6 It’s probably a good thing that certain groups are at the top and other groups are at the bottom.
7 Inferior groups should stay in their place.
8 Sometimes other groups must be kept in their place.
9 It would be good if groups could be equal.
10 Group equality should be our ideal.
11 All groups should be given an equal chance in life.
12 We should do what we can to equalize conditions for different groups.
13 Increased social equality.
14 We would have fewer problems if we treated people more equally.
15 We should strive to make incomes as equal as possible.
16 No group should dominate in society.
I disagree, not just with every question–I disagree with the very premise of every question.
Look, not everyone has got a great jump-shot, or can swim fast or make a million dollars–and there is nothing the government can do about it….
What does any of that have to do with America?
It’s cultural Marxism and, by definition, Groupthink. Vomitous.
So after all those who vote for McCain because Palin hunts moose and went to a 2nd/3rd tier college, who’s left to vote?
Are we really voting for people because they are “rednecks like me” or because they are a friend of Oprah?
Gray, I’m guessing you didn’t watch the video either.
To understand American jingoism, I suggest you follow Canadian politics a bit, for the contrast:
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canadavotes/
Our federal election just kicked off, and is being held Oct 16.
Gray, I’m guessing you didn’t watch the video either.
I watched the video. I don’t see the problem.
What would you call “over-the-top jingoism”?
To understand American jingoism, I suggest you follow Canadian politics a bit, for the contrast:
I don’t blame Canadians for not liking Canada. Soviet Canuckistan sucks.
Hey, if you say anything positive about Canadian Culture, in Canada, you get sent before The Human Rights Tribunal:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Human_Rights_Commission
“Quasi-judicial”–gotta love that….
The only thing Canadians hate more than the US and George Bush is Jesus.
No, to all Americans. Democrats as well as Republicans. Democrats look to Europe in the forlorn hope that someone will support them, but fundamentally they don’t care about Europe either, nor should they. Our future lies in Asia, not Europe.
And what’s wrong with Peru? Are you prejudiced against Peruvians? Do you think you’re better than them? If so, why?
Btw, Peru has approximately the same population as Canada.
In fact, Toes, I would have a hard time getting all jingoistic about a wretched country that doesn’t even have a free press!:
(from your own link!):
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canadavotes/story/2008/09/08/greens-debates.html
No thanks. Gimme that ol’ red White and Blue with CNN, ABC, Fox News where the candidates decide where and when to attend debates….
As does California.
Toes: go boil your head. Like cabbages, it will probably improve.
She’s talking to ministry students. From a church. And she herself is a professing Christian.
And somehow, she’s supposed to avoid a core belief, which is that Christians should pray constantly, and that God hears our prayers (yes, I’m a Christian, probably as hardcore doctrinally speaking as any other fundy you’ll ever meet), and that this prayer should be along the lines of
i.e.
1. That the task our national leaders are sending them out on is from God as opposed to from Man, from our own pride, or from Satan
2. And that, in the first place, there is a plan, and it is God’s plan
Are you deliberately obtuse, or just a run-of-the-mill troll? If the latter, than I must say it was worth 6/10. You did manage to garner some responses, so it wasn’t half-bad. But you needed to do it too often, which cuts your score down.
Are you deliberately obtuse, or just a run-of-the-mill troll?
He’s no run-of-the-mill troll. He’s Canadian.
They have to hate us, that’s how they know who they are and what they believe….
Well, you guys lost your cool for a few years after 9/11 and you let the authoritarians run the show. Now the USA is, according to virtually every poll, the most hated and feared nation on earth.
Ah, and toes is a Canuckistani, that explains much.
Full disclosure, I’m from Malaysia. Of Chinese descent. Yeah, a minority group twice or thrice over.
Greg, thanks for the irony!
Gray, ditto.
Toes:
The over-the-top jingoism of American politics is good for a laugh with my friends, but we don’t joke about the religion/politics mix.
Like some others in this posting, I am an agnostic once atheist, and I have no problem with Governor Palin’s prayer: she was praying for guidance to do the right thing.
Sneering at another country whose inhabitants don’t see things the way you do is also another form of jingoism. If YOU were not a jingoist, you wouldn’t be sneering so much at us Americans. In any event, you have every right to sneer. Free speech and all that, as we have the right to call you a fool over your inability to understand precisely what Governor Palin was saying.
Have fun with your oh-so-superior so-called Human Rights Commission. You make fun of American Christians because you know they are safe targets. Try saying a minimally critical thing or even something that is not critical at all, about Muslims in Canada, and you know you are in trouble with your so-called Human Rights Commission. Rather like the Europeans who love to poke fun at the Amis but are so very careful to no offend the Russkies and the Muzzies.
When I look at your so-called Human Rights Commission, I have to decide that YES, things ARE superior in the US. Jingoist for a reason!
“Now the USA is, according to virtually every poll, the most hated and feared nation on earth.”
To be feared is very good and useful in many ways, as far as hated, I am not so sure, how many of those “haters” in the poll would jump at the chance to immigrate here? That would change the equation. I remember vaguely a story from a former hostage, Lebanon maybe? His captors railed against the US but when he asked them what they wanted for their future they wanted to come here. It’s all context and most polls leave that out.
The other thing about those polls is who do they call to come help them in an hour of need? I dont remember anyone pleading for Canada to come save them, lately, or ever.
Toes: The over-the-top jingoism of American politics is good for a laugh with my friends, but we don’t joke about the religion/politics mix.
You have to understand that a very significant fraction of Canadians frequently exhibit this sort of barely concealed anti-Americanism. They usually deny that label, even while affecting a condescending mockery, because they sense, maybe only semi-consciously, that the put-downs are really just symptoms of an underlying feeling of national/cultural inferiority and envy — but of course that’s a little hard to admit openly. And so we get that common form of posturing displayed by Toes, above. You can see it elsewhere, of course, but never quite so poignantly.
Nor, for that matter, is it quite so malignant anywhere else — as illustrated,for example, in this response of an “investigator” for one of the notorious (and Orwellian) Canadian “Human Rights Commissions”, when asked what weight he gave to freedom of speech: “Freedom of speech is an American concept, so I don’t give it any value.”
Time for some humor. Here is a video of Weird Al Yankovic’s Canadian Idiot. It does a good job of poking fun at both countries. Take their guns to the mall ? ROTFL
Here are the lyrics to Green Day’s American Idiot for comparison. Methinks Weird Al improved on the original, as Green Day comes of as somewhat pretentious and self-righteous, IMHO.
“You have to understand that a very significant fraction of Canadians frequently exhibit this sort of barely concealed anti-Americanism.”
At least in the french sections I can say it wasn’t “barely concealed”. That was, by far, the worst land I have ever been in my entire life. Outside of the company that invited us and the people we were paying for a service there I can count the number of people who were nice on one hand (and those being payed were simply polite, not really nice and a number of them were outright hostile). This was before Iraq too. The only good thing I can say about there was the food was excellent – a small Brazilian restaurant we ate at was hands down the best food I have ever had.
OTOH Ottawa was the second most pleasant place I have been – the most pleasant being where I currently live. I have yet to find another area in the US that I enjoyed my stay as much as I did there. People were genuinely friendly (even when no money was involved and it would have been easier to be rude) and universally cringed when I said I entered Canada by way of Montreal. To a person the only rude I encountered ended with a french insult.
But then, being from the south (mountains of East Tennessee) I figured anyplace that eats fresh cheese curds and gravy on french fries *has* to be a good place – right? Amusingly enough every single liberal I have known from there cringes when I mention Poutine and assures us that not all of Canada is like that and that I really should visit someplace like Montreal to see the *real* Canada (I smile and nod my head).
Ah, yes, people “hating” America. I see this “hatred” several days a week, when I pass the U.S. Embassy in the foreign city I’ll call home for the next few years. Sometimes, the visa line doesn’t stretch around the block, but usually it does. Most of these applicants are Muslims, incidentally, from a country that does have a fair amount of anti-American agitation. But when you talk to the locals (and I speak the local language fluently), you find out that things are not necessarily as they’re portrayed. Like P.J. O’Rourke some years back, when he was riding around in Beirut with a Hizballah fighter who said “death to America” at every opportunity, but was going to dental school in Dearborn when his visa came through. Why Dearborn and not Beirut, or indeed, Toronto or Montreal? Must be a reason.
I’m no friend of war, but it unsettles me that you are so illogical.
The excerpt from Palin’s speech contains an appeal that all present should pray for discernment. The possibility of grievous error is acknowledged. The only assertions are that we must a) strive to do what is right, and b) pray for wisdom.
Which of these is so troubling? Yes, I know, the trouble is that people pray for wisdom, and imagine that it has been granted. But it is at least a start.
“[T]his, too, was prudence, to know whose is the gift” — Wisdom, 8:21
What i find so disturbing about these idiot bigoted Leftists is that they’ll ask such stupid questions yet think that they are clever!
My dear Toes, what irony would you be speaking about? I am living proof that Americans are NOT uniformly hated and feared around the world. Plus, you know, cultural hegemony does have some impact (although I’m into the anime scene right about now).
Sure, hate and fear are two very powerful emotions. They sort of balance each other out, though. Can you imagine how Pharoah must have hated and feared Moses (and his God), and how bad it must have been for the surviving Egyptians? I’d settle for hate and fear any day, if I have to choose. Just as long as you fear me more than you hate me, we’ll be just fine!
But you know, I know, and pretty much the rest of this blog readership knows, you’re full of it. Do the Iraqis hate Americans? Not those who now live free of Saddam’s tyrannical rule. Do the Israelis hate Americans? The Aussies? The Singaporeans, even? By and large, I doubt it. It is the nature of the beast that tall poppies get chopped down, and America’s the tallest poppy around.
Cultural Marxism is the antipode of Judeo-Christian moral and worldview. It is a secular pseudo-religion aping general Biblical motiffs (original sin, salvation, choosen people, providence, messianic era, good and evil) but substituting in this framework their secular equivalents: private property instead of original sin (with modern variants: rasism and sexism, patriarhy), social liberation instead of salvation (variants: Black Power replacing White Power, as in Liberation Theology, or matriarhy replacing patriarhy, or Third World hehemony instead of First World hegemony); social progress instead of providence; women, minorities, proletariat instead Israel as choosen people; socialist utopia of classless society as a messianic era; social justice and equality instead of good, injustice and inequality instead of evil. There can be many variants, but general framework is the same. I seriously studied both Torah and historical and dialectical materialism, so these analogies did not escape me.
“No, I’m not anti American. What I am is anti stupidity, anti ignorance, and anti bigotry. And I suppose that could be construed as anti American if you’re a stupid, ignorant, bigot.”
– Pat Condell, United States of Jesus, a video running 5:38.
Palin (w critical distance added):
“Pray for our military men and women who are striving to do what is right. Also, for this country, that our leaders, our national leaders, are sending them out on a task that is from the Mighty Unicorn. That’s what we have to make sure that we’re praying for, that there is a plan and that that plan is the Mighty Unicorn’s plan. So bless them with your prayers, your prayers of protection over our soldiers.”
… a task that is from the Mighty Unicorn
Another interesting trait of the modern day lefty, of course, lifted from a variety of stock contemporary texts — the mocking of anyone who believes in a divinity. The fact that this would include virtually everyone in political life at all is either ignored, or taken as simply a sign of one’s own smug and inherent superiority. But, in trying to mimic intellectual sophistication — gotta love that “critical distance”, e.g.! — they end up just coming across as dim and desperate.
No, Toes, sadly, and regardless of Pat Condell, you are an anti-American — of the stupid, ignorant, and bigoted variety.
Toes dismisses US leadership as “authoritarian” while his own country conducts show trials for free speech violations of political correctness.
Unbelievable. Mote in other’s eye; beam in one’s own, anyone?
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“Very interesting perspective, thanks. I’m not yet convinced McCain (let’s not forget he’s the nominee …) and Palin have truly tapped the Reagan Dems; it’s still early days, especially for her.”
McCain convinced a lot of us to cross over well before he chose Palin as his running mate. We are McCain Democrats (Reagan is dead).
Sergey, it’s Gramsci, not “Gramshi.”
Sashall, the Moveon.org crowd, Daily Kos, etc. are not communists. They are useful idiots and fellow travelers of the totalitarian left. But, if and when you attend or observe “anti-war” rallies these days the people organizing them (like International ANSWER) are self-identified communists. They are the useful idiots and fellow travelers of totalitarian Islamism. You know, “Support the Resistance in Iraq and Palestine!” and all that.
Interesting that a number of posters have brought up the so-called Human Rights Commission(s) in Canada, have brought up some cogent points about it, and Toes has not addressed them at all. Guess he admits that the Human Rights Commission scam in Canada is not the greatest thing since sliced bread.
Very interesting that Toes quotes Condell who states that someone who construes him as being anti-American is “a stupid, ignorant, bigot.” very interesting way to address those who disagree with him.
IOW, there is not point in further feeding of this troll. Ignore him.
Mr. Cook says very clearly what I’ve been feeling for a long time. All you have to do is read some blogs – left-leaning or right – to pick up the tone of superiority and condescension that emanates from the modern American liberal. They relentlessly praise their own critical thinking skills and grasp of complexity while insisting that people who do not vote the way they do are simply ignorant. They seem completely deaf to the sound of their own smugness – as if their superior position were simply understood by all and that no one would be irritated by their smugness. Trust me – these people do not understand “regular folks,” do not like them, and would prefer that they not participate in important matters like governing the country. Liberals are the ones with all the answers; the rest of us should just sit at the childrens’ table and be quiet while the grown-ups talk grown-up talk. It’s disgusting and anti-democratic, but there it is.
Condell is like Hitchens, tends to go after all religions equally. His short videos on Islam are hilarious.
“hated and feared”
What’s wrong with that?
We’ve been hated since 1919, by all the Right Sort of People. Or maybe it was 1787. Somewhere back there.
So far, we’ve done okay in spite of it.
Feared is good.
The sooner the idea of messing with the US has the same effect on the person with the idea as a big glass of Mexico City tap water, only faster, the better.
So, Toes. Remind us why your opinion is supposed to be important????
Sergei,
What is the status of Cultural Marxism and its proponents in Russia today? Here in the West all our experts and commentators say the USSR has returned from the grave, but it’s my impression that we are dealing with an older Russia, patriotic, Orthodox and authoritarian.
American Conservatives, who of all people should know that different nations have different political traditions and inclinations, should not be in such a hurry to declare this Russia to be an enemy.
A bit late to the convesation here, but the comment about the O-man in hunting garb brings back the memory of Kerry going into the small general store in Ohio asking “Can I get me a huntin license?” Talk about “Dripping from the pores!” In the words of the famous Dr Evil, “You just don’t get it do you Scott?”
Best news I’ve heard in a long time. The “feared” part, that is; we’ve always been the most hated.
Btw, the New York City police department is larger than the Canadian Army (literally true), so it wouldn’t seem that Canada fears the U.S. all that much.
Sally, the critical distance is an atheist’s point of view, an outsider holding the faith-infused political discourse at arm’s length. If it is a stock contemporary text of the left in the USA, then Neoneocon’s “class war” dims in comparison to the real divide.
How can citizens weigh the pros and cons of government policy if issues [x], [y], and [z] are coupled with religious conviction? I was hoping to hear conservatives voice some concern about this. Just one would be nice.
You couldn’t be more wrong. My next trip to the states is a visit to the National Archives, and I’m looking forward to seeing the Declaration of Independence (I was born on July 4, and I’ve always wanted to see the actual document). You can love the states and hate how the culture war, media manipulation and cynical politicians are ruining it. The Neocons were on their way out, but, oh, in comes the religious right at the last moment. Groan.
Re. discussing Canadian politics, I’d love to, assuming that’s a genuine interest.
kungfu Says:
“So after all those who vote for McCain because Palin hunts moose and went to a 2nd/3rd tier college, who’s left to vote?”
The truth is the republicans still get more votes from people with degrees.
Dems do better with people with advanced degrees but there is a structural bias. Conservatives are pretty much run out of academia so they don’t pursue advanced degrees (they can’t get a job at a University so why bother… they just go work at a think tank instead).
Dems do better with people with advanced degrees but there is a structural bias.
I looked it up, but can’t find it now, but about 1/4 of advanced degrees are in Education. Those will be biased towards Democrats. At the same time, the amount of intellectual rigor for a Master’s Degree in Education is much less compared to other fields.
To armchair pessimist: Your impression is right. New generation, 15-25 years old, has no taste for any ideology, and especially with a Marxist flavour. They enjoy relative affluence, comfort, a sea of information available, and, of course, personal freedom, never seen before in Russian history. This huge ideological vacuum of modern Russia everybody fills as he wish, and no standard to conform to exist. This is egoist generation, cynical and apolitical. And on government level the same void exists, but attempts are made to imitate Old Russia, its attributes and symbols. This most of the time is a theatre only. Nostalgia exists, not for Soviet era, but for idealized Tsarist past. This is, to put it simply, a retrograde utopia, absolutely unrealistic. It corresponds to real Old Russia like Napoleonic Empire to pre-revolutionary France. Nobody wants return of Jacobinian terror, but nobody wants restoration of old absolutism either.
About “all experts” I must disagree. These experts are ossified Cold Warriors, like Richard Hollbroock or Zbignev Brzesinsky, who have no clue at all what modern Russia is, or simply people who do not know Russian language. Those who really lived here last years and read Russian press, have a quite different perpective. I can recommend Anatol Lieven, Dmitry Simes, John Laughland, for example.
Sergey,
Thanks for the names. I will check them out.
I don’t pretend to be an expert on Russa; I’m just an ordinary American who sees that his country is heading into very bad times. It may be that our “experts”, the cold war dinosaurs, are correct about Russia. On the other hand it may be that Russia wants its old borders back but after that would like to be a sort of Switzerland with nuclear weapons, getting rich off oil and gas instead of banking. The first Russia would be very bad for the USA; the second Russia not necessarily.
But as I say, I really don’t know what I’m talking about.
Toes: How can citizens weigh the pros and cons of government policy if issues [x], [y], and [z] are coupled with religious conviction? I was hoping to hear conservatives voice some concern about this. Just one would be nice…..
….My next trip to the states is a visit to the National Archives, and I’m looking forward to seeing the Declaration of Independence (I was born on July 4, and I’ve always wanted to see the actual document).
The Declaration of Independence:
“We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.”
The Declaration is full of references to God and Creator.
The Declaration of Independence is the very embodiment of basing government policy (unalienable rights) on religious conviction (endowed by their Creator)!
There’s something wrong with you. You seem impervious to logic, irony, history and evidence….
Riiiight, Thomas Jefferson was a big advocate of mixing church and state.
You should probably stick to the narrow volume that is Canadian History….
Sally, the critical distance is an atheist’s point of view, an outsider holding the faith-infused political discourse at arm’s length.
First, you should understand, Toes, that “an atheist’s point of view” isn’t the same as the point of view of someone phobic or intolerant toward religious belief — and that your juvenile attempt to mock such belief is hardly the same as holding “faith-infused political discourse at arm’s length”.
Second, holding such “discourse” at arm’s length doesn’t mean it can’t occur at all — such as in a church, among one’s faith community, and where the discourse consists of praying (i.e., hoping) that one’s political views and actions are in accord with what’s right.
As for your trip, great. Your use of it to cover your trite anti-American condescension has a little taint of that old “some of my best friends are Jews” excuse, but perhaps you’re sincere. I’d just point out that it takes two sides to fight a culture war, and that the sense of ruination by media manipulation and cynical politicians is felt especially acutely by conservatives and most not on the left.
Culture wars are not the same as ideological wars based on different interpretation of Scripture, as, for example, fierce polemics between Catholics and Protestants, or between christians and atheists. They are about norms and values needed for society cohesion, for universal application of laws or defining public schools curriculum. Society can be very diverse in religeous beliefs, but basic rules of public conduct need to be universally adopted. This is what classic liberalism is all about, and that is why separation of state and church is needed; but there is also a need in overarching culture, and only basic Judeo-Christian moral framework can retain these fundamental liberties. In any other cultural context they would very quickly disappear.
Meet the New Russia—same as the old Russia.
Actually, it might be a good idea for Russia to start thinking about it’s treatment of other nations and cultures, and its crimes against them, and how this fits into the Judeo-Christian framework, or any sort of moral framework at all—that is, assuming they’re not mezmerized by the sight of Rootin-Tootin-Putin’s flabby (but manly!) shirtless physique, and all agog in expectation of his publicly wrestling a lion—oh, goshers, just like Mussolini!
Nobody wants a return of Jacobin terror or, indeed, any other sort of terror, yet it does seem to be returning just the same, doesn’t it?
Meet the new Russia—same as the old Russia.
“Nobody wants a return of Jacobin terror or, indeed, any other sort of terror, yet it does seem to be returning just the same, doesn’t it?”
No, it does not. There is a consensus running across all strata of society that terror will never be used, at least against Slavic population. Only small barbaric rebel Muslim populations in Caucasia can be targets of punitive actions, if other measures to make them tame fail. This is like Algeria to France: here we can use paratroopers against villagers, but not in France proper.
Judeo-Christian framework includes a concept of just war, embodied in Crusades. In all its history Russia protected Christians ethnicities from Islamic aggression, especially at Caucasus. If Georgian and Abkhaz peoples were not included in Russian Empire, their fate in hands of Osman Turks would be the same as Armenians and Greeks, that is, genocide.
And what is it that Russia doing today to Georgia, Sergey? Oh, yeah, right—it’s protecting Russian nationals in Ossetia! (Like they haven’t played that game before!) It’s not about getting control of the oil supplies there, oh, no, no, no!
There’s been a lot of water under the bridge, since the Osman Turks; Russia’s current record (not to mention the entire 20th Century) isn’t real good. (Hey, when does Pootie wrestle a lion, huh?)
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Absolutely nailed it.. I like as well that you pointed out the fact that it’s not because she’s a woman that she gets a bad wrap but rather the fact that she is a human being with less than perfect ideals.
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