Russia and Georgia: more evidence that Churchill was correct
The violence in Georgia has most pundits stating that Russia is using heavy-handed tactics to keep Georgia and any other possible breakaway former territories firmly in its field of orbit and out of NATO (see this and this). In this calculation it is counting on the weakness and reluctance of the West to defend its would-be ally.
Another point of view was expressed by Russian commenter “sergey” on this blog (see dialogue beginning here), who sees Russia as intervening to protect the Ossetins.
I confess that this is a field in which I have no special expertise, although I’m more inclined towards the first point of view than the second. Perhaps they are not even mutually exclusive.
But as I was mulling over the situation, a quote from Winston Churchill came to mind. It seems as apropos today as it did when he first said it in an October 1939 radio broadcast:
I cannot forecast to you the action of Russia. It is a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma; but perhaps there is a key. That key is Russian national interest.
Oh I don’t know, by October 1939 it was quite clear what Russia (or, rather, the Soviet Union) was doing. Forming an alliance with Germany, invading Poland, the Baltic States and parts of Romania. It’s not that difficult to work out what Russia is up to. Think of the fact that Georgia is more or less a democracy, an ally of the West and a country through which oil might flow that would not be under Russian control. The fate of the Ossetians, who seem to be bundled off to North Ossetia in Russia, is secondary at the very least.
Helen: I agree. I think Churchill’s point, however, had to do with forecasting what Russia would do, and when.
Yes, the key is Russian national interest. Here it is the reliability of Russian promises to keep peace in this very explosive region and defend its allies. Without this reliability, all Caucasia, including Ingushetia, Armenia, Abkhasia, Transdnistria and many other regions, some of them parts of Russia itself, can turn into chavos of a major conflagration. And defending S. Ossetians is a direct Russian obligation, to which it has internationally recognized mandate. Now thousands S. Ossetians, most of them womens, children and elders, are killed by random shelling of Tzkhinvali from multiple rocket launchers, aerial bombing and howitzers – all in one night, by surprize attack on sleeping city, which was literally razed to the ground. Half of the population fled to Russia – 35 000; this is humanitarian cathastrophe of a terrible proportion. And all this was done hours before first Russian troops began to cross the Russian border and on direct order of Saakashvili, in military operation which was prepared for monthes. Even Miloshevich was not so barbaric in Kosovo – and this was enough for Clinton to bomb Belgrad. Sorry, but all accusations of violation of national sovereignity of Georgia are obvious hypocrisy: USA Congress has declared in 1999 that “effective humanitarian intervention implies violation of national sovereignity” (to justify US intervention in Bosnia and Kosovo); the same reason was used for US invasion in Iraq. And recognizing of Kosovo independence also violated Serbian territirial integrity. Russia has not yet recognized Ossetia and Abkhasia independence, has not yet bombed Tbilisi, but if it will, this door was opened to her by USA, and not only for her, but, worse, for everybody else. Or USA hold a monopoly for humanitarian intervention?
Thank you neo for posting the links to the Guardian and NY Post’s articles. I tend to like Ralph Peters, although sometimes I think he’s out to lunch on Islam. I think Putin is really showing his fangs to the West now.
USA must tell Saakashvili in non-ambiguous terms that national sovereignity is not a license for genocide. He is USA citizen and client, he would obey. This is now the only way to stop bloodshed. I also believe that this is a direct USA moral obligation, because Georgian army is armed by USA weapons, raised on USA money, trained by USA military instructors, and all Georgian war crimes make USA abettors in genocide.
Sergey,
My information tells me that the Georgian government is not committing “genocide” in Ossetia. This war is not about a few thousand ethnic Russian peasants in the Caucasus Mountains. It’s about delivering the mailed fist from the Kremlin right to Georgia, which now is likely to fall back into Kremlin control. An independent Georgia is finished, because we can do nothing about it and Western Europe refuses to do anything to help.
The Ukraine is next on the menu. In fact, the Kremlin is already threatening Ukraine, accusing it of “arming” Georgia.
Putin and his gangsters have won this one. You should be happy about this, Sergey. Russian honor is restored.
Sergey,
The Georgians are our ally. We will protect them. Russia is interested in becoming our enemy – just look at Putin running bombers by our coast. There’s the whole selling nuclear materials under the table to Iran, and generally trying to goad us. Why, exactly, should we help the Russians?
And let me add one more thing to this discussion. Russia was using financial intermediaries to speculate in the oil futures markets to drive up the price. Simultaneously, it was cutting its own production and encouraging other non-OPEC members to do the same. This was a dagger aimed right at my country, Sergey. Putin knows that the U.S. economy is extremely vulnerable to energy prices. The big prize, and one in which our own Leftists share this goal, is our November election. Ruin the economy, make the voters want “change.” And the “change” you get is a candidate who has promised a number of anti-American groups that he will end the missile defense program.
That, Sergey, is the big prize that Putin wants. He shares that goal with Tehran and Beijing.
Some friend of us you are, that you would want your government to set in motion events that would stop the one program that would defeat the Mad Mullahs in Tehran.
So, random shelling of a sleeping city by all kinds of heavy weapons is not a genocide? Then Miloshevich is a saint, in comparison. I can not read Putin mind, of course, neither can you. Now only thing he requires is withdrawal of Georgian troops on their positions before attack. May be, later he would require more, may be, no. And as I already explained, this is not about honor, this is all about peace in the Caucasia, which would be impossible without credibility of Russian obligations – formal and informal.
“accusing it of “arming” Georgia”
Ukraine do arms Georgia. The Russian jet was hit by an Ukrainean rocket. And this was not a treat, but a warning.
I am not a big fan of Putin or Putin’s policies, but his response to Georgian aggression seems to me completely justified. The whole Russian nation would not forgive him if he would not stop Saakashvili and betray Ossetians.
FredHjr, your “information” is far from reality. Ossetians are not ethnic Russian peasants, and there are not “few thousand”, but 70 thousand, almost a half of the whole number of this nationality. All of them are now at direct danger to their existence.
It is very unlikely that Georgia will fall now into direct Kremlin control. But Saakashvili is finished, this is for sure. He was gambling and lost. This will give Georgians a chance to elect less reckless and imprudent leader.
Do any of you know enough to take sides? To judge? I don’t. I only know the MSM (all these reports coming from AP, for instance) is no good for this.
Is America a racist state? According to the BBC, yes. According to Fox News, no. Is Israel an apartheid state? Again, depends who you listen to. Who to believe? Is Russia the guilty party, or is Georgia? Is it Russia pulling its weight, or Georgia its impudence? How can you know?
(No, I’m not saying you can’t know and there’s no truth and everyone’s opinion is of the same value. Just calling not to rush to judgment).
Here more or less objective analysis of situation by a British journalist:
It looks, in retrospect, like a ruse that went badly wrong. After days of heavy skirmishing between Georgian troops and Russian-backed separatist militias in the breakaway republic of South Ossetia, Mikhail Saakashvili, the Georgian President, went on television on Thursday evening to announce that he had ordered an immediate unilateral ceasefire.
Just hours later his troops began an all-out offensive with tanks and rockets to “restore constitutional order” to a region that won de facto independence in a vicious civil war that subsided in 1992.
From that moment events began to spiral out of control. As the 70,000 citizens of a self-styled republic of 2,500 square kilometres (965 square miles) huddled in their basements, Georgian troops seized a dozen villages and bombarded the capital, Tskhinvali, with air strikes, missiles and tank movements that left much of it destroyed.
Major-General Marat Kulakhmetov, the commander of a small force of Russian peacekeepers in Tskhinvali, said: “Heavy artillery shelling conducted for several hours has practically demolished the town,” The South Ossetians used grenade launchers to hit back against Georgia’s heavy military vehicles, and appealed for help from Russia, the country that has propped up the impoverished republic despite Moscow’s official support for Georgia’s territorial integrity.
It’s hard to figure this out, from my comfy vantage point in the good ol’ USA. A few things seem to be the case as presented here now.
1. Russia is or is being painted as the bad guy. Don’t know how true this is. They may have had a case about Serbia and Kosovo. Their sabre rattling about Poland and Czech is a sick joke.
2. Things seem to break down from logical in the Caucases and Balkans. The enemy of my enemy isn’t always my friend. Greeks and Armenians seem have issues with some Muslims, yet are happy to ally with yet others. Ditto Russia.
3. Most news here paints Russia as bad guy, but given MSM record, it’s got to be questioned. OTOH, they are big with Iran.
4. It’s a bitch being the little guy.
I think you are wrong about almost everything you have said so far, Sergey, not least on the Georgian genocide. There is no evidence and even the Russian government has not produced any.
As for keeping peace in the Caucasus, that is an odd claim for Russia to make, given how its troops and various puppet politicians have behaved in Chechnya, Dagestan and Ingushetiya.
Oh, and by the way, Sergey, which British journalist and where did it appear. They are not objective, you know and you should give his or her name (now why am I guessing it might be a her?) and a link to the article. Being British I might be able to place the journalist and the publication. Being half-Russian and knowing the language well, I can certainly place the source of most of your comments.
Hello Neo,
To me, I think this entire situation is about the oil pipeline going from A-stan, through Georgia to Turkey. There was an agreement back in 2001 to build that pipeline with the intention of giving the West and the Far East access to this oil.
This would undercut Russia’s veritable stranglehold on Europe’s energy supply, which is no small thing in the heavy winters of Europe. This pipeline would also greatly lessen Russia’s influence in the world since they receive most of their revenue from the selling of natural resources.
The pipeline was constructed and financed primarily by two powers: The United States and Israel. There are some scattered reports of both US military advisors and Israeli military advisors present in Georgia at the start of hostilities.
Though I do not lightly dismiss allegations of “genocide” in Georgia, I find it strange to call the movement of a sovereign national power of its troops within it’s own territory an act of “aggression”. And when conflict arises, there will be civilian casualties.
When we’re talking about a region in the world that is not known for its precision bombing and over concern for civilian causalities, you will see the kinds of actions you see here. Though I may be wrong, I wouldn’t put it past Putin to send it his troops in the area, force the Georgians to respond, and, thus, giving him the perfect pretext with which to invade and destroy that pipeline.
In the end, I think it’s all about the pipeline and little about the stability of the region. Should the pipeline be successful, it would drop the price of oil like a stone. It would also flush much of the Russian economy down the drain as well…
So, with Sergey here, you all had a taste of what russians now sound. particularly, what so called “intellectual Moscow elite’ sound. They are “not big fans of Putin, but with him on this one”, calling Georgians aggressors who execute genocide in Ossetia.
For some reason, they all have conveniently forgotten that Ossetia is part of independent Georgia. They wouldn’t believe their own propaganda media on anything else, oh no – but they have no problem telling us our information is far from reality – compared, supposedly, to their sources, much more dependable: Russian media. Yeah.
Calling 70,000 osetians “russians” is such a arrogant big fat lie, I don’t know what he was thinking, saying it out loud – it is documented fact that Russia was HANDLING RUSSIAN PASSPORTS to every ossetian who’d want it. What a clumsy pretext; of course, in 1939, in Western Ukraine and Baltics, the pretext was the same – the benevolent and “morally obligated” Soviet State was “saving Russians and Ukrainians from big bad wolves. The only difference is that now Russians decided to cover up applying pieces of paper.
Why do you listen to this racist nationalist at all?
Neo,
To sum up my previous comments, I think this is yet another proxy war between the United States and Russia. It is no secret that Russia and the United States seem to be on a collision course. Georgia, who was in talks to be a full member of NATO, has been and is being backed by the United States, and they have also sent their troops in Iraq to help us there.
From my understanding, Georgia is also in negotiations to receive some of our weapons systems. It would not surprise me one bit that Russia views all this as the United States and the West containing them as we did when they were the Soviet Union.
Given our support of Kosovo Independence in the face of vehement Russia protest, our deployment of interceptor weapons systems in Eastern Europe, and our treaties with K-stan and India and other countries, Russia announced just a couple months ago that they will respond militarily.
This, I believe, is the opening bell.
I understand that the Russian people view all Slavs as their own people, declarations of independence not withstanding. To them, the equivalent of us supporting Kosovo national independence is if they supported and armed the radical Sioux Indian tribe here in the U.S.
In fact, that is what Putin threatened if we continue to support Kosovo national independece. This was around December of last year, but Putin’s aides talked him out of that one because that would obviously mean war.
This entire situation could easily spiral out of control unto a general world war. Let us pray that won’t happen.
Tatyana: I figure if we pool our resources in the comments section, sooner or later we may come at an approximation of the truth.
I’ve been browsing articles in Die Welt and Der Spiegel and I get no clearer picture than anyone here. One fact, however, is that Europeans have been trying very hard to negotiate some sort of agreement for weeks. One German thinktanker says that there are hardliners and moderates within Russia itself.
I agree with Thomas that the oil pipeline is a factor. The Europeans would like to be less dependent on Russia for its energy: however, the German Foreign Minister is far from being a rabid anti-Russian. There was a report that Russia had bombed the pipeline.
I’m intrigued by the timing.
The Soviet invaded Czechoslovakia when the U.S. was bogged down in Vietnam. The Russians, too, are not inattentive to the world correlation of forces. What better time to fight a war than when the world is focused on the “peace and goodwill” of the Olympics?
The accusation of Georgian forces committing “genocide” is scummy propaganda.
Whose army is inside whose country? I rest my case.
This is a pure cram-down power play by a thug.
I have zero respect for any journalist or “intellectual” who tries to “nuance” or “finesse” the straightforward facts.
FredHjr: “Whose army is inside whose country? I rest my case.”
Doesn’t close the case at all. The Israeli army is inside the West Bank, but that doesn’t mean the Palestinians are the innocent ones. Nor necessarily the opposite–deeper checking is required, which is my whole point.
Sergey,
The Russians have dirty hands, themselves:
Russian military aircraft also bombed the Georgian town of Gori on Saturday. An Associated Press reporter who visited Gori shortly afterward saw several apartment buildings in ruins, some still on fire, and scores of dead bodies and bloodied civilians. The elderly, women and children were among the victims.
Source: AP via the Dallas Morning Snooze
You’ll forgive me if I’m mistrustful of the reconstituted Russian Empire.
Russian annexation of Ossettia, with or without actually absorbing Georgia = 3/7/36.
This is Europe’s ball to play. But they won’t.
And I think that Putin has seriously miscalculated our probably response. We are looking to put an empty suit or a moderate democrat with one foot in the rest home in power during an unpopular, but unavoidable, shooting war.
Neither candidate impresses much, but they both have to fill airtime between now and November and nobody, NOBODY knows how desperate either candidate is going to be to sound “presidential”.
Me, I think we ought to send Georgia Patriot batteries and use our air, drone, and cruise missile capabilities to destroy any Russians inside Georgian territory. No big deal, just standing with an ally who has stood by us.
Speak the language Putin understands now, or learn Russian later.
O.K. You are free to mock me about this. I don’t give a damn, especially when I know I’m right. The military information I am getting over at Wretchard’s blog at the Belmont Club is amazingly current. What I am reading suggests very strongly that the Russians are not doing this to support a manufactured Ossetian independence movement. The placement of their forces and the way they are moving says the annexation of all of Georgia.
It’s a done deal. It’s now only a matter of time for Russia to mop it all up. Now the Georgians may hold on for awhile, but Russia is betting it can get the job done before the Fall, when the snows close the road up the mountain pass that it’s armored division used.
Well below “liberated Ossetia” is a juncture where the mountain pass highway intersects with the east-west road that runs along the oil pipeline from the Caspian Sea to the Black Sea port. At this juncture, the Russians have inserted an entire airborne division to hold it until the tanks arrive. The Russian Black Sea fleet has now sealed off the Georgian ports. Its air force is heavily bombing Georgian military and civilian centers across the country.
This is NOT an invasion with a limited objective, for those of you who are a tad deficient of the understanding of military operations. The scale of it and the way it is being carried out suggests that Georgia is no longer an independent nation. It no longer exists, even if it continues to fight on.
Putin is fulfilling a bunch of objectives with this operation. First, domination of the oil resources of Central Asia. Second, eliminating an American ally in the region. Thirdly, removing the possibility of any part of our missile defense system being in the formerly independent nation of Georgia. And finally, he is sending a hard message to Ukraine and all the other former possessions of Russia in Eastern Europe. The message is: America is not a reliable or effective ally. It could not support Georgia in its need, and it will be the same with you. So, kneel before me and kiss my ring. I own you now without a shot being fired.
This is going to have far-ranging policy implications in our country. I can foresee it discrediting the method of foreign policy espoused by Barack Obama and the Jackasses. We now see that there are enemies out there who cannot be bargained with or talked out of doing what they are going to do. I think the American public will pay attention to this. In the long run, Putin now puts the Cold War back on, and he isn’t going to win this one, once we get going with what we have to do to deter the alliance of Moscow-Tehran-Beijing.
The article was written by Kevin O’Flynn in Moscow and Martin Fletcher in Timesonline. By some glitch, the link does not copy, I did it yesterday and now, but you can find it.
I R A Darth Aggie: Gori was a point where Georgian army has bases and where main reinforcement were amassed for attack on Tskhinvali. I have seen the footage on TV. Two bombs went astray and hit apartment block, with resulting fire in two apartments, but no serious damage. The target was troops concentration twenty kilometres from front line.
How it came that no one has even minimal compassion to victims of Georgian agression? The whole city was flattened, with thousand civilians killed, many of then children. The silence of Western press about this humanitarian cathastrophe is deafening. All what is heard are some vague geopolitical speculations on what can or can not happen in future, and not a word of condemnation of obvious crime which already was commited.
And no, struggle of ethnic minorities for independence from Georgia is in no way fabricated. There was a very bloody and cruel ethnic wars, worse than in Bosnia, and only Russian intervention stopped hostilities. Caucasia is a powder keg of Eastern Europe, much like as Balkans for Central Europe, and only Russian hegemony keep lid on this kettle. If it come away, the Bosnia war would be seen as picnic.
You know the notion of PAX ROMANA? All history before empires emerge was incessant tribal wars, often with genocidal intent. Only empires made more or less lasting peace possible. And forget European concept of independent national states: it is very recent, only two centures old, and apply only to Europe, and even not to the whole of Europe. In Balkans it failed. Caucasia is tribal, there are many dozen ethnicities, even in Dagestan there are more than 30 of them. Often there is no territorial contingency, this is a patchwork of ethnic villages. It is impossible to divide the region into few nations without including tribes that hate each other in one nation. The best we can do is to keep peace by military force, and tribes should have right to choose their patrons and defenders. Abkhaz and Ossetians have chosen Russia, and did it hundred years ago. They are Eastern Orthodox Christians.
Why Georgian imperialism is OK, and Russian is not? Georgia, just as Russia, is a colonial empire, and its recent record in handling minorities is much worse than Russian. Turks-meshetins were etnically cleansed from Georgia, Abkhasia, Adjaria and Ossetia were invaded by criminal gangs, dozen thousand civilian were murdered in most gruesome way in 1991-1993 by Gergian army and local militias. Simply because its Harvard-educated Fuhrer pledges allegance to USA? But see how he treats opposition. All his democrat trappings are fake, real political system in Georgia is corrupt dictatorship and patronage.
I do believe that confrontation with Russia is not in American national interest. I have nothing against American world hegemony, I endorsed it many times in this blog. But keep away from Caucasia, you have not resourses and knowlege to handle it. Russia is a regional superpower, with long history of succesful colonisation here; leave this Russian backyard to Russia, or else you would be drawn into real quagmire without a clue how get rid of it.
Tatyana, I never called Ossetians as Russians, and nobody in Russia does it. But they ARE Russian citizens, and this IS their free choice. Your comparison with Western Ukraine and Baltics does not hold water: these territories were simply occupied against their will. There is big Ossetian diaspora in Moscow, they all have relatives in war zone, and all they with tears on eyes beseech Russian authorities to defend their kins. A lot of meeting are held now in Moscow, and they are NOT staged events: I seen these people.
Wall Street Journal has more balanced view of situation in its editorial, it accepts:
“Perhaps Mr. Saakashvili finally snapped and acted first here, as the Kremlin insists. If so, it was a huge mistake, as he has picked a fight with a much larger opponent and damaged his country’s chances of joining NATO. The West may support Georgia’s territorial integrity, but no one wants war with Russia.”
Do not forget, that Saakashvily was elected on promisses to return breakaway provinces Abkhasia and S.Ossetia, he made it the centerpiece of his presidency. As Russia has a mandate to peacekeeping there – the fact that many of commenters here chose to forget – everybody in Georgia and Russia understood that this means a war. So Georgians have chosen their fate. And, of course, Moscow always held prepared combat forces in the region for this contingency.
Tatyana, I am neither racist nor nationalist: I am a Jew married on a German woman and having five children with her. I am Russian imperialist, that is true, and have not a bit of remorse on it.
Shame on you, then. Your kids will curse your bones you when (if) they grow up.
I believe the numerous posts of Sergey above, trying to rationalize and justify his loyalties, should convey useful information about him and his country.
I have just read a lengthy article from the UK Independent about what Putin and his thugs think about the West and about “democratic messianism.” These people are CREEPY and evil to the marrow. Make no mistake about it, Russia has shown its fangs. How the other former satellites and republics respond will be interesting. Even more interesting will be Western Europe’s response.
This event has changed everything, because we now see the opening moves of the Moscow-Tehran-Beijing Axis.
God help us if that long-legged mack daddy wins in November. Gee, I wonder how his famous, airy, empty Berlin speech now will play in Peoria?
sergey: I believe that people are waiting to see you cite some independent and reliable source for your claim that the city was flattened.
because we now see the opening moves of the Moscow-Tehran-Beijing Axis.
…aka the Axis of Oil.
It must be very tempting for Russians to repay us for breaking the USSR by returning the favor by means of oil, but that would be suicidal. A strong US/West is Russia’s natural and best ally against China and Islam. Equally, the US needs to see that a strong Russia that imposes peace and quiet in that dangerous part of the world would be a good thing.
Sometimes I feel like one of those old jewish ladies who arrange marriages, and the USA and Russia are reluctant lovers indeed. But wiser heads must somehow get them to the geopolitical altar.
Neo,
Russia has always been an imperial, expansionist state; whether it took the form of Tsarist Russia or the Soviet Union or in it’s current incarnation of a thug-ocracy is quite beside the point.
Every nation has their own grand strategic interests. For us, it is to maintain our dominance of the oceans not only for the defense of our long coastlines, but also to ensure the free-flow of trade and commerce which is vital to our survival as a mercantile nation.
For Russia, they’re grand strategy must involve the dominance of their soft underbelly, their southern borders. There they encounter the instability of the war-like Muslims to the south where they’ve previously faced the Ottoman Empire, the Persian Empire… and that’s to mention the Mongolian conquests and the Chinese expansion as well.
Their solutions in the past, both under the Tsar and under the Soviets is to gobble up more and more real estate to the south. The Soviet strategy before Reagan slapped them down was to encircle the Mideast oil fields– thereby cutting off oil to the West at will– faint an invasion to the through the Mideast and then drive west into Europe.
This might very well be a replay of this same strategy by the Kremlin.
For the United States, with all the enemies that we have faced throughout our entire history, from the British to the Japanese, there has been an absolute consistency in who we oppose: empires.
We, Americans, are the destroyer of empires. Always have been. But let it be known right now, that we were not the aggressors here. For months now, Russia has been on full nuclear alert against us, bringing their weapons of war to the fail-safe point, and in a few instances, beyond it. If conflict comes between America and Russia, we didn’t start it.
Once again, I believe this war is ultimately about the oil pipeline that we’ve invested billions in building. If for no other reason, it is a cold, wet slap in our faces, and a warning against attacking Tehran. But then, I’ve been expecting something like this for over a year now. (see Shanghai Cooperation Organisation).
I find it no small coincidence that this invasion was exquisitely timed with the start of the Olympic Games, especially with a war-weary world in mind, and it is also no coincidence that Russia had the necessary troop strength to invade. Massing that level of troops takes time, and a considerable amount of effort, especially when we talking about the logistics necessary for a successful invasion. This, I would point out, is well beyond what is required for a “peacekeeping” force. I find their entire contention laughable. A force strong enough to invade and occupy land with all the logistic train necessary is drastically different from a force strong enough to keep the peace.
I have heard from multiple sources that the rank and file of Russia revere Stalin, of all people. This is why they love Putin. No leader throughout the entire world is beloved by their own people, except Putin whom we, in the US, regard as a former-KGB thug and an authoritarian ruler…
At this point, I think it is incumbent upon Russia to prove to us that they have no further designs on the Mideast. If they take over all of Georgia and perhaps even further south to Armenia, our troops in Iraq would be bracketed by enemies on all sides. Iran to the East, Syria to the West and an ambiguous Russia to the north.
If I were Bush or any leader in a position to make decisions on the matter, I would treat Russia as hostile until proven otherwise.
I find reading this debate here and the debates at other blog quite interesting. Is it just me or does it look like Russia views the internet as some kind of battle ground? In that it only systematically attacked Georgian websites, but also puts quite some effort into distributing false information by taking part in debates in Western blogs? Is that a mere coincidence that so many people in such debates are willing to defend Russian actions at all costs or is this systematic effort of the Russian state?
Segey, I seriously doubt that the 1,500 (and counting) Georgians who’ve died so far “chose” their fate, or deserve a horrible death simply because their country wanted to join Nato, and didn’t want to be part of the Russian empire.
I echo Tatyana; shame on you. Shame for supporting a nation that has spread as much evil and horror in the 20th Century as Russia has.
And Sergey, I seriously doubt the Russians are going in because of compassion for all those poor, oppressed victims of Georgia. It’s obviously the oil pipeline, and empire they’re after. (When has Russia displayed compassion for anybody? Not even its own people. . . )
Nice try, no cigar. Not even a kewpie doll.
Vitoc, Russia view the whole world as its battle ground—internet included.
I think it is systematic that the Georgian websites have been attacked, and that defenders of dear ol’ Mother Russia are popping up all over the place.
So, I have been telling anyone who will listen that Russia has been arming Iran, protecting it, and helping it nurture its nuclear weapons’ development program.
This is why Russia is doing all that it can, in conjunction with disinformation and lobbying efforts by its dizinformatzia agents in our country, to stop our anti-ballistic missile defense system.
The fact that Obonga has been speaking against it when he meets with “peace” groups and various “progressive” (a.k.a. Marxist) groups, but not speaking about it much to the wider public, IS VERY TELLING.
He’s a Manchurian Candidate. A filthy traitor to his country – a country he never loved.
russia is moving another pawn forward in this great geopolitical game of chess, further distancing from the west. the seeds planted decades ago are now ready for the picking. the bear is now ready to feed with his eyes on the prize, lady liberty herself. it is a transition from cold war winter to warmer weather, a springboard to the fall of america. my forcast is an even hotter summer.
over the years the kgb has been waging a silent psychological war against the west, instilling leftist ideologies. the demoralization of americas foundation in philosophy and in faith. more recently, they have been secretly manipulating the price of oil weakening the dollar. seeing the usa in this weakened state, russia is now filing divorce papers in order to publicly fornicate under the raised red lantern.
FredHjr, your “information” is far from reality. Ossetians are not ethnic Russian peasants, and there are not “few thousand”, but 70 thousand, almost a half of the whole number of this nationality.”
70 thousand works out to .07 percent of the Georgian population. Insignificant if they just went about their business instead of fomenting insurrection and asking for ‘assistance’ from Russia.
“I never called Ossetians as Russians, and nobody in Russia does it. But they ARE Russian citizens, and this IS their free choice.”
Then they should have emirated to Russian territory. Instead they cooperated with Russia and acted like this gave them an excuse to intervene in internal Georgian affairs. Whether or not Georgia was right or just in it’s dealings internally doesn’t give Russia the green light to invade, sorry.
“Why Georgian imperialism is OK, and Russian is not? Georgia, just as Russia, is a colonial empire, and its recent record in handling minorities is much worse than Russian.”
The old ‘but they did it too (or worse)’ argument isn’t a very effective one here. Sergey, you’re smarter than that. We understand your feelings about Russia, but what is really going on? Let’s not pretend Putin is a knight in shining armor here, he’s a thug. What’s he after? If he had an even semi-truthful excuse, does it really justify his actions?
No more lines about tears in people’s eyes, you’re a better debater than that, and really, what we’re all looking for here is more information.
“Abkhaz and Ossetians have chosen Russia, and did it hundred years ago. They are Eastern Orthodox Christians.”
Aren’t the Georgians also orthodox?
Isn’t there a significant percentage of Ossetians in Georgia that are Muslim?
There’s certainly more to it than that they happen to be Orthodox.
Seriously, Sergei, if you’re going in for dizinformatzia, you’ll have to do better than this.
The reported capture of the key Georgian city of Gori and the towns of Senaki, Zugdidi and Kurga came despite a top Russian general’s claim earlier Monday that Russia had no plans to enter Georgian territory. By taking Gori, which sits on Georgia’s only east-west highway, Russia can cut off eastern Georgia from the country’s western Black Sea coast.
http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5hV2N6fVKS5slf10A13Dj_uIdaZ4QD92G8QE81
===============
and
Robert Kagan:
The details of who did what to precipitate Russia’s war against Georgia are not very important. Do you recall the precise details of the Sudeten Crisis that led to Nazi Germany’s invasion of Czechoslovakia? Of course not, because that morally ambiguous dispute is rightly remembered as a minor part of a much bigger drama.
The events of the past week will be remembered that way, too. This war did not begin because of a miscalculation by Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili. It is a war that Moscow has been attempting to provoke for some time. The man who once called the collapse of the Soviet Union “the greatest geopolitical catastrophe of the [20th] century” has reestablished a virtual czarist rule in Russia and is trying to restore the country to its once-dominant role in Eurasia and the world. Armed with wealth from oil and gas; holding a near-monopoly over the energy supply to Europe; with a million soldiers, thousands of nuclear warheads and the world’s third-largest military budget, Vladimir Putin believes that now is the time to make his move.
==================
worlds third largest military budget… they just tested a new icbm last week. they wish to put nuclear bombers in cuba again… over 200 flights of bombers into foreign air space. murdered over 200 of their own journalists. poisoned one man with polonium… may have taken out a georgian billionair the night of the attack.
conveniently had their ships in place… conveniently had amassed tanks on the border…
the insurgents started with an attack from ossetia as the premise to get georgia to respond, to then have russia ignore sovereignity.
Sergey wants to believe in his country, but he hasnt tried long enouh to be constantly screwed by doing so. the cpusa contorted itself over the molotov ribbendorph agreement, first one way, then the next. sergey tried to defend the same way, make apologies in defense. but they dont hold up… why? beacuse russia has been a habitual liar to everyone for 100 years (and projectnig that the west is the same, which it isnt).
they let sergey down… he was trying to show that they changed. people like me refuse to believe they have changed till certain things happen, and since they hacvent happened, they hacent changed.
i feel bad for sergey because technically sergeys position is correct… that russianpeople and such woudlnt do this… but these are russian leaders, prikmed by dzerinskys sociopathic nkvd/kgb/fsb etc…
there was no genocide of ossetians… but there was widespread bombing of civilians by russia in other areas.
then the creation of a second front… embargo at the ocean… paratroops… handing out passports for years.
if your someone that grew up on the short end of the russian stick, you wouldnt have taken the russias side in this. historically speaking she hasnt changed at all.
military base in senaki has been taken… more tanks have moved in than georgia has in its whole military.
[and if anyone remembers i said that these litle countries would heat up and be targets since they are the last of the land bridge for weapopns and explosives necessary to destabalize the countries of the middle east and africa and maintain inflated prices for raw materials, like oil]
russia has asked that UN observers leave (hard to be ambiguous liars if they are watching and noting the crap you do)…
georgian troops have pulled back to hold tblisi…
ultimately, if they take georgia, they get to have turkey flip against the US. turkey has sided with the US because it offers stability, something that turkeys moer developed country can use. however, from the bombers who left sweden and failed, the communist insurgents that failed, the bomb that succeeded, and so forth… turkey has tried to hold on. but with mor ethan 100 russian tanks, and no way to defend itself, it will become the enw weapons conduit to replace iran if it comes to that.
note that since 1917 russia has had as part of its tactics to move native russians into any country that they take over.
this is just a blueprint test on a smaller country on what they may pull on latvia, estonia, lituania, poland, czech republic etc.
all of those countries, since being under soviet care, have had large numbers of soviet peoples moved in by the state when they were in control (the peopel that were there were murdered in camps)…
this was intential as it insured that if a free state that didnt eject them took over, they would ahve the cancer internally that could be used to leverage games like this one in georgia.
and notice how the US and england are the only countries that wish to deploy smart weapons and not harm civilans. the first fighting outside of osetia bombed apartment buildings in gori.
the cold war never stopped… it only took a breather as the soviets regrouped, refunded, and did so while not haveing to worry about their leaders being changed. and thats the key part. wihout the people ejecting the state organs, and them being so ruthless and evil, there is no change in state as long as they exist and are still alive. the fact that all the key people are connected or controlled by such state organs should tell you that they havent changed.
[heck, what country would let the leader of a coup end up being a party leader?]
time to go through the recent past and note all the things that we forgot that we should have taken note of. like the cyber attack of estonian government (and georgia too). like teh cutting of the undersea cables (which cause business to increase fast on their just launched sattellite).
Russian Warplanes Widen Bombing Campaign Throughout Georgia Proper, Attack Residential Areas, Military Infrastructure, Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan Oil Pipeline
Eight Warships from Russian Navy’s Black Sea Fleet Dock at Abkhazian Port
NATO Intervention Looms: Turkey Stations Warships off Georgian Port of Batumi
most in the west dont have much information on what russia has been doing for teh past decade or so… and most russians dont know either, as they have been sucking on disinformation believing that their state has been finally honest with them, which it hasnt.
Russia has ceased being a free and democratic country.
— Andrei Illarionov, Putin’s former economic advisor; quoted by BBC Online News, December 27, 2005
People said the communist movement was dead. What we see around the world today shows just how wrong they were. Today we see communists in the leadership of the peace movement, the anti-racist movement, the trade union struggle – that is where our experience and analysis really counts. Without our leadership, those movements cannot defeat capitalism.
— Kate Hudson, President, Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament, member, Communist Party of Britain; statement made in New York City, May Day 2005; quoted in People’s Weekly World, May 7, 2005
When Gorbachev was contacted on August 17 and 18 [1991] and a report was presented to him that everything [for the coup] was ready, he said: “Well, boys, you do whatever you think fit. I won’t play your games any longer.”
— Valentin Falin, Head, International Department, Central Committee, CPSU; interviewed in Vlast, April 11, 2005
We are hurtling back into a Soviet abyss, into an information vacuum that spells death from our own ignorance. All we have left is the internet, where information is still freely available. For the rest, if you want to go on working as a journalist, it’s total servility to Putin. Otherwise, it can be death, the bullet, poison, or trial – whatever our special services, Putin’s guard dogs, see fit.
— Anna Politkovskaya (1958-2006), “Poisoned by Putin,” The Guardian, September 9, 2004
AKM] together with the Communist Party of the Soviet Union [is committed] to attaining the creation of a revolutionary front of oppositional forces in the territory of the USSR, the purpose of which is the removal from authority of the police regime of Putin in Russia and the pro-Western regimes in the republics of the USSR, the restoration of the Soviet regime, socialism, and step-by-step revival of the Soviet Union on the basis of the results of the All-Union referendum on March 17, 1991.
— “On the Tactical Missions of AKM,” Fifth Congress of Red Youth Vanguard, April 17, 2004
The plans for the resurrection of the USSR are well known to Putin and the present regime and are outlined in the documents of the UCP-CPSU and Communist Party of the Union.
— Central Committee, Communist Party of the Union (of Russia and Belarus);
The men behind the failed hard-line coup of August 1991 that accelerated the collapse of the Soviet empire and ended the Cold War are not sitting in jail. They are not in exile or seclusion. They do not live a life of shame. They occupy well-appointed offices like [former Soviet Vice President Gennady] Yanayev’s, in a red-brick building in northern Moscow where he heads a foundation. One of the conspirators today leads a small political party. Another chairs a committee in parliament. Still another serves as his home region’s governor.
— “Coup That Wasn’t Stirs Russians’ Mixed Emotions: Decade Later, Soviet Times Cast Shadow,” Washington Post, August 17, 2001; Page A16
It stretches credulity to its absolute bounds to think that suddenly, overnight, all those who were Communists will suddenly adopt a new philosophy and belief, with the result that everything will be different. I use this opportunity to warn the House and the country that that is not the truth.
— Christopher Gill, Member of Parliament, June 8, 1995; recorded in British House of Commons Hansard
No matter what new party we create, in the end, it always turns out to be the Communist Party of the Soviet Union!
— Statement attributed to Russian Federation Prime Minister Viktor Chernomyrdin (1992-1998)
I am a Communist, a convinced Communist. For some that may be a fantasy. But for me it is my main goal.
— Mikhail Gorbachev; quoted by New York Times, December 26, 1989
In October 1917 we parted with the old world, rejecting it once and for all. We are moving towards a new world, the world of communism. We shall never turn off that road!
— Mikhail Gorbachev, General Secretary, CPSU, November 2, 1987; quoted in October and Perestroika: The Revolution Continues (Moscow: Novosti Press Agency, 1987)
they are doing what they have done since the start, its only us that thinks they change because when they lose they adjust tactics and strategies and pretend to be different till they are found out again.
eventually, with enough time, they will succeed once, then we will all pay the hard way.
They’re doing their best, but they won’t succeed. Marxism is a dead system, and the Russians are a dead, and dying people, despite Rootie-toot-Poootin’s attempts to ape Stalin, and the efforts of the dizinformatzion-cheks to convince us the rabid Russian bear is really a cute lil’ teddy.
We’re entering some bad times, to be sure. Hold on to your seats, it’s going to be an e-ticket ride. It’s going to be rough on all of us, but I suspect Russia’s gonna pay harder than anybody else.
Artflddgr,
I agree with everything you’ve written above. Socialism/Statism/Thuggery is on the march everywhere in the world right now. Even in our own country.
When a political party talks of expropriating company and industry profits, that’s essentially doing what totalitarian socialists do. And people cheer for it.
We have AMERICANS, for God sakes, rooting for or excusing the Russians – dopes on the Far Left, the fringe Buchanan Right and the useful idiots on the Left.
The country lacks the will to stand for freedom and liberty. But God help us if a woman wants to put the screws through the head of an eight or nine month fetus! Or ban porn from libraries and schools.
This country is in deep trouble and I think we are a long way away from getting back our spine and our proper perspective of history.
Reports are coming from the U.K. Telegraph and Daily Mail that the Russians are definitely attacking oil pipelines used by the West. So, the dizinformatzion-cheks can stop their (fake) wailing over the poor, oppressed Ossetians, whom the kindly Commies are trying to save. It’s all about the oil, and one-upping the West. And power.
Yes, we’re in trouble right now. One way to fight back is to expose the BS dizinformatzion, wherever it pops up.
Sergey,
First of all, I just want to say that I do not think you are a liar. I HAVE seen some other Russians on other weblogs who I have caught in blatant lies and I called them on it. Their response was to change the subject and try to deflect my criticism. And the people I really get angry with, more than the Russians, are the Americans who apologize for or support the annexation of Georgia. THAT is a bitter pill to swallow.
People can live in contexts and nations and not really know what is happening, but sooner or later they have to come to terms with what others are saying. It’s probably a bit much to ask someone living in Putin’s Russia to do that, and so I soften my tone with them (but not with a certain agent of disinformation at pajamasmedia.com and the Belmont Club, Richard Fernandez’ blog) named “Russian Bear.” I swear to God I have never seen a bullshit artist like that one and the boldness of it is both infuriating and funny.
So, I toast the memory of the formerly independent, democratic country of Georgia. And I now see that all the other former Soviet republics are next in line to be virtually or otherwise annexed by Russia.
Europe, because of Gazprom, is dog-collared, with a leash that leads all the way back to the Kremlin.
QUOTE FROM BUSH’S SPEECH IN GEORGIA
http://www.nypost.com/seven/08122008/postopinion/opedcolumnists/russia_goes_rogue_124032.htm?page=0
Nor does Putin’s ambition stop with the former Soviet territories. His air force has been trying (unsuccessfully) to hit the new gas pipeline running from the Caspian Sea to the Mediterranean. The Kremlin is telling Europe: We not only have the power to turn off Siberian gas, we can turn off every tap in the region, any time we choose.
Let’s be clear: For all that US commentators and diplomats are still chattering about Russia’s “response” to Georgia’s actions, the Kremlin spent months planning and preparing this operation. Any soldier above the grade of private can tell you that there’s absolutely no way Moscow could’ve launched this huge ground, air and sea offensive in an instantaneous “response” to alleged Georgian actions.
As I pointed out Saturday, even to get one armored brigade over the Caucasus Mountains required extensive preparations. Since then, Russia has sent in the equivalent of almost two divisions – not only in South Ossetia, the scene of the original fighting, but also in separatist Abkhazia on the Black Sea coast.
The Russians also managed to arrange the instant appearance of a squadron of warships to blockade Georgia. And they launched hundreds of air strikes against preplanned targets.
Every one of these things required careful preparations. In the words of one US officer, “Just to line up the airlift sorties would’ve taken weeks.”
Working through their mercenaries in South Ossetia, Russia staged brutal provocations against Georgia from late July onward. Last Thursday, Georgia’s president finally had to act to defend his own people.
But when the mouse stirred, the cat pounced.
The Russians know that we know this was a setup. But Moscow’s Big Lie propagandists still blame Georgia – even as Russian aircraft bomb Georgian homes and Russian troops seize the vital city of Gori in the country’s heart. And Russian troops also grabbed the Georgian city of Zugdidi to the west – invading from Abkhazia on a second axis.
Make no mistake: Moscow intends to dismember Georgia.
Isn’t all this academic? We can use harsh language on the Russians, but that’s about it. Any action we take will be symbolic at best. Like it or not, we have to deal with them from the position that this is fait accompli. Any other position would be unrealistic. The more we puff up and rattle our sabres, the more impotent we appear. The Russians know this very well.
As for the Georgians on the losing side – I guess we should do what we always do for our allies when they/we lose a war: give them refugee status and make them US citizens.
Moscow’s Big Lie propagandists still blame Georgia
Looks they learned “Big Lie propagandists” styles quickly from the Big Brother dude
give them refugee status and make them US citizens.
Well said, not just that those proxy who help US like proxy Iraqis they are standing in long queue waiting for “refugee status and make them US citizens”
Bugs,
Fait accompli? Well, sir, there are price tags to certain actions. I can think of quite a few that aren’t overtly confrontational with the Russians. There are a few thousands ill equipped Chechnyans who could possibly be better equipped, don’t you agree?
It’s not academic. Russia wants those oil pipelines. The US can’t just sit back and allow that, without endangering itself and its allies, and losing face.
Georgia and its military has seen what happens to 2nd or third power nations going up against a world class superpower. You think they would knowingly and purposefully give Russia a pretext to get a piece of their own country? Did people even look on a map at where Georgia is and its demographic situation?
A small nation that has personally seen the work of war done on small nations by larger nations like the US, will never willingly give one of their big nation enemies a pretext to invade. Not on purpose. If Georgia had become part of Nato and successfully bribed the European nations (which is why the US being part of NATo is pretty stupid when people who want to join it want US protection but have to bargain with useless folks like Germany and France) then I might believe Georgia was acting up and inviting some kind of Russia attack via attacks on S Ossetians. But they didn’t join NATO. And then they got attacked. However you work that out, the order of events speak a different story to my analysis.
So far, it looks like the Russian propaganda arm is still working to fool their own people.
The Russian belief was that you fight insurgencies by sieging the city, withdrawing to a safe distance, and then bombarding the city until there’s nothing left.
The American belief is that you fight insurgencies by making those insurgents into your allies and friends. We have made that belief into a reality, after some false starts.
It does not matter what Georgia has or has not done. So long as they are on our side, we will be on theirs. The Sunnis have actually killed Americans or helped AQ to kill us. Yet they are now one of our strongest allies. You think we would blink an eye at Georgia’s “atrocities”?
In some fashions, Americans can be even more ruthless than Russians. We are humanitarian when Russians are not. Russians are humanitarian when we are not.
Actually, Russians are never humanitarian in terms of foreign policy, actual or pretext based. And it’s not cause of problems during a fight either. They aren’t humanitarian even after they win wars. If Japan had been occupied by Russia, they would never have gotten back their economy as fast as they did under American power.
For Russia to say that this is somehow about Georgia’s “atrocities”, is a pretext. The truth is that pretexts are useful whether they are false or true. What really matters is not what people currently are, but what they represent for the future of our nation’s interests.
We will not just stand far away and bomb a city to rubble in order to make it bounce. That’s a Russian way of doing things, not America’s. And whether Georgia follows that example or not really depends upon their perception of which method works best.
If Russia’s methods work to them and beat them on their head, they will emulate Russia, regardless of what their leaders or people may want for themselves. If America is seen as their big brother and ally, they will emulate us and our practices.
It is as simple as that, Sergey. A nation is not born perfect or even humane for that matter. It is made that way. And Georgia will only be made by having them follow America’s lead, and America cannot lead by helping Russia beat Georgia.
Shut up, Truth. I wasn’t talking to you.
Yah, let’s arm the Chechens. That strategy worked perfectly in Afghanistan. Ask Osama…
Shut up, Truth.
Oohhhh ….how surprisingly those living in free world and proud of their democracy talking about free speech and respecting others views when it’s come to hear some truths which heart drowning down bad so fast and uncover their real minds and uncover their original colour.
So Bugs what’s make you different from Saddam he start with “Shut up”, ended a dictatorship good luck for you, with your democratic and human respect values if that real!!!
The American belief is that you fight insurgencies by making those insurgents into your allies and friends.
This not quite right Ymarsakar.
What you call Shock & Awe war? is war of throwing orange on Iraqis during that time and even after five years US fighters keep bombing districts and town.
But what US did and doing in Iraq with help of Iranians Militia Bader (I know you don’t like this) make the ethnic cleansing and killing throwing dead bodies on the streets arresting tens of thousands of Iraqi just because they are youth holding them without charges all these acts to make havocs and surrender to occupier forces that’s what happened I don’t need to go further to say AQ came when US invaded Iraq when AQ was not in Iraq and there is no link between Iraq and AQ.
Neo,
Sadly your space used by some uncivilized guys here keep put their anger without engaging in the discussion of view different from them or they don’t like to hear them, this is reflects their attitudes of uncivilized and drawing attitude like Bugs, Artfldgr
Read this Ymarsakar to in lighting you about Iraq from your convenient warm seat:
Read this Ymarsakar to in lighting you about Iraq from your convenient warm seat:
What does your delusional beliefs about Iraq affect anything?
To pierce all the propaganda you’re throwing around, T, the reality is that the US can go into Fallujah, twice, and come back victorious and with low casualties.
No other army, including the Russian so called superpower army, could do that. The Russians lost a division in Chechnya, actually, when they tried that. And their Rules of Engagement were nowhere close to as restricted as our own.
When your armies can go into a hostile city and go door to door and conduct urban counter-insurgency, both with the door kicking and with recruiting local allies like the Sons of Iraq, who were former enemies of ours, then you can start talking about how the US is “not quite right” in how it conducts counter-insurgency operations.
how the US is “not quite right” in how it conducts counter-insurgency operations.
Ymarsakar I think there is confusion here.
Your comment about Russians comparing to US bombing insurgency that my point when it comes to war US have used massive power many Iraqi lost their life’s many are still detained for no charges, take in accounts these Iraqi had 35 bloody years that make things different also helped US new tactics to copy Saddam’s Sahwa when he spread money and support funny tribal local Warlords who calling themselves Sheiks.
I hope you read Arabic this article tell you what the similarities between Saddam after 1991 scenario and US after 2007 scenario with Son of Iraq Daughter of Iraq and Sahwa of Iraq you name it.
There is simple question here if US interested in united stable state of Iraq why then US refused to get these Sahwa fighters (were former enemies of ours) and formally they were Iraqi military personal (that your “propaganda” telling it’s the third big military in the world of its skilled and numbers and weaponry,) so why not recruit them back if that suite US goal instead of put them on payroll by US?
the rise and fall of Sons of Iraq (SoI)
صدام Øسين ابتكر ( شيوخ التسعين ) وبوش ( شيوخ الصØوات ) .. تØولات لقب شيخ بين الوسط والجنوب قبل الاØتلال وبعده
Saddam invented The Nineties Sheikhs and G. W. Bush Invented Sahwa Sheikhs
The war is a horrible thing does not matter done by US or others there is no nice war and a gully war. US “propaganda throwing around” serving her goals and her war include your voice Ymarsakar here not mine as such.
delusional beliefs about Iraq
If I delusional as you speak what about these yours Ymarsakar:
The Forged Iraqi Letter: What Just Happened?
We can’t convince every enemy of ours to become a friend. Some of them just need killing.
If you think America’s evacuation of Fallujah and our air strikes there is a representation of our “massive power”, then you must have no idea that the United States of America have only used 5% of our total war capacity in Iraq and Afghanistan.
If you think that’s “massive firepower”, then you’d be amazed at what the US can do full out.
The US recruits those who work with us and don’t just backstab us when it feels convenient. Or at least, that’s what DoD tries to do.
It’s working in Iraq cause it’s working. Cause we have the right people and the right people have us. You can talk about we need to do this or that, but you obviously could never have produced victory in Iraq like Petraeus has.
AQ is moving to Afghanistan, retreating like the US did at the Fall of Saigon. There’s nothing more definite than that. Sure, the Iranians and Russians will want to take a piece, they always do, and we’ll be ready for them. If our politicians don’t make a deal with Arab enemies, of course.
See, the only way the world is able to keep America in check and prevent the full release of our military power, is by these little games of diplomacy.
Ymarsakar,
First I did asked you how much power US have, obviously you just trying to show US muscles, of course you talking about supper power and its capabilities.
We can’t convince every enemy of ours to become a friend.
What you call them “enemy of ours” it’s the product of Paul Bremer and if that made Iraqi frustrated and unhappy with you should give them some sympathy for not trusting you as such.
For the first year Ymarsakar Iraqis kept watching US what they can handed them of promises that US promised and there were no insurgencies for almost one year.
The problem starting by here was not “have the right people and the right people have us.” those guys from Al-Hakim, Bader Militia and Sader drilling Militia and other corrupt guys like Chalabi these your selection of start of what you call ” the right people and the right people have us” this the drama you lost Iraqi by getting WRONG people Ymarsakar.
Any way I think we went quite bit of the top thank you for your discussion. My concerns and more other people is the loose of people of Iraq and the disastrous war case scenario which may be can prevented in such away.
“So Bugs what’s make you different from Saddam he start with “Shut up”, ended a dictatorship good luck for you, with your democratic and human respect values if that real!!!”
Well, I’m different from Saddam in that I’m not a swaggering, old fascist raghead who murdered thousands of his innocent fellow countrymen; who got his ass rudely handed to him by the US military & friends – not once, but twice; who tried to salvage his big-man image by playing little power games with the UN and the US, putting his people at risk for his ego’s sake rather than working to ensure their welfare; who spent months hiding from his enemies but was finally captured while cowering in a dirty little hole in the ground; and who ended his days pissing himself at the end of a hangman’s rope.
Other than that, though, I guess maybe there is a resemblance.