Preach it Ross, preach it!
Ross Douthat has a description of the McCain-bashing pundits that’s not likely to sit well with them. But I think he’s spot on:
With their inflexibility, grudge-holding and eagerness to evict heretics rather than seek converts, too many of conservatism’s leaders sound like the custodians of a dwindling religious denomination or a politically correct English department at a fading liberal-arts college.
Or like yesterday’s Democratic Party. The tribunes of the American right have fallen into the same bad habits that doomed their liberal rivals to years of political failure.
And I would also caution that those conservatives who consider McCain too accommodating to liberal viewpoints and think his Presidency would “destroy America” may be only enhancing his appeal to those voters he needs on his side if he wants to win it all in November: Independents. The appellation “maverick” is just fine with them, thank you very much.
The problems I have, with the plan to
a) not vote for McCain, followed by
b) hard times, followed by
c) a suddenly wiser nation voting for an economic and constitutional conservative in 2012
are these
First: that’s a lot of conjecture up there in a,b,c. Predicting the future is dicey.
Second: economic and constitutional erosion happens over a longer period of time than 4 years.
Third: We economic and constitutional conservatives must make our case in the court of public opinion. We must win the public to our views through logic and reason.
If free markets set prices better than supersmart government price setters, we must make that case.
If the Laffer Curve is truth, and the economic effect of cutting taxes outpaces the arithmetic effect of cutting taxes, we must make that case.
If free speech and Constitutional protections are more important than clean government which the people can have confidence in, we must make that case.
If “opportunity” needs protection from “fairness”, we must make that case.
What’s happening now is this:
instead of continuing to fight the good fight, the “don’t vote for McCain” people are succumbing to a form of hopelessness, i.e.: the public is too stupid to ever be won over by reason, therefore the public must be shocked into having their eyes opened.
This is a form of railing against the design of the existence – as opposed to accepting the design of the world with a heart filled with wonder, and working, in harmony, as best we can, inside the design of existence. Stated a simpler way, this is a form of choosing fantasy over reality.
“Democracy is the worst form of government, except for every other form of government.”(Churchill – badly quoted)
At some point we have to declare that our allegiance to America supercedes our allegiance to winning Americans over to conservative ideals. This means, imo, we act to protect a vital American interest in Iraq, and in the war against jihadism, and we use reason to win conservative converts where-ever we can. And we go forth: happy warriors who are proud to live in this great nation.
Plus, it ignores the very real threat of programs which, once enacted, (like every other “progressive” idea such as Social Security), become entrenched an impossible to repeal.
National Health, anybody?
As has been stated before elsewhere, even with a Democrat congress, McCain still has the power of the veto. Obama/Hillary would have a rubber stamp…and that’s what terrifies ME.
If “conservatives” are truly concerned about the direction of the country under a President McCain, then elect the man and hold his feet to the fire…but for God’s sake, don’t hand the Socialists the keys to the kingdom; you’ll have a h*** of a time getting them back.
I am a conservative Republican who DOES NOT LIKE McCain. I’m not sure if “Republican Lite” is better than Democrat (Socialist), so if it weren’t for the Iraq issue, I wouldn’t vote for McCain. Not wanting to see the Dems engineer another Viet Nam/Cambodia/Laos fiasco, I will have to hold my nose and vote for the putrid John McCain.
I guess the difference between you and us unreasonable McCain doubters is your reliance on the NYT and our reliance on NRO.
McCain Estrangement Syndrome:
http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=YWEzN2EyMDcyNmY2OWMwYmNjMzhlYmRlYWVjMGRiNGY=
There’s really not much else to be said.
Al,
I doubt anyone here “relies” on the NYT.
I probably think the decision: vote for McCain vs. not vote for McCain, is a closer call than neoneocon thinks it is. And I think so for the reason Andy McCarthy eloquently states:
IMO, that’s a serious consideration. However, though it’s somewhat of an interesting and close call, I think Jihadism is a bigger threat to our nation than whatever economic and Constitutional damage Barack and Hillary would do to our nation. And Andy McCarthy agrees with me in the very article you linked to:
McCarthy goes on to (properly) excoriate McCain’s staff and accolytes for mocking good faith critics as “deranged.” But McCarthy does not back off his assertion that the WOT tips the question in favor of voting for McCain.
In one aspect I must agree with Bin Laden: people love winners and despise losers, as he said in his parable about strong horse/weak horse. This is true both for American public and potential jihadists. That is why effect of US defeat will be tremendous: number of active enemies will soar hundred times and will make eventual victory in War on Terror impossible. And US would be shocked into submission as today Europe already is. It is impossible to overstate neccessity to win in Iraq. This must be resolved now, four years later will be hopelessly late.
The very fact that people like Ann Coulter do not like McCain immediately enhances his appeal among most voters. These people had years to groom the perfect person, but they sit back and let those pesky voters pick McCain. Darn that democracy thing.
I wonder if the founding fathers were ever called inflexible,grudge holders too eager to evict heretics?
You bet your ass they were.
I’m betting at least half of them went home to wives saying….”Oh dear, just pay the silly taxes and don’t risk our lives”.
I’ve noticed it, too — conservative pundits have picked up another bad habit from their liberal adversaries: contempt for the people. One of Ronald Reagan’s great strengths, perhaps his single greatest one, was that he deeply and honestly loved this country. He liked Americans. I’m pretty sure GW Bush likes Americans, too, and that gave him the victory over the palpable contempt of Al Gore and John Kerry.
But now the conservative pundits sound like liberals: the people have “fallen for” McCain and need to be shocked back to the true path. News flash for Rush & Ann & Bill: the people don’t need to be shocked into doing things, or manipulated, or tricked, or cajoled, or browbeaten, or bullied. What we need are political leaders who trust the people. Isn’t that what conservatism is all about? Trusting people to run their own lives?
I don’t like McCain as much as I liked Thompson, for example, but the people who voted in the Republican primaries have made their choice clear. They want McCain. It’s up to the conservative pundits to get in front of the parade — or risk being left behind with the litter.
Ah. More insults. Its not enough to vote for the guy. We must love him. Our minds must be cleansed before it is blown out.
harry:
No you do not have to like the guy, but people like Coulter dragging Hitler into the debate do not hate. After all, I thought conservatives were supposed to be better than that.
Dick Armey tells Coulter that she is an idiot, more or less.
The obvious point is that the people have made a choice here. The true blue conservatives who just can not bring themselves to vote for McCain have done nothing during the past several years to find and nurture and produce the second coming of Ronald Reagan, too busy complaining about George Bush to do that.
And now that the Republican voters seem to have chosen McCain they are outraged that those voters are not saying how high when the true conservatives say jump.
After all illegal is illegal is illegal…and so on and so forth and anyone who votes for McCain does not care about the sovereignty of the United States blah blah blah. Like anyone really believes that.
I should have said that people like Coulter dragging Hitler into the debate do not have to hate the guy, but they do.
Terrye
“The obvious point is that the people have made a choice here.”
The Clinton, Gore and Kerry supporters have told me the same thing. It has the same weight I give your argument.
“The true blue conservatives who just can not bring themselves to vote for McCain have done nothing during the past several years to find and nurture and produce the second coming of Ronald Reagan, too busy complaining about George Bush to do that.
I dont know what you mean by that. I can tell you its not for the lack of both effort and as close to adherence of principal. If you ask me, it isnt the fault of the “purists”, rather the fault of people like yourself who seem perfectly happy to abandon principal for convenience. As for not supporting George Bush enough you gotta be out of your fricken mind. Absolutely dense. Where the hell have you been on this blog?
“And now that the Republican voters seem to have chosen McCain they are outraged that those voters are not saying how high when the true conservatives say jump.
Seems to me to be the other way around. I get nothing on this blog including its author and on this very thread, of how misguided I am because Im less than thrilled about John McCain because he isnt as conservative as I would like him to be. There is nothing in the recent posts that separates my dismay with having to settle for McCain, and Ann Coulter who I feel has clearly off the rails on the issue.
If you want not to alienate me, you would be wise to cease insulting me for being conservative, on what I had came to believe was a conservative forum.
Go Neo!!
Whoo hoo!!!
We are, I think, at the line that divides the idealist from the idealogue.
Nope, hold on. To be fair neo may not have been lumping me in with some of the pundits that have sworn not to vote for McCain, however, there are plenty of people taking them to task on consevative issues, Immigration and so forth, that make it sound as if their views on this are extremist, and by proxie, mine as well. If that is, you’ve lost me. I dont know what you guys are about.
Harry,
You have accused Terrye of sacrificing principle for convenience. I think her position is close to Sergey’s, and I wouldn’t quite call that convenience.
I don’t see why anyone should give up his principles, but he may have to set priorities. This certainly doesn’t mean he has to shut up about everything else, but he would be smart to think about the most effective way to present his case. I think most of us are afraid of Coulter setting the tone. That would turn off lots of voters we need to win. Right now everyone is ventilating his anger or disappointment. That’s understandable, but it should be temporary.
An explanation of spite:
McCain represents the defeat of some cherished myths held close by the right-wing McCain haters(as opposed to the left-wing McCain haters). Four, possibly eight years of a McCain presidency would move the Republican Party inexorably more toward the middle of the political spectrum — a galling situation to contemplate for a true blue right-winger.
Although Reagan was more of a centralist than they like to admit(that’s how he won elections), he provided for them the heady illusion of a realignment of the Party toward the right.
But alas, reality always pertains and Republican voters persist in consistently seeking ‘tainted’ champions. Both Bush senior and junior were ultimately disappointing to the right-wing extremists — who dimly know their “principles” are becoming passe and who are aware in their more lucid moments that they are not numerous enough to start a significant party of their own.
Now McCain. Now the distant, increasingly desperate rage leveled at those who seem not to be listening. The best they can muster is to fervidly direct folks to vote for Democrats — or even to not vote at all. The faint, decadent noise of the deservedly marginalized.
harry: certainly no one is abandoning principles for anything as trivial as convenience. Politics uses principles and is based on them, but in the end politics is extremely pragmatic. Pragmatism dictates prioritizing principles.
I have made my priorities clear. I am confounded by those in the Republican Party (of which I’m not a member; I’m an Independent) who don’t consider winning the war in Iraq to be a top priority in terms of the message it sends to the world about American will and keeping our word, as well as for strategic reasons in the Middle East.
And I am also confounded that any conservative would think Obama or Clinton a better bet for choosing Supreme Court justices than McCain would be.
For those two reasons alone it seems to me that any pragmatic person devoted to conservative principles would vote for McCain against either Democrat.
You people need to be explicit. Expat says he doesnt see why anyone should give up his principles in the general election, we must set priorities. Fine, I dont see myself sacrificing either. As I have stated numerous times I plan to vote for “the Maverick” even though I think he’s a piss poor conservative.
Im settling on the best of a crap situation for the sake of principal. What I am getting from the rest of you is that the other conservative principals I thought we all mostly shared have now been declared “extreme”. When the hell did that happen.
My next question becomes; how long is it until you no longer share any of my values. If McCain reaches across the aisle on Iraq, does that push me further to the extreme right for you? This is very odd.
harry: I don’t think anyone is questioning your other conservative principles. At any rate, I’m certainly not. All of my posts on this subject are directed to those who refuse to vote for McCain, and especially those who say they will vote for Hillary or Obama, to force some sort of hoped-for but probably nonexistent backlash that will usher in the tsunami of conservatism for which they’ve been waiting. Or to teach the Republican Party a lesson.
Harry, i think some people just don’t want to appear outside of trending political winds.
We’re going to have a liberal for a president and some people are already adjusting their minds and wardrobe.
Neo, we are on the same wave-length regarding how much worse it would be to have the fully committed liberals in the White House than the guy who makes it a more than occasional hobby to vote along side them. However, throughout the last few threads concerning this issue, there have been more than one voice denigrating issues traditionally seen as conservative.
Look; I understand that there are a few people off the rails in this party. There are people voting for Huckabie(sp?), an arguably worse conservative, because of a particular lean towards a particular religious sect. I find that bizarre. To me its the same identity politics the liberals play. but this attack on traditional conservative views as extremist comes as a greater shock. It is this that is throwing me.
harry:
I am not sacrificing anything, I support McCain, I am not ashamed of that. When I hear people say that he is a liberal, I just think that is bizarre. Would John Bolton and Ted Olson support a liberal? And if Ted Olson says McCain would do well on judges, I think that is closer to the truth than Obama would do well on judges. That seems like common sense to me.
I am not going to abandon support for McCain just to pacify people who can not even support the nominee of their own party.
If Romney had won, the rest of us would be expected to suck it up and vote for him. I have never heard a McCain supporter say he or she would vote for Hillary rather than Romney, and yet McCain bashers do it all the time with pride. As if the fact that McCain is getting votes from other Republicans is a personal insult to them. They are nasty, not only with McCain, but with the people who support him…and right now that is most of their party.
My remark about why self styled true conservatives did not find a better candidate is valid. If they want a veto over who gets the nomination,if they have a ideological purity standard that must be adhered to, if they want to control the process….then why didn’t they find someone to support and start pushing them early? If they are the heart and soul of the party, why could they not manage that? Were there no conservatives out there they liked? Pence of Indiana, Brownback, Barbour? Anyone?
No, they let the process play out and then had a fit when it did not turn out like they wanted.
I dont know that its the responsibility of us true blue extremists to find acceptable candidates. It seems to me that if we had, you would have felt you needed to “suck it up” and vote for that guy. That and the fact that it apparently doesnt bother you to be saddled with the guy suggests to me, that you are somewhat to the left of where I am. Thats fine for you. I havent asked you to abandon your candidate to pacify me. If you’ll only pay a bit of attention, you will note that I’ll be voting with you. I’ll be the one holding my nose. They guy on the other side of me holding his nose may well be John Bolton.
In the meantime, as long as you people see fit denigrate us “true believers” and “extremists” you need not preach to us if we hand it back to you.
I’m not sure which of my “principles” are becoming passe, though I will certainly mourn any one of them that is resigned to history. I try to pass them on to my kids, and hope that some momentum can be gained, but I realize that principles aren’t very sexy (well, to most people).
The night Bill Clinton was elected I was watching the coverage with my future ex-husband and a couple who were friends of ours. The other couple were enamored with Clinton for reasons I couldn’t understand, but we had lots of arguments, mostly good natured. Then my future ex decided, after a lifetime of zero interest in politics, to root for Clinton as a way of pushing my buttons. I was horrified. This wasn’t a game to me – it was my country. I could forgive that my friends disagreed with me, but I couldn’t fathom backing a candidate for such shallow reasons. As election night wore on, the three of them (the f-ex in particular) grew increasingly gleeful and nasty. It seemed like the end of the world to me. I know that’s foolishly dramatic, but it was the combination of seeing someone so false and self serving win the presidency, and realizing that the people closest to me found it amusing that I cared so much. Why didn’t they care? Did no one care anymore? Had everything I’d found so inspiring and passionate about the people who’d risked everything to build this country become passe?
Okay, so I was, and am, a pathetic geek. At least I’m a pathetic geek that divorced that awful person and married an honorable man.
And this country survived Bill Clinton. Hell, I’ve even lived to see him finally exposed for the phony I knew him to be. Miracles do happen.
I don’t know whether I’ll vote for McCain in November. I won’t vote for a democrat, and I seriously doubt Coulter will either. I confess that I do enjoy watching her campaign for her girl Hillary, knowing how it must be making Hillary cringe, but I take that as payback for the cringing I did all those years ago, picturing her eating off the White House china.
I voted for Alan Keyes in the 2000 primary because he was the most conservative, but I voted for Bush went the election came, consoling myself that someone more moderate would have a better chance of beating Gore. Though my father was McCain’s campaign manager for the state that year, I was relieved I didn’t have to make that choice, and my father’s endorsement lowered McCain even further for me.
I know that this is long, and rambling, but I’m trying very hard to make a good choice here. Yes, it’s important to keep these far left candidates away from the reins of power, but my vote for McCain won’t guarantee that will happen. If I vote for that man that I respect so little, who has only gotten worse in the last 8 years, and then we still end up with an Obama or – god forbid! – another Clinton, then I’ve compromised yet again and gained nothing. I’m 44 years old now. How many elections will I hold my nose in without gaining any ground?
I hold my principles because they’re important to me, because I believe that they represent all of the things about my country that are good and true and strong. When I see people around me abandoning these things it only makes me think that it’s more important to hold on.
We survived the Cold War. We survived Clinton. I’m having a hard time accepting that the conservatives must sacrifice what they hold dear, again, in order to allow a party to win another election, because I’ve become an anachronism. Did I mention that I’m 44? I’m a 44 year old anachronism, and it’s time for me and the rest of the dinosaurs to accept our extinction graciously. I’m not ready.
I still don’t know what to do, but I know that I feel pretty awful. Sorry about the bandwidth, Neo. I sort of hoped that writing this would help me, and maybe it has, but I know that this one hurts worse than 2000. Maybe all I wanted to get across was this: I wish that those who are asking us to get with the program, including Mr. McCain, can at least have the grace to recognize that what they’re asking us to give is, a lot. Not easy, not simple, not casual. Can someone offer us dinosaurs that much respect?
Absolutely correct, Neo, on all counts.
harry:
I am only saying that if the people who are doing the most whining today had tried to find and nurture and support an acceptable candidate to run for this nomination…he might well have won. If he or she could have made the case and gotten the votes.
This stuff of sitting back and then having a fit because people voted for someone you do not like and acting all outraged by it, is sophomoric. What are we supposed to do? Change the rules for you?
There is a great article on the Clintons and the FALN pardons in today’s WSJ Opinion Journal. It will help clarify what we all oppose.
Terrye:
“This stuff of sitting back and then having a fit because people voted for someone you do not like and acting all outraged by it, is sophomoric. What are we supposed to do? Change the rules for you?”
Fine. Should a democrat win the general election, not a peep from you we should we hear. Just sit down and shut the hell up.
I’m not sure which of my “principles” are becoming passe, though I will certainly mourn any one of them that is resigned to history. I try to pass them on to my kids, and hope that some momentum can be gained, but I realize that principles aren’t very sexy (well, to most people).
Principles, as an abstraction and in and of themselves, are “sexy” enough, I think, to most people. Extreme principles, maybe not so much. Take immigration, for instance, which has a number of sub-issues, one of which is language.
When immigration from a Latino country occurs the first generation speaks Spanish inside the home and some rudimentary English outside the home. Second generation — mainly Spanish inside the home and English outside the home. Third generation probably speaks only English inside and outside the home, probably doesn’t even know how to speak Spanish at all.
Language takes care of itself and doesn’t require draconian provisions in law, such as requiring all new immigrants to take English classes, yet extremists go ballistic at the slightest compromise on these sub-issues.
McCain, who has a high conservative rating(but not ‘pure’ enough for the extreme right-wing), tries to effect such compromises in order to get much-needed legislation passed and is vilified by the Coulters and Limbaughs, even to the point of urging folks to NOT vote, or vote for the opposition party.
It’s hyperbole, extreme infantile hyperbole, to get so worked up over a good conservative like McCain because he has reached across the isle a few times to get legislation passed. This is what I find so distasteful about the extremists, this rigidity. The good news is that the majority of voters pay little attention to such whining.
grackle:
“This is what I find so distasteful about the extremists, this rigidity.”
Right. Imagine being hemmed in by some meaningless arbitrary demand that we stick it out in Iraq. I think we need to be flexible here. If we dont achieve harmonious perfection in Iraq within the “Maverick’s” first term in office, maybe we should reach across the aisle and embrace defeat.
You non-extremists are so hip and today, I wonder why Im such a backwards holdout.
Right. Imagine being hemmed in by some meaningless arbitrary demand that we stick it out in Iraq. I think we need to be flexible here. If we dont achieve harmonious perfection in Iraq within the “Maverick’s” first term in office, maybe we should reach across the aisle and embrace defeat. You non-extremists are so hip and today, I wonder why Im such a backwards holdout.
Actually the writer is a centrist and doesn’t know it, perhaps because he has subconsciously internalized the values and false dichotomy of the extremists on both sides.
The two extremes would to pull out immediately irregardless of the carnage and long-term damage or to kill everyone in our way and ‘steal the oil,’ leaving Iraq a smoking wreck.
The writer is right in the middle with the centrists, which is to stay long enough that Iraq can stand on its own and be a dependable ally.
Rebecca: I respect the fact that it’s a difficult decision. But it’s a necessary one.
And not voting is not really a way out, in my opinion, since it acts almost the same as a vote for the opposition. Although it is far from easy to vote for a candidate you dislike so much, I think any realistic person knows that voting requires that one do this at times to prevent an even worse candidate from winning.
Pingback:Have the 800-pound talk radio gorillas painted themselves into a corner? “Losing my Religion,” part II at Amused Cynic
Neo: I haven’t actually said this yet, to my shame, but I do respect the conclusion you’ve come to, and your reasons for reaching that conclusion. Much of the agonizing I’m experiencing in this decision stems from the fact that, I agree with you, that both action and inaction in this matter amount to an action.
As I said, I’m actively working on this decision. Maybe I’m a bit slow. Certainly my stepchildren have complained about being unable to get immediate decisions from me, unlike their mother, but they’ve also remarked that, also unlike their mother, I rarely vacillate once I have decided. Once I do decide, I’ll stick by my choice, and I’ll have solid reasons for doing so, but please don’t begrudge me a little more time to think this through. Neo, I don’t mean to imply that you, personally, begrudge me that time, but it does seem that many people do.
I’d never considered the values that I hold to be of the extreme right-wing variety, but it may be that they are, and I welcome the opportunity to examine them against my fellows on the right. I don’t think it’s necessary to conclude that my philosophy, or anyone else’s, is extremist or irrational in order to make a case for voting for McCain, but it seems that that belief bubbles under the surface of this debate, so maybe it’s time to examine the differing viewpoints under this big tent as part of a discussion separate from that of this election.
I don’t think it’s possible to sum up my core values in a comment, at least not without sucking up even more bandwidth than I usually do, so I’m not sure how to proceed. I recently summed up my views on immigration in a comment on another blog that was concerned with a similar issue, in that it involved two groups of conservatives that disagreed on whether they should support certain other people/groups who, though fighting for some common goal, held to core beliefs that were repugnant to many others. In that case, the issue was about the issue of racism, and whether those who supported fighting Islamofacism should welcome or refuse the assistance of various European nationalist groups who opposed the existence of Muslim immigrants in their communities in the name of racial purity.
Those who espouse working with those factions offer reasons of political expediency and the overwhelming importance of winning a fight that’s vital to the survival of Western Civilization.
Those who oppose these partnerships point to the basic incompatibility of the ultimate goals of these groups, which is rooted in their personal standards of morality.
This issue holds more than a few similarities, though it certainly isn’t identical, and my own conclusions in each dilemma of conscience seems to be in opposition to the other, which bothers me.
Yes, I oppose working with racists who seek to purge all who don’t pass a genetic standard, rather than an ideological one (such as respecting the laws of the country they live in, not requiring that they adhere to a particular party), from their societies.
And yes, I’ll probably vote for McCain, even though his political goals seem to be at odds with my convictions.
And living with the logical inconsistencies of these two decisions continues to disturb me.
Thank you Neo for providing this forum, and I hope you realize that my very presence here conveys respect for you and your decisions, even when I might disagree.
McCain is awful in so many, many ways, but not so awful as Obama or Hillary.
When he starts raising taxes, imposing a ‘carbon tax’ and unreachable CAFE standards, I can only say “I told me so”.
Then I’ll mope around with a McCain hung around my neck.
The election in any event (if one believes any of the polls) will be extremely close, AGAIN. Whoever wins will have to govern by coalition no matter what. If–as I’ve said before–you hold conservative views, remember that the President spends no money and makes no legislation, that’s the job of Congress. And if you’re so concerned about what McCain will do as President, then by G*d, get involved with your congresscritter and make sure that your “conservative” principles are at least heard about. But for goodness’ sake, to hold to “principles” so dearly and so adamantly that you SCREW THE COUNTRY is just pretty much insane. Dislike him all you want, but I really don’t think McCain will screw the country. It’s a sure bet that either of the other two in the race WILL.
McCain’s going to hit a pit with the media, same as Bush but for different reasons. The image of the war on terror, seen as a losing or lost cause that was designed to exploit and kill people, will not be improved with McCain’s media skills.
The Generals, by the most part, will still be running the war so long as they aren’t fired and the orders have been cut.
Relationship and visits to Vietnam probably will get depressed, but that was never important in the first place to national security.