Carter’s “imprisonment wall”
Jimmy Carter, peacemaker extraordinaire, has called the wall Israel has built an “imprisonment wall.”
A strange notion of imprisonment, indeed. How can a wall designed to keep murderers out of a single small country (Israel), and yet allowing them freedom of movement elsewhere, be considered a prison?
I wonder if Jimmy locks his doors. Because if he does, isn’t he imprisoning someone? Locking out those who might want to steal from him, or murder him? Isn’t that the main reason we all lock our doors (although I have to say, in New England, I know quite a few people who don’t)?
Did Carter even notice the number of suicide bombers blowing Israelis to bits before the wall was erected, and has he compared it to the number of such bombings since?
But no. Carter is almost as demented as Gandhi was when he counseled the Jews to allow Hitler to murder them so that they might claim the moral high ground and set an example of peace/love. Ah, these wonderful peace advocates, always wanting the Jews to sacrifice themselves for the cause! Jimmy, likewise, would like Jews to die in order to give Palestinians freedom of movement within Israel–the freedom to come there and slaughter Jews with impunity.
I haven’t read Carter’s book, but according to this review in the Washington Post, he managed to write the entire thing–which focuses on the topic of the wall–without once conceding that it was built to prevent the murder of Jews.
Astounding. But not surprising.
[NOTE: on the topic of the inflammatory title of Carter’s book, Palestine: Peace Not Apartheid, read Michael Kinsley in Slate.]
I accepted the idea of building the wall many years ago, long before it was even built, and even, as I recall, before the second intifada began (early 2000.)
However, as I understand it the wall is being built on the other side of the Green Line, and that is in fact what most the criticism is about.
Further valid criticisms about the wall and/or walls is that due to the settlements in the West Bank, and the IDF control of the Jordan River Valley, the Palestinians are in effect hemmed in on all sides. Time delays, hassles, and humiliations are common at the many Israeli checkpoints.
Moreover, while the Israelis have built the wall, they do not allow the Palis on the other side of the wall to do as they please, with regard to, for example, water resources.
In sum, I think the wall was a good idea but there are problems with the implementation of it and there are further problems in the sense that the wall aggravates exisiting problems.
The word “Apartheid” in the title of Carter’s book is inflammatory but a couple of things to keep in mind; including a couple points Kinsley brings up.
1. Israeli leaders agreed to the idea of a Palestinian state in the West Bank and Gaza in the late ’90’s precisely because Israel did not and does not want to contend with losing the Jewish majority in Israel. To the extent that Israel now concedes the right of the Palestinians to have a state, because they do not want to concede the demographic edge, the psychology behind the Israelis conceding to the establishment of a Palestinian state is the same as that of the White Afrikaaners setting up the various Black states, or Bantustans.
2. Since Israel has expanded its settlements deep within the West bank, has seized, and has no intention of ceding, the Jordan River Valley (although I have seen references to a re-visit of that idea 25 years after a peace treaty,etc.) , and since the roads to and fro the Israeli settlements are frequently “Israeli only” roads which the Palis cannot travel or even approach, it follows that whatever state the Palestinians will get under the current setup are little enclaves here and there, surrounded by Israelis, with little local control, and few resources (e.g., they will still get their water and the electricity from the Israelis). And, that, empirically, is what the Bantustans were.
I need hardly remind you that there are significant political leaders in Israel today who are concerned about losing the demographic battle to the Israeli Arabs alone, and that there has been discussion of “population transfers” for this Arab population of Israel in any future settlement. It is also well known and accepted by the Israeli Supreme Court that Arab Israelis do suffer from discrimination and that these problems need to be addressed, as indeed they are being addressed.
No, I don’t have any global solutions to the conflict. I will reiterate a point I have made many times before, however, which is that it
Trapped in 99.999999% of the Earth is still “trapped”!
it is not in Israel’s interest to be responsible for the welfare of millions of non-citizens who have no representation, few rights, and few freedoms, and whose standard of living is a small fraction of the average Israeli’s. This is a recipe for the destruction of Israel as a Jewish state: not from without, but from within.
Steve –
Good analysis. At last, some facts!
But no. Carter is almost as demented as Gandhi was when he counseled the Jews to allow Hitler to murder them so that they might claim the moral high ground and set an example of peace/love.
Demented? Perhaps, but the Hamas guys and the Palis guys, they seem to be actually succeding at using that tactic. So it works!
I haven’t read Carter’s book
Go to http://www.baen.com and spend your 15 dollars on 3+ good books, Neo, not the Carter crap. Time is money.
Steve, until the Palestinians accept that Israeli Jews are allowed to EXIST ON THE PLANET, Israel is free to build as many walls and use whatever tactics it may to ensure its survival. The Arabs gambled back in 1948 that they could use force to destroy the Israeli state (a tiny sliver of land even compared to what it is today). They continued with that approach and Israel gained land from the wars that followed. Egypt and Jordan both claimed “palestinian” land in those conflicts as well. And now the palestinians are completely reprobate. A death cult society, as Mark Steyn has written, where the Martyrs of the Week are posted in the local grocery shop. The median age of their society is 16. Angry teenagers who know only hate cannot be dealt with. I’m sorry that there is some discrimination against Israeli Arabs, but considering that Jews are not even permitted to step onto the Holy Ground of Saudi Arabia, I’d say that attitude pales in comparison to Arabic attitudes. Basically, in this conflict, I blame the Arabs. They made their bed and they can sleep in it.
Time for Jihad on Jimmah! Why would any Israeli or American take any advice from he who opened the door for Khomeni in 1979? To paraphrase the ancient song “Dayenu”
When he helped overthrow our ally in Iran, IT WAS ALREADY TOO MUCH.
When he sat supinely as Islamic terrorists held our hostages, IT WAS ALREADY TOO MUCH.
When he weakened our defenses, IT WAS ALREADY TOO MUCH.
When he brought inflation, IT WAS ALREADY TOO MUCH.
When he brought 16% interest rates,
IT WAS ALREADY TOO MUCH!
Holmes: Now, come on, listen to what you say:
until the Palestinians accept that Israeli Jews are allowed to EXIST ON THE PLANET, Israel is free to build as many walls and use whatever tactics it may to ensure its survival.
I am not sure the prevailing view from Palis or Arabs in general is that Israeli Jews should be exterminated. Links, please. And be fair.
Israel gained land from the wars that followed.
Yes, and they also gained the non-Jewish inhabitants thereof. Most of the Palis that Israel acquired in the Six Day War, in fact, were Pali refugees from the state of Israel who were either not allowed to return or were driven out during the Israeli War of Independence.
And now the palestinians are completely reprobate. A death cult society,
Can’t you see the bias you are setting up here? Are you going to concede that they are human beings, or exactly, what?
The median age of their society is 16. Angry teenagers who know only hate cannot be dealt with.
The median age THROUGHOUT the Arab world, from the Maghrib to the Persian Gulf, is 16. This is thanks to the use of DDT, the containment of smallpox, and other public health measures as a result of which the Arab population has quadrupled since 1960. The Arab world is frankly overcrowded. So what are your plans? Are you going to kill them? Let them die from malice? Expand the NBA to 500,000 teams? Or what? They are human beings and they deserve a humane solution.
They made their bed and they can sleep in it.
Well, that’s just saying you don’t care about a broad swath of humanity. Cool. The problem is — and I have to correct myself — #1, the Palis have no lever to influence the Israeli politics as it pertains to their lives (they do have representation through the PA, but, Israel has effectively embargoed that.) #2, When you take a large number of human beings, put them in a position much inferior to their neighbors, and give them no outlet to improve their lives, or rectify their grievances, you are asking for trouble.
You basically say you don’t care about the Palis. OK. Then I assume you don’t care if some Pali gets so messed up he decides to blow himself up. And I assume further that you don’t care if he takes out some Israelis who are basically minding their own business. But of course there’s a limit to this. At some point, you do care. And that’s why you do have to care about that insignificant Pali, who is, after all, just getting what he deserves.
To paraphrase Shakespeare, “First thing we do, we shoot all the angry teenagers.”
Langston Hughes was a fine poet. Here’s his most famous poem, which came to mind:
What happens to a dream deferred?
Does it dry up
like a raisin in the sun?
Or fester like a sore–
And then run?
Does it stink like rotten meat?
Or crust and sugar over–
like a syrupy sweet?
Maybe it just sags
like a heavy load.
Or does it explode?
“I am not sure the prevailing view from Palis or Arabs in general is that Israeli Jews should be exterminated. Links, please. And be fair.”
Are you serious? Hamas still does not recognize Israel’s right to exist. That is the main sticking point in negotiations with them and has been for some time. And do I need to bring about a bunch of links from Iran’s President?
Palestinians are human beings- messed up, reprobate, backwards human beings. Unfortunately I don’t think they can be turned around in even a generation. They haven’t been able to scratch out a semblance of a state or a rational society in 60 years, then I don’t think land concessions from Israel will help towards that end.
The best solution for them is to take them off international welfare and Arabic welfare. They are more likely to learn to swim then. But if they sink, one can’t say they didn’t bring it upon themselves.
“The arab world is overcrowded.” Um, Honk Kong seems to do alright at #3 in the world in population density. (Palestinian territories are 16th overall, and Israel 40th). And it is their own fault they cannot “rectify their grievances.” They have continued to support kleptocratic terrorist groups instead of rational government.
You are one step from saying they are justified in blowing up civilians, in fact, I think you did just justify it. Just because they’re in tents and throwing rocks, doesn’t mean outsiders have oppressed them and it doesn’t make them sympathetic characters.
Steve says,
“I am not sure the prevailing view from Palis or Arabs in general is that Israeli Jews should be exterminated. Links, please. And be fair.”
From the Hamas charter: (http://www.mideastweb.org/hamas.htm)
“…the Islamic Resistance Movement aspires to the realisation of Allah’s promise, no matter how long that should take. The Prophet, Allah bless him and grant him salvation, has said:
“The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews.” (related by al-Bukhari and Moslem).”
“Allah’s promise” is the Day of Judgment that cannot come until the Muslims kill the Jews. Hamas “aspires to the realisation” of this promise.
Ergo, Hamas believes that Israeli Jews should be exterminated. Hamas is the ruling party in Palestine, duly elected. So while that does not prove the majority of Palestinians want Israeli Jews exterminated, Hamas’ stated goal of exterminating Jews did not prevent Palestinians for voting for them.
I think Kinsley is right- you’re trying to negotiate with a people who do not want to negotiate. But he loses a lot of credibility by saying Carter deserved the Nobel Peace prize. Well, unless it’s true that only terrorists (Arafat) and terrorist sympathizers win it, in which case, he was qualified.
Steve: … the psychology behind the Israelis conceding to the establishment of a Palestinian state is the same as that of the White Afrikaaners setting up the various Black states, or Bantustans.
Steve isn’t just another pali apologist. Like much of his brethern on the left these days, he’s an old-fashioned anti-semite — that is, Jew-hater — who tries to disguise his prejudice behind a facade of sympathy. He may even manage to fool himself, but his true bigotry is apparent in a statement like the one above — he doesn’t see or want to see that Israelis are concerned to preserve the one state in the world in which Jewish culture, after being singled out for attack in nation after nation for centuries, can be protected and nurtured; he thinks, or purports to think, that they’re just racists.
He, and all his ilk, should bear in mind that sympathizing with people who blow up others they’re mad at, or believe have wronged them, works both ways — and once you use “blowing up” as a mode of argument, then it becomes just a question of who’s better at it.
You would be the expert there, Pete. I defer to your judgement.
I’m not sure Steve is anti-semitic, though he does seem to be quite the apologist for the Palestinians. I think that he, along with most anyone Left or Left of center, is simply wired to side with the basketcase third world country. If there is a conflict between a wealthier nation and a poorer nation, they always side with the poorer nation. In addition, it is likely the wealthier nation’s fault that the poorer nation is poor.
Somehow having access to the infrastructure which Israel created out of the same desert the Palestinians inhabit is preventing the Palestinians from being as wealthy as their Jewish neighbors. And having more land will somehow improve their situation, though I am not sure how that works. I thought the world moved from a land-based economy some time ago.
I judge the Palestinians not on their race, but on how they act and what they do. They haven’t shown to be worthy of sympathy, much less support.
Sally,
A disagreement with Israeli policy does not make a person anti-Semitic. Steve is probably the most civil and reasonable person from a left-leaning view-point posting comments on this site. We can return the favor by not attaching labels to him that dont apply.
As far as Israel and its wall goes, its not up to Israel to provide Palestinians with a home land, a sense of self-esteem or whatever social structure you may believe they are lacking, even assuming they’re interested in any of that.
Its the Israeli government job to provide security for Israelis. Once Palestinians are actually interested in living, the violence will end and the wall may come down.
Until then, Israel would be nuts to remove it.
Sally: Name calling doesn’t cut it. I have been following Israeli politics from a right of center focus for 25 years, mainly because my brother in law is obsessed with it. If YOU had followed Israeli politics, you would know that the Israelis have only recently conceded the necessity of a Palestinian state, and they have done so, through Sharon, because they know they are losing the demographic battle. This has been going on for ten years. Or don’t you pay attention to any of this? Prior to that they had no desire to effectively give up any land. In fact, I remember Zionists telling me before the first intifada (1987) that the Palestinians LIKED having the Israelis rule over them. I did not use the “R” word, and I avoided it deliberately. The fact of the matter however is that even Sharon recognized that non-Jews suffered civil disabilities and these things have to change. And, the desire to keep a Jewish majority in Israel runs right up against a growing non-Jewish minority in Israel as well as several million non-Jews that Israel effectively controls. Israelis realize that. Why don’t you?
Holmes, I am not justifying suicide bombing. I am saying that if you blow off a sizable portion of humanity, as you do, don’t be surprised if someone blows themselves up to get your attention. It’s no different than if you express contempt towards a person face to face daily over a period of time. Some day instant karma will get you.
MartyH: Okay, that’s a decent reference, albeit an old (Koranic) one.
Holmes: I don’t think land concessions will help the Palis either, alone. I am not calling for further land concessions. However, and this is the point you seem incapable of grasping, the Palis cannot do anything in the West Bank or Gaza without the permission of the Israelis or the Israelis will take it down. And the Israelis are not giving them that permission because the combined water/power resources of the Jordan-Med cannot support it.
If some Saudi prince appeared tomorrow, and offered to tear down all of the refugee camps in the West Bank and build condos for those people to live in, the Israelis would not allow it.
Overcrowding is not merely a function of population density. It’s also a function of what the land can “carry” in terms of basic necessities such as water. Read some demographic studies. Most of the Arab world is in very bad shape and is carrying more people than they can sustain. What will happen is they will emigrate and live elsewhere. I hope you like your new neighbors.
I don’t feel I am apologizing for the Palis. The wall was built in direct response to Pali terrorism; and since they can’t control terrorism, they deserve it. However, that doesn’t change the fact that Israel surrounds them, and Israel controls them in myriad ways. It’s hard to develop much under those circumstances.
If there is a conflict between a wealthier nation and a poorer nation, they always side with the poorer nation. In addition, it is likely the wealthier nation’s fault that the poorer nation is poor.
I am a conservative Republican in my mid’50’s, if you are asking.
And I am not saying that the rich are to blame for the poor. What I AM saying is that the rich end up absorbing the poor, and wealth gets redistributed from time to time. That’s just the way history is. Steinbeck has a great riff on this in “Grapes of Wrath”, it’s a little over-heated, but still true for all that.
Why is America overrun with illegals (maybe “overrun” is too strong)? Partly because America is rich, and Mexico is failing. Partly because Mexicans have bigger families. Substitute Palis for Mexicans and you can see the future of Israel. And yes, America will become much more Hispanic this century. (I am not Hispanic, I barely speak Spanish.) This doesn’t make me angry, or make me want to go “native”. It’s the way history works. I am used to it. It’s out of my hands. One thing I am not going to do is try to control groups of people based on their birth. Whatever that is, it violates my beliefs. Apparently, it doesn’t violate yours. Cool.
Somehow having access to the infrastructure which Israel created out of the same desert the Palestinians inhabit is preventing the Palestinians from being as wealthy as their Jewish neighbors.
Israel has all the prime Mediterranean real estate. After the 6 Day War, and even before (Allon Plan) they understood that they had to control the watersheds in the mountainous less rainy center where the Palis live as well as the aquifers. Now they do. The Palis control none of that.
And having more land will somehow improve their situation, though I am not sure how that works.
I am not asking Israel to give the Palis more land. I am saying that by taking the land they have taken, they have effectively deprived the Palis of water rights as well as basic mobility.
I thought the world moved from a land-based economy some time ago.
Where do you think your food comes from? Palestine — just to use the name current 100 years ago — was a big agricultural entity. It is much less so, because oranges (at least) are water-intensive, and they can’t spare the water for that. But yes, some portion of the Palestinians and other Arabs still tend flocks and grow olive trees, etc. The rest live in cities where mobility is important — but, again, they have problems getting around.
One thing I am not going to do is try to control groups of people based on their birth. Whatever that is, it violates my beliefs. Apparently, it doesn’t violate yours. Cool.
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Edited By Siteowner
I agree that Steve has developed a manner that can appear rational and civil. So is he? I also agree that there’s an automatic — I’d say knee-jerk — tendency on the left to divide the world into well-off and poor-off, and then to sanctify the latter and demonize the former. Even in that light, however — and that light, after all, doesn’t seem particularly reasonable or civil, regardless of tone — I have to wonder about people who go out of their way to compare the besieged Israelis with the white supremacists of South African apartheid. So, yes, a person can certainly disagree with Israeli policy without being anti-semitic — but when the rhetoric, however “civil” the tone, becomes this vicious and this removed from reality, then I think the suspicion of an underlying bigotry becomes both reasonable and warranted. It’s not as though this particular bigotry after all, even, or perhaps especially, in “polite” circles, is unknown.
That was all your comment deserved.
I am not sure the prevailing view from Palis or Arabs in general is that Israeli Jews should be exterminated. Links, please. And be fair.
What planet are you living on Steve?
The only reason why you aren’t sure is because you don’t listen or witness what is going on in the Palestinian Territories. It ain’t the Wild West, it is worse.
You basically say you don’t care about the Palis. OK. Then I assume you don’t care if some Pali gets so messed up he decides to blow himself up.
I think on the basis of humanitarian concerns, that we should execute the Palestinians, give them a free ride to heaven. But all in all, no, people should not care how many Palis get messed up and blow themselves up. We’ll do it for them in the end.
Sally: It would help if you would specify what I have written that is “vicious” and/or “removed from reality.” If you mean Israel’s crisis with the demographic issue, then it is clear that you haven’t been paying attention for the last 15 years.
Holmes: You make all kinds of global and derogatory comments about “Palestinians” as such; you talk about them sinking or swimming, and you talk about how you don’t care. Those were your words. They were not mine.
Most Israelis recognize the humanity of the Palestinians. A lesser number, but a significant number, of Palestinians recognize the same about their Jewish Israeli neighbors. But in the blogosphere, if the Palestinians are not crazy “animals” that practically need to be euthanized, then you must be an anti-semite. Ho hum.
Steve: I am a conservative Republican in my mid’50’s, if you are asking.
Yeah, and I’m the Queen of Sheba.
So now Steve’s both a demographic determinist — “I hope you like your new neighbors” — and a wealth redistributionist — “That’s just the way history is”. He’s wrong on both counts. An exploding birth rate can certainly make for problems, but not for those countries and cultures able to control their population — unless, of course, such countries lose control of their borders. And history really isn’t Robbing Hood, except in the days of pillage and rape — as a rule, the way people get wealthy is the way in which the world as a whole has gotten wealthy — by creating wealth rather than taking it. His demographics and determinism, of course, are just standard bits of the leftist belief-system, however skewed. But they should make you a little skeptical of his asserted “right of center focus” — I wonder just where he imagines the “center” to be?
Israel should build the wall tall and strong. Fly over every day and drop plenty of ammo to the idiots on the other side. Soon they will only have to bury one idiot islamist. They rest will kill each other. They don’t care who they murder, but they must murder someone. The Israeli’s have to stop being the victims.
Carter’s morality is evil. It always boils down to altruism in which America sacrifices its values to lesser countries: banana republics (with and without oil), Middle East theocracies, Castro, Asian nut jobs, Central American “liberation theology” advocates (i.e. Marxists). It’s ironic that someone who prescribes humility for the United States has a sociopathic absence of shame. This man is a menace to liberty.
Steve,
I can write of the Palestinians in the collective as surely as you can write about Americans acting collectively or the Israelis acting collectively. I do not favor the Palestinians actions collectively just as surely as I did not favor the Nazis actions collectively, though not all Germans were active, Nazis. Still, one can’t make policy directed at the 10% who aren’t in power.
The Saudis and any other Arabic neighbors have not invited the Palestinians to their part of the world to ease their “suffering” (since they’re supposedly offering Condos and such which those greedy, water-hoarding Jews would just destroy as you mentioned) for a reason- they are a headache. If that headache did itself in because of its own insane policies, there’s nothing that can be done. And supporting them in their lunacy is just that.
The analogy to Mexican immigration is so spurious as to not warrant a response, but seeing as how you do not understand either basic economic principles (we are all agriculturally based societies? huh?) nor the even the basic, common knowledge of Hamas’ aims, I suppose it’s necessary to point out that Mexicans aren’t actively undermining our society. They share many of Americans’ common values. They don’t blow themselves up in market places nor generally seek our destruction. (I just happen to think we should limit immigration from Mexico to a reasonable amount each year). Do you see how that is different from the governing party of Hamas? If you do not, I think you might be retarded. Cool.
Steve-
My reference was not to the text from the Quran, but rather that Hamas uses that text as part of the foundation of the organization.
An analogy would be if a political party quoted a Biblical verse and used it to justify slavery as part of their party platform.
You could then easily say that they were anti-Civil Rights; if they were elected with that platform, regardless of any mitigating factors, you could say that the population who elected them was anti-Civil Rights as well.
Hamas’ charter calls for killing Jews; the only way to interpret their election the head of the Palestinian government is to acknowledge that the voters support this view.
Neo-neocon writes: “How can a wall designed to keep murderers out of a single small country (Israel)”.
Elementary, my dear Watson.
The wall doesn’t only keep “murderers” out. It keeps all Palestinians out, and prevents them from going to Israel to earn their living. “Going to Israel” to earn their living would not have been necessary in normal circumstances, but Israel, which has illegally occupied the territories (in blatant violation of US resolutions) has not allowed economic development to take place there.
… I am not justifying suicide bombing. I am saying that if you blow off a sizable portion, as you do, don’t be surprised if someone blows themselves up to get your attention. It’s no different than if you express contempt towards a person face to face daily over a period of time. Some day instant karma will get you.
The commentor wants it both ways. First he says he is not “justifying suicide bombing,“ then in the very next sentence he proceeds to do just that.
The comment below is yet another example of the commentor’s dithering. The first sentence asserts that the Palestinians “deserve” the wall but the next sentence virtually absolves the Palestinians of any blame, indicts Israel(For surrounding Palestine) and the final sentence even goes on to excuse the Palestinians.
The wall was built in direct response to Pali terrorism; and since they can’t control terrorism, they deserve it. However, that doesn’t change the fact that Israel surrounds them, and Israel controls them in myriad ways. It’s hard to develop much under those circumstances.
Amazing, truly amazing is the human capacity for rationalization.
Also, the commentor evidently believes that Israel has no right to peace because Israel IGNORES the Palestinians(“if you blow off a sizable portion of humanity”). By that reasoning Barbados should declare war on Fiji, since it’s dead certain that Fiji is contemptuously IGNORING Barbados.
One definition of anti-Semitism is to demand of Jews what is demanded of no other group – to suffer acts of war without recourse to effective retaliation. Or even obvious defenses such as walls. Next they’ll be demanding that the IDF phone ahead before striking … oops, I forgot – that’s ALREADY the case.
The Carter book and the commentor’s internalized assumptions are only symptomatic of a world-wide wave of anti-Semitism that was submerged just after WW2 but that has recently experienced a chilling rebirth.
If YOU had followed Israeli politics, you would know that the Israelis have only recently conceded the necessity of a Palestinian state, and they have done so, through Sharon, because they know they are losing the demographic battle.
Only recently, eh? With Sharon, eh?
On a related note, do you like maps?
Says grackle: “The commentor [speaking of Steve] wants it both ways.”
Steve’s an interesting case in that he continually reads like a leftist trying to imitate how he thinks the right thinks, while still holding on to his leftist faith. E.g., he’s consistently against the US’s current use of force, but supposedly for the draft, and at some vague point in the future, he asserts he’s all in favor of “Blood for Oil!” — no doubt thinking that this is the sort of thing that gets the right excited. Here he says he’s “not justifying suicide bombers”, while, as grackle points out, doing just that, and admits that the Palestinians “deserve” the wall, but at the same time blames Israel rather than themselves for their plight, and can’t stop himself from likening Israelis to the racists of South Africa.
The explanation, as I’ve said before, is that I think he’s a fake — a lefty trying to dress up in what he thinks (usually mistakenly) are a few right-wing tokens, and hoping that this will let him pass as a “reasonable” centrist. It doesn’t.
Anonymous . . .
Why don’t you make up a fake name so we can address you?
It’s “justaguy”, Promethea. He can’t help himself, and he thinks this way he can litter the place again for a while before it gets cleaned up.
Reviewed by Jeffrey GOLDBERG. Nice, unemtionally attached position.Of course everyone on the planet knows wht the Israelis say they are building a wall.Mentioning it would not have been much of a revelation. Neo and Goldbergs point is clear but astounding.Why work for peace when you can surround yourself with a wall? And why read a book when you can get a review from Goldberg.
Jonah, trout. Jonah. Why read a comment when the commentor can’t even get his facts straight?
“Are you going to concede that they are human beings, or exactly, what?”
Serial murderers also are human beings. So what? If a human being fell sufficiently low, he looses even right to exist (at least, in many American states death penalty is practiced). And only citizens are entitled to citizen rights. To be a citezen it is not enough to breath and be born by a woman. It takes also to conform to some minimal standards of human decency. Any moral is reciprocal. If Palis do not recognize Jews to be humans, why Jews should recognize Palis as such? I see no reason to that.
… show me a link, statement where any Israeli government has recognized the Palestinian right to exist in his own land.
September 9, 1993
Yasser Arafat Chairman
The Palestinian Liberation Organization
Mr. Chairman,
In response to your letter of September 9, 1993, I wish to confirm to you that, in light of the PLO commitments included in your letter, the Government of Israel has decided to recognize the PLO as the representative of the Palestinian people and commence negotiations with the PLO within the Middle East peace process.
Yitzhak Rabin
Prime Minister of Israel
Furthermore, the opening paragraph of the Declaration of Principles On Interim Self-Government Arrangements was signed by Israel and Palestine and is yet another example:
The Government of the State of Israel and the PLO team (in the Jordanian-Palestinian delegation to the Middle East Peace Conference) (the “Palestinian Delegation”), representing the Palestinian people, agree that it is time to put an end to decades of confrontation and conflict, recognize their mutual legitimate and political rights, and strive to live in peaceful coexistence and mutual dignity and security and achieve a just, lasting and comprehensive peace settlement and historic reconciliation through the agreed political process.
Israel has never questioned Palestine’s right to exist and so naturally has never been called upon to formally recognize such a thing – it’s a bit like asking a nun to recognize her virginity.
And how in the hell do you get Steve is ‘justifying’ suicide bombers?
Below is the relevant quote by Steve:
I am saying that if you blow off a sizable portion, as you do, don’t be surprised if someone blows themselves up to get your attention.
Nice documentation, grackle.
Do you people realise how like neonazis you sound?
This “death cult” Palestinians thing is exactly like the Elders of Zion fallacy. What have the Palestinians to do with German sins, Saudi sins, Nasser’s sins?
You are cheering on a genocide. Wake up to yourselves.
On a related note, do you like maps?
Barry Meislin | 12.14.06 – 6:55 am | #
That “refutation” is total bunk. There is no map issue and the information regarding the offers is totally spurious.
95% of the west bank indeed. Try 18% in 5 small bantustans, with no water, infrastructure, border control or effective government. i.e. NO STATE.
MYTH 1: ISRAEL’S INVASION OF PALESTINIAN CITIES AND REFUGEE CAMPS IS SELF-DEFENCE AGAINST SUICIDE BOMBINGS
The Israeli claim that its attacks on the Palestinians constitute “self defense” ignores the fact that its posture in East Jerusalem, the West Bank and Gaza Strip is, by definition, not defensive. Since 1967, Israel has maintained tens of thousands of heavily armed troops outside its borders for the purposes of stealing land from the Palestinians and forcing them to live as non-citizens under a foreign military dictatorship.
Seized Palestinian land has been used to build Jewish-only settlements linked by a network of Jewish-only roads, in flagrant violation of UN Security Council Resolutions and the Fourth Geneva Convention. This colonization is, and can only be, carried out by the violent suppression of any and all Palestinian resistance to the occupation.
Throughout the years of the “peace process” during the 1990s, Israel continued to construct settlements, doubling the number of settlers in the West Bank from about 100,000 to 200,000 according to the Israeli group “Peace Now.” At least 34 new settlements have been built since Sharon took office.
The settlement colonization policy is, and can only be carried out by the violent suppression of any and all Palestinian resistance to the occupation. Throughout the years of the “peace process” Israel continued to construct settlements, doubling the number of settlers according to the Israeli group “Peace Now.”
The entire international community has recognized that Israel’s military occupation must end, and that its continuation, along with the settlement policy, and the massive repression they entail is a guarantee of continued bloodshed. Israel’s brutal actions in the occupied territories are designed to consolidate and entrench the occupation and expand Israeli colonization, and are therefore, by definition, not defensive in nature.
Israel’s brutal actions [yada, yada]… and are therefore, by definition, not defensive in nature.
Ever hear about the best defense? Stop the suicide bombing, recognize the State of Israel, and then we can talk. Until then, “continued bloodshed” indeed, the toothless, meaningless, posturing, and corrupt UN notwithstanding.
“An analogy would be if a political party quoted a Biblical verse and used it to justify slavery as part of their party platform.”
An apt analogy, since the root of Muslim rage is the despised Jews standing up, refusing to submit any longer to Muslim domination, and, worst of all, outclassing the Muslims in every area of human endeavor.
“I am not sure the prevailing view from Palis or Arabs in general is that Israeli Jews should be exterminated.”
and:
“I have been following Israeli politics from a right of center focus for 25 years”
No intelligent, educated adult could be unaware of Islam’s long history of practicing genocide on populations of uppity infidels, and the traditional mainstream Muslim law which prescribes such barbarism. Just for starters, note the ethnic cleansings and forced relocations of the first jihads, the Armenian Genocide at the beginning of the 20th Century, and Haj Amin al Husseini’s call for a global Final Solution–a call which was quite popular among Arab Muslims.
No, Steve does not sound like a conservative. He sounds like a leftie troll pretending to be something he does not even begin to understand.
Steve’s a Cold War guy, isolationist Republican more or less. Not a Lefty troll. Sort of like in the Baker mold, not the Nancy mold.
Do you people realise how like neonazis you sound?
Didn’t you know why we called ourselves neo-cons? Come on, you are not that dense, are you.
This “death cult” Palestinians thing is exactly like the Elders of Zion fallacy. What have the Palestinians to do with German sins, Saudi sins, Nasser’s sins?
I guess you didn’t catch Obsession on Fox News or YouTube.
Back OT-
Ghandi at least had the sense to say this:
“Such being the hold that the doctrine of the sword has on the majority of mankind, and as a success of noncooperation depends principally on the absence of violence during its pendency and as my views in this matter affect the conduct of a large number of people, I am anxious to state them as clearly as possible.
I do believe that, where there is only a choice between cowardice and violence, I would advise violence. Thus when my eldest son asked me what he should have done, had he been present when I was almost fatally assaulted in 1908, whether he should have run away and seen me killed or whether he should have used his physical force, which he could and wanted to use, and defended me, I told him it was his duty to defend me even by using violence Hence it was that I took part in the Boer War, the so-called Zulu Rebellion, and the late war. Hence also do I advocate training in arms for those who believe in the method of violence. I would rather have India resort to arms in order to defend her honor than that she should in a cowardly manner become or remain a helpless witness to her own dishonor.
But I believe that nonviolence is infinitely superior to violence, forgiveness is more manly than punishment. Forgiveness adorns the soldier. But abstinence is forgiveness only when there is power to punish: it is meaningless when it pretends to proceed form a helpless creature. A mouse hardly forgives a cat when it allows itself to be torn to pieces by her. I therefore appreciate the sentiment of those who cry out for the condign punishment of General Dyer and his ilk. They would tear him to pieces if they could. But I do not believe India to be helpless. I do not believe myself to be a helpless creature. Only I want to use India’s and my strength for a better purpose.”
More sense in that bit of Ghandi, than in all of Jimmy Carter.
Can’t really figure how Ghandi forgot he said this in the mid 20’s when addressing the Jewish situation in Germany.