Home » Hand round the refreshments: the Luré§at trial (Part I)

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Hand round the refreshments: the Luré§at trial (Part I) — 22 Comments

  1. Neo:

    Remember that “French Culture” from the beginning always supports and has always supported the centralized French state.

    Otherwise, it wouldn’t be allowed to exist.

    France itself is a parody of “Pa’Pere Knows Best, Eh?”. As a nation, France is never so happy as when under the paternalistic rule of a monarch. Sometime the monarch is a monarch (Louis XIV) and sometimes a military figure (Napoleon or De Gaulle): but the principle is the same:

    “Daddy Will Take Care Of You, Enfant”

    The legal system reflects this desire…”Bon Nuit, Ma Petite.”

    A bas La France.

  2. No, it’s pretty clear they want these trials to remain low profile–and in fact, until now, they have.

    They like it to be quiet until they win and then it’s all over the place.

    Thanks for your coverage.

  3. Remember the Maine and consider what it means if a non-guilty verdict is sent through. France 2 becomes morally liable for incitement. I don’t think that would be in the “best interest” of the Republic, nor will that stop the al-Dura imagery being used. I support the defense and strongly oppose these trials at all levels. But I’m not naive enough to think that real justice will come of it.

  4. “Remember the Maine and consider what it means if a non-guilty verdict is sent through. France 2 becomes morally liable for incitement.”

    That’s seems like a good thing to me – since their intentional lie *did* cause someone(s) to die.

    I would also say it is in the best interest of the republic to *stop* this kinda thing from happening. That is why one would have such a law.

    Why have a law that will never be enforced (it will never be in the best interest to hold them liable)? One just might as well get rid of the whole thing, condone the lieing, and make the de facto state de jure.

    Of course, this is just moral grandstanding – an attempt to look good while maintaining you own corrupt power.

  5. I just came from the 4th part of an 8-part series of discussion panels on the recent war between Hezbollah and Israel. This final session completed the Lebanese point of view and the next four will cover discussions from the Israeli point of view. Many very sad and tragic eyewitness stories were heard and it is fortunate when we have the opportunity to hear from all sides. As neophyte neo-cons we are apt to be more open-minded as we are ex-Liberals, thoughtful critical thinkers as opposed to the corollary responses we hear from the so-called Christian right and the loony left. May I ask the group to give some thoughts and clarification to the following?

    >>> More than 100,000 Lebanese civilians were killed?

    >>> More than half of these were children?

    >>> Southern Lebanon soil samples have tested positive for radioactive contamination?

    >>> Southern Lebanon is littered with unexploded cluster bombs?

    >> Why were positions targeted not occupied by Hezbollah? What immediately came to mind here was how do you know it wasn’t Hezbollah targeting non-combatant positions in Lebanon . . . duh.

    >> Why were truckers delivering wheat, vegetables, and fuel targeted? Well what immediately came to mind here was those things are also needed by the Hezbollah/Khomeini militias . . . duh.

    People were to emotional for me to ask these questions – and when you are a non-tenured faculty, you really don’t want to just piss off your colleagues. Overall, their was at least some condemnation of both Israel and Hezbollah, a little for more for the former I felt – a bit of displaced rage from what squarely should be placed on Hezbollah. In a nutshell . . . Just a quick diversion before returning back to Neo’s thread topic :

  6. “For example, the head judge… announced early on that, although witness Richard Landes had been slated to show a videotape, this particular courtroom wasn’t equipped with a functioning video player, and so it wouldn’t be shown.”

    That, sounds like France in a nut shell and illustrates for me what France has become. Decayed, decrepit, debauched and debilitated. How is it Im not surprised? How fitting an image.

    The VHS player is on the self in the closet next to some broken hunk of machinery labeled: “National Honor & Prestige”. That broke down back in the early 1860’s and hasnt been looked at since.

  7. You see, if we slander Israel sufficiently (i.e., early and often), then we’re off the hook. We’ll dodge the Moslem bullet. We’ll show ’em we’re on the right side, that we’re not afraid to take the moral stance in the face of Jewish, or Zionist, or whatever, power and influence. We’re not afraid of either Jews or Zionists. Or their American puppets, no sirree.

    Got that? We speak truth to power. (And even if it’s false, at least it’s accurate.)

    Well, good luck, France.
    Good luck, Britain.
    Good luck, Europe.
    Good luck, World.

  8. “>>> More than 100,000 Lebanese civilians were killed?”

    I don’t know. Can you give a cite for this? Without it I can not comment. It may be higher, it may be lower. Given the Hizbollah used civilians as human shields it wouldn’t surprise me.

    “>>> More than half of these were children?”

    See the answer above. Children make even better human shields.

    “>>> Southern Lebanon soil samples have tested positive for radioactive contamination?”

    Umm – ok? What are you saying? A dirty bomb, a nuclear bomb, Hizbollah has a nuclear device? If you think a dirty bomb or a nuclear bomb then I would say that my listening to you just stopped. Not because I do not think it is possible to use one, but that is the *least* test of them – millions dead and a large area uninhabitable for a few decades would be the main ones. I also do not think Hizbollah is anywhere close to a nuclear bomb either.

    “>>> Southern Lebanon is littered with unexploded cluster bombs?”

    Probably land mines also. That happens in a modern war zone. Next time do not kidnap Israeli soldiers and do not fire rockets across your border.

    “>> Why were positions targeted not occupied by Hezbollah? What immediately came to mind here was how do you know it wasn’t Hezbollah targeting non-combatant positions in Lebanon . . . duh.”

    Again, I need a citation. I know Hizbollah said this often, but that isn’t enough. There could be many reasons (I’m sure it happened from time to time) – faulty intelligence, human error, faulty electronics to name a few. I need to see it was widespread first, otherwise it was an isolated incident and that happens. Your answer may also be acceptable.

    “>> Why were truckers delivering wheat, vegetables, and fuel targeted? Well what immediately came to mind here was those things are also needed by the Hezbollah/Khomeini militias . . . duh.”

    You answered your own question there.

    Ultimately you have on one side a group that is oppressive. You say and do what they want or you die a horrible death. On the other you have a free media and free citizenry. For some reason many on the west tend to believe the totalitarian violent govt over the other. Of course, that is hard to counter, “You are a bunch of lieing liars” isn’t much a defense, and the totalitarian violent govt can ensure that you only see one side. See the Soviet Union (specifically right before their fall) for a great example.

  9. Maybe the evidence tape was a Betamax!

    Anyway, fun reading but I hardly understand your surprise and indignation. This is France. Their legal system didn’t evolve from English common law, and they don’t abide by the US constitution. By American standards, French citizens do not possess freedom of speech, and they certainly do not have American style liberty or protections in many many ways.

    And they’re too ignorant and insular to even understand that.

    It’s another country. The rest of continental Europe is just about the same, as I understand. All we Americans can hope or expect from Europeans is that they don’t ignite world wars or commit genocide anymore.

    It ain’t America. One of many reason I’d never condescend to live there myself.

  10. The courts’ actions are not really surprising given that the concept of “Guilty until proven innocent” is called the Napoleonic Code.

  11. “PERHAPS THE most distinguishing group characteristic of the Palestinians is the fact that no matter what they do or say, they never have to pay a price for the choices they make. In spite of their blackmail, threats and corruption, their war for the annihilation of Israel, and perhaps above all, their mocking contempt for the collective honor of Israel and the West, the Palestinians’ victims line up to support them in their “just struggle against the illegal Zionist occupation.” – Caroline Glick

    Emulating Hizballah, Hamas Launches Satellite TV Station

    … “The satellite broadcasts will allow Hamas to disseminate its radical messages not only among target audiences in the Palestinian Authority administered territories, but also throughout the entire Arab world and even among Arab/Muslim communities in South European countries, which fall within the broadcasting range,”

    The Moral Difference

  12. to Isaiah Hunahun:

    Please don’t go spreading such obviously distorted “facts” around the blogosphere. If these statements were unchallanged in your discussion panels, then the legitimacy of those panels must be called into question.

    Just think – “100,000 Lebanese killed” – so this is more than were killed by Allied bombing raids of Dresden, Cologne, and several other cities combined. Bear in mind that these were raids dropping dozens of bombs from each bomber, and hundreds of bombers in each wave, that went on for several days and nights each.

    “Southern Lebanon soil samples … radioactive contamination” – this is just the same old depleted uranium (DU) canard that’s been going on against the US and Israel for decades. First of all, DU does not cause these effects, and second, I doubt the Israelis used any DU in this war, as DU is mostly for anti-tank use.

    Which organization(s) sponsored these discussion panels? I will bet money that if you let us know, a little Googling will immediately reveal a substantial bias.

  13. People who run hospitals and people on death row have no moral equivalence, none. Q: Are you with the Kurds, Israelis, pro-Democracy Iraqis, seeking a free and peace democratic existence? Or are you with the Khomeini proxies and militants, Wahhabis, ex-Baathist, and other psychopathic nihilist. If you don’t like war stepping on the innocent people of the Middle East then direct your rage on the Radical Mullahs, Hezbollah, Hamas and all the rest. And for all this you may still die under Israeli, American, or anyone’s bombs – welcome to the world we’re inherited, and welcome to the world that will not be fixed in one day, but over many many many generations to come. Some people in the Iron Age wanted air conditioning. It simply was not a time for them and no amount of screaming and crying was going to get it. Teach your children to be fair and critical thinkers – tomorrow will need as many as she can get.

  14. “Please don’t go spreading such obviously distorted “facts” around the blogosphere. If these statements were unchallanged in your discussion panels, then the legitimacy of those panels must be called into question.”

    I think that was his point. Personally, I favor spreading such information around the blogosphere, because if said panel is really that biased, it is an important thing to know.

    Though a direct transcript with full attributions would be better.

  15. Re the broken videotape. Outrageous indeed. But you go off the cliff here:

    …it’s my impression that in the dinkiest courtroom in the smallest podunk town in the USA, if something like that were to happen, a functioning machine would either be obtained or the court would adjourn until one could be located.

    Come on. This from the woman who proclaims “I so love to do research”?

    Once again Neo, your “impression” is just plain wrong.

    “Some of the courtrooms are not even courtrooms: tiny offices or basement rooms without a judge’s bench or jury box. Sometimes the public is not admitted, witnesses are not sworn to tell the truth, and there is no word-for-word record of the proceedings.

    But serious things happen in these little rooms all over New York State. People have been sent to jail without a guilty plea or a trial, or tossed from their homes without a proper proceeding. In violation of the law, defendants have been refused lawyers, or sentenced to weeks in jail because they cannot pay a fine. Frightened women have been denied protection from abuse.”

    Nothing “Eurocentric” or “Blame America First” about it, the world just doesn’t operate in the kind of moral absolutes you seem to like to deal in.

    Just like in today’s article: “Oh my, can you believe those awful liberals have actually demonized Republicans?” Can you believe they have made Bush supporters “the enemy”?? Isn’t that just shameful???”

    As if it would never occur to the virtuous and always fair Republicans to do such a thing.

    You know, the “If you’re not with us, you’re with the terrorists” Republicans, the “If you’re against the war in Iraq you are helping the terrorists” Republicans…

    I find it curious that you sort of glossed over one aspect that I thought you would give more attention to. Suppose you had one of those troubled “political mixed marriages” come to you for professional help. How would you proceed?

  16. unknown blogger: You certainly managed to misread and misunderstand today’s post. And obviously, I was speaking of the regular court system when I made my statement about the video machine, and I stand by it.

    However, that said, the article you linked to about the parallel system of small town “justice” courts in NY and other states is certainly a disturbing one. Although these “justice courts” (a phrase that appears to be an oxymoron) seem to mostly deal with traffic violations, they should be abolished or reformed.

    As for your question about marital counseling for a couple who disagree about politics, the approach would be the same as in any marital dispute or problem, and it would depend on the dynamics of the particular couple. Political disputes shouldn’t require some unique apprach.

  17. You know, the “If you’re not with us, you’re with the terrorists” Republicans, the “If you’re against the war in Iraq you are helping the terrorists” Republicans…

    There are many of like that, anonymous. All Americans.

  18. neo, sorry, I’m just reading what you wrote, which I believe was something like…

    “but it’s my impression that in the dinkiest courtroom in the smallest podunk town in the USA…”

    And if you had read past the third paragraph of the Justice courts article, which reads:

    “In the public imagination, they are quaint holdovers from a bygone era, handling nothing weightier than traffic tickets and small claims.”

    you would would know that they deal in much more than “traffic violations”:

    [A mother of four] went to court seeking an order of protection against her husband, who the police said had choked her, kicked her in the stomach and threatened to kill her. The justice, Donald R. Roberts, a former state trooper with a high school diploma, not only refused, according to state officials, but later told the court clerk, “Every woman needs a good pounding every now and then.”

    Though the justices’ pay is often meager — as little as $850 a year — they can set bail, a basic legal safeguard. They hold crucial preliminary hearings in felony cases and conduct trials on misdemeanors. They preside over civil cases with claims of up to $3,000, and landlord-tenant disputes with no dollar limit, including commercial cases involving hundreds of thousands of dollars.

    I will grant you one thing though, it’s much more fun to trash France than read about this stuff…

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