No need to imagine: these terror attacks were deja vu all over again
Yesterday I wrote that the word “unimaginable” makes no sense in terms of the thwarted terror attacks. After 9/11, they were not only imaginable, but eminently so.
But it turns out it’s even worse than that. Not only were they imaginable, there was even something vaguely familiar about them. It didn’t take long to realize that the plot resembled what is known as Oplan Bojinka, an aborted 1994-95 al Qaeda plan to blow up a group of airliners in flight.
On further study, it turns out that the details of the most recent plot were not just vaguely similar to Bojinka. The resemblance was far greater than that: take a look.
Oplan Bojinka was conceived by our old friends Ramzi Yousef and Khalid Shaikh Mohammed, both now in custody and the designers, respectively, of WTC attacks #1 and #2. The details? Blow up eleven airliners using nitroglycerine packed into contact lens solution bottles. It is estimated that, had the plan gone into operation, about 4,000 people would have died and air travel would have been disrupted for weeks.
The similarities to the current plot are profound, but the apparent differences are interesting, as well–the main one being that the Bojinka operation was to be carried out by the higher-up planners themselves rather than by underlings, and that they would not be committing suicide–although there’s evidence that at least one part of the plot involved suicide: a terrorist pilot would commander a plane and crash it into the headquarters of the CIA (sound familiar?)
Bojinka was meticulously planned: the bombers would plant the explosives in life vests and then disembark from the planes at scheduled stops, before nearly simultaneous detonation over the South China Sea and the Pacific Ocean. The timers for the bombs were in Casio watches.
To give you an idea of Bojinka’s scope, here are the airports that were to be affected:
* Kai Tak International Airport, Hong Kong
* New Tokyo International Airport (Now Narita International Airport), Narita, Chiba Prefecture, Japan, near Tokyo
* Ninoy Aquino International Airport, Pasay City/Paraé±aque City, National Capital Region, Philippines, near Manila
* Chiang Kai Shek International Airport, Taoyuan, Taiwan, Republic of China near Taipei
* Singapore Changi Airport, Singapore
* Gimpo Airport, Gimpo City, South Korea (Now a part of Seoul)
* Bangkok International Airport, Bangkok, Thailand
* Honolulu International Airport, Honolulu, Hawaii
* JFK, New York, New York
* LAX, Los Angeles, California
* Portland International Airport, Portland, Oregon
* San Francisco International Airport, San Francisco, California
The plot was foiled through what might be called a “work accident.” The bombers’ experimentations started a fire in their apartment and they fled while authorities were on the way, leaving behind a precious laptop with all the information about the plot. A confederate who was later sent to retrieve it was caught, and his cell phone led to the capture of some of the others.
The entire story reads like a movie. But if it does, it seems to be a movie that wasn’t viewed very often or with much attention. Because the question remains: how, with all of this history, could the present-day attacks have been called “unimaginable” by the British police? And, semantics and hyperbole aside, why weren’t bans on carry-on liquids in airplanes instituted long ago?
Oh, I know; it’s a risk-benefit ratio. Passengers don’t like being inconvenienced; I don’t like it myself.
One reason all of this may have been ignored is that the way the perpetrators of Oplan Bojinka were caught made them seem like a pack of bumblers. The same was true of the first WTC bombings in 1993. The result? No one took them seriously.
But after 9/11, Bojinka needed careful attention and thoughtful revisiting. All of the previous modi operandi used by al Qaeda should have been studied in great detail, and policies instituted to circumvent them in the future.
It’s a well known fact that Al Qaeda has a marked propensity for recycling its ideas, and it appears that the present-day plot was tantamount to deja vu all over again. It wouldn’t have taken a particle of imagination for authorities to have known that. All it would have taken was the study of history–which, like al Qaeda, has a tendency to repeat itself.
“Most of the infrastructure that the Palestinians have built gets regularly blown up by the Israelis anyway.”
Yes, like the perfectly decent, functional greenhouses in Gaza that were blown up—by Palestinians—because they had been built by Jooooos.
Aid may have been a “trickle” (I’d like some of those “trickle millions”…) but it was aid, nonetheless. Ask widow Arafat where it’s gone.
Good post again neo. I might offer the medias decision to not show scenes of 1st WTC, 9/11, Bali et al because it is too ‘disturbing’ It allows people to brush it aside, to find no need to draw parallels, to simply remember and connect dots. We need these images and reminders to highlight the danger. Far too few people these days pay attention….they barely glance at the news and if they do it is a quick fix MSN ‘report’ or the front page of a paper. They keep doing the same things over and over, and sadly we keep forgetting what they just did. They repeat, and repeat, and repeat..and we forget, and forget. And of course there are those who try to simply dismiss it happened at all. On another topic…I am having problems trying to get a clear picture of this 22 August date. A real worry, or not? Thoughts?
They keep trying till they succeed. One thing you can actually learn from video games is that even the weakest, most inept “hero” can take down the biggest and toughest enemy if he gets unlimited chances to do so, either with infinite lives or restarting the game and trying again.
Throughout the 90s, we let Al-Qaeda off the hook for their unsuccessful terror plots, and only sought a “proportionate response” when they succeeded.
The wages of “proportionate response” was 9-11, and would have been this new attack, were it not for the government wiretapping the great bastion of the MSM, the New York Times, fights so valiantly against.
They should have been and probably will be from now on, but only because it makes the terrorist’s task harder–not impossible. If they can’t conceal liquid explosives in drink bottles, they can seal them in plastic bags taped to their bodies–nobody is patting passengers down.
Banning drink bottles is still worthwhile since it forces the terrorists to use a more awkward tactic that presents more opportunities for him to screw up, but it doesn’t solve the problem.
Here’s a thought, both for increasing security at airlines and decreasing the growing limitations put on all of us by our ostrich-headed pc minders: have two lines at the airport, one just like the current set-up, and a second where you have to walk with shoes on over a floorboard containing the primary texts from the Koran and then tell the agent, “I swear that Allah is not God and Muhammad is a false prophet”. Move right along, sir, thank you.
Not only does history often repeat, but Amadinejad’s often tell us, in advance, exactly what they plan to do: “eliminate the Zionist entity”.
If history, or Amadinejads, don’t fit our preconceived notions, then history and Amadinejads do not compute. It is as if they don’t exist: “‘Eliminate the Zionist entity?!’ Must be a negotiating tactic…”
“The entire story reads like a movie.”
But Hollywood won’t make it. Not PC.
Good point; however, we don’t know at this point that the current arrest didn’t result, at least in part, from just this type of “study”.
But Hollywood won’t make it. Not PC.
Sure it will. The terrorists will be Germans, white South Africans, or right wing American wakos who quote the Bible.
Portland, Oregon huh?
Not surprising. Portland is a vile place. Or at least the people in Portland are vile; the geography is nice. There are many here who would gleefully help any terrorist plot.
Not that our priorities aren’t straight. The school system has failed but we’ll soon have universal health care. I am sure that will work out just fine.
Ah yes Portland … where hating America is patriotic.
“Sure it will. The terrorists will be Germans, white South Africans, or right wing American wakos who quote the Bible.”
Remember the movie version of Tom Clancy’s “The Sum of All Fears”? In the book, the terrorists were Muslims…in the movie, they were unrepentant Nazis.
The world will end with a bang…preceded by the whimper of PC.
ginger wrote: Good post again neo. I might offer the medias decision to not show scenes of 1st WTC, 9/11, Bali et al because it is too ‘disturbing’ It allows people to brush it aside.
Too true, indeed. In a similar way, the government’s decision not to allow the media to show returning coffins of US soldiers dying in the Iraq War, is a clever ploy to try to get people to brush aside the fact that our soldiers are dying needlessly in a war that was completely uncecessary.
Here’s a thought, both for increasing security at airlines and decreasing the growing limitations put on all of us by our ostrich-headed pc minders: have two lines at the airport, one just like the current set-up, and a second where you have to walk with shoes on over a floorboard containing the primary texts from the Koran and then tell the agent, “I swear that Allah is not God and Muhammad is a false prophet”.
But that’s not going to stop the Tim McVeighs, you know…
Tatter wrote: he wages of “proportionate response” was 9-11, and would have been this new attack, were it not for the government wiretapping the great bastion of the MSM, the New York Times, fights so valiantly against.
The NYT did not oppose wiretapping. It opposed wiretapping without warrants. There’s a huge difference.
Warrants take only about an hour or so to obtain from a special judge who exists for this purpose, and are not subject to FOIA. The judiciary provides the necessary checks and balances on the executive. You clearly have no regard for the liberty from government interference which is the bedrock of our nation, and which paleocons like myself uphold.
Rock…sorry, I am not going to play that game with you. This vet, and widow, feels that not showing coffins is respect, nothing more. My CSM husband died service related and I would never have willingly allowed the media to ‘film’ any of it. Your highhanded remarks should shame you every day of your life. But then again, you do stand in the shadows of these good men and women. And it is much easier to belittle than stand for your own freedoms. >>>>>sorry, hateful post, you just punched a button
and now 40 more in Italy, and 3 in US with 1000 cell phones…and what a surprise…they are all Muslims. Sheesh. Life seems just chock full of coincidences nowadays.
“Yesterday I wrote that the word ‘unimaginable’ makes no sense in terms of the thwarted terror attacks. After 9/11, they were not only imaginable, but eminently so.”
Yep, and with the current ban on fluids and makeup, it’s also not unimaginable that before being allowed onto a plane in the year 2016, you’ll be stripped naked, strapped into a straitjacket,and sedated.
Which means you’ll at least be asleep when the bomb surgically implanted in the terrorist babe’s womb goes off and tears your plane in half.
Guess we’ll need to add a body cavity search to that list, huh?
– Brian
ginger, it wasn’t a hateful post.
Respecting the dead is the last real thing that we can do for them and the military attitude toward that is practically (if not totally) agreed. Not just the organizational doctrine but the gut felt demand of the common soldier who sees his or her own face on every fallen comrade. They don’t have to be told to bar reporters from access to the dead because those who have died are revered human beings to them. Often their friend. Often someone they loved.
Contrast the Hezbolla “Green Helmet” taking a dead boy out of an ambulance so that reporters can get a better picture, uncovering the boy and moving his arms and head around to get a better picture, just like the poor thing was a peice of inanimate meat. Watching the film made my stomach turn. The German commentor was absolutely correct that this child was being abused after death. There was no respect in “Green Helmet’s” rough hands, only political opportunity.
That we don’t allow reporters, or people like Rock, to do that to our fallen soldiers makes us *better* than them.
And another thing Rock…..it is primarily the MSM that says these soldiers ‘have died in vain’…..do you know a soldier? Ever really talked to one to discern his thoughts? How about blogs? Our military is speaking out, in the thousands and quite loudly, but most do not want to hear. I’d suggest you take a look at Black5, TFBoggs, Milblogs, MudvilleGazette…among hundreds, no thousands of others. They are talking to YOU my friend, telling you what is really going on and how they feel. Not filtered through a reporters bias, not censored to meet an agenda, just the truth of day to day life. How do you explain that the military is exceeding, yep, exceeding their recruitment goals this year and will end up above quota? These young men and women, some over 40 (look it up) are enlisting in record numbers knowing for a damn fact that they are going into combat. How does that square off with your ‘in vain’ theories? Do you really presume they are all idiots? Not nearly so worldly as yourself and simply brainwashed in some way? Or could it perhaps, that they, over half college grads, have a sense of national purpose, courage and integrity that you and your ilk simply lack? You make me sick….you are cowards, pure and simple. You love your ‘right’ to “speak truth to power” but would not raise a finger to protect that right. Shut the hell up. Show me your DD214. That is the only thing that gives you the RIGHT to presume to speak for those who defend your rights.
“But that’s not going to stop the Tim McVeighs, you know…”
Congrats to Dave the bunny! The first in the thread to bring the Timthing in!
Problem with this illogic is, there was only one TMV.
Rabbit:
Better you had said, that won’t stop the Tim McVeigh (no “s”). And you know what stopped him?
Execution. You should try it.
I thought Dave was being ironic…Am I being naive!??!?!?!?!?
Yep, Dave’s a certified moonbat.
“But that’s not going to stop the Tim McVeighs, you know…”
Congrats to Dave the bunny! The first in the thread to bring the Timthing in!
Problem with this illogic is, there was only one TMV.
You’re forgetting his friends in the “militia movement” who aided and abetted him.
Then there are also other crazy secular terrorists like the Unabomber… let’s not forget him, either.
And another thing Rock…..it is primarily the MSM that says these soldiers ‘have died in vain’…..do you know a soldier?
Look at what the soldier Carl Webb is saying:
http://carlwebb.net/press-release.html
Also, look at what a soldier’s mother, Cindy Sheehan, is saying.
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How do you explain that the military is exceeding, yep, exceeding their recruitment goals this year and will end up above quota?
Its Recruitment Goals Pressing, the Army Will Ease Some Standards
NY Times
October 1, 2004
ERIC SCHMITT
WASHINGTON, Sept. 30 – To help meet its recruiting goals at a time when its forces are strained by operations in Iraq and Afghanistan, the Army has lowered some requirements for recruits.
The changes are among the clearest signs yet of the military’s growing problems in recruiting and retaining soldiers. They mean that many hundreds of recruits who would have been rejected in the past could be enlisted this year.
Source:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1232092/posts
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really….this from Reuters:
http://today.reuters.com/news/articlenews.aspx?type=topNews&storyid=2006-08-10T205042Z_01_N10462276_RTRUKOC_0_US-IRAQ-USA-RECRUITING.xml&src=rss&rpc=22
New recruitment has been down, not unusual in an uncertain war, however, reenlistment is running significantly higher than expected. The “retaining” line is inaccurate, but then an article from Oct. 2004 is rather meaningless now.
Information should be in context and timely.
Oct 04 and Aug 06…..it does make a difference
Rock, Cindy Sheehan’s son volunteered, not just for the Army but also for the particular mission where he was killed. I mean really volunteered. He didn’t have to go that day, he was “off”, but volunteered to go. No one wants to die, but it’s insulting and disrespectful to him and his choices to think that his mother speaks for anyone but her own self.
As for recruitment… it’s not down. Goals are higher, even if goals aren’t met recruitment is actually up rather than down. Reserves and national guard have difficulties because if you’re going to war anyway, why not go active duty? Retention and re-enlistment (yes, I know that’s redundant) are definately up. Way up.
I’d have volunteered for the army just to get away from a mother like Cindy Sheehan. Sheesh! What a deranged, opportunistic *&tch! How long can she make a living out of changing her memories to correspond to her politics of the day?
If recruitment is down, it is because all the gung ho people have already joined and there are not enough people there. In point of fact, the Marines are manpower limited in size, so their recruits have to wait for next year or the year after that for inprocessing. Or whatever they call it. The Air Force and what not may and i stress may, ahve problems because the economy is booming and all the tech geeks are going civilian and making money.
“Or whatever they call it.”
It helps to know what you’re talking about when you make a comment…otherwise, you come off sounding like the clueless leftbot you are.
The moonbats often forget to throw in abortion clinic bombers into the “right-wing” terrorist white guys club. I’ll go ahead and throw that in for them now.
It still doesnt come close to equal.
Im also certain every ‘winger’ on this thread readily denounces the Tomothy McVeighs of the world.
Thats another important difference between us and the moonbats.
Don’t forget the many retireds who have been taking advantage of civilian programs in their former specialties. Every one frees up a uniformed member for other duty closer to the pointy end or helps fill a crtical specialty. Lots of former unit pins being seen recently on older foks filling these positions.
In reference to Neo’s post, all of these people have no difficulty exercising their “imaginations”
Ym
The fact that many of the nation’s college campuses have tossed out the ROTC programs, sort of adds to the problem. We used to be able to get the best and the brightest, the cream of the crop into ROTC programs but thanks to the left, it really is becomeing a ” poor man’s war” because ya’ll just simply do not want the military on your campuses.
Ymarsakar as a leftbot is really funny. 😉
And it’s true that the Marines have to wait. Delayed enlistement is the norm. You’d think that Marines would have difficulties being even more likely to face combat than the Army but they aren’t.
The Air Force and Navy are meeting their goals even *with* the booming economy. And to go off on a bit of a tangent… Air Force or Navy doesn’t mean a person won’t see the sand-box, particularly for certain career fields. Even so, our Navy and Air Force aren’t on the front lines in this and people who lament our supposedly shortsighted “over extending” of our military forces should remember that.
Hey, ymar-
Sorry. Mistook your handle for the REAL leftbot yhamir. Still, if you’re going to talk about military matters, you need to be sure of what you’re saying. Nothing disturbs someone in the service like a civvie making statements with no knowledge of what’s actually going on…kind of like the MSM.
The fact that many of the nation’s college campuses have tossed out the ROTC programs, sort of adds to the problem. We used to be able to get the best and the brightest, the cream of the crop into ROTC programs but thanks to the left, it really is becomeing a ” poor man’s war” because ya’ll just simply do not want the military on your campuses.
That’s a pretty lame excuse. People can still enlist in the military without going through the ROTC — no one is stopping them from doing so.
08/11/06 DoD Identifies Marine Casualty
Lance Cpl. Jeremy Z. Long, 18
08/11/06 AFP: Baghdad bloodshed holds no fear for last of Iraq’s Jews
08/11/06 DoD Identifies Army Casualty
Staff Sgt. Tracy L. Melvin, 31
08/11/06 Reuters: Six bound and blindfolded bodies found in Baghdad
08/11/06 Reuters: Gunmen kill civilian in Baiji
08/11/06 Reuters: Gunmen kill policeman in Mosul
08/11/06 Centcom: BODIES OF TWO US SOLDIERS RECOVERED
08/11/06 NPR: Atmosphere of Suspicion Pervades Iraqi Society
08/11/06 AP: Lance Cpl. Joshua Rynders wounded in April
08/11/06 AP: Cpl. Jackson Luna wounded in June
A sniper shot Cpl. Jackson Luna, 23
08/11/06 Reuters: Bodies of U.S. soldiers found in helicopter wreck
08/11/06 AP: Shiite mob torches Kurdish party office
08/11/06 BBC: Attack kills two in northern Iraq
08/11/06 AFP: Battle for Baghdad: US and Iraq plan street by street offensive
08/11/06 Reuters: U.S. Soldier wounded in Baiji
08/11/06 CNN: Najaf suicide bomb toll rises
08/11/06 CNN: Soldier: ‘Death walk’ drives troops
‘nuts’
08/11/06 CNN: Blasts rip Baghdad despite security
08/11/06 CNN: Investigator: U.S. soldier poured kerosene on raped, slain Iraqi
08/11/06 CNN: nvestigator: Troops drank, golfed before Iraqi killings, rape
Day after day America will wake up to this. Day after day America will rightly turn away from the Iraq Occupation in anger. This is not because America is weak but rather because America is strong and just. Unfortunately sometimes our government over-reactes for vain political and partisan purpose. Stand up for America. Stand up for a stable and just foreign policy.
Pete, put a cork in it. Nobody is interested in your “teletypes”, nobody reads them, they waste Neo’s bandwith.
Adam, ROTC is not about “enlisting”. ROTC is about officers. At the end of four years in ROTC and with your college degree, you were commissioned, not enlisted, as an member of the Officer’s Corps of whatever branch your ROTC program was. You then went to Orientation, Branch School and then to a unit. Now those wishing to be comissioned have to go through more hoops that take more time out of their young lives. It narrows the socio-economic base of the military even more, not a positive thing.
The program turned out some pretty good officers; in modern times, Colin Powell and Hugh Shelton. University of Oregon still holds the record of having turned out a total of 44 general officers. Now, they’d be run off campus.
Wenescentwasp (and I am certain, others here) would like me to “put a cork in it”. More than 60% of America wants the troops home pronto and think that the war was a big mistake. 80% of Dems concur (adios Lieberboy). That’s mainstream America baby! That’s 180,000,000 Americans. Have you got a really big cork?
Your hostility, as displayed in your “put a cork in it” crack, is probably a result of your receiving the same “put a cork in it” treatment from your family and coworkers. This is likely because of your penchant to support deadly partisan politics and your inability to admit mistakes.
I wish you well though.
These lyrics illustrate the fate of Ahmadinejad and his Army of God quite beautifully at the moment:
Time will tell on their power minds
Making war just for fun
Treating people just like pawns in chess
Wait till their judgment day comes, yeah!
Now in darkness, world stops turning
As the war machine keeps burning
No more war pigs of the power
Hand of God has sturck the hour
Day of Judgment, God is calling
On their knees, the war pigs crawling
Begging mercy for their sins
Satan, laughing, spreads his wings
All right now!
War Pigs – Black Sabbath
Partisan politics as a language for understanding or dealing with all of this are over. It doesn’t matter who was a liberal and is now a neo neo. These are labels that have become irrelevant. Dig deeper.
But hears the real scoop.
“”War Pigs” is an anti-war song by British heavy metal rockers Black Sabbath from their 1970 album, Paranoid. The song talks about war and the absurdities of those who make war without regard to the powerless people who are sent to die. It’s sometimes called a protest song.
It is the opening track on Paranoid, Black Sabbath’s best selling album. It can also be found on every live and compilation album by the band along with Paranoid itself and “Iron Man”. The instrumental part in the end of the song is called “Luke’s Wall”.
Originally intended to be the title-track, the name of the album was changed to Paranoid, as Black Sabbath’s record company feared a backlash by supporters of the Vietnam War. It is one of Black Sabbath’s most popular songs, and is still played on Classic Rock stations regularly.”
The Air Force and Navy are meeting their goals even *with* the booming economy.
“When they are asked about it directly, most Americans think that poverty is still a problem in this country, even in these generally prosperous times. In fact, a majority of Americans think poverty is not just a problem but a big problem.”
Source: National Public Radio
http://www.npr.org/programs/specials/poll/poverty/
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Treating people just like pawns in chess
You mean, as Bush does? By sending other people’s kids to die in a needless war while his own kids aren’t enlisting (though of military age)?
Didn’t start it, but I guess it’s all in the eyes of the beholder baby.
Does that feel good, pete? Exposing yourself? Showing everyone what you haven’t got? I mean a brain.
so far all you’ve done here is regurgitate leftist pap. Actually, my family and friends pretty much agree that militant Islamofascism is a danger to Western Civilization and that it is long ast time to confront it. You see pete, we’re not part of the scummy crust of effete elitists that has collected in certain parts of this country and we all vote. Many of us have served in the military and that includes women as far back as WW II. We’re all pretty clear eyed and getting impatient.
Odd, that with that many people the Demorats still can’t take the presidency, or the congress. Oh, I forgot, Diebold.
When the time comes, we’ll drop you and your friends down the memory hole. And, if you act out, we’ll find someplace nice for you to stay until you can function in society.
In the past 10 years approximately 420,000 Americans have died on our nation highways. Half of those due to drunk drivers. In the past ten years
approximately 3500 Americans have died due to terrorism. So go ahead and ask me what I am conerned about in regards to my families safety. Do you drive.
Al Qaeda is a small organization (if it can be called that at all) that in its wildest dreams couldn’t harm more more Americans in ten years time than does accidental drownings in one year. So ask me again where are my safety and security concerns. Hope you can swim.
Buenos noches,
“In the past 10 years approximately 420,000 Americans have died on our nation highways. Half of those due to drunk drivers. In the past ten years
approximately 3500 Americans have died due to terrorism. So go ahead and ask me what I am conerned about in regards to my families safety. Do you drive.”
Oh, well, when you put it that way its really not so bad is it? What are we afraid of then? WTC, London, Madrid, anyone of the victims of those attacks may have just as easily been killed in simple transportation accidents. Better they all go at one time deliberately rather than to string out the inevitable.
Actually pete, you got me thinking.
I have an idea for you that you can start on in the morning when you wake up. (I meant that in the physical sense naturally).
Along with your list of servicemembers killed in Iraq, you can compile another complimentary list of those people killed in auto accidents. One years total for each.
Since Im betting you’ll find more people are killed in auto accidents than killed in service to their country, you should quickly come to the conclusion that the casualties in Iraq are no big deal and less so, because your family isnt going to be in the slightest way involved.
Of course the drawback is that your dead servicemember list wont be quite the propaganda tool for you would it?
Of course Pete, we realize that you are your own best tool.
The actions of the British in stopping this bomb plot were classic examples of good international police work. President Bush touted this as part of the “war on terror,” but it apparently did not involve any army, navy or air force.
No bombs were dropped. No country was invaded. No one was killed, and nothing was destroyed.
It was effective, and it did not enrage millions as the invasion of Iraq has done. It was a police action, not an act of war.
The “war on terror” is not a war. President Bush calls it a war so that he can be a wartime president and claim to be a heroic protector of America, but this is bogus.
Terrorism cannot be fought with armies. They make things only worse. Mr. President, bring the armies home and concentrate on good police work.
The New York Times
Letter to the Editor
Pub. Aug 12 2006
Actually, Pete brings up an interesting subject.
He reminds me of some of the WW2 vets in my family. I wasn’t alive at the time, but when I was a little kid they were still grumbling about “Roosevelt’s War”….”saving Stalin”s ass”. No, they weren’t believers in the good war by a long shot.
In fact, , we even had an authentic war hero, an Uncle Bill who was serving in Patton’s army. When he heard FDR was dead he commandeered a jeep and careened around shouting “hooray the old bastards dead.'” He caught sh@t for that, and came home a hero, at least to his near and dear.
Naw, they weren’t nazis, just old fashioned small town republicans with FDR derangement syndrome. And while not liking the war, or thinking much good would come of it, shut their yaps (at least til it was 99.99% over) and did their duty.
Which, is why , Wee Petey, I honor them and despise you.
Fight em till theyre all dead.
“That we don’t allow reporters, or people like Rock, to do that to our fallen soldiers makes us *better* than them.”
Isn’t denial wonderful….
harry mallory wrote:
Of course Pete, we realize that you are your own best tool.
Pete’s definitely the perfect tool.
Harry mallory’s thinking: There are more deaths of Americans on our nations highways than there are American deaths in Iraq so lets keep killing US troops in Iraq despite no clear rational for doing so.
Does anyone else here agree with Harry?
To Armchair pessimist
America is not going to “shut it’s yap”
and allow a war born of US partisan politics to continue given the apparent costs. Mainstream America is turning a deaf ear to terror histrionics of the neocon. AMainstream America is saying what many of us knew all along … it’s a job for law enforcement not our military.
Pete:
My guess is that a lot more than “law enforcement” was involved in the foiling of the London terror plot. Since much of what goes on to effect such an event is secret (in spite of the NYT), you and the useful idiots who sit safely at your computers will never know just how much you owe to thousands of dedicated service people around the globe, and the terrible “military-industrial complex” that keeps you safe. Suffice it to say that we protect you anyway, even though you are so blind and foolish as to think that a 30+ year old song has any bearing on the present at all.
What a putz.
Terrorism cannot be fought with armies. They make things only worse. Mr. President, bring the armies home and concentrate on good police work.
What a fag – and it mean that in the most nonspecifically sexual way possible, as it is commonly used in regards to sexual orientation.
pete:
“Harry mallory’s thinking: There are more deaths of Americans on our nations highways than there are American deaths in Iraq so lets keep killing US troops in Iraq despite no clear rational for doing so.”
Or we may simply ignore and allow terrorist acts at home and abroad for the same reason. Which was, after all, your reasoning in the first place. Not mine.
Seems to me you believe blowing up innocent civilians here and there in terrorist attacks are preferable to you than people getting killed fighting the war on terror. Is that what you consider “clear & rational”?
BTW; We are not killing troops in Iraq. Terrorists are and it looks as though your approach to fighting terrorism would be to fight the symptoms rather than the disease itself. Just make it a law enforcement issue. For you I suppose, an easier pill to swallow.
So maybe an occasional terrorist or group of terrorist gets thru security and law enforcement screens and blows a bunch of people up in this country. Its the price you pay for not getting your hands dirty.
Since both victims of terrorism and our own casualties in fighting the WOT are both lower than the number of automobile deaths per year, Im still wondering why you raise such a fuss about one over the other. Your obviously not likely to get caught in either. Its not a pill you dont have to take.
Its not a pill you dont have to take.
er, its not a pill you have to take.
}:
The day is going to come when all the petey’s in the world are going to have to make the decision to fish or cut bait. Some will make a stand and will be taken down.
The petey’s will slink home, turn the blanket up to high, hit the fetal, stick their thumbs in their mouths and shiver until the world goes away. Meanwhile they will hang out in places where they can do their, “Look at me! I’m confronting the Beast. Look at me!”
They’re just tartar at the gumline and need a little extra brushing to expunge. Weak, very weak, petey.
Terrorism cannot be fought with armies. They make things only worse. Mr. President, bring the armies home and concentrate on good police work.
There they go again, the Left always wanting to impose the police state of 1984 on people they deem inferior and morally degraded.
I don’t know about the rest of you, or you Neo, but I prefer not to live in a police state where the military is on every block in my city.
stumbley | 08.11.06 – 8:40 pm | #
If you know what it is called, then feel free to enlighten us, stumb.
Still, if you’re going to talk about military matters, you need to be sure of what you’re saying.
As Synova confirmed my claims with her comments, I did know what I was saying. What I didn’t know was what they called recruit inprocessing. Names and acronymns are very popular in the military, I can’t know them all. So I’ll call it inprocessing, but I also lay it out so that someone can correct me.
There is RIP. Ranger Indoctrination (heh) Program. I see that as Recruit InProcessing when thinking about boot camp recruits.
Stumb, you can either say where I am wrong, or you can say nothing, but criticizing people because it feels good is not exactly a disciplined action. If I was Yam, what would it matter so long as my claims are valid? Synova wrote down her views, that recruitment was up despite the good economy. Which is consistent with my reasoning that recruitment goes down naturally in a good economy, so that deficiencies should not be attributed to war.
Whatever they call it means just that, whatever they call it. I call it one thing, if you got a problem with that, speak up. If you don’t like the fact that I don’t know what it is called, enlighten me. Don’t, however, criticize and then say it’s my fault for displeasing you.
If there’s nothing wrong with my facts or my statements or my arguments, then all that is left to criticize is based upon emotion, and emotion should not be the final decider in terms of human behavior.
To Richard, there was this graduation speech at Fort Brad (or some other fort in Georgia), and the LTC that gave it was saying that the best and brightest was out amongst this parade ground rather than in the universities. I agree with him. The most intelligent are not all in the universities. There are people who can’t afford college, ivy league or even communal. There are people whose entire families did not go to college going back generations. They are intelligent, but what’s more, they acquire wisdom which is not available for college students normally.
I don’t remember any comparative stats on ROTC officer commissions compared to enlisted recruitment, so I can’t say whether the ROTC purge program has done anything. It doesn’t help of course, but I do not know what damage it has done or will do. I do know that it won’t stop those with talent and skills from joining the military. If the military is their calling… then well, few things can stop them or dissuade them.
Sorry. Mistook your handle for the REAL leftbot yhamir.
That’s okay, since there are more than 1 of us, you know. (Joke refering to ConfudeForeigner’s accussations that Ymar was crazy)
That’s a pretty lame excuse. People can still enlist in the military without going through the ROTC — no one is stopping them from doing so.
While that’s true, it doesn’t mean this s
While that’s true, it doesn’t mean this sabotage operation should be treated with kid gloves. America’s security rests not only upon this generation but the future one as well. Without RoTC, the future foundation will be weakened. Without good officers, the NCOs will be hamstringed and mass fatality casualty events will occur.
Harry Mallory wrote: BTW; We are not killing troops in Iraq. Terrorists are and it looks as though your approach to fighting terrorism would be to fight the symptoms rather than the disease itself.
Sorry, but if you really want to confront the “disease itself”, then you’ll have to look at the underlying causes. Merely saying that terrorism is “evil” and has no causes is a cop-out.
What are the underlying causes of the terrorism?
There’s tremendous anger against us (and against Britain, to a lesser extent) in the Arab world. Why is this the case? There are two reasons.
1) Because the Arab world sees us as less than an honest broker in the Israeli-Arab conflict. Rightly or wrongly, we are perceived as partial to Israel, and always eager to overlook Israeli atrocities while we condemn atrocities committed by Israel’s ooponents.
2) Because the Arab street sees us as propping up corrupt, authoritarian regimes in Egypt, Jordan, Morocco, Saudi Arabia and the Gulf States, because these regimes act in our interest. So, when we talk about freedom, to ordinary Arabs in these countries it seems as if we are hypocritical.
Once we address (1) and (2), some real progress will have been made.
Dave, something that I tell my children… They can’t control someone elses behavior or control someone elses feelings or beliefs. They can only be responsible for their own actual behavior and not how it is perceived.
We can’t stop those who preach that Israel eats babies and we can’t be responsible for those who believe what they are told. We aren’t responsible, any more than the Jews in Germany were responsible, when all the ills of the Arab world are laid at our feet.
It’s not *healthy*, Pete, to make yourself responsible for other people’s beliefs and feelings. It’s not healthy for you and it’s not healthy for them.
By taking responsiblity for the perception of the “Arab Street” we can only affirm and prove that what they believe is true. The only thing that can happen is that those who are inclined to shake their heads at the nutcases in their midst will decide that there must be something to it after all since we’re acting like it’s all our fault.
Local leaders and national leaders in those nations have a vested interest in presenting the people with an outside source for their misery. That won’t change. Nothing we can do will change that. And we’re the biggest and most attractive scape goat available.
The “rightly or wrongly” of it *matters*. The perception is not valid just because it exists. The perception is not disproved if we act guilty or responsible for it.
I also wanted to say one thing about the “UK used legal police tactics” idiocy going on. England, (and Europe even more-so I believe), does NOT have the same limitations and protections that we have in our legal system. That they didn’t break any of their laws doesn’t mean that what they did would be legal in the United States. That it was primarily carried on by the police does not mean that the police *there* are as limited in what they may do as police are *here*.
Personally, I’d much rather have what Bush has been doing than live under the legal system of England. Not that it’s horrible, but it is NOT what we are used to.
Synova, but we do prop up corrupt, authoritarian regimes in Arab countries. We are, in fact, propping up the Saudi regime and the Egyptian regime of Hosni Mubarak. These dictators are among our close “allies”. We keep providing these dictators with billions of dollars of military aid, and with political support, even though they oppress their people.
This is not just a matter of perception. This is also reality.
Synova wrote: “Personally, I’d much rather have what Bush has been doing”
What Bush has been doing seems to be indirectly creating more and more terrorists.
From today’s New York Times:
“Jon B. Wolfsthal, of the Center for Strategic and International Studies, said on Friday: “If I could ask one question as an interrogator to the guys they just arrested, I’d want to find out who they were and what they were thinking about this kind of attack before Iraq, or after. I’d want to know whether they have longstanding anger at the U.S., or are we adding fuel to the fire, and making new extremists. I don’t mean that Iraq was right or wrong, but every action has consequences.”
“In the current issue of The Atlantic, James Fallows argues that the imagery of the “long war” — one that has already lasted longer than the Korean conflict — is self-defeating. “An open-ended war is an open-ended invitation to defeat,” he wrote. “Sometime there will be more bombings, shootings, poisonings and other disruptions in the United States.” Some will be the work of Islamic extremists, some not. He added: “If they occur while the war is still on, they are enemy ‘victories,’ not misfortunes of the sort that great nations suffer.”
“For Mr. Bush, however, dropping the talk of a “long war” would be to send a message that America can go back to sleep. Thus, each terrorist attack or threat is woven into the bigger picture of a global struggle.
“It helps explain the recent redeployment of American troops to the streets of Baghdad: to pull out early would be a return to the failed approach of the 1990’s. It would be another Somalia, another Beirut.
“The problem is whether staying may give the jihadists something else: A narrative of never-ending conflict, in a war to be fought in Baghdad, in Lebanon and in economy class over the wing of a 747.”
Dave, if we can’t do it all should we do nothing?
One of the best things, the most profound things, about Iraq is that it signifies a fundamental change in our historical tendancy to favor the strong man who likes us even if he is a tyrant or despot. Social justice matters. Freedom and liberty matter. We’re starting to recognize that favoring “stability” is a lie.
That we are changing *away* from our past policies is a good thing. But how often do you hear a litany of past propping of dictators (such as the charge that we put Saddam in power) as some sort of proof that we don’t have the *right* to do anything different? What sense does that make?
I don’t know to what extent we support Saudi or Egypt and I don’t know what goes on behind the scenes. I know that women have recently been awarded the vote in Kiwait. There has been *some* progress in Egypt.
Is it better to maintain relationships with those countries and their rulers or would it be better to cut them off? If your favorite candidate becomes president in ’08 will you demand they cease all dealings with Saudi or Egypt? Would that result in faster reformation of those countries?
Also, last I checked, the people attacking us aren’t doing so because we are friends with Saudi Arabia.
Adam: And Jon B. Wolfsthal is under the illusion that the newly arrested terrorist conspirators would tell him the *truth*?
Why would they?
If there is one thing that terroristis like to do it’s talk. They talk, they publish stuff. There’s no need to guess about what they want you to know. Today’s cause may be Iraq. What was yesterday’s cause? The day before that? A decade ago? What reason was there for 9-11? The Cole? Why were Embassies burned and people killed over cartoons (the worst of which were added?) The statements, the information is all out there.
I believe a note was even left on that Dutch film maker’s body.
Why does Wolfstal seem to think it’s a mystery? Why does Wolfstal seem to think that a response would be accurate?
Synova: You’re making the mistake of thinking that the terrorist suspects of the airplane plot are motivated by the same things as the terrorists of one or two decades ago. That may or may not be the case, and so it needs to be found out.
Remember that these arrested suspects are reported to be mostly in their early twenties, and British-born and raised. Thus, their backgrounds are probably quite different from the terrorists of yesteryears. It can only be useful to know/ find out what motivated them. Knowledge is power.
—
Synova wrote: “I don’t know to what extent we support Saudi or Egypt and I don’t know what goes on behind the scenes. I know that women have recently been awarded the vote in Kiwait. There has been *some* progress in Egypt.
Is it better to maintain relationships with those countries and their rulers or would it be better to cut them off? If your favorite candidate becomes president in ’08 will you demand they cease all dealings with Saudi or Egypt?”
It seems that the huge US aid paid to Egypt is being used to resist reform rather than accelerate it. See the article below from the Christian Science Monitor newspaper. The entire article is available by clicking on the link below:
http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/0412/p07s01-wome.html
$50 billion later, taking stock of US aid to Egypt
By Charles Levinson
Contributor to The Christian Science Monitor
CAIRO – Amid fresh fighting by US forces in Iraq, Sunday’s meeting between Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak and President Bush at his Texas ranch serves as a reminder of America’s deep involvement in this other key Arab nation.
Aid is central to Washington’s relationship with Cairo. The US has provided Egypt with $1.3 billion a year in military aid since 1979, and an average of $815 million a year in economic assistance. All told, Egypt has received over $50 billion in US largesse since 1975.
The money is seen as bolstering Egypt’s stability, support for US policies in the region, US access to the Suez Canal, and peace with Israel. But some critics question the aid’s effectiveness in spurring economic and democratic development in the Arab world’s most populous country – a higher US priority after Sept. 11, 2001.
“Aid offers an easy way out for Egypt to avoid reform,” says Edward Walker, the US ambassador to Egypt from 1994 to 1998. “They use the money to support antiquated programs and to resist reforms.”
I’d want to know whether they have longstanding anger at the U.S., or are we adding fuel to the fire, and making new extremists.
The basic thought here is that the US shouldn’t do anything to anger the terrorists. Especially not try to stop terrorist acts or try to topple terror-supporting despots. The paraphrase: Terrorism is ‘created’ by fighting terrorism – a nonsensical thought that must be disguised here as concern over public relations.
Hand-wringing over what the ‘Arab street’ thinks about the US is a waste of time. The West will never win a propaganda war because virtually all the organs of propaganda are in collusion with the terrorists to the point that they even refuse to identify them as ‘terrorists.’ That’s not going to change anytime soon and when and if it changes, it will have nothing to do with public relations efforts or trying to suck up to the terrorists.
“These people are poor, not stupid.”
On the contrary—people who spend much of the aid money wasted on them by purchasing explosives instead of building infrastructure, educating their young in something other than suicide, and allowing their “elected” officials to be corrupt beyond imagining, are as stupid as they come.
“I’d bet my house that Hizbollah has nothing to do with the alleged airline plotters. Bush is being very dishonest in this respect. Again.”
I must’ve missed that? When did he say they were?
“Sorry, you’ve lost me. Who are you talking about?”
Oh, I think you know. It’s a direct quote from your post, after all. But just to ensure that you’re clear on the concept…the “oppressed”, “downtrodden”, “occupied” folks who believe that the answer to all their problems is the destruction of Israel and the West, and the means for achieving same consists of strapping explosive belts on their young or murdering each other in internecine rivalries…you know, THOSE stupid people.
I’d have thought that the primary premise is to understand the motivation. Lumping everyone who opposes US foreign policy as just terrorists is quite wrong.
We know and understand their motivation; that’s why we are killing as many as possible.
The subject was terrorists and terrorism, not “everyone who opposes US foreign policy.” I really do wish the anti-war crowd would read more carefully.
Hamas, Hizbollah the PKK etc are quite different in MO and motivation to Al Qaeda, or the other more religious extremists.
Their differences are mere window dressing. The important and salient characteristic they all have is they all want to kill us and our allies. I wish the anti-war crowd would learn to prioritize. Another interesting characteristic they share is that they are all populated by Muslims.
They are fighting an occupation on their land and both Hizbollah and Hamas were encouraged to join the democratic process by the US administration.
If only these groups would limit themselves to “the democratic process,” but the problem is that they don’t. They continue to murder innocents, assassinate opposition leaders and attack Israel.
“Is the use of “Jooooos” some sort of slur that you use to prove how intelligent you are?”
No, clearly you don’t think I have a brain in my body. But since you’re like all the other leftbots who regularly post here, I’m done.
Hamas was elected whilst having a unilateral cease fire after all. What else could they do to show good faith?
What else? How about renouncing terrorism, recognizing Israel’s right to exist and not lobbing rockets into Israel from a neighboring weakling state? That would do for starters.
The common factor you mention of being muslim is dangerously close to advocating racism in my book.
The anti-war crowd is always ready to hurl ad hominem – such as the above suggestion that I’m a racist. They play the race card every chance they get. Apparently poor ‘justaguy’ thinks that Muslims constitute a race. Interesting.
Suicide bombing is not confined to muslims, I can assure you, and arabs are better educated than you might believe. They are very curious and engaged people generally.
I wish ‘justaboy’ would’ve spared us the condescending assurances. I would think that an Arab or Muslim would want to retch upon reading his laughable attempt to characterize their culture, which is awkwardly coupled with an apology for terrorism – (“not confined to Muslims”). Kind of insulting, if you ask me. Especially since you’ll look in vain for any reference by me of Arabs. It’s justaboy that assumes when I’m talking about terrorists that I’m referring to Arabs. I believe that’s called a ‘Freudian slip.’
If only Israel would stay within its borders and stop the harassment and killing.
Israel had every right to stop the rockets.
The rockets are stopped for now. Let’s all hope it stays that way. But if the terrorists begin the rockets again there will probably be more war and more destruction of Lebanon.
Hamas was elected whilst having a unilateral cease fire after all. What else could they do to show good faith?
What else? How about renouncing terrorism, recognizing Israel’s right to exist and not lobbing rockets into Israel from a neighboring weakling state? That would do for starters.
Well, they didn’t lob rockets into Israel. Get your facts straight. Hizbollah didn’t either. Israel started the shelling in both Gaza and Lebanon.
Israel’s right to exist vs Palestinians right to return/compensation. Israel to acknowledge grievances and take some responsibilty for a change.
Starting positions. Talk required first. Good faith to be established by both parties..
The rest of your post is pathetic. It is a common tactic amongst bullying childish semiliterates to play victim and throw insult simultaneously.
So if you wish to converse, argue honestly or leave it to someone who can.
Well, they[Hamas] didn’t lob rockets into Israel. Get your facts straight.
Funny, the Washington Post and a bunch of other news outlets thought Hamas had launched rockets into Israel.
The anti-war crowd tends to parrot anti-war slogans instead of going to the trouble of research.
Html works a little different here. Hit the link below for the WaPo article.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/07/04/AR2006070401040_pf.html
“The rest of your post is pathetic. It is a common tactic amongst bullying childish semiliterates to play victim and throw insult simultaneously.
So if you wish to converse, argue honestly or leave it to someone who can.”
Pot, meet kettle.
The link doesn’t work, but I’m 100% certain that you are wrong.
Try my comment beginning with “Html works a little different here.” Then get back to us on that “100 %”.
Remember the beach shelling? Hamas ended their cease fire AFTER that.
I’ve finally got it. Justaboy is talking about the cease fire during which Qassam rockets were fired from Palestine into Israel throughout the time-period(January, 2005 through June, 2006) of the so-called “cease fire.” With cease fires like that who needs war? Check out what Human Rights Watch(hardly a friend of Israel) had to say to Hamas during the “cease fire” by clicking on the link below:
http://hrw.org/english/docs/2005/06/09/isrlpa11106.htm
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