Petite woman of the world,unite! You have nothing to lose but your dowdy, ill-fitting dresses
Listen up—you are about to receive some intimate personal information about neo-neocon: I’m five feet, four inches tall. And, what’s more, I tend to do better in petite sizes, despite the fact that 5’4″ is ordinarily the cut-off for petites.
Trying on dresses, I usually look like a child borrowing my mother’s clothing if I put on a regular misses size (and yes guys, you can tune out here if you like; this is gonna be bor-ing). Even if the dress fits elsewhere, the sleeves flop over my hands, the waist lies somewhere around my hips, and the shoulders are too big.
And now—quelle horreur!—I read that petite clothing sizes may be in jeopardy. Yes, three stores—Neiman-Marcus, Saks, and Bloomingdale’s—have suddenly and simultaneously eliminated their petite departments.
Bummer and double bummer, even though I don’t shop there. And I’m not alone in these feelings:
Feeling overlooked and undervalued, [petite customers] have written the stores angry letters and groused, often loudly, to salespeople. “It’s horrible, just horrible,” said Laurel Bernstein, 60, a 5-foot-1 Manhattan resident who stormed out of Saks’s flagship store in March after learning that the company had stopped carrying petite sizes. A lifelong Saks shopper, she has not returned since.
The emotional response from petite consumers has proved so strong that Saks is reconsidering its decision. “It appears that we have frustrated some customers,” said Ron Frasch, the chief merchant at Saks. “We are trying to figure out how many we have frustrated.”
Some manufacturers of more upscale petite clothing have followed suit (pun intended) and plan to stop making their lines. But what they really need to do instead is change their lines.
Because one thing I can tell you is that it is hard work finding attractive clothing in petite sizes. Long ago I noticed that petite clothing tended to be dowdy. The Times article agrees:
…petite departments gained a reputation for traditional – some would say frumpy – career-oriented clothing. Chic looks, clothing executives said, never made the leap from regular sizes to petite. So the very word petite became synonymous with many women who shopped there – working women over the age 50.
I never could figure out the reason the styles were so old-fashioned and old-ladyish, until I looked around one day while shopping in the petite department and noticed that a great many of the other customers were elderly women who appeared to have shrunk.
That’s not me, fortunately; I’m merely middle-aged, and I’m the same height I always was. And don’t tell me to go to the junior department—not any more, although every now and then I do venture in there. But even though I’m not a frump (or, at least, I try not to be), jeans that end an inch above the top of my thighs and tops that end many inches above that are not exactly what I’m looking for.
But Ann Stordahl, executive vice president for women’s apparel at Neiman Marcus, has a plan. She says that:
…designers were making clothing smaller than a decade ago and that Neiman Marcus orders extra size zeros and twos, knowing they will appeal to petite women. Even without petite sizes, she said, “there are many offerings for the smaller size customer.”
Extra size zeros and twos, how marvelous!! Earth to Ms. Stordahl: “petite” does not mean “size zero or two.” Although I draw the line at telling my dress size (revealing my height is quite enough disclosure for one day), let’s just say it’s a trifle larger than that. The same is certainly true for most petite women.
But I became curious about the serendipitously-named Ms. Stordahl. What does she look like? Through the kindly services of Google, I believe I’ve found her:
Ms. Stordahl is the attractive blond lady on the right. She certainly doesn’t appear to be a petite, although it’s impossible to be certain from a photo. But it does seem that her dress size just might be very close to a 2.
When I was younger, I don’t think they even made size twos; at least, I don’t recall seeing them in stores. Six was the lowest the sizes went, to the best of my recollection—a size I (sigh) recall wearing for a time in my ballet dancing days.
Now, though, there’s been a proliferation of miniscule sizes (what’s next, negative numbers?), as well as fashionable clothing in the Plus sizes so many women need. I suppose it’s all another example of greater diversity, and we should applaud it. Which I do. But why, oh why, can’t the petite woman be part of this trend and have some snazzier clothes?
Amy, I can relate! However, I am 4’11” and actually have a womanly figure with curves in places they should be. Sometimes the narrow sized juniors department clothes do not accomodate my frame and it’s probably a good thing because I really don’t want to look like I am trying to hard to fit in with my teenaged daughters. (Although I can really dig the low waist trend which means I can find jeans that fit my short waisted torso!) The petite departments and stores often offer more “career” looking clothes, which does not fit my lifestyle. (Like I am going to wear a light pink cashmere sweater with sequins on it to my construction office)
I agree neo-neocon, ordering additional smaller sizes into the ladies department isn’t going to help me any. If the crotch hem falls 3 inches below my, well, crotch, then no matter how talented the seamstress hems the inseams, I am not going to get the pants to fit me comforatbly.
Kudos for this article!
Well, I went to buy some camouflage trousers the other day….but I couldnn’t find any.
Cheers tommy Cooper.
Ah, what a joy. I actually started blogging (which, I vowed I would never do) because I got so frustrated ranting to my poor friends about this. (see my posts: http://somesmallsense.blogspot.com)
I definitely feel that a lot of this is size discrimination. There’s no purely economic reason that niche markets are so poorly developed in this country for petites and plus sizes.
Yes, they indeed have size 00P clothing because I have to buy and alter them to get professional looking clothing. Who’s gonna take you seriously if you look like you’re 14 and wearing your mom’s stuff? I lack the height (I’m 4’10”) and chest to pull them off otherwise.
I’m healthy but definitely thin, and I’m not apologetic about it. It’s hard for me because I’m small (read: scrawny) but all women that are not within a very small range of “average” have trouble finding stuff. And if you’re petite (or sub-petite) it’s impossible to buy off the rack.
I used to wear a size 2 regular at Banana Republic not quite 10 years ago, and now I have to take in a 00P. Clothing sizes are the only thing where the perception of being lower than average is actually great.
David, the reason toothpaste is easier is because it has a much longer shelf life than clothes. And it’s not like you won’t get a mint gel if the mint paste wasn’t available. Both toothpastes work and do the job. For clothing for hard to shop sizes, it’s not a preference thing – it’s completely a practical thing.
As for the comment – “Where the heck did anybody get the idea that “more 0’s, 1’s & 2’s” would solve the petite clothing shortage? What planet does that woman live on?”
Well, I live on the same one as you. I can’t help my height, and I can’t help my weight. I get to enjoy a lot more children’s departments than you and find that out that I’m about the same size as a 10 year old girl. But, you’re right, the petite clothing section sucks, but part of the problem is that we’re all different heights and shapes.
For anyone that’s petite and looking for non-frump, try Banana Republic, JCrew, and Ann Taylor.
Wickedpinto,
I was just about to respond with a “I don’t have a body-image problem, I have a can’t-find-clothing-to-fit problem”, and I began to wonder:
Do larger women truly have a body-image problem, or do they have the same clothing-doesn’t-fit problem? Because I’ve seen alot of larger women look stunningly beautiful when they are in well-tailored clothes. But there doesn’t seem to be a large selection of well-tailored clothes in most stores; in fact the designs I see are almost…contemptuous of the larger womans’ figure.
And maybe that’s why men don’t seem to suffer from “body-image” problems; because they can always find clothes that fit. The only way that’s going to change is if clothing designers manage to convince men to go hide everything they’ve got in a caftan, or other similarly inelegant shapeless thing.
ROAR! I left out my summation comment.
so just assume this is actually the last line of the previous post.
“Most men just love whoever they are with, and every woman deserves to feel beautiful”
STRCPY commented about how men have the same problems.
and I can relate, I’m 6’2 with a 34″ inseem(spelling?) and a 31″ waiste. (well, I’m gaining weight and thats getting kinda tight now, but that doesn’t matter, I was once a 29″ waiste, with a 34″ inseem same thing)
But the difference is that for men, thats a point of pride for the most part.
Women sometimes feel ostracized and outcast with their “outside the norm” or “not a size six” sort of self hate that they steap on eachother.
On the Opposite end of the scale, had a friend who’s mother was very large, she would only shop either during the working day, or at night, becuase honestly? Women treat women different.
A tall guy going to a big and tall store, what do you think is go through his mind? He’s thinking “I’m out of socks, and I really nead a new sports coat” A woman going into a “16+” store? Many of them are thinking “I feel so fat”
Not too many guys, at least straight guys, have a body image problem, and (in my experience it’s true) gay guys do a good job of addressing body image to the point that everyone is intimidated to offend it, if you know what I mean.
Women however?
It’s different. Thats part of the reason I was willing to make a joke of this.
As a guy, chicks, at least chicks who like guys, should listen to the indifference that men have about the specifics of feminine body culture.
It would seem this is an opportunity, a golden one, for an entrepeneur to openb a new business, with new dseigners, with the input from y’all, and have it done by way of the net, avoiding the stores…. just send in the measurements, the style, colors and voila, your outfits….
Can’t believe I found this thread. Came to the conclusion long ago that clothing manufacturers are simply “stuck on stupid”. And I’d love to have a word with the marketing genius who came up with “vanity sizing”.
Firstly, all you ladies who are petites and can’t be bothered to have skirts and pants shortened, (and I say this reasonably good naturedly), please.stop.complaining. Now. Really. What I would give to have clothes that fit everywhere else but just need shortening. Because I can’t clothe myself, at all. Petites are too short in the arms and legs and you can’t, you know, ADD fabric.
– I gave up my office job to work at home partly because it became – literally – impossible to find suitable clothes that fit.
– I used to be a size 4 but am now apparently a size…0. And my weight hasn’t changed in 30 years. I guess “zero” is an appropriate name for that size since it also seems to refer to amount of stores that carry it.
– Since the size 0’s are also getting larger, I hear talk of bringing in size…double zero! Gosh, I can’t wait to be a double zero, but I suppose it’s better than being a “negative two”.
– If you find yourself rolling your eyes at the disclosure of my size, don’t worry. It’s a regular reaction from clerks in clothing stores, too. Oh yeah, and sneers. And comments like “why don’t you try eating more?”. Love that one. Can you imagine saying something like “why don’t you try eating less?” to someone on the other side of the size spectrum? Me neither. Or the “why don’t you try the teen’s department?” As if I long to wear purple bellbottoms at 45 years of age. Also can’t imagine suggesting to a larger sized woman to “try the men’s department”; it’s just simply not appropriate clothing. (Well, yeah it’ll fit; you didn’t want it to actually look nice, did you?)
– Spent every Saturday on fruitless and endless shopping trips in the vain hope that THIS would be the day I find a pair of pants, a dress, a coat, some piece of clothing that fits. I want all those hours back. And I want retailers/manufacturers who respect my time.
– Oh, and this is my favourite, probably because I hear it so often: “no sorry we don’t have a smaller size, it sold. “It”. As in singular. And “The small sizes sell really, really quickly”. Well now there’s a brilliant sales strategy. You sell a particular product really, really quickly and you continue to stock only one. Because…you don’t want to sell more? The law of having your sale rack stuffed with size twelves will be broken? You fear small women coming into your store regularly to spend money? Obviously I am missing something here.
– And Petite ladies, don’t you just love the colour choices in your size? I guess I should be thankful that at least beige and black go together. And for the love of God, if you’re a size 2 why on earth do you need an elastic waist? (Actually, why does any size require an elastic waist?)
Sorry for the rant, but jeepers that felt good. And I may have found a dressmaker who will gladly take all the money that I would have spent in retail stores, so hopefully this will be my last clothing rant, ever.
My gf is about 5’4′ 100 lbs. She buys all her clothes from Victoria’s Secret or Express. Everyone thinks she’s a teenager.
I feel for you. I am 5’5″ with a healthy, old fashioned Swedish physique (generous bodice, belly and backside) which puts me in a modern 14/16. When I shop in plus sizes, the clothes always end up waaaay too long. Apparently these clothing makers think the “plus” also means “plus height”. No true.
Additionaly, many clothes makers think that just making clothes bigger, without changing anything else about the pattern, is all they need to do. Thus, you end up with a larger version of “regular” clothing that does not fit or flatter. For instance, the evil of low-rise jeans. A woman whose hips and butt need a size 14 or 16 often is uncomfortable having her generous hips hugged in such a way. I’ve had to go up sizes just to find something I could wear without getting arrested!
Coldwater Creek is a wonderful mail order company that carries petite sizes.
I have to order petite pants because my legs are short, and I refuse to pay $60 for a pair of pants plus $10 for shortening them.
Don’t tell me to shorten my own pants, because I always end up with one leg shorter than the other.
Well I definitely have the opposite problem @ 5’11”!
But I have to say that somehow we are catered for better in the high fashion market, as the designers are rather more used to tall then petite.
In the world that I move around in, being petite and a size 2 is an absolute winner, and being tall simply means every inch counts.
Ugh, petite sized clothes are AWFUL! I haven’t shopped a petites department in years–not so coincidentally, since I worked where the dress code was strictly observed, and Macy’s had a pretty OK line or two.
Other than that, REALLY! Wouldn’t it be great to get a pair of Seven (or other non-grandmotherly) jeans that didn’t come with a 34″ inseam? Or a skirt with a hemline that doesn’t need reconstructive surgery?
And I’ve gotta say, the size 0-2 thing is a joke. IF you can find something in 0 or 2, it’s usually something meant for teenagers.
How sad that smaller people have to look all the way across the planet (Asia? slightly inconvenient!) for properly-fitting clothes. I hate dealing with alterations. Hate it!
I have a small chest but long arms. I’ve been buying clothes from L.L. Bean for the last several years. They recently eliminated their “medium tall” size in shirts, which was perfect for me. Now I’ll have to buy “large” which will look kind of voluminous on me.
If I bought “medium”, the sleeves would end well above my wrists.
Now I *really* don’t want to go shopping any more! Where the heck did anybody get the idea that “more 0’s, 1’s & 2’s” would solve the petite clothing shortage? What planet does that woman live on?
I’m 5’4″ but I wear regular sizes from the waist up and petites in pants & skirts. Extremely frustrating.
Why were people amazed at seeing the back of Ursula?
I thought a “size 2” referred to a band-aid.
My wife and I were watching the tube the other day and channel surfed to a station showing “Dr. No”
We both were amazed when we saw a shot of Ursula Andress from the rear – she was actually zaftig! and speaking as a guy, she looked pretty good to me.
It’s all Twiggy’s fault! Why did everyone fall for that nonsense (not to mention the damage its done to women’s self-image over the years.)
Is it just my imagination but are most women’s dress shoes kind of flimsy? They look like they would come apart if they got a little wet.
I have the same problem as in a previous comment — which is a long torso that prevents a regular shirt from staying tucked in. I try to buy shirts made with extra long tails, which are available, which is an example of the disparity between the options provided by male oriented marketers and those catering to women, by providing special sizes for a male niche market.
A long torso also means that suit coats and blazers off the rack never quite fit — either they look too small because the bottom hem rides too high, exposing the rear end, or if a ‘long’ size is selected to cure that problem the sleeves are usually too long and reach almost to the tips of my fingers.
Pretty sure there aren’t many size 14 women in Iraq anymore.
Cosmetic surgeons are in just as high a demand as the US though.
Could be bullet and incindiary wounds, or it could be the desire for breast implants. Hmmm. tough one.
I can relate to the thought. My daughter comes in at just short of 5 foot 12. Until about three years ago the selection of business and fashion clothing in her size was small (not a pune). She can share (NZ sizes) a 12 and a 14 with my wife (who is 5 foot 8) except that what is demure on my wife becomes a raging mini on my daughter…
Not all petite women are skinny or would fit in a size 2.
Land’s End still makes not only petite sizes, but you can’ have the pants hemmed to any length at no extra charge.
As a man of a certain age I would like to weigh in. What ever happened to the 50’s woman as exemplified in the Playboy of the era?
I like what ever you call it, buxom, zaftig or well rounded. Who wants to hug a sack full of doorknobs? My grade school sweetheart and I reconnected after about fifty years she kept referring to herself as “fluffy” before we got face to face. I’ve got to say that I like fluffy women. If all it takes for an x-ray is a hundred watt light globe keep on walking by.
Obligatory reference to Procrustes goes here.
Well, toothpaste has to be based upon some kind of objective standard of competition. But fashion? It makes up its own reality, according to designer desires.
Those razor wars were funny as heck. 2 blades, no 3 blades, now we have 4 blades,but no we are superior with 5 blades!!
With fashion, that linear progression competitive model doesn’t seem to go into effect for some reason.
For men and women both, the sizes of clothing are a continual joke! I simply don’t understand how the product decisions for clothing are made! You almost have to get things hand made to stand any chance at all of getting good clothing….
Here’s what I don’t understand. Go into a grocery store to buy (say) toothpaste or detergent, and you will be deluged with different variants on the same product. Improved inventory control methodologies have made it much easier to handle variety, and product managers at P&G et al just can’t seem to restrain themselves from taking full advantage of it.
So, why does it seem to be so difficult for clothing manufacturers and retailers to handle a form of variety (sizes) which actually does matter to people?
i can help! send your address, and i’ll make up a care package with fudge, cookies, and other “slimming” goodies.
we’ll have you out of those petites in no time!
I saw a commercial on tv that advertised clothes for big men. It was one of my first introductions to good marketing.
Men also have problems if your a certain size.
I’m around 6’1″, 40 waist 30 inch leggs, and wear a 21 neck size. Almost impossible to find pants that are below 40/32 (usually 40/34) and any collared shirt has shoulders about 4 inches too long. Plus, for reason unknown to me, no shirt is long enough to tuck in. Yes, they make the shoulders for a person of normal proportionin the shoulder but about 5 feet tall for the shirt length. Heck, I have shirts that are xxl’s that doesn’t even make it down to my waist but the shoulders are two or three inches too big.
I can find some that fit. I usually just have to try quite a few on. The sad thing is that I’m not *that* big nor am I an odd proportion. I know quite a few people around my size (though my neck size is usually larger). But I don’t know anyone that would fit most shirts in that size. I don’t know why they make them as such.
Ymarsakar: No coincidence, although I hadn’t seen Bookworm’s post when I wrote mine. But we were both resonding to the same NY Times article.
Going to Japan maybe be safer, but then again I like Japanese culture so what the heck.
Singapore’s good too. I’m not sure what China’s doing in HOng Kong though.
The reason why Asians are small in the chest and in the legs, is because of malnutrition. China, as little as 20 years ago, had foot and meat rationing. Because of subsistence farming. China has only recently joined the industrial revolution.
This applies to Cambodia, Vietnam, etc as well. In the subsistence sense, not the industrial sense.
Ymar,
No joke. I was just in the Philippines last February. I accompanied mom and a couple’a aunts shopping while us grown up guy children stood around holding their shopping bags (insert emasculation joke *here*). I’m 5′ 9″ (Good grief, I almost wrote that 9′ 5″!…), two other cousins are around 5′ 8″ish, and one’s 6′ 1″. Ohmigod! We were towering over everyone in the ladies section. I swear, living in the states really skews your sense of the average human’s size. Most guys were around my size, but my goodness… it was unusual to see a lady above 5′ 4″, and I swear, many of them were around 5′ 1″.
I’m kinda on the short side of average here in the states, but over there…
If you want petite clothing, Neo, take a trip to the Philippines or Hong Kong. You’ll be assaulted by entire malls of sub size 6 outfits. And the exchange rate!
You mention the availability of plus-size clothing. Until recently, I wore a plus size, and I can report that the problem in plus-size departments is that the clothes are TOO fashionable. There are a few dowdy things of the old fat-lady type, depressing navy blue tent dresses, but mostly it’s giant-size versions of slutty teen fashions — lots of plunging necklines, sequins, short skirts, navel-revealing jeans, tank tops with built-in bras. I can’t tell you how grotesque some of these items looked on big women. Impossible to find anything pretty and becoming. Interestingly, now that I shop in the regular Misses dept., I can find more age-appropriate clothes (though not a lot that I like.)
Anyhow, it has to be some kind of comment on something that Petites departments, which serve women who can’t do anything about being short, are being eliminated while Plus-size departments full of wildly inappropriate clothes meant to feed the fantasies of obese women with distorted body-images, are proliferating.
I have the opposite problem.
At 5’10”, most dresses are too SHORT.
Women’s clothing manufacturers that do like men’s manufacturers and actually market clothes by measurements will make a bundle. Even if they limit their lines to basics, I’d buy!
Um, are you, Neo neo con and bookworm, synchronizing your posts or something? Cause BW write about the petite thing just a few days ago I believe. A coincidence or is this another case of telepathy?
I bet China is going to offer petite sizes, cause Asian women aren’t very tall or big. The US stores are just closing themselves out of a demographic. Europe already doesn’t offer petite from what I hear.
petite sizes chaffe my balls.
That apple makes you look about 5’8″ – 5’9″. You remain a very mysterious woman.
My understanding of women’s dress sizes lately is that the sizes are smaller, but the clothing itself is actually larger, the better to console a more voluptuous clientele; women are larger, but they can claim to still be a size 6, when in reality, their size would be a 10 “back in the day.”
I have no idea how this relates to petite sizes. Sorry for the possible hijacking of the thread… :^)
They talk about how Marilyn Monroe was a size 14, but they have shifted all the sizes down because who wants a size in the double digits? I have a dress pattern from 1986. The measurements for a 14 are
Bust 36
Waist 28
Hips 38
On the J Crew website, those are the measurements for a size 8.
The measurements for a size 0-2 on J Crew are the same measurements for the old size 6.
I used to sew all my own clothes when I was in high school. I used size 12 patterns then. I buy size 6 and size 4 clothes now. I weigh the same as I did then.
It’s all a marketing scam.
Marilyn Monroe was a size 14 … I have a dress pattern from 1986. The measurements for a 14 are
Bust 36, Waist 28, Hips 38. On the J Crew website, those are the measurements for a size 8…I used size 12 patterns then. I buy size 6 and size 4 clothes now. I weigh the same as I did then. It’s all a marketing scam.
Actually, it’s not a scam, all the above is evidence of sizing evolution; sizes are a social construct not a mathematical one. Sizes evolve to the median. Vanity sizing is a myth.
And the whole size numbering thing? The numbers *used* to mean something; they weren’t arbitrary.
Prior to ww2, sizing numbers were designates better known as “scale” used by pattern makers. There’s a scale of aliquot parts on the back of an L-square, our most basic drafting tool. For a size 14 (16 18 whatever) that scale was used for each commensurate size. The problem was tho, this number -being based on a composite of anthopometric measures, a formula- was too complex in the heady new retail environment of post war USA and booming consumerism. One couldn’t even double their “size” (really “scale”) number and have it roughly equivocate to their bust or waist measure; it was only meaningful to the pattern engineer. Thus, retailers wrested the size numbering system from the arcane tables of the pattern rooms and developed arbitrary ones.
Summary: If you don’t like the numbers now, don’t blame us. There used to be a logical system whether consumers understood it or not. In such an environment, a 14 (16 or whatever) would have forever remained static similar to men’s sizing.
Good grieg i knew there was a market for petite. I am 54 4/10 and 92 but the petite clothing is way big I am so sick of teeny bopper clothing! I want a two piece suit that looke good any ideas where to find some?
Find yourself a good tailor. I am 5’2″, 110 lb, and 54 years old. Stylish petite clothing is extremely hard to find, however I have finally found myself a great tailor so now buy clothing as close to fit as I can find and have it tailored to fit me. The thing with doing that is that yes, it will cost you more, however you get a perfectly made for you fit. It will make you feel great about yourself. Good Luck.
What I don’t understand is, why is it so hard to find good petite clothing when so many women are petite? I think the number is 41 percent!