Comments on: On Islam and the definition of “religion”

By: miguel cervantes,

miguel cervantes, — Thu, 03 Jul 2025 18:43:49 +0000

you make it hard to agree, the customs and practices, that are common in civil society, that have been less so in the last two generations because pluralism so we have become so ‘open minded’ we welcomed the Old Gods in new vessels, and disdained the true Gods,

the faiths that formed the foundation of this country,

certainly since Engel v Vitale, as a marker,

By: sdferr

sdferr — Thu, 03 Jul 2025 18:34:44 +0000

Yet my point was to give us each pause to ask wherefrom we get our own peculiar attachment to these idiosyncratic terms of ours, terms like “religion”, like “ideology”; terms we use and yet don’t always know so well, central though they may be (all the more reason to pause to reflect now and again!); terms which aren’t the terms of those to whom we attribute them — attribute for ourselves (our purposes) in our own flailing discourses, undsoweiter.

Heh!

There goes another one! “. . . and official culture in this country”. These critters zoom by with astounding frequency.

By: miguel cervantes,

miguel cervantes, — Thu, 03 Jul 2025 18:29:05 +0000

as I noted before, there are certain resonances between Islam and the very Orthodox faith, with respect to customs I guess there is a certain flattery there, except for the facts that the Koran retcons the source, take any Old Testament account, of events,

I assume the Hadiths do similar work,

https://sunnah.com/bukhari:3364

there is a certain slight of hand involved,

One might make the point, that there was a certain coordination between faith and official culture in this country, say the Sunday laws, that
enforced the Sabbath
rules,

By: neo

neo — Thu, 03 Jul 2025 18:23:16 +0000

sdferr:

A group can consider another group’s belief system a religion and yet still want to convert them, forcibly or otherwise.

By: miguel cervantes,

miguel cervantes, — Thu, 03 Jul 2025 18:07:49 +0000

no it was a contrary faith to the Roman pantheon, as it had been to the Persians and the Egyptians, some Pharoahs were more lenient on the point,

that classic trek episode, suggested a modernized Rome would act against the Children of the Son, the one with Commodore Merrick, in much of the Third World, the mere profession of faith, is a grave offense,

By: sdferr

sdferr — Thu, 03 Jul 2025 17:34:34 +0000

Why “religion”?

Because Rome [it’s a Latin word, no]? Because Constantine adopted Christianity, so Christianity becomes the Romans’ (new) religion? So then Christianity appears as a “religion” to itself, and the Roman Christians are content to speak of their religion, and then to speak of others’ pieties as the same as theirs — as “religion”?

What was proper “religion” before Christianity to the Romans? Was the god of the Hebrews and jewish piety “religion” to the Romans, even though these Hebrew ways were certainly not Roman ways? Or were the Romans content to insist that no, the Jews should act upon the Romans’ view of proper piety and abandon all their sacred Jewish rigamarol as empty rigamarol unfit to the honor of the gods, that is, the Roman gods?

What do the Hebrews say of themselves and their pieties: what call they them? They have, I think, terms of their own for their righteous practices given them by “revelations” (as we say to sum the interactions of their almighty with his creations).

And so on with each. A fair amount of disentangling is on order, I think.

And this leaves aside the surprising vagaries inherent in the blithe term “ideology”.

You know, the neologism born in the late 18th century, promoted by Destutt de Tracy and Thomas Jefferson his English translator! Doing headflips through the 19th and 20th centuries like some manic acrobat with nary a clue where he’s going? That term!?

By: huxley

huxley — Thu, 03 Jul 2025 16:53:38 +0000

As I said earlier:

I’m not crazy about Islam. It certainly is an ideology as well.

By: miguel cervantes,

miguel cervantes, — Thu, 03 Jul 2025 16:27:23 +0000

of course its a religion, but it is something more, we see how it manifests itself in places like Gaza or the Taliban emirate, to cite two examples, even in mostly secular countries like Algeria, it sowed a brutal civil war that went on for a decade,
as for the legal system in those countries, ask the brave writer Boulem Sansal, who is in jail for a statement that might not be polemical but is, (regarding Morocco) Turkey for three generations, had a reasonably solid civil society even under the Military Dictatorship,

the general principle was what made the Arab and PAshtun expert Enoch Powell, from his military service, weary about the mass migration that was happening from thpse countries in the 60s on,

By: huxley

huxley — Thu, 03 Jul 2025 15:59:13 +0000

I’ve found that the Encyclopedia Britannica can sometimes get to the core:
_____________________________

religion, human beings’ relation to that which they regard as holy, sacred, absolute, spiritual, divine, or worthy of especial reverence….

https://www.britannica.com/topic/religion
_____________________________

Not bad, but still broad. Certainly Islam passes this test.

To some extent asking “whether X is a religion” is more a matter of the credibility respondents wish to accord X.

By: huxley

huxley — Thu, 03 Jul 2025 15:48:26 +0000

Here are two dictionary definitions of religion:

===========================================
From “The American Heritage Dictionary”

re·li·gion n.
1.
a. The belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers, regarded as creating and governing the universe: respect for religion.
b. A particular variety of such belief, especially when organized into a system of doctrine and practice: the world’s many religions.
c. A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.
2. The life or condition of a person in a religious order: a widow who went into religion and became a nun.
3. A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion: a person for whom art became a religion.

https://ahdictionary.com/word/search.html?q=religion
===========================================
From “The Merriam-Webster Dictionary”

religion noun
1: a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices
2a(1): the service and worship of God or the supernatural
2a(2): commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance
2b: the state of a religious
3: a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith
4 archaic : scrupulous conformity : conscientiousness

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/religion
===========================================

Those definitions are pretty broad. However, they include ways in which people use the word, religion, as opposed to systematic classification.