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	Comments on: Harris believes abortion is a fundamental freedom &#8230;	</title>
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	<link>https://thenewneo.com/2024/10/23/harris-believes-abortion-is-a-fundamental-freedom/</link>
	<description>A blog about political change, among other things</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Fri, 25 Oct 2024 16:52:35 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>
		By: IrishOtter49		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2024/10/23/harris-believes-abortion-is-a-fundamental-freedom/#comment-2768327</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[IrishOtter49]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Oct 2024 16:52:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.thenewneo.com/?p=137743#comment-2768327</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I answered your question is my posts.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I answered your question is my posts.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Richard F Cook		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2024/10/23/harris-believes-abortion-is-a-fundamental-freedom/#comment-2768260</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Richard F Cook]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Oct 2024 23:57:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.thenewneo.com/?p=137743#comment-2768260</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[IrishOtter

Why are you a Catholic at all since you, by your own admission, pick and choose what to accept? Where is the genuineness in that?]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>IrishOtter</p>
<p>Why are you a Catholic at all since you, by your own admission, pick and choose what to accept? Where is the genuineness in that?</p>
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		<title>
		By: Sharon W		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2024/10/23/harris-believes-abortion-is-a-fundamental-freedom/#comment-2768177</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Sharon W]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Oct 2024 17:12:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.thenewneo.com/?p=137743#comment-2768177</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Many excellent comments here. Thank you Neo for starting the topic. Niketas Choniates you have made some excellent points regarding the Constitution, natural rights and domain--Federal or State.  Because the average citizen is completely ignorant regarding these issues, pro-lifers are trodding rough ground. The take-over of education (social studies, not history, etc) accounts for this sad reality.  Also facing the truth that we as a nation are less pro-life than formerly is tied to being a post-Christian culture.  I was very pleasantly surprised that the Republicans in the state of California were unsuccessful in removing the pro-life platform (for now). They sure did try though.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Many excellent comments here. Thank you Neo for starting the topic. Niketas Choniates you have made some excellent points regarding the Constitution, natural rights and domain&#8211;Federal or State.  Because the average citizen is completely ignorant regarding these issues, pro-lifers are trodding rough ground. The take-over of education (social studies, not history, etc) accounts for this sad reality.  Also facing the truth that we as a nation are less pro-life than formerly is tied to being a post-Christian culture.  I was very pleasantly surprised that the Republicans in the state of California were unsuccessful in removing the pro-life platform (for now). They sure did try though.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Niketas Choniates		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2024/10/23/harris-believes-abortion-is-a-fundamental-freedom/#comment-2768175</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Niketas Choniates]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Oct 2024 17:02:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.thenewneo.com/?p=137743#comment-2768175</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Since we have a federal system, since it&#039;s the states that are in charge of policing the people and not the Federal government, since abortion is now back in the hands of the states, I think it&#039;s pretty obvious that pro-lifers should work within their states, and worry about how pro-life candidate for the governors and state legislatures are.

The last time the country really got behind one moral rule for everyone was Prohibition, and I think we should all have learned that it is not the model to follow.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Since we have a federal system, since it&#8217;s the states that are in charge of policing the people and not the Federal government, since abortion is now back in the hands of the states, I think it&#8217;s pretty obvious that pro-lifers should work within their states, and worry about how pro-life candidate for the governors and state legislatures are.</p>
<p>The last time the country really got behind one moral rule for everyone was Prohibition, and I think we should all have learned that it is not the model to follow.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Dave		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2024/10/23/harris-believes-abortion-is-a-fundamental-freedom/#comment-2768174</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Dave]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Oct 2024 16:58:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.thenewneo.com/?p=137743#comment-2768174</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[how can someone have the fundamental god given right to something that wasn&#039;t even consistently safe to do without causing permanent bodily harm just 100 years ago.  if something is what you were meant to do you naturally would have thought nature would have provided a way for humans to do it safely naturally..]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>how can someone have the fundamental god given right to something that wasn&#8217;t even consistently safe to do without causing permanent bodily harm just 100 years ago.  if something is what you were meant to do you naturally would have thought nature would have provided a way for humans to do it safely naturally..</p>
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		<title>
		By: Bauxite		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2024/10/23/harris-believes-abortion-is-a-fundamental-freedom/#comment-2768171</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Bauxite]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Oct 2024 16:40:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.thenewneo.com/?p=137743#comment-2768171</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Kate - I&#039;m not challenging your view at all. I am challenging the practical politics of incrementalist political positions on abortion. It seems like a lose-lose to me. 

I think it is very difficult to construct a moral defense of, say, a 6 or a 15 week abortion ban on anything other than a utilitarian basis. If abortion for the sake of convenience is wrong at 15 weeks or 6 weeks, it is very difficult to come up with a good reason why it isn&#039;t also wrong at 14 weeks or 5 weeks. Heartbeat laws are clever, but I don&#039;t even think that their advocates believe that elective abortion is morally acceptable the day before the heart starts beating. 

You can certainly justify a 6 or 15 week ban, parental notification law, or whatever else on the grounds that it is the best you can get in the current political climate - i.e., on utilitarian grounds. But this that sets up the &quot;worst of both worlds&quot; scenario for pro-lifers. 

First, the law is a teacher, so if elective abortion is legal after 6 or 15 weeks, people are going to become acclimated to the idea that elective abortion is a-ok before that time. Next, since there is really no meaningful difference between 6/5 or 14/15 weeks, I find it very hard to believe that the time-based bans will last, especially in the US where opinions on the pro-abort side are so extreme and so deeply held. 

On the other hand, pro-lifers are going to struggle to get any credit or slack from the electorate for moderating.  Because the 6/15 week bans are only utilitarian, pro-aborts are going to argue, correctly, that pro-lifers would really prefer to ban elective abortion altogether because that is what their principles require. 

Lastly, similar to my first point, I think that history tells us that political accommodations to abortion always lead to more political accommodations to abortion, and eventually to the pro-abort position.  Bob Casey Sr. was a principled pro-lifer. His son initially tried to split the baby and is now indistinguishable from Kamala Harris. Mario Cuomo&#039;s &quot;personally opposed&quot; position was, in my view, a serious (albeit seriously flawed) attempt to grapple with the politics of abortion. But it also was a dead end. If you are accommodating evil, you must not believe that it is really evil.  And I would argue that Mario Cuomo&#039;s children learned that lesson well. I fear that our children will as well.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kate &#8211; I&#8217;m not challenging your view at all. I am challenging the practical politics of incrementalist political positions on abortion. It seems like a lose-lose to me. </p>
<p>I think it is very difficult to construct a moral defense of, say, a 6 or a 15 week abortion ban on anything other than a utilitarian basis. If abortion for the sake of convenience is wrong at 15 weeks or 6 weeks, it is very difficult to come up with a good reason why it isn&#8217;t also wrong at 14 weeks or 5 weeks. Heartbeat laws are clever, but I don&#8217;t even think that their advocates believe that elective abortion is morally acceptable the day before the heart starts beating. </p>
<p>You can certainly justify a 6 or 15 week ban, parental notification law, or whatever else on the grounds that it is the best you can get in the current political climate &#8211; i.e., on utilitarian grounds. But this that sets up the &#8220;worst of both worlds&#8221; scenario for pro-lifers. </p>
<p>First, the law is a teacher, so if elective abortion is legal after 6 or 15 weeks, people are going to become acclimated to the idea that elective abortion is a-ok before that time. Next, since there is really no meaningful difference between 6/5 or 14/15 weeks, I find it very hard to believe that the time-based bans will last, especially in the US where opinions on the pro-abort side are so extreme and so deeply held. </p>
<p>On the other hand, pro-lifers are going to struggle to get any credit or slack from the electorate for moderating.  Because the 6/15 week bans are only utilitarian, pro-aborts are going to argue, correctly, that pro-lifers would really prefer to ban elective abortion altogether because that is what their principles require. </p>
<p>Lastly, similar to my first point, I think that history tells us that political accommodations to abortion always lead to more political accommodations to abortion, and eventually to the pro-abort position.  Bob Casey Sr. was a principled pro-lifer. His son initially tried to split the baby and is now indistinguishable from Kamala Harris. Mario Cuomo&#8217;s &#8220;personally opposed&#8221; position was, in my view, a serious (albeit seriously flawed) attempt to grapple with the politics of abortion. But it also was a dead end. If you are accommodating evil, you must not believe that it is really evil.  And I would argue that Mario Cuomo&#8217;s children learned that lesson well. I fear that our children will as well.</p>
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		<title>
		By: IrishOtter49		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2024/10/23/harris-believes-abortion-is-a-fundamental-freedom/#comment-2768168</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[IrishOtter49]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Oct 2024 16:26:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.thenewneo.com/?p=137743#comment-2768168</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Thanks, Sharon. “Beauty, Truth and Mystery” indeed. That pretty much covers it for me as well. The is just . . . paperwork. :)]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks, Sharon. “Beauty, Truth and Mystery” indeed. That pretty much covers it for me as well. The is just . . . paperwork. 🙂</p>
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		<title>
		By: Sharon Warren		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2024/10/23/harris-believes-abortion-is-a-fundamental-freedom/#comment-2768167</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Sharon Warren]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Oct 2024 16:22:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.thenewneo.com/?p=137743#comment-2768167</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[IrishOtter49--Thank you for the postscript. I&#039;m so glad a loving priest was able to be there for you.  I agree with you regarding &quot;the informed conscience&quot;. Presently my husband and I attend a parish with 2 very traditional priests--kneel at the altar, receive the Eucharist on the tongue). It is a beautiful jewel in a slum (Long Beach is a street-by-street basis). People travel from all over to attend the Latin Mass.  My husband and I prefer the Novus Ordo. We&#039;ve had both of our priests to dinner on separate occasions and feel completely comfortable being who we are and they love, respect and accept us. We chose this parish because the unadulterated truth regarding abortion, homosexuality, and so forth is openly addressed in mild-mannered homilies. We love these priests and are thankful for them.  Since homilies are a part of the Mass the messages here conform to reality consistent with the scriptures and ancient teaching, as opposed to our 3 other former parishes where we were the &quot;conservatives&quot; often listening to the Father CNN (as my one son referred to them) messages.  Here we are the liberals when it comes to the hard and fast rules of observing the sacraments.  It&#039;s a good thing my parents raised me to be comfortable not fitting in.  When we returned to the Catholic Church in 1993 (having both been raised Catholic, but neither practicing as adults--though we married in the Church in 1982) I had gone through the Father Hardon catechism, The Faith.  On the front page I wrote, &quot;Beauty, Truth and Mystery&quot;. I believe this defines our God and our Faith. God bless us all as we are on a journey.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>IrishOtter49&#8211;Thank you for the postscript. I&#8217;m so glad a loving priest was able to be there for you.  I agree with you regarding &#8220;the informed conscience&#8221;. Presently my husband and I attend a parish with 2 very traditional priests&#8211;kneel at the altar, receive the Eucharist on the tongue). It is a beautiful jewel in a slum (Long Beach is a street-by-street basis). People travel from all over to attend the Latin Mass.  My husband and I prefer the Novus Ordo. We&#8217;ve had both of our priests to dinner on separate occasions and feel completely comfortable being who we are and they love, respect and accept us. We chose this parish because the unadulterated truth regarding abortion, homosexuality, and so forth is openly addressed in mild-mannered homilies. We love these priests and are thankful for them.  Since homilies are a part of the Mass the messages here conform to reality consistent with the scriptures and ancient teaching, as opposed to our 3 other former parishes where we were the &#8220;conservatives&#8221; often listening to the Father CNN (as my one son referred to them) messages.  Here we are the liberals when it comes to the hard and fast rules of observing the sacraments.  It&#8217;s a good thing my parents raised me to be comfortable not fitting in.  When we returned to the Catholic Church in 1993 (having both been raised Catholic, but neither practicing as adults&#8211;though we married in the Church in 1982) I had gone through the Father Hardon catechism, The Faith.  On the front page I wrote, &#8220;Beauty, Truth and Mystery&#8221;. I believe this defines our God and our Faith. God bless us all as we are on a journey.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Niketas Choniates		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2024/10/23/harris-believes-abortion-is-a-fundamental-freedom/#comment-2768166</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Niketas Choniates]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Oct 2024 16:18:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.thenewneo.com/?p=137743#comment-2768166</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[@richf:&lt;i&gt; but what she does with her own body isn’t my business.&lt;/i&gt;

Unfortunately abortion involves more than a woman&#039;s &quot;own&quot; body. There&#039;s the rights of the baby, and the rights of the baby&#039;s father, which you are just waving away.

We have a right to do what we want with our own property*, but we no longer consider that we can have &quot;property&quot; in human beings and you can no longer justify slavery by talking about a man&#039;s &quot;own property&quot; and waving away the rights of other humans.

Likewise we ought not to consider a baby as a woman&#039;s &quot;own&quot; body.

*Some restrictions apply...]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@richf:<i> but what she does with her own body isn’t my business.</i></p>
<p>Unfortunately abortion involves more than a woman&#8217;s &#8220;own&#8221; body. There&#8217;s the rights of the baby, and the rights of the baby&#8217;s father, which you are just waving away.</p>
<p>We have a right to do what we want with our own property*, but we no longer consider that we can have &#8220;property&#8221; in human beings and you can no longer justify slavery by talking about a man&#8217;s &#8220;own property&#8221; and waving away the rights of other humans.</p>
<p>Likewise we ought not to consider a baby as a woman&#8217;s &#8220;own&#8221; body.</p>
<p>*Some restrictions apply&#8230;</p>
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		<title>
		By: richf		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2024/10/23/harris-believes-abortion-is-a-fundamental-freedom/#comment-2768157</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[richf]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Oct 2024 15:48:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.thenewneo.com/?p=137743#comment-2768157</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[One question which I think isn&#039;t asked often enough is : if abortion is a right, then is it &quot;negative&quot; or &quot;positive&quot; ?
My (admittedly limited) understanding is that the Second Amendment is an example of a negative right. The Government can&#039;t take your gun. If it were a positive right, then the government would be obliged to provide you with a gun. 
If a hypothetical woman who I don&#039;t know wants an abortion, I may not approve but what she does with her own body isn&#039;t my business.
If the same woman wants said abortion to be provided by the government, then the situation changes. What she does with the taxpayers&#039; money is the taxpayers&#039; business.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One question which I think isn&#8217;t asked often enough is : if abortion is a right, then is it &#8220;negative&#8221; or &#8220;positive&#8221; ?<br />
My (admittedly limited) understanding is that the Second Amendment is an example of a negative right. The Government can&#8217;t take your gun. If it were a positive right, then the government would be obliged to provide you with a gun.<br />
If a hypothetical woman who I don&#8217;t know wants an abortion, I may not approve but what she does with her own body isn&#8217;t my business.<br />
If the same woman wants said abortion to be provided by the government, then the situation changes. What she does with the taxpayers&#8217; money is the taxpayers&#8217; business.</p>
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