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	Comments on: Open thread 7/15/24	</title>
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	<link>https://thenewneo.com/2024/07/15/open-thread-7-15-24/</link>
	<description>A blog about political change, among other things</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Wed, 17 Jul 2024 02:15:41 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>
		By: R2L		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2024/07/15/open-thread-7-15-24/#comment-2750694</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[R2L]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Jul 2024 02:15:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.thenewneo.com/?p=135636#comment-2750694</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Molly Brown - yes, but we cannot see or feel what we do not see or feel, and if I don&#039;t seem to have much of a need or urge to go looking [see Karmi, too?], why should I make the effort?  Roger Walsh suggests meditative practices can find another realm of mental &quot;something&quot;. Others have claimed the same thing, causing Sam Harris (and at least one Substacker I know of) to go searching for that connection as well. But my materialist conjecture is they have (perhaps) simply found some extra mental networks within the brain, or some bio-physical/chemical reactions [perhaps the creation and release of some especially compelling neurotransmitter not normally released, either not yet discovered or not yet seen and recognized in that role.]  Again, conjecture but satisfying to the mostly rational part of my brain/mind, pending learning more.

David Foster - yes, the empathy/ sympathy axis seems a logical place to start with evolving this capability, but I am sure you recognize it comes into play in many non-emotional situations as people conduct their many forms of communication to establish trusted relationships or even just hands-off ones. We even consider the state of minds of long dead authors as we try to plumb the information they have left us. A variation along a spectrum of &quot;intensity&quot; for these various TOM, rational, religious, transcendental, and related mental actions is part of my hypothesis, analogous to variations in many other abilities among humans - and presumably demonstrates a corresponding variation in genomes across a population. 

If physicsguy has studied the QM aspects and claims, I would welcome his summary of what he believes is happening.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Molly Brown &#8211; yes, but we cannot see or feel what we do not see or feel, and if I don&#8217;t seem to have much of a need or urge to go looking [see Karmi, too?], why should I make the effort?  Roger Walsh suggests meditative practices can find another realm of mental &#8220;something&#8221;. Others have claimed the same thing, causing Sam Harris (and at least one Substacker I know of) to go searching for that connection as well. But my materialist conjecture is they have (perhaps) simply found some extra mental networks within the brain, or some bio-physical/chemical reactions [perhaps the creation and release of some especially compelling neurotransmitter not normally released, either not yet discovered or not yet seen and recognized in that role.]  Again, conjecture but satisfying to the mostly rational part of my brain/mind, pending learning more.</p>
<p>David Foster &#8211; yes, the empathy/ sympathy axis seems a logical place to start with evolving this capability, but I am sure you recognize it comes into play in many non-emotional situations as people conduct their many forms of communication to establish trusted relationships or even just hands-off ones. We even consider the state of minds of long dead authors as we try to plumb the information they have left us. A variation along a spectrum of &#8220;intensity&#8221; for these various TOM, rational, religious, transcendental, and related mental actions is part of my hypothesis, analogous to variations in many other abilities among humans &#8211; and presumably demonstrates a corresponding variation in genomes across a population. </p>
<p>If physicsguy has studied the QM aspects and claims, I would welcome his summary of what he believes is happening.</p>
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		<title>
		By: David+Foster		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2024/07/15/open-thread-7-15-24/#comment-2750531</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[David+Foster]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Jul 2024 13:57:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.thenewneo.com/?p=135636#comment-2750531</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[R2L...&quot;Even setting aside transcendence, our abilities in Theory of Mind are pretty phenomenal compared to most other animals
[i.e., I know that you know that he knows what she knows, etc.] &quot;

This is true.  I think it&#039;s also true that Theory of Mind abilities (which often seem to be categorized under &#039;empathy&#039;) vary hugely from (human) individual to individual.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>R2L&#8230;&#8221;Even setting aside transcendence, our abilities in Theory of Mind are pretty phenomenal compared to most other animals<br />
[i.e., I know that you know that he knows what she knows, etc.] &#8221;</p>
<p>This is true.  I think it&#8217;s also true that Theory of Mind abilities (which often seem to be categorized under &#8217;empathy&#8217;) vary hugely from (human) individual to individual.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Cappy		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2024/07/15/open-thread-7-15-24/#comment-2750524</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Cappy]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Jul 2024 12:46:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.thenewneo.com/?p=135636#comment-2750524</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[It&#039;s baffling for Joe Biden.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s baffling for Joe Biden.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Karmi		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2024/07/15/open-thread-7-15-24/#comment-2750514</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Karmi]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Jul 2024 10:37:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.thenewneo.com/?p=135636#comment-2750514</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Lasted about 30 seconds of the video. Other humans trying to explain Consciousness, Transcendental Experiences, etc. has never really interested me.

Am certainly not an expert on anything, but it seems we are born into a physical/material world with a strong connection still ‘&lt;i&gt;Intact&lt;/i&gt;’ to/from whoever/wherever/whatever we came from. Maybe that connection is why some young ones see an “imaginary” ‘&lt;i&gt;Someone/Something&lt;/i&gt;’ – or the term “Guardian Angle” originated from – or maybe that is why humans have a long history of creating “gods” and “religions” – or perhaps where the concept of a ‘&lt;i&gt;Spark of Life within each of us&lt;/i&gt;’ came from – or why people seek the “Meaning of Life” – or go in a search for themselves – and/or etc.

&lt;blockquote&gt;‘Like two golden birds perched on the selfsame tree, 
intimate friends, the ego and the Self dwell in the same body. 
The former eats the sweet and sour fruits of the tree of life, 
while the latter looks on in detachment.’ – The Mundaka Upanishad&lt;/blockquote&gt;]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Lasted about 30 seconds of the video. Other humans trying to explain Consciousness, Transcendental Experiences, etc. has never really interested me.</p>
<p>Am certainly not an expert on anything, but it seems we are born into a physical/material world with a strong connection still ‘<i>Intact</i>’ to/from whoever/wherever/whatever we came from. Maybe that connection is why some young ones see an “imaginary” ‘<i>Someone/Something</i>’ – or the term “Guardian Angle” originated from – or maybe that is why humans have a long history of creating “gods” and “religions” – or perhaps where the concept of a ‘<i>Spark of Life within each of us</i>’ came from – or why people seek the “Meaning of Life” – or go in a search for themselves – and/or etc.</p>
<blockquote><p>‘Like two golden birds perched on the selfsame tree,<br />
intimate friends, the ego and the Self dwell in the same body.<br />
The former eats the sweet and sour fruits of the tree of life,<br />
while the latter looks on in detachment.’ – The Mundaka Upanishad</p></blockquote>
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		<title>
		By: Molly+Brown		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2024/07/15/open-thread-7-15-24/#comment-2750502</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Molly+Brown]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Jul 2024 07:23:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.thenewneo.com/?p=135636#comment-2750502</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[R2L,
&#039;...how is it that a majority of people... the rest of us do not seem to ever encounter them?&#039;
Ask, and it shall be given to you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
For every one that asketh, receiveth; and he that seeketh, findeth; and to him that knocketh, it shall be opened.  Matt. 7:7-8]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>R2L,<br />
&#8216;&#8230;how is it that a majority of people&#8230; the rest of us do not seem to ever encounter them?&#8217;<br />
Ask, and it shall be given to you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:<br />
For every one that asketh, receiveth; and he that seeketh, findeth; and to him that knocketh, it shall be opened.  Matt. 7:7-8</p>
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		<title>
		By: Art Deco		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2024/07/15/open-thread-7-15-24/#comment-2750475</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Art Deco]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Jul 2024 03:19:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.thenewneo.com/?p=135636#comment-2750475</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Did anyone take one for the team and devote 20 minutes you&#039;ll never get back to watching David Brooks and the other PBS poseurs this evening?]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Did anyone take one for the team and devote 20 minutes you&#8217;ll never get back to watching David Brooks and the other PBS poseurs this evening?</p>
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		<title>
		By: R2L		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2024/07/15/open-thread-7-15-24/#comment-2750474</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[R2L]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Jul 2024 03:14:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.thenewneo.com/?p=135636#comment-2750474</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[physicsguy: &quot;Certainly the experiments from Aspect back in the early 80s to now all show that the Copenhagen interpretation is quite in play.&quot;
Can you expand on that for the rest of us? 

JJ: &quot;How do we explain transcendental experiences?&quot;  So the question remains for me, how is it that a majority of people seem to have the ability to have these experiences (or beliefs from them), while a substantial minority of the rest of us do not seem to ever encounter them?  (or perhaps not frequently? or as strongly?)  If as our brains evolved the ability to have these experiences led to enhanced cooperation that aided survival, some variation in this characteristic can be expected with variation in our respective DNA or epigenetic episodes.
Can consciousness be &quot;emergent&quot; from our population of 10^15 synaptic junctions, firing in an astronomical number of combinations, but all involving biochemical interactions [including &quot;love&quot;]. I remain skeptical that any QM level aspects are needed - aside from the impact of cosmic rays on DNA - but I have a couple of books on the subject yet to read, so I try to keep an open &quot;mind&quot; on that.  :-) 

David Foster: &quot;Do dogs, for example, have some level of consciousness but less than that of a human?&quot;
Thus, if dogs have smaller brains, fewer synaptic junctions, etc., they may miss out on something emerging that humans can experience. Even setting aside transcendence, our abilities in Theory of Mind are pretty phenomenal compared to most other animals 
 [i.e., I know that you know that he knows what she knows, etc.] .]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>physicsguy: &#8220;Certainly the experiments from Aspect back in the early 80s to now all show that the Copenhagen interpretation is quite in play.&#8221;<br />
Can you expand on that for the rest of us? </p>
<p>JJ: &#8220;How do we explain transcendental experiences?&#8221;  So the question remains for me, how is it that a majority of people seem to have the ability to have these experiences (or beliefs from them), while a substantial minority of the rest of us do not seem to ever encounter them?  (or perhaps not frequently? or as strongly?)  If as our brains evolved the ability to have these experiences led to enhanced cooperation that aided survival, some variation in this characteristic can be expected with variation in our respective DNA or epigenetic episodes.<br />
Can consciousness be &#8220;emergent&#8221; from our population of 10^15 synaptic junctions, firing in an astronomical number of combinations, but all involving biochemical interactions [including &#8220;love&#8221;]. I remain skeptical that any QM level aspects are needed &#8211; aside from the impact of cosmic rays on DNA &#8211; but I have a couple of books on the subject yet to read, so I try to keep an open &#8220;mind&#8221; on that.  🙂 </p>
<p>David Foster: &#8220;Do dogs, for example, have some level of consciousness but less than that of a human?&#8221;<br />
Thus, if dogs have smaller brains, fewer synaptic junctions, etc., they may miss out on something emerging that humans can experience. Even setting aside transcendence, our abilities in Theory of Mind are pretty phenomenal compared to most other animals<br />
 [i.e., I know that you know that he knows what she knows, etc.] .</p>
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		<title>
		By: Karmi		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2024/07/15/open-thread-7-15-24/#comment-2750469</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Karmi]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Jul 2024 02:24:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.thenewneo.com/?p=135636#comment-2750469</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[&lt;a href=&quot;https://www.understandingwar.org/backgrounder/iran-update-july-15-2024&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow ugc&quot;&gt;Iran Update, July 15, 2024&lt;/a&gt; – snippets: 
&lt;blockquote&gt;The Axis of Resistance is continuing to try to coerce Gulf states into reducing their economic cooperation with Israel .. Kataib Hezbollah warned Saudi Arabia on July 13 that it will “pay the price” for allowing Israel to conduct trade through Saudi territory .. Kataib Hezbollah accused Saudi Arabia of allowing Israel to use overland trade routes through Saudi territory “as an alternative to sea lanes.” Kataib Hezbollah was likely referring to the trade corridor that connects Israel to the Persian Gulf via the United Arab Emirates (UAE), Saudi Arabia, and &lt;b&gt;Jordan&lt;/b&gt;. Israel has increasingly relied on this land route to mitigate the impact of Houthi attacks on international shipping around the Gulf of Aden and Red Sea.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Gulf states ain’t the only ones the “Axis of Resistance” try to coerce, i.e., Egypt and Jordan have held steady for Israel thru such coercive tactics...]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="https://www.understandingwar.org/backgrounder/iran-update-july-15-2024" rel="nofollow ugc">Iran Update, July 15, 2024</a> – snippets: </p>
<blockquote><p>The Axis of Resistance is continuing to try to coerce Gulf states into reducing their economic cooperation with Israel .. Kataib Hezbollah warned Saudi Arabia on July 13 that it will “pay the price” for allowing Israel to conduct trade through Saudi territory .. Kataib Hezbollah accused Saudi Arabia of allowing Israel to use overland trade routes through Saudi territory “as an alternative to sea lanes.” Kataib Hezbollah was likely referring to the trade corridor that connects Israel to the Persian Gulf via the United Arab Emirates (UAE), Saudi Arabia, and <b>Jordan</b>. Israel has increasingly relied on this land route to mitigate the impact of Houthi attacks on international shipping around the Gulf of Aden and Red Sea.</p></blockquote>
<p>Gulf states ain’t the only ones the “Axis of Resistance” try to coerce, i.e., Egypt and Jordan have held steady for Israel thru such coercive tactics&#8230;</p>
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		<title>
		By: huxley		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2024/07/15/open-thread-7-15-24/#comment-2750468</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[huxley]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Jul 2024 02:24:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.thenewneo.com/?p=135636#comment-2750468</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[So where is Joe now?

Word is that the Obama faction is giving up on their palace coup for Joe Must Go. The situation is more complicated.  Trump looks stronger than ever. They don&#039;t want to divide the party.

Furthermore, I think the Democrat nomination is now a poisoned chalice, no matter who drinks from it. So let Joe have it.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So where is Joe now?</p>
<p>Word is that the Obama faction is giving up on their palace coup for Joe Must Go. The situation is more complicated.  Trump looks stronger than ever. They don&#8217;t want to divide the party.</p>
<p>Furthermore, I think the Democrat nomination is now a poisoned chalice, no matter who drinks from it. So let Joe have it.</p>
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		<title>
		By: David+Foster		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2024/07/15/open-thread-7-15-24/#comment-2750435</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[David+Foster]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Jul 2024 23:26:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.thenewneo.com/?p=135636#comment-2750435</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Is consciousness binary?...does someone have it or not have it? (in which case I guess you could call them a something rather than a someone)  Do dogs, for example, have some level of consciousness but less than that of a human?]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Is consciousness binary?&#8230;does someone have it or not have it? (in which case I guess you could call them a something rather than a someone)  Do dogs, for example, have some level of consciousness but less than that of a human?</p>
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