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	Comments on: Abortion, the law, and morality	</title>
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	<link>https://thenewneo.com/2024/06/14/abortion-the-law-and-morality/</link>
	<description>A blog about political change, among other things</description>
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		<title>
		By: Mary Catelli		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2024/06/14/abortion-the-law-and-morality/#comment-2745362</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Mary Catelli]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Jun 2024 01:29:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.thenewneo.com/?p=135137#comment-2745362</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Those who do not wish religion to dictate law should make it clear whether they object to the laws passed by a movement heavily led by ministers.  One prominent minister directed them:

&quot;Let us march on ballot boxes (Let us march) until we send to our city councils (Yes, sir), state legislatures, (Yes, sir) and the United States Congress, (Yes, sir) men who will not fear to do justly, love mercy, and walk humbly with thy God.&quot;]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Those who do not wish religion to dictate law should make it clear whether they object to the laws passed by a movement heavily led by ministers.  One prominent minister directed them:</p>
<p>&#8220;Let us march on ballot boxes (Let us march) until we send to our city councils (Yes, sir), state legislatures, (Yes, sir) and the United States Congress, (Yes, sir) men who will not fear to do justly, love mercy, and walk humbly with thy God.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>
		By: JD		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2024/06/14/abortion-the-law-and-morality/#comment-2745304</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[JD]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Jun 2024 20:14:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.thenewneo.com/?p=135137#comment-2745304</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[While a man may not have legal standing, it is arguable that the unborn baby may have legal standing that could be asserted by a guardian ad litem. To my knowledge, no cases have accepted this argument in the context of seeking to stop an abortion. This is not surprising since common law developed with the rule that a baby isn&#039;t a person until born. There have been cases where guardians have been appointed to represent the interest of the unborn child in where the mother plans to carry the baby to term but is engaging in acts that harm the health of the baby. These cases go both ways. But time marches on, and the argument that science shows that the baby is not simply tissue of the mother, but has its own unique DNA, responds to painful stimulus, and shows other evidence of consciousness in the womb may make this argument worth raising again in the future.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>While a man may not have legal standing, it is arguable that the unborn baby may have legal standing that could be asserted by a guardian ad litem. To my knowledge, no cases have accepted this argument in the context of seeking to stop an abortion. This is not surprising since common law developed with the rule that a baby isn&#8217;t a person until born. There have been cases where guardians have been appointed to represent the interest of the unborn child in where the mother plans to carry the baby to term but is engaging in acts that harm the health of the baby. These cases go both ways. But time marches on, and the argument that science shows that the baby is not simply tissue of the mother, but has its own unique DNA, responds to painful stimulus, and shows other evidence of consciousness in the womb may make this argument worth raising again in the future.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Eeyore		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2024/06/14/abortion-the-law-and-morality/#comment-2745261</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Eeyore]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Jun 2024 16:20:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.thenewneo.com/?p=135137#comment-2745261</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[R2L:

&quot;Natural Law&quot; MEANS that law that man can see without revelation; what is common to Christians, Jews, and Pagans alike. That&#039;s what makes it &quot;natural&quot;. Aristotle doesn&#039;t mention God here; Aquinas cites God only as an explanation, not as evidence or proof in arguing with Pagans.

Another thing to note is that if rights come from the Constitution only, then they are civil, not natural. (A distinction blurred because people associate &quot;civil&quot; with &quot;minority rights.)

Darwin simply has nothing to do with it. Many people before Darwin were believers in materialism. Democritus long before, Hobbes most notably more recently. Arguments that we have a soul are just as valid since Darwin as they were before. They operate on a different plane.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>R2L:</p>
<p>&#8220;Natural Law&#8221; MEANS that law that man can see without revelation; what is common to Christians, Jews, and Pagans alike. That&#8217;s what makes it &#8220;natural&#8221;. Aristotle doesn&#8217;t mention God here; Aquinas cites God only as an explanation, not as evidence or proof in arguing with Pagans.</p>
<p>Another thing to note is that if rights come from the Constitution only, then they are civil, not natural. (A distinction blurred because people associate &#8220;civil&#8221; with &#8220;minority rights.)</p>
<p>Darwin simply has nothing to do with it. Many people before Darwin were believers in materialism. Democritus long before, Hobbes most notably more recently. Arguments that we have a soul are just as valid since Darwin as they were before. They operate on a different plane.</p>
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		<title>
		By: R2L		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2024/06/14/abortion-the-law-and-morality/#comment-2745214</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[R2L]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Jun 2024 04:55:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.thenewneo.com/?p=135137#comment-2745214</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Eeyore on June 14, 2024 at 3:52 pm
I am not sufficiently versed in ancient or modern philosophy to argue with you about natural law possibly being provided via God, ... or not. I had just read some short extracts of Aristotle and Aquinas about natural law and saw the word God used, along with a sense of a &quot;self evident&quot; nature of humans. I interpret that nature to involve some of our evolved instincts; others assert a divine source. But people writing before Darwin, genetics, etc. can be forgiven if they postulate some spirit, elan vitale, or whatever as a source of our core humanity, &quot;created in the image of God&quot;.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Eeyore on June 14, 2024 at 3:52 pm<br />
I am not sufficiently versed in ancient or modern philosophy to argue with you about natural law possibly being provided via God, &#8230; or not. I had just read some short extracts of Aristotle and Aquinas about natural law and saw the word God used, along with a sense of a &#8220;self evident&#8221; nature of humans. I interpret that nature to involve some of our evolved instincts; others assert a divine source. But people writing before Darwin, genetics, etc. can be forgiven if they postulate some spirit, elan vitale, or whatever as a source of our core humanity, &#8220;created in the image of God&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>
		By: R2L		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2024/06/14/abortion-the-law-and-morality/#comment-2745211</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[R2L]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Jun 2024 04:28:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.thenewneo.com/?p=135137#comment-2745211</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Neo: &quot;Why don’t people talk much about this remedy, the amendment process? Because it requires a great deal of consensus. The Founders made amendments difficult to pass, for very good reason.&quot;

I agree with them that amendments should not be made for transient and modest needs or desires. Plus the constitution is intended to define HOW the government works, rather than what legal positions it should take [BOR aside?]. Many positions should be obtained via normal legislative procedures and consensus, not amendments -- something that is all too common in many state constitutional amendments (such as in FL). 

And yet I wonder if the Founders did not end up making it too difficult, such that candidate amendments never get put on the table for wider national debate and &quot;official&quot; consideration. This is why I have suggested previously that perhaps we need an amendment that would make it mandatory that a Convention of the States be called every (say) 50 (or 60) years. We may well need something to side step the Congress when they are in fact creating the problem under consideration. It also provides an opportunity at least once per normal lifetime for a citizen to vote for convention delegates and possibly for ratification of proposed amendments as well.

I gather there are several proposals out there for controlling or restricting the COS agenda under consideration, or preselecting the set of candidate amendments to be addressed. The argument about a potential for a runaway convention can be handled, I believe -- both in the beginning and at ratification if necessary.  

If there really were no viable candidate amendments to be debated, then the COS meets, says things are great, we have checked the constitutional box, and we will see your grandchildren in 50 years.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Neo: &#8220;Why don’t people talk much about this remedy, the amendment process? Because it requires a great deal of consensus. The Founders made amendments difficult to pass, for very good reason.&#8221;</p>
<p>I agree with them that amendments should not be made for transient and modest needs or desires. Plus the constitution is intended to define HOW the government works, rather than what legal positions it should take [BOR aside?]. Many positions should be obtained via normal legislative procedures and consensus, not amendments &#8212; something that is all too common in many state constitutional amendments (such as in FL). </p>
<p>And yet I wonder if the Founders did not end up making it too difficult, such that candidate amendments never get put on the table for wider national debate and &#8220;official&#8221; consideration. This is why I have suggested previously that perhaps we need an amendment that would make it mandatory that a Convention of the States be called every (say) 50 (or 60) years. We may well need something to side step the Congress when they are in fact creating the problem under consideration. It also provides an opportunity at least once per normal lifetime for a citizen to vote for convention delegates and possibly for ratification of proposed amendments as well.</p>
<p>I gather there are several proposals out there for controlling or restricting the COS agenda under consideration, or preselecting the set of candidate amendments to be addressed. The argument about a potential for a runaway convention can be handled, I believe &#8212; both in the beginning and at ratification if necessary.  </p>
<p>If there really were no viable candidate amendments to be debated, then the COS meets, says things are great, we have checked the constitutional box, and we will see your grandchildren in 50 years.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Geoffrey Britain		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2024/06/14/abortion-the-law-and-morality/#comment-2745209</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Geoffrey Britain]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Jun 2024 04:15:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.thenewneo.com/?p=135137#comment-2745209</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[&lt;i&gt;&quot;The Constitution neither guarantees a right to abortion – Roe – nor supports its ban on the federal level through courts or even as an act of Congress.&quot;&lt;/i&gt; 

At conception, a human being begins the process that leads to adulthood. Its entirely arbitrary to decide that prior to birth, human beings have no rights. Labeling a baby a &#039;fetus&#039; is a categorical medical term and it is sheer pretense to claim that one stage in an individual&#039;s life possesses a &#039;right&#039; to life but not at another stage in that person&#039;s life. Note: to assert that personhood begins at birth, is to essentially deny the existence of the spirit/soul. But if they don&#039;t exist, then there&#039;s nothing to take into an afterlife and we all just face obliteration. In which case, make merry while you can and hedonist/nihilism becomes the highest value. 

There&#039;s a label for the taking of an innocent life and the Sixth Commandment directly addresses it; &quot;Thou shalt not... murder&quot;.

&lt;i&gt;&quot;a Constitutional amendment. That is the way to establish a national right or to take it away&quot;&lt;/i&gt; 

If a Constitutional amendment can take away a  national right, then we have no &#039;rights&#039; for to be a right it must possess the quality of unalterableness. So If a Constitutional amendment &lt;i&gt;can&lt;/i&gt; take away a &quot;national&#039; right... what we actually have are privileges, ones determined by the current consensus of the mob. Which is what the mob did when it enacted Prohibition.
This is why the founders stated that, &quot;We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are &lt;b&gt;endowed by their &lt;i&gt;Creator&lt;/i&gt; with certain &lt;i&gt;unalienable&lt;/i&gt; Rights&quot;&lt;/b&gt;. And regardless of the fact that those words are not contained within the Constitution, they are the underlying rationale of the Constitution. 

That&#039;s also why the only lasting basis for &#039;natural&#039; rights, i.e. &quot;unalienable&quot; rights is if they are granted to us by a creator. Absent that precept, we&#039;re left with the chaos of disparate individual&#039;s subjective opinions. The ongoing societal dissolution in America is directly attributable to a society that imagines that it can retain societal cohesion absent theological precepts. 

John Adams wrote directly of this point when he observed that, &lt;i&gt;“Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other”&lt;/i&gt;

Politics is indeed downstream from culture and culture is downstream from a culture&#039;s theological precepts. So ultimately, laws extend down from those precepts.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>&#8220;The Constitution neither guarantees a right to abortion – Roe – nor supports its ban on the federal level through courts or even as an act of Congress.&#8221;</i> </p>
<p>At conception, a human being begins the process that leads to adulthood. Its entirely arbitrary to decide that prior to birth, human beings have no rights. Labeling a baby a &#8216;fetus&#8217; is a categorical medical term and it is sheer pretense to claim that one stage in an individual&#8217;s life possesses a &#8216;right&#8217; to life but not at another stage in that person&#8217;s life. Note: to assert that personhood begins at birth, is to essentially deny the existence of the spirit/soul. But if they don&#8217;t exist, then there&#8217;s nothing to take into an afterlife and we all just face obliteration. In which case, make merry while you can and hedonist/nihilism becomes the highest value. </p>
<p>There&#8217;s a label for the taking of an innocent life and the Sixth Commandment directly addresses it; &#8220;Thou shalt not&#8230; murder&#8221;.</p>
<p><i>&#8220;a Constitutional amendment. That is the way to establish a national right or to take it away&#8221;</i> </p>
<p>If a Constitutional amendment can take away a  national right, then we have no &#8216;rights&#8217; for to be a right it must possess the quality of unalterableness. So If a Constitutional amendment <i>can</i> take away a &#8220;national&#8217; right&#8230; what we actually have are privileges, ones determined by the current consensus of the mob. Which is what the mob did when it enacted Prohibition.<br />
This is why the founders stated that, &#8220;We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are <b>endowed by their <i>Creator</i> with certain <i>unalienable</i> Rights&#8221;</b>. And regardless of the fact that those words are not contained within the Constitution, they are the underlying rationale of the Constitution. </p>
<p>That&#8217;s also why the only lasting basis for &#8216;natural&#8217; rights, i.e. &#8220;unalienable&#8221; rights is if they are granted to us by a creator. Absent that precept, we&#8217;re left with the chaos of disparate individual&#8217;s subjective opinions. The ongoing societal dissolution in America is directly attributable to a society that imagines that it can retain societal cohesion absent theological precepts. </p>
<p>John Adams wrote directly of this point when he observed that, <i>“Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other”</i></p>
<p>Politics is indeed downstream from culture and culture is downstream from a culture&#8217;s theological precepts. So ultimately, laws extend down from those precepts.</p>
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		<title>
		By: R2L		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2024/06/14/abortion-the-law-and-morality/#comment-2745207</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[R2L]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Jun 2024 04:00:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.thenewneo.com/?p=135137#comment-2745207</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Neo, thank you for clarifying the concept of legal standing, and your other expanded comments. And to others for their commentary - very informative.
I was still struggling to understand &quot;redress&quot; so I found this definition on-line: &quot;Redress means to set right, relief or remedy or a means of seeking relief or remedy. It can be putting right a wrong by compensation or compensation for injuries sustained; recovery or restitution for harm or injury; damages or equitable relief.
Right to redress refers to the right to a relief or remedy.&quot;

You mention civil redress as mental anguish and potentially receiving money damages, etc. at 5:59pm. I think that is along the lines of my thinking, but really I brought up the male&#039;s standing as (part of the) justification for making abortion illegal [with selective exceptions].  I am generally in sync and sympathy with Niketas&#039;s remarks, but if your points apply to where it is still legal, then we are not yet discussing quite the same thing. 
And I see Niketas has also raised the parallel issue from the male side: &quot;Our laws have required in the past that spouses consent to things like sterilization, so it wouldn’t be some novel legal theory.&quot;  Not quite the same thing, but similar &quot;harms&quot; might be claimed, and equally justified demands for redress if that kind of law was violated.  I suspect some religions also assert such sterilization to be a sin?]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Neo, thank you for clarifying the concept of legal standing, and your other expanded comments. And to others for their commentary &#8211; very informative.<br />
I was still struggling to understand &#8220;redress&#8221; so I found this definition on-line: &#8220;Redress means to set right, relief or remedy or a means of seeking relief or remedy. It can be putting right a wrong by compensation or compensation for injuries sustained; recovery or restitution for harm or injury; damages or equitable relief.<br />
Right to redress refers to the right to a relief or remedy.&#8221;</p>
<p>You mention civil redress as mental anguish and potentially receiving money damages, etc. at 5:59pm. I think that is along the lines of my thinking, but really I brought up the male&#8217;s standing as (part of the) justification for making abortion illegal [with selective exceptions].  I am generally in sync and sympathy with Niketas&#8217;s remarks, but if your points apply to where it is still legal, then we are not yet discussing quite the same thing.<br />
And I see Niketas has also raised the parallel issue from the male side: &#8220;Our laws have required in the past that spouses consent to things like sterilization, so it wouldn’t be some novel legal theory.&#8221;  Not quite the same thing, but similar &#8220;harms&#8221; might be claimed, and equally justified demands for redress if that kind of law was violated.  I suspect some religions also assert such sterilization to be a sin?</p>
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		<title>
		By: Bob Wilson		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2024/06/14/abortion-the-law-and-morality/#comment-2745192</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Bob Wilson]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Jun 2024 01:45:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.thenewneo.com/?p=135137#comment-2745192</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Republicans need to win elections or else the Democrats’ abortion on demand position will rule. we know that the Democrats will hammer the abortion issue hard, so Republicans need to craft arguments to keep this from being a dealbreaker with persuadable voters. I have a Democrat friend who trots out articles from the left media, claiming that Republican states will not allow women to travel to other states to get abortions. The Florida after six week ban has also been hammered hard. I asked her for links to the stories and I am able to point out that even left leaning articles vetting websites give them false ratings. I do not think my friend is persuadable so I don’t try too hard. Neo, what arguments can we use to reach the persuadable ones?]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Republicans need to win elections or else the Democrats’ abortion on demand position will rule. we know that the Democrats will hammer the abortion issue hard, so Republicans need to craft arguments to keep this from being a dealbreaker with persuadable voters. I have a Democrat friend who trots out articles from the left media, claiming that Republican states will not allow women to travel to other states to get abortions. The Florida after six week ban has also been hammered hard. I asked her for links to the stories and I am able to point out that even left leaning articles vetting websites give them false ratings. I do not think my friend is persuadable so I don’t try too hard. Neo, what arguments can we use to reach the persuadable ones?</p>
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		<title>
		By: om		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2024/06/14/abortion-the-law-and-morality/#comment-2745191</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[om]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Jun 2024 01:44:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.thenewneo.com/?p=135137#comment-2745191</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Karmi thy motto is license.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Karmi thy motto is license.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Karmi		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2024/06/14/abortion-the-law-and-morality/#comment-2745188</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Karmi]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Jun 2024 01:24:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.thenewneo.com/?p=135137#comment-2745188</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Laws, what would humans do w/o them?

Only the woman/mother is allowed to make the choice of aborting the baby. The man/father is then forced to abide by her decision, e.g, if she keeps the baby the man/father didn’t want, the man/father will be forced to support that child until it reaches &lt;s&gt;adulthood&lt;/s&gt; 18-years or so. (&lt;i&gt;am not sure what the law is now on that, but men used to be tossed into jail for missing child support payments&lt;/i&gt;). 

Maybe the &lt;i&gt;Rule of Law&lt;/i&gt; should bring back “&lt;a href=&quot;https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Scarlet_Letter&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow ugc&quot;&gt;the scarlet letter &#039;A&#039; (for &quot;adultery&quot;)&lt;/a&gt;”?]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Laws, what would humans do w/o them?</p>
<p>Only the woman/mother is allowed to make the choice of aborting the baby. The man/father is then forced to abide by her decision, e.g, if she keeps the baby the man/father didn’t want, the man/father will be forced to support that child until it reaches <s>adulthood</s> 18-years or so. (<i>am not sure what the law is now on that, but men used to be tossed into jail for missing child support payments</i>). </p>
<p>Maybe the <i>Rule of Law</i> should bring back “<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Scarlet_Letter" rel="nofollow ugc">the scarlet letter &#8216;A&#8217; (for &#8220;adultery&#8221;)</a>”?</p>
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