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	Comments on: Open thread 6/10/24	</title>
	<atom:link href="https://thenewneo.com/2024/06/10/open-thread-6-10-24/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>https://thenewneo.com/2024/06/10/open-thread-6-10-24/</link>
	<description>A blog about political change, among other things</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Tue, 11 Jun 2024 20:29:28 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>
		By: huxley		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2024/06/10/open-thread-6-10-24/#comment-2744677</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[huxley]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Jun 2024 20:29:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.thenewneo.com/?p=135055#comment-2744677</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Niketas Choniates:

Your approach is a clear example of the Excluded Middle Fallacy -- texts are either fiction or historical truth.

I have great respect for the Bible but it is neither fiction nor historical truth. It&#039;s a tricky business sorting that out. But still worth the effort.

PS. If you are replying to me, I&#039;d prefer you address me as huxley.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Niketas Choniates:</p>
<p>Your approach is a clear example of the Excluded Middle Fallacy &#8212; texts are either fiction or historical truth.</p>
<p>I have great respect for the Bible but it is neither fiction nor historical truth. It&#8217;s a tricky business sorting that out. But still worth the effort.</p>
<p>PS. If you are replying to me, I&#8217;d prefer you address me as huxley.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Rufus T. Firefly		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2024/06/10/open-thread-6-10-24/#comment-2744637</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Rufus T. Firefly]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Jun 2024 18:30:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.thenewneo.com/?p=135055#comment-2744637</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Very well stated, Niketas.

People tend to develop structures where conditions warrant and use/reuse whatever is at hand. Even in modern times, when we have great engineering, utilities and resources, the vast majority of people (90+%) live near the ocean, a major river or the sea. 300 years after Columbus the largest, inland North American settlement was St. Louis and 300 years after Columbus the largest, inland North American settlement was Cahokia, in the same spot.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Very well stated, Niketas.</p>
<p>People tend to develop structures where conditions warrant and use/reuse whatever is at hand. Even in modern times, when we have great engineering, utilities and resources, the vast majority of people (90+%) live near the ocean, a major river or the sea. 300 years after Columbus the largest, inland North American settlement was St. Louis and 300 years after Columbus the largest, inland North American settlement was Cahokia, in the same spot.</p>
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		<item>
		<title>
		By: Niketas Choniates		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2024/06/10/open-thread-6-10-24/#comment-2744577</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Niketas Choniates]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Jun 2024 13:07:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.thenewneo.com/?p=135055#comment-2744577</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[&lt;i&gt;The Lord of the Rings&lt;/i&gt; is not short and contains much detailed, seemingly historical information, but I&#039;m pretty sure it would be a waste of time looking for Noldorin artifacts or hoping to excavate Moria or Gondolin. The primary difference between Middle Earth and Atlantis is that we have a lot more written information about what Tolkein was trying to do by writing at great length about a history he&#039;d invented, and also his writings were never put on such a high pedestal as the ancient and medieval world put Plato&#039;s. But Tolkein, like Plato, wrote a lot that was not fiction, and perhaps one day eventually there will be people trying to locate Moria or Gondolin and complaining that archaeologists aren&#039;t taking them seriously.

As for ancient civilizations, stone and dirt were as in abundance then as they are now, and there is a great deal of time to cover between the first true humans and the oldest accepted civilizations, and I&#039;m sure there are many interesting structures to discover, some of which will be surprisingly old. None of that depends on Atlantis one way or another, and using it to help make the case is pretty counterproductive. And there&#039;s no reason not to align sites with stars if you&#039;re going to build a large structure and you expect the parts of it to line up--what else are ancient people going to have available?

But it&#039;s worth remembering that mines don&#039;t grow back over human time scales, and a Bronze Age-level civilization of any size should have depleted the easy ones in their area. Yet they were still there for the Greeks and Romans to exploit (and they mined them out). So if you think there&#039;s some kind of Atlantis-like thing out there to discover, you&#039;ll either have to show where the mines depleted in that time are, or you&#039;ll have to start saying that physicists and chemists and geologists are all wrong too.  The ones looking for UFOs don&#039;t ever hesitate about that, of course.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>The Lord of the Rings</i> is not short and contains much detailed, seemingly historical information, but I&#8217;m pretty sure it would be a waste of time looking for Noldorin artifacts or hoping to excavate Moria or Gondolin. The primary difference between Middle Earth and Atlantis is that we have a lot more written information about what Tolkein was trying to do by writing at great length about a history he&#8217;d invented, and also his writings were never put on such a high pedestal as the ancient and medieval world put Plato&#8217;s. But Tolkein, like Plato, wrote a lot that was not fiction, and perhaps one day eventually there will be people trying to locate Moria or Gondolin and complaining that archaeologists aren&#8217;t taking them seriously.</p>
<p>As for ancient civilizations, stone and dirt were as in abundance then as they are now, and there is a great deal of time to cover between the first true humans and the oldest accepted civilizations, and I&#8217;m sure there are many interesting structures to discover, some of which will be surprisingly old. None of that depends on Atlantis one way or another, and using it to help make the case is pretty counterproductive. And there&#8217;s no reason not to align sites with stars if you&#8217;re going to build a large structure and you expect the parts of it to line up&#8211;what else are ancient people going to have available?</p>
<p>But it&#8217;s worth remembering that mines don&#8217;t grow back over human time scales, and a Bronze Age-level civilization of any size should have depleted the easy ones in their area. Yet they were still there for the Greeks and Romans to exploit (and they mined them out). So if you think there&#8217;s some kind of Atlantis-like thing out there to discover, you&#8217;ll either have to show where the mines depleted in that time are, or you&#8217;ll have to start saying that physicists and chemists and geologists are all wrong too.  The ones looking for UFOs don&#8217;t ever hesitate about that, of course.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Snow on Pine		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2024/06/10/open-thread-6-10-24/#comment-2744575</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Snow on Pine]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Jun 2024 12:26:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.thenewneo.com/?p=135055#comment-2744575</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[P.P.S.--Was this site--as many other ancient sites were--aligned with particular stars or constellations, with the moon, or with the seasonal rising and setting of the sun? 

With only 5% of the site excavated, and much yet to be discovered, who knows?

If it is true that excavations have essentially ceased, and have been dormant for decades, this is a tragedy, a roadblock deliberately set up against the gaining of knowledge about the history and heritage of the people of the World at a World Heritage site.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>P.P.S.&#8211;Was this site&#8211;as many other ancient sites were&#8211;aligned with particular stars or constellations, with the moon, or with the seasonal rising and setting of the sun? </p>
<p>With only 5% of the site excavated, and much yet to be discovered, who knows?</p>
<p>If it is true that excavations have essentially ceased, and have been dormant for decades, this is a tragedy, a roadblock deliberately set up against the gaining of knowledge about the history and heritage of the people of the World at a World Heritage site.</p>
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		<title>
		By: om		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2024/06/10/open-thread-6-10-24/#comment-2744574</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[om]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Jun 2024 12:23:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.thenewneo.com/?p=135055#comment-2744574</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[They started hoarding dirt.  That behavior is very hard to break, even for Unicorns.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>They started hoarding dirt.  That behavior is very hard to break, even for Unicorns.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
		
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		<item>
		<title>
		By: Snow on Pine		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2024/06/10/open-thread-6-10-24/#comment-2744571</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Snow on Pine]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Jun 2024 12:15:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.thenewneo.com/?p=135055#comment-2744571</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[P.S.  Not the least question about Gobekli Tepi is why, after all this effort to construct the site, the site was then apparently deliberately covered over, buried.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>P.S.  Not the least question about Gobekli Tepi is why, after all this effort to construct the site, the site was then apparently deliberately covered over, buried.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Rufus T. Firefly		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2024/06/10/open-thread-6-10-24/#comment-2744570</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Rufus T. Firefly]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Jun 2024 12:09:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.thenewneo.com/?p=135055#comment-2744570</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[huxley, Snow on Pine et alia,

I&#039;m completely open to humans building all kinds of stuff tens of thousands, even one hundred thousand years ago. Why wouldn&#039;t they?]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>huxley, Snow on Pine et alia,</p>
<p>I&#8217;m completely open to humans building all kinds of stuff tens of thousands, even one hundred thousand years ago. Why wouldn&#8217;t they?</p>
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		<item>
		<title>
		By: Rufus T. Firefly		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2024/06/10/open-thread-6-10-24/#comment-2744569</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Rufus T. Firefly]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Jun 2024 12:07:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.thenewneo.com/?p=135055#comment-2744569</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[sdferr for the thread win!]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>sdferr for the thread win!</p>
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		<item>
		<title>
		By: sdferr		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2024/06/10/open-thread-6-10-24/#comment-2744561</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[sdferr]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Jun 2024 09:16:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.thenewneo.com/?p=135055#comment-2744561</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Find here Plato with cicadas (&lt;i&gt;tettix&lt;/i&gt;) at &lt;i&gt;Phaedrus&lt;/i&gt;, [230c]:
&lt;blockquote&gt;Soc: Then again, if you please, how lovely and perfectly charming the breeziness of the place is! and it resounds with the shrill summer music of the chorus of cicadas. But the most delightful thing of all is the grass, as it grows on the gentle slope, thick enough to be just right when you lay your head on it. So you have guided the stranger most excellently, dear Phaedrus.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0174%3Atext%3DPhaedrus%3Apage%3D230]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Find here Plato with cicadas (<i>tettix</i>) at <i>Phaedrus</i>, [230c]:</p>
<blockquote><p>Soc: Then again, if you please, how lovely and perfectly charming the breeziness of the place is! and it resounds with the shrill summer music of the chorus of cicadas. But the most delightful thing of all is the grass, as it grows on the gentle slope, thick enough to be just right when you lay your head on it. So you have guided the stranger most excellently, dear Phaedrus.</p></blockquote>
<p><a href="https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0174%3Atext%3DPhaedrus%3Apage%3D230" rel="nofollow ugc">https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0174%3Atext%3DPhaedrus%3Apage%3D230</a></p>
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		<title>
		By: SCOTTtheBADGER		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2024/06/10/open-thread-6-10-24/#comment-2744556</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[SCOTTtheBADGER]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Jun 2024 06:57:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.thenewneo.com/?p=135055#comment-2744556</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[F. Frederick Skitty, my favorite Freak Brothers character!]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>F. Frederick Skitty, my favorite Freak Brothers character!</p>
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