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	Comments on: Open thread 2/21/24	</title>
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	<link>https://thenewneo.com/2024/02/21/open-thread-2-21-24/</link>
	<description>A blog about political change, among other things</description>
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		<title>
		By: AesopFan		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2024/02/21/open-thread-2-21-24/#comment-2725040</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[AesopFan]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Feb 2024 08:01:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.thenewneo.com/?p=128917#comment-2725040</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[@ huxley &#062; &quot;the most efficient means of acquiring a language is via interesting input that one mostly understands.&quot;

That&#039;s pretty much the method used at the LDS Missionary Training Centers for foreign-language missions (of course, for the missionaries coming to America, their &quot;foreign language&quot; is English!).
The &quot;interesting input&quot; is largely already-familiar scriptures and doctrines, and just common everyday conversation.
And minimum 14-hour-days of immersion for 3 to 9 weeks, depending on the complexity of the new language.

This must have been a challenging experience:
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/church/news/50-years-of-missionary-language-training-readers-share-how-they-learned-their-mission-language?lang=eng
&lt;blockquote&gt;I served in an every-day two-language mission. In the missionary training center, we learned the Tahitian language for six weeks and then tried to learn French for the next six weeks while trying not to forget everything we were taught in Tahitian. &lt;b&gt;Learning a new language by having instructors teach it to you speaking in this other new language you just learned last week was not easy. &lt;/b&gt;Tahitian and French are not alike—Polynesian language vs. Romance language. Once learned, they can together create an extraordinary mélange of words! I used both languages every day of my mission, but it was several months in the field before I was comfortable with any one language, let alone both.

—Justin Ashton of Fort Worth served in the Tahiti Papeete Mission, 2000–2002, Tahitian and French speaking
&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I&#039;m trying to imagine either of those languages with a Texas drawl.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ huxley &gt; &#8220;the most efficient means of acquiring a language is via interesting input that one mostly understands.&#8221;</p>
<p>That&#8217;s pretty much the method used at the LDS Missionary Training Centers for foreign-language missions (of course, for the missionaries coming to America, their &#8220;foreign language&#8221; is English!).<br />
The &#8220;interesting input&#8221; is largely already-familiar scriptures and doctrines, and just common everyday conversation.<br />
And minimum 14-hour-days of immersion for 3 to 9 weeks, depending on the complexity of the new language.</p>
<p>This must have been a challenging experience:<br />
<a href="https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/church/news/50-years-of-missionary-language-training-readers-share-how-they-learned-their-mission-language?lang=eng" rel="nofollow ugc">https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/church/news/50-years-of-missionary-language-training-readers-share-how-they-learned-their-mission-language?lang=eng</a></p>
<blockquote><p>I served in an every-day two-language mission. In the missionary training center, we learned the Tahitian language for six weeks and then tried to learn French for the next six weeks while trying not to forget everything we were taught in Tahitian. <b>Learning a new language by having instructors teach it to you speaking in this other new language you just learned last week was not easy. </b>Tahitian and French are not alike—Polynesian language vs. Romance language. Once learned, they can together create an extraordinary mélange of words! I used both languages every day of my mission, but it was several months in the field before I was comfortable with any one language, let alone both.</p>
<p>—Justin Ashton of Fort Worth served in the Tahiti Papeete Mission, 2000–2002, Tahitian and French speaking
</p></blockquote>
<p>I&#8217;m trying to imagine either of those languages with a Texas drawl.</p>
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		<title>
		By: huxley		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2024/02/21/open-thread-2-21-24/#comment-2725008</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[huxley]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Feb 2024 01:14:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.thenewneo.com/?p=128917#comment-2725008</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Re: Comprehensible Input

Part of my French experiment this past year was to test the Comprehensible Input hypothesis, that the most efficient means of acquiring a language is via interesting input that one mostly understands.

Not by grammar lessons, not by understanding the language, not by memorizing vocabulary, not by role-playing canned dialogs, not by regular testing.

In Comprehensible Input one reads/listens to whatever one likes with whatever assistance one can muster. Let the brain sort it out. Basically.

It&#039;s worked well enough for me. It&#039;s still a lot of work.

A huge advantage IMO is that one is spending time with the Real Language, which is far more slippery than toy textbook examples.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re: Comprehensible Input</p>
<p>Part of my French experiment this past year was to test the Comprehensible Input hypothesis, that the most efficient means of acquiring a language is via interesting input that one mostly understands.</p>
<p>Not by grammar lessons, not by understanding the language, not by memorizing vocabulary, not by role-playing canned dialogs, not by regular testing.</p>
<p>In Comprehensible Input one reads/listens to whatever one likes with whatever assistance one can muster. Let the brain sort it out. Basically.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s worked well enough for me. It&#8217;s still a lot of work.</p>
<p>A huge advantage IMO is that one is spending time with the Real Language, which is far more slippery than toy textbook examples.</p>
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		<title>
		By: huxley		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2024/02/21/open-thread-2-21-24/#comment-2725005</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[huxley]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Feb 2024 00:52:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.thenewneo.com/?p=128917#comment-2725005</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Re: Language learning

AesopFan:

Sounds great to have a life partner on the journey! 

Harry Potter is a classic goto for English speakers learning another language. Also, Rowling wrote the books so that each successive book would be somewhat more difficult, language-wise, than the previous.

It took me five months to scale the first Harry Potter, a sentence at a time, in French. Arguably it was over my head. But I did learn a lot of French.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re: Language learning</p>
<p>AesopFan:</p>
<p>Sounds great to have a life partner on the journey! </p>
<p>Harry Potter is a classic goto for English speakers learning another language. Also, Rowling wrote the books so that each successive book would be somewhat more difficult, language-wise, than the previous.</p>
<p>It took me five months to scale the first Harry Potter, a sentence at a time, in French. Arguably it was over my head. But I did learn a lot of French.</p>
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		<title>
		By: huxley		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2024/02/21/open-thread-2-21-24/#comment-2725003</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[huxley]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Feb 2024 00:38:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.thenewneo.com/?p=128917#comment-2725003</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[&lt;i&gt;Still, I wonder is this sarcasm?:
“I recommend learning a language if it’s on one’s bucket list. It’s never been easier. “&lt;/i&gt;

Marisa:

Not that I intended. 

I&#039;m a man of enthusiasms. I try not to foist mine upon others, though deep down I don&#039;t understand why everyone isn&#039;t learning French and listening to French music. :-)]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Still, I wonder is this sarcasm?:<br />
“I recommend learning a language if it’s on one’s bucket list. It’s never been easier. “</i></p>
<p>Marisa:</p>
<p>Not that I intended. </p>
<p>I&#8217;m a man of enthusiasms. I try not to foist mine upon others, though deep down I don&#8217;t understand why everyone isn&#8217;t learning French and listening to French music. 🙂</p>
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		<title>
		By: ArtfldgrsShadow		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2024/02/21/open-thread-2-21-24/#comment-2724866</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[ArtfldgrsShadow]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Feb 2024 13:05:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.thenewneo.com/?p=128917#comment-2724866</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[As in Russia, thanks feminism!!! you made women into erasable malcontented bossy nasty vindictive people who no one wants to be with, except cats.

&lt;b&gt;Americans aren&#039;t having enough kids. That&#039;s bad news for the economy — and immigration may be the answer.&lt;/b&gt;
https://www.businessinsider.com/economy-us-birth-rate-declining-population-immigration-china-elon-musk-2024-2

&lt;blockquote&gt;The Census Bureau predicts the number of Americans to peak in 2080, meaning that some of today&#039;s millennials and Gen Zeds might one day find themselves part of a shrinking population.

Economists say there are only two ways to stop that becoming a reality: either convince already-reluctant young Americans to have more kids, &lt;b&gt;or keep immigration high.&lt;/b&gt;
&lt;/blockquote&gt;

over 15 years ago, here, i mentioned how bad this would be
like crossing the event horizon of a black hole, you would feel nothing, except would find you could not go back... kind of like going past the point of no return at niagra falls... it doesnt feel different... but once you cross that line. your going over the falls!!

&lt;blockquote&gt;
The average American woman is having just 1.6 children on average, per World Bank data — well below the figure of 2.1 that demographers say is needed to keep a population stable.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

&lt;b&gt;One factor the world&#039;s largest economy has in its favor is immigration. By 2040, more Americans will die than be born each year, according to Congressional Budget Office projections. However, high immigration levels are expected to keep the population growing, albeit at a slower pace.&lt;/b&gt;]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As in Russia, thanks feminism!!! you made women into erasable malcontented bossy nasty vindictive people who no one wants to be with, except cats.</p>
<p><b>Americans aren&#8217;t having enough kids. That&#8217;s bad news for the economy — and immigration may be the answer.</b><br />
<a href="https://www.businessinsider.com/economy-us-birth-rate-declining-population-immigration-china-elon-musk-2024-2" rel="nofollow ugc">https://www.businessinsider.com/economy-us-birth-rate-declining-population-immigration-china-elon-musk-2024-2</a></p>
<blockquote><p>The Census Bureau predicts the number of Americans to peak in 2080, meaning that some of today&#8217;s millennials and Gen Zeds might one day find themselves part of a shrinking population.</p>
<p>Economists say there are only two ways to stop that becoming a reality: either convince already-reluctant young Americans to have more kids, <b>or keep immigration high.</b>
</p></blockquote>
<p>over 15 years ago, here, i mentioned how bad this would be<br />
like crossing the event horizon of a black hole, you would feel nothing, except would find you could not go back&#8230; kind of like going past the point of no return at niagra falls&#8230; it doesnt feel different&#8230; but once you cross that line. your going over the falls!!</p>
<blockquote><p>
The average American woman is having just 1.6 children on average, per World Bank data — well below the figure of 2.1 that demographers say is needed to keep a population stable.</p></blockquote>
<p><b>One factor the world&#8217;s largest economy has in its favor is immigration. By 2040, more Americans will die than be born each year, according to Congressional Budget Office projections. However, high immigration levels are expected to keep the population growing, albeit at a slower pace.</b></p>
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		<title>
		By: AesopFan		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2024/02/21/open-thread-2-21-24/#comment-2724823</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[AesopFan]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Feb 2024 06:06:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.thenewneo.com/?p=128917#comment-2724823</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[@ huxley &#062; AesopSpouse and I aren&#039;t as disciplined and immersive as you have been, but we&#039;ve been nibbling at learning Welsh for nearly 20 years (!) and are trying to get more traction with it, so we recently purchased a copy of Harry Potter and the Philosopher&#039;s Stone to read to each other while following along in the British original. We read through both the New Testament and the Book of Mormon the same way, but the use of the language has changed a lot since 1611 &#038; 1830 -- not so much between those years though!]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ huxley &gt; AesopSpouse and I aren&#8217;t as disciplined and immersive as you have been, but we&#8217;ve been nibbling at learning Welsh for nearly 20 years (!) and are trying to get more traction with it, so we recently purchased a copy of Harry Potter and the Philosopher&#8217;s Stone to read to each other while following along in the British original. We read through both the New Testament and the Book of Mormon the same way, but the use of the language has changed a lot since 1611 &amp; 1830 &#8212; not so much between those years though!</p>
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		<title>
		By: Marlene		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2024/02/21/open-thread-2-21-24/#comment-2724821</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Marlene]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Feb 2024 06:02:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.thenewneo.com/?p=128917#comment-2724821</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Huxley, I commend you bigly for your discipline to learning French!
Still, I wonder is this sarcasm?:
&quot;I recommend learning a language if it’s on one’s bucket list. It’s never been easier. &quot;]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Huxley, I commend you bigly for your discipline to learning French!<br />
Still, I wonder is this sarcasm?:<br />
&#8220;I recommend learning a language if it’s on one’s bucket list. It’s never been easier. &#8220;</p>
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		<title>
		By: huxley		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2024/02/21/open-thread-2-21-24/#comment-2724818</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[huxley]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Feb 2024 04:37:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.thenewneo.com/?p=128917#comment-2724818</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[FWIW, I&#039;ve been at French in a disciplined way, 4-5 hours/day intense immersion, for over a year now, plus an hour or two per day passive immersion -- listening to French songs and watching movies with French subtitles.

I&#039;m not conversational and I still can&#039;t hear French well, but I have reached lift-off in reading. 

I can now read J.D. Salinger&#039;s excellent short stories with few problems except archaic(!) usages, secondary definitions and various idioms. Plus the translator didn&#039;t bother to understand American baseball and, among other things, described a left fielder as playing &quot;left wing&quot; as in soccer.

Good enough. I&#039;ve been pedal to the metal long enough. I&#039;ve got a ton of my favorite English novels cued up in French. That&#039;s what I&#039;ll be doing for the next three months.

Stephen Krashen, my linguist guru, mentions a study about which language students continue advancing after schooling ends -- those who reached the level of reading for pleasure in their target language.

I will get to conversation. But for now I want to relax and enjoy where I am and cement those gains. Read for pleasure. I&#039;m also curious where I will be in three months with a relaxed input-based approach.

Learning a language is a big project. I clearly underestimated it. But, like most things, it does yield to persistent effort.

It&#039;s also one of the great things I&#039;ve done with my life. I recommend learning a language if it&#039;s on one&#039;s bucket list. It&#039;s never been easier.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>FWIW, I&#8217;ve been at French in a disciplined way, 4-5 hours/day intense immersion, for over a year now, plus an hour or two per day passive immersion &#8212; listening to French songs and watching movies with French subtitles.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not conversational and I still can&#8217;t hear French well, but I have reached lift-off in reading. </p>
<p>I can now read J.D. Salinger&#8217;s excellent short stories with few problems except archaic(!) usages, secondary definitions and various idioms. Plus the translator didn&#8217;t bother to understand American baseball and, among other things, described a left fielder as playing &#8220;left wing&#8221; as in soccer.</p>
<p>Good enough. I&#8217;ve been pedal to the metal long enough. I&#8217;ve got a ton of my favorite English novels cued up in French. That&#8217;s what I&#8217;ll be doing for the next three months.</p>
<p>Stephen Krashen, my linguist guru, mentions a study about which language students continue advancing after schooling ends &#8212; those who reached the level of reading for pleasure in their target language.</p>
<p>I will get to conversation. But for now I want to relax and enjoy where I am and cement those gains. Read for pleasure. I&#8217;m also curious where I will be in three months with a relaxed input-based approach.</p>
<p>Learning a language is a big project. I clearly underestimated it. But, like most things, it does yield to persistent effort.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s also one of the great things I&#8217;ve done with my life. I recommend learning a language if it&#8217;s on one&#8217;s bucket list. It&#8217;s never been easier.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Chases Eagles		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2024/02/21/open-thread-2-21-24/#comment-2724779</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Chases Eagles]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Feb 2024 00:12:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.thenewneo.com/?p=128917#comment-2724779</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[A gathering of eagles … scaring the hell out of everything else with wings.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9K2S1pRpCk]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A gathering of eagles … scaring the hell out of everything else with wings.<br />
<a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9K2S1pRpCk" rel="nofollow ugc">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9K2S1pRpCk</a></p>
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		<title>
		By: Boobah		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2024/02/21/open-thread-2-21-24/#comment-2724774</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Boobah]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Feb 2024 23:31:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.thenewneo.com/?p=128917#comment-2724774</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[To buy a stingray you have to sign an NDA that requires you to inform the FBI if anyone requests information about them so that the FBI can deal it.

I&#039;m not sure that there&#039;s much more that needs to be said about them.  They enable secret, unconstitutional searches that you&#039;ll probably never find out about even if they&#039;re used against you.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To buy a stingray you have to sign an NDA that requires you to inform the FBI if anyone requests information about them so that the FBI can deal it.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not sure that there&#8217;s much more that needs to be said about them.  They enable secret, unconstitutional searches that you&#8217;ll probably never find out about even if they&#8217;re used against you.</p>
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