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	Comments on: The hostages present a Solomonic dilemma: why say &#8220;Bring them home&#8221;?	</title>
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	<link>https://thenewneo.com/2024/01/19/the-hostages-present-a-solomaic-dilemma-why-say-bring-them-home/</link>
	<description>A blog about political change, among other things</description>
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		<title>
		By: R.C.		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2024/01/19/the-hostages-present-a-solomaic-dilemma-why-say-bring-them-home/#comment-2719204</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[R.C.]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Jan 2024 06:46:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.thenewneo.com/?p=131609#comment-2719204</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I&#039;m happy, of course, that some of the hostages were released. Happy for them and their families.

But whatever was paid to make that happen was too high a price.

We must always take into account what such a response teaches the world of terrorism about the success-rate of hostage-taking as a strategy. Every time it works, you should assume it will result in ten more identical or escalating uses of the same tactic.

Let us say that Israel traded one jailed terrorist for one hostage. Sounds like a fair deal?

No. No, it wasn&#039;t, because that wasn&#039;t the deal at all. The real deal was: &quot;You give us our captured comrade, and we give you back the hostage now, and ten more kidnappings later.&quot;

(That hypothetical deal doesn&#039;t look so sweet once all the terms are spelled out. And of course the real deals made by Israel are usually far worse than 1-for-1 trades.)

I have told my family -- sure, sure, it&#039;s easy for me to say because it&#039;s vanishingly unlikely the situation would ever arise, but still, I told them -- that, in the event that I am ever taken hostage in a situation like that, my dearest and firmly hoped-for wish is to have the spot where I am being held hit with the fiercest possible airstrike. I would never want the terror felt, or the abuse endured, by the next ten hostages to be on MY conscience, because someone made the mistake of encouraging kidnappings on my account.

And anyway, the airstrike would probably take out at least a few of the kidnappers. Killing one terrorist is a high-value win, due to all the saved lives resulting from cutting short that terrorist&#039;s future career. The death of each terrorist -- and thus the saving of those other innocent lives -- far outweighs the less-significant collateral damage of, well, me.

Again, easy for me to say, given the unlikelihood of such a scenario. But I do think it is the right call, as a matter of moral reasoning.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m happy, of course, that some of the hostages were released. Happy for them and their families.</p>
<p>But whatever was paid to make that happen was too high a price.</p>
<p>We must always take into account what such a response teaches the world of terrorism about the success-rate of hostage-taking as a strategy. Every time it works, you should assume it will result in ten more identical or escalating uses of the same tactic.</p>
<p>Let us say that Israel traded one jailed terrorist for one hostage. Sounds like a fair deal?</p>
<p>No. No, it wasn&#8217;t, because that wasn&#8217;t the deal at all. The real deal was: &#8220;You give us our captured comrade, and we give you back the hostage now, and ten more kidnappings later.&#8221;</p>
<p>(That hypothetical deal doesn&#8217;t look so sweet once all the terms are spelled out. And of course the real deals made by Israel are usually far worse than 1-for-1 trades.)</p>
<p>I have told my family &#8212; sure, sure, it&#8217;s easy for me to say because it&#8217;s vanishingly unlikely the situation would ever arise, but still, I told them &#8212; that, in the event that I am ever taken hostage in a situation like that, my dearest and firmly hoped-for wish is to have the spot where I am being held hit with the fiercest possible airstrike. I would never want the terror felt, or the abuse endured, by the next ten hostages to be on MY conscience, because someone made the mistake of encouraging kidnappings on my account.</p>
<p>And anyway, the airstrike would probably take out at least a few of the kidnappers. Killing one terrorist is a high-value win, due to all the saved lives resulting from cutting short that terrorist&#8217;s future career. The death of each terrorist &#8212; and thus the saving of those other innocent lives &#8212; far outweighs the less-significant collateral damage of, well, me.</p>
<p>Again, easy for me to say, given the unlikelihood of such a scenario. But I do think it is the right call, as a matter of moral reasoning.</p>
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		<title>
		By: IrishOtter49		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2024/01/19/the-hostages-present-a-solomaic-dilemma-why-say-bring-them-home/#comment-2719191</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[IrishOtter49]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Jan 2024 03:15:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.thenewneo.com/?p=131609#comment-2719191</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[miguel:

The Bataan campaign was not primarily a tank battle. The clash of tanks to which I referred was a relatively brief (albeit violent and highly kinetic) engagement in northern Bataan that took place as Fil-American army was conducting its strategic withdrawal from north and south Luzon into the Bataan peninsula. The American tanks units were basically fighting a rear-guard action to delay the Japanese and buy time and breathing room for the Fil-American forces to dig in on Bataan.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>miguel:</p>
<p>The Bataan campaign was not primarily a tank battle. The clash of tanks to which I referred was a relatively brief (albeit violent and highly kinetic) engagement in northern Bataan that took place as Fil-American army was conducting its strategic withdrawal from north and south Luzon into the Bataan peninsula. The American tanks units were basically fighting a rear-guard action to delay the Japanese and buy time and breathing room for the Fil-American forces to dig in on Bataan.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Hubert		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2024/01/19/the-hostages-present-a-solomaic-dilemma-why-say-bring-them-home/#comment-2719178</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Hubert]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Jan 2024 01:20:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.thenewneo.com/?p=131609#comment-2719178</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Neo: agreed. I didn&#039;t mean to suggest otherwise. My point was that Israel, in its existential war against Hamas, may have to change its traditional policy of getting POWs and hostages (or their remains) back at almost any price. I used the case of American POWs in the Pacific as an example.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Neo: agreed. I didn&#8217;t mean to suggest otherwise. My point was that Israel, in its existential war against Hamas, may have to change its traditional policy of getting POWs and hostages (or their remains) back at almost any price. I used the case of American POWs in the Pacific as an example.</p>
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		<title>
		By: miguel cervantes		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2024/01/19/the-hostages-present-a-solomaic-dilemma-why-say-bring-them-home/#comment-2719172</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[miguel cervantes]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Jan 2024 00:38:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.thenewneo.com/?p=131609#comment-2719172</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[yes I was looking up the Husseini clan, and how back their autonomy went back to 1843 when they had tangled with the Ottomans, Haj Amin may have gotten some of this sentiment from his father, who was not keen on Jews

I didn&#039;t know that Bataan had been primarily a tank battle, the Imperial Army and Navy had some talented officers, like Yamamoto and Yamashita they were the more professional ones and many who were selected for their ideological zeal]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>yes I was looking up the Husseini clan, and how back their autonomy went back to 1843 when they had tangled with the Ottomans, Haj Amin may have gotten some of this sentiment from his father, who was not keen on Jews</p>
<p>I didn&#8217;t know that Bataan had been primarily a tank battle, the Imperial Army and Navy had some talented officers, like Yamamoto and Yamashita they were the more professional ones and many who were selected for their ideological zeal</p>
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		<title>
		By: Marc		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2024/01/19/the-hostages-present-a-solomaic-dilemma-why-say-bring-them-home/#comment-2719170</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Marc]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Jan 2024 00:29:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.thenewneo.com/?p=131609#comment-2719170</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[which came first - The Sand Pebbles ?  or The Last Mohican ? didn&#039;t TLM contain a similar scene, killing a rival about to be burned at the stake ?]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>which came first &#8211; The Sand Pebbles ?  or The Last Mohican ? didn&#8217;t TLM contain a similar scene, killing a rival about to be burned at the stake ?</p>
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		<title>
		By: IrishOtter49		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2024/01/19/the-hostages-present-a-solomaic-dilemma-why-say-bring-them-home/#comment-2719153</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[IrishOtter49]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Jan 2024 22:42:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.thenewneo.com/?p=131609#comment-2719153</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Bataan was indeed the venue of America&#039;s first tank vs. tank clash. M3 Stuart light tanks and M3 tank destroyer half-tracks equipped with 75mm guns vs. Japanese Type 89 mediums. Most of the fellows I interviewed took part in that encounter, and they told me all about it. Fascinating, and exciting. I&#039;ve got all their stories on tape. Say, I oughta re-start that project . . .]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bataan was indeed the venue of America&#8217;s first tank vs. tank clash. M3 Stuart light tanks and M3 tank destroyer half-tracks equipped with 75mm guns vs. Japanese Type 89 mediums. Most of the fellows I interviewed took part in that encounter, and they told me all about it. Fascinating, and exciting. I&#8217;ve got all their stories on tape. Say, I oughta re-start that project . . .</p>
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		<title>
		By: neo		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2024/01/19/the-hostages-present-a-solomaic-dilemma-why-say-bring-them-home/#comment-2719149</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[neo]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Jan 2024 22:17:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.thenewneo.com/?p=131609#comment-2719149</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Hubert:

I certainly didn&#039;t mean for a moment to suggest that Israel doesn&#039;t care about its soldier-hostages. It does, and in the past was willing to give up the sun, moon, and stars to get them back.  But the hostages taken on  October 7 nevertheless upped the ante considerably.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hubert:</p>
<p>I certainly didn&#8217;t mean for a moment to suggest that Israel doesn&#8217;t care about its soldier-hostages. It does, and in the past was willing to give up the sun, moon, and stars to get them back.  But the hostages taken on  October 7 nevertheless upped the ante considerably.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Hubert		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2024/01/19/the-hostages-present-a-solomaic-dilemma-why-say-bring-them-home/#comment-2719147</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Hubert]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Jan 2024 22:14:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.thenewneo.com/?p=131609#comment-2719147</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Stepped Reckoning: Thank you! Very kind of you to look.

Otter: good point about the Japanese way of war. Furthermore, those transports weren&#039;t just carrying Allied POWs. They were also carrying Japanese soldiers, munitions, and other war materiel. They were legitimate targets. The question is, Would we have attacked them if we had known for certain that POWs were also on board? From what I have read about the Pacific war--a &quot;war without mercy&quot; in historian John Dower&#039;s words--and what I was told by my father and other veterans of that theater, I think we would have. You say not. You may be right.

Thanks for the background on your Bataan book and your conversations with Iris Chang. I was working at UIUC when her book on Nanking was published. As a hometown girl, she and it got a lot of attention in the local media. That was probably unavoidable, but it may not have been a good thing. I&#039;m sure that the subject matter of her books--and her unsuccessful campaign to get the Japanese government to acknowledge the Imperial Japanese Army&#039;s atrocities--contributed to her depression. It sounds like there were other, additional factors that pushed her to suicide.

I understand that Bataan was the site of the U.S. Army&#039;s first tank battle of WWII. Not the place most people would think of.

Neo: yes, many of the Israeli hostages from October 7 are/were civilians--women, children, and old people. Not military men and not POWs. But the Israelis have historically been extremely reluctant to sacrifice POWs as well. My point was that they may have to run that risk if they want to destroy Hamas and the Hamas leadership.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Stepped Reckoning: Thank you! Very kind of you to look.</p>
<p>Otter: good point about the Japanese way of war. Furthermore, those transports weren&#8217;t just carrying Allied POWs. They were also carrying Japanese soldiers, munitions, and other war materiel. They were legitimate targets. The question is, Would we have attacked them if we had known for certain that POWs were also on board? From what I have read about the Pacific war&#8211;a &#8220;war without mercy&#8221; in historian John Dower&#8217;s words&#8211;and what I was told by my father and other veterans of that theater, I think we would have. You say not. You may be right.</p>
<p>Thanks for the background on your Bataan book and your conversations with Iris Chang. I was working at UIUC when her book on Nanking was published. As a hometown girl, she and it got a lot of attention in the local media. That was probably unavoidable, but it may not have been a good thing. I&#8217;m sure that the subject matter of her books&#8211;and her unsuccessful campaign to get the Japanese government to acknowledge the Imperial Japanese Army&#8217;s atrocities&#8211;contributed to her depression. It sounds like there were other, additional factors that pushed her to suicide.</p>
<p>I understand that Bataan was the site of the U.S. Army&#8217;s first tank battle of WWII. Not the place most people would think of.</p>
<p>Neo: yes, many of the Israeli hostages from October 7 are/were civilians&#8211;women, children, and old people. Not military men and not POWs. But the Israelis have historically been extremely reluctant to sacrifice POWs as well. My point was that they may have to run that risk if they want to destroy Hamas and the Hamas leadership.</p>
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		<title>
		By: neo		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2024/01/19/the-hostages-present-a-solomaic-dilemma-why-say-bring-them-home/#comment-2719145</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[neo]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Jan 2024 21:56:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.thenewneo.com/?p=131609#comment-2719145</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Scott Feil:

I&#039;ll skip over the ethical questions with that idea and just get to the practical problems that made it different from the Soviet and Lebanon in the 80s.  Hamas and company are far less interested than the kidnappers in 1980s Lebanon were in whether their &lt;i&gt;own&lt;/i&gt; families live or die.  Whether that&#039;s true or whether it&#039;s just their repeated rhetoric I&#039;m not sure; maybe not true although they couldn&#039;t care less about the Palestinians in general.  But at any rate I have read that the Hamas jihadis&#039; families are down in the tunnels with them, for protection.  So either they don&#039;t much care, or they have anticipated the problem and protected their families at least to a certain extent.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Scott Feil:</p>
<p>I&#8217;ll skip over the ethical questions with that idea and just get to the practical problems that made it different from the Soviet and Lebanon in the 80s.  Hamas and company are far less interested than the kidnappers in 1980s Lebanon were in whether their <i>own</i> families live or die.  Whether that&#8217;s true or whether it&#8217;s just their repeated rhetoric I&#8217;m not sure; maybe not true although they couldn&#8217;t care less about the Palestinians in general.  But at any rate I have read that the Hamas jihadis&#8217; families are down in the tunnels with them, for protection.  So either they don&#8217;t much care, or they have anticipated the problem and protected their families at least to a certain extent.</p>
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		<title>
		By: FOAF		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2024/01/19/the-hostages-present-a-solomaic-dilemma-why-say-bring-them-home/#comment-2719144</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[FOAF]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Jan 2024 21:54:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.thenewneo.com/?p=131609#comment-2719144</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[miguel, I was not aware that the infamous mufti was preceded by his brother.  I looked it up (ok Wikipedia) and apparently the brother Kamil was the exact opposite - cooperative not only with the British but even with the Jews.  It is tragic to think how the history of the area might have been altered for the better had he survived to be the leader of the Palestinians.  Though he may have become subject to pressure to follow his brother&#039;s more intransigent stance.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>miguel, I was not aware that the infamous mufti was preceded by his brother.  I looked it up (ok Wikipedia) and apparently the brother Kamil was the exact opposite &#8211; cooperative not only with the British but even with the Jews.  It is tragic to think how the history of the area might have been altered for the better had he survived to be the leader of the Palestinians.  Though he may have become subject to pressure to follow his brother&#8217;s more intransigent stance.</p>
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