<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
	
	>
<channel>
	<title>
	Comments on: Open thread 8/23/23	</title>
	<atom:link href="https://thenewneo.com/2023/08/23/open-thread-8-23-23/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>https://thenewneo.com/2023/08/23/open-thread-8-23-23/</link>
	<description>A blog about political change, among other things</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Thu, 24 Aug 2023 17:58:45 +0000</lastBuildDate>
	<sy:updatePeriod>
	hourly	</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>
	1	</sy:updateFrequency>
	<generator>https://wordpress.org/?v=7.0</generator>
	<item>
		<title>
		By: TJ		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2023/08/23/open-thread-8-23-23/#comment-2695524</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[TJ]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Aug 2023 17:58:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.thenewneo.com/?p=128161#comment-2695524</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Molly Brown’s daughter was amused! Indeed, it’s a forever quote from quotable Voltaire:

Ce corps qui s&#039;appelait et qui s&#039;appelle encore le saint empire romain n&#039;était en aucune manière ni saint, ni romain, ni empire.

“This body which called itself and which still calls itself the Holy Roman Empire was in no way holy, nor Roman, nor an empire.”
— Wikiquote

A European history teacher spends four paragraphs exposing the genuine truth of Voltaire’s pithiness.
https://www.enotes.com/homework-help/sentence-voltaire-state-that-holy-roman-empire-465633

An Oxford historian spends over half a thousand pages to detail the one-thousand year history of the Empire too few know: Peter Wilson&#039;s “The Holy Roman Empire: A Thousand Years of Europe&#039;s History”
REVIEW here
https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/central-european-history/article/an-empire-for-our-times-a-discussion-of-peter-wilsons-the-holy-roman-empire-a-thousand-years-of-europes-history/AF57BD06F7F31E78A622F4BB25FC1CE1

OPENING LINES:
“The two centuries since its dissolution in 1806, the Holy Roman Empire has usually been viewed as an antiquated relic of the medieval past, a dysfunctional polity that hindered Germany&#039;s development into a modern, liberal nation-state. In the wake of its demise, a chorus of famous intellectuals and statesmen—including Voltaire, James Madison, Johann Wolfgang von Goethe, Leopold von Ranke, and Heinrich von Treitschke—derided the Empire as a ‘monstrosity’ hampered by outmoded institutions and backward policies.”

The review explains that Peter Wilson’s mission is to reverse this long settled judgement almost entirely. And in fact to argue that post-war Europe’s economic and later political integration in the European Union — for good or bad —  SURPRISE! fallows the lines of precedent set by the Holy Roman Empire.

It’s a tome from 7 years ago in my reading que. From other things I’ve read in the last two decades, I believe that I’ll find Wilson’s estimate more correct — even though, I too, grew up with Voltaire’s excellent and mirthful version of the past.

Fun stuff.

PS huxley. I am amused. Maybe a search on the frog will work?]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Molly Brown’s daughter was amused! Indeed, it’s a forever quote from quotable Voltaire:</p>
<p>Ce corps qui s&#8217;appelait et qui s&#8217;appelle encore le saint empire romain n&#8217;était en aucune manière ni saint, ni romain, ni empire.</p>
<p>“This body which called itself and which still calls itself the Holy Roman Empire was in no way holy, nor Roman, nor an empire.”<br />
— Wikiquote</p>
<p>A European history teacher spends four paragraphs exposing the genuine truth of Voltaire’s pithiness.<br />
<a href="https://www.enotes.com/homework-help/sentence-voltaire-state-that-holy-roman-empire-465633" rel="nofollow ugc">https://www.enotes.com/homework-help/sentence-voltaire-state-that-holy-roman-empire-465633</a></p>
<p>An Oxford historian spends over half a thousand pages to detail the one-thousand year history of the Empire too few know: Peter Wilson&#8217;s “The Holy Roman Empire: A Thousand Years of Europe&#8217;s History”<br />
REVIEW here<br />
<a href="https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/central-european-history/article/an-empire-for-our-times-a-discussion-of-peter-wilsons-the-holy-roman-empire-a-thousand-years-of-europes-history/AF57BD06F7F31E78A622F4BB25FC1CE1" rel="nofollow ugc">https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/central-european-history/article/an-empire-for-our-times-a-discussion-of-peter-wilsons-the-holy-roman-empire-a-thousand-years-of-europes-history/AF57BD06F7F31E78A622F4BB25FC1CE1</a></p>
<p>OPENING LINES:<br />
“The two centuries since its dissolution in 1806, the Holy Roman Empire has usually been viewed as an antiquated relic of the medieval past, a dysfunctional polity that hindered Germany&#8217;s development into a modern, liberal nation-state. In the wake of its demise, a chorus of famous intellectuals and statesmen—including Voltaire, James Madison, Johann Wolfgang von Goethe, Leopold von Ranke, and Heinrich von Treitschke—derided the Empire as a ‘monstrosity’ hampered by outmoded institutions and backward policies.”</p>
<p>The review explains that Peter Wilson’s mission is to reverse this long settled judgement almost entirely. And in fact to argue that post-war Europe’s economic and later political integration in the European Union — for good or bad —  SURPRISE! fallows the lines of precedent set by the Holy Roman Empire.</p>
<p>It’s a tome from 7 years ago in my reading que. From other things I’ve read in the last two decades, I believe that I’ll find Wilson’s estimate more correct — even though, I too, grew up with Voltaire’s excellent and mirthful version of the past.</p>
<p>Fun stuff.</p>
<p>PS huxley. I am amused. Maybe a search on the frog will work?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
		
			</item>
		<item>
		<title>
		By: huxley		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2023/08/23/open-thread-8-23-23/#comment-2695494</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[huxley]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Aug 2023 15:04:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.thenewneo.com/?p=128161#comment-2695494</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Re: The Defenestration of Prague

TJ:

Long ago I read an article of that title, which was accompanied by a clever drawing of a giant frog the size of a building with many windows. I&#039;m sure its explanation was in line with your summary.

Unfortunately all my brain remembered was the bright shiny object, i.e. the giant frog. Hmm...so defenestration has something to do with frogs.

I got straightened out post-9-11, when I discovered Muslims were defenestrating incautious scholars investigating heretical theories of Islam&#039;s origin.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re: The Defenestration of Prague</p>
<p>TJ:</p>
<p>Long ago I read an article of that title, which was accompanied by a clever drawing of a giant frog the size of a building with many windows. I&#8217;m sure its explanation was in line with your summary.</p>
<p>Unfortunately all my brain remembered was the bright shiny object, i.e. the giant frog. Hmm&#8230;so defenestration has something to do with frogs.</p>
<p>I got straightened out post-9-11, when I discovered Muslims were defenestrating incautious scholars investigating heretical theories of Islam&#8217;s origin.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
		
			</item>
		<item>
		<title>
		By: Snow on Pine		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2023/08/23/open-thread-8-23-23/#comment-2695479</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Snow on Pine]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Aug 2023 13:39:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.thenewneo.com/?p=128161#comment-2695479</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[You would think that Prighozhin  would have been wary enough not to take this form of travel or, at least, to have set up a number of different reservations to make it hard to determine which flight he was actually on.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You would think that Prighozhin  would have been wary enough not to take this form of travel or, at least, to have set up a number of different reservations to make it hard to determine which flight he was actually on.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
		
			</item>
		<item>
		<title>
		By: Molly Brown		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2023/08/23/open-thread-8-23-23/#comment-2695464</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Molly Brown]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Aug 2023 08:05:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.thenewneo.com/?p=128161#comment-2695464</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[TJ,
When the Prague incident was covered in daughter&#039;s AP Euro History course she thought it was quite funny that the Holy Roman Empire was - as she put it - neither 
&#039;Holy&#039; nor &#039;Roman&#039;!]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>TJ,<br />
When the Prague incident was covered in daughter&#8217;s AP Euro History course she thought it was quite funny that the Holy Roman Empire was &#8211; as she put it &#8211; neither<br />
&#8216;Holy&#8217; nor &#8216;Roman&#8217;!</p>
]]></content:encoded>
		
			</item>
		<item>
		<title>
		By: TJ		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2023/08/23/open-thread-8-23-23/#comment-2695461</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[TJ]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Aug 2023 05:46:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.thenewneo.com/?p=128161#comment-2695461</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[“In the Middle Ages and early modern times, defenestration was not uncommon—the act carried elements of lynching and mob violence in the form of murder committed together.” — Wiki as ABOVE]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>“In the Middle Ages and early modern times, defenestration was not uncommon—the act carried elements of lynching and mob violence in the form of murder committed together.” — Wiki as ABOVE</p>
]]></content:encoded>
		
			</item>
		<item>
		<title>
		By: TJ		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2023/08/23/open-thread-8-23-23/#comment-2695455</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[TJ]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Aug 2023 05:07:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.thenewneo.com/?p=128161#comment-2695455</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[CORRECTION The plural use is preferred by the historically well-read — similar acts, same city! SIMILAR symbolism.) [All granted, despite my humble work as a roofer myself!]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>CORRECTION The plural use is preferred by the historically well-read — similar acts, same city! SIMILAR symbolism.) [All granted, despite my humble work as a roofer myself!]</p>
]]></content:encoded>
		
			</item>
		<item>
		<title>
		By: TJ		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2023/08/23/open-thread-8-23-23/#comment-2695453</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[TJ]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Aug 2023 04:57:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.thenewneo.com/?p=128161#comment-2695453</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[huxley is on to something of genuine importance. He writes “For a long time I assumed defenestration was some deviant practice that I didn’t want to know about.
Then I learned that it meant being thrown out of a window. It still seemed like a strange, surprisingly specific word.

It is. And one ought to have learned it from Western Civ, or else a course on Modern Europe (ie, since the Middle Ages). And the reason it was important and continues to be important is because the singular event of 1618 (neglecting previous 15thC defenestrations) termed “THE defenestration of Prague” concerns the Early Modern struggle through the Wars of Religion to arrive at a workable “freedom of conscience” regarding religious belief.

It is precisely this issue that will be argued and fought over from now until at least the next Presidential election.

What happened was simple, in the context of the Protestant Revolt, sparked by Martin Luther at Worms just over 500 years ago. 

The Aristocratic leaders of Protestant Bavaria had gained a Bill of Majesty to sanction Protestant version of Christianity in that land. They met with Catholic Habsburg leaders, however, imbued with the New fervour from Rome, the Counter-Reformation.

And because this meeting occurred in the Holy Roman Empire (mostly just the Habsburg Empire) they met in Prague, fairly central for both sides.

After both sides had made statements, the Catholic side was accused of wishing to void the Bill of Majesty and thus Protestantism in Baveria! Thereupon, three Catholic leaders were forcibly tossed from a third floor window to the ground!

Surprisingly, the three survived! Catholics subsequently ascribed their luck to God’s beneficent Will. Later, Protestants returned the favor saying that they were saved by a dung heap! (Albeit, without facts supporting the…um, smear.

Now, does this sound at all like today’s politics? It does, indeed.

After this, Protestant forces stirred, and Catholic forces for war gathered. This event resulted in the Thirty Years War.

The Biblical significance (pace roofers in huxley’s contrasting example) comes from the story of Jezebel and her fall from high to low, and thus a Fall from Grace. The parallels of the Righteous humiliating of the sinner in Christendom and the Koranic practice of beheading Infidels throat gutting or beheading, should be noticed. 

Therefore, the defenestration of Prague’s deep religious and symbolic significance. The assault was intended as a deeper, spiritual insult. And this is a meaning now lost in our Modern Age of Ignorance, sadly.

Today, we take for granted our freedom of conscience and belief. Yet this is precisely what’s at stake in Georgia’s Fulton County assault on Team Trump. If we cannot agree to disagree about election outcomes, then we’re back to the defenestration of rival leaders.

There’s nothing new under the Sun.

A SHORT HISTORY of the Defenestration of Prague
https://allthatsinteresting.com/defenestration

Wikipedia’s longer and turgid “Defenestrations of Prague.”
(The plural use is preferred by the historically well-read — similar acts, same city!) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defenestrations_of_Prague]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>huxley is on to something of genuine importance. He writes “For a long time I assumed defenestration was some deviant practice that I didn’t want to know about.<br />
Then I learned that it meant being thrown out of a window. It still seemed like a strange, surprisingly specific word.</p>
<p>It is. And one ought to have learned it from Western Civ, or else a course on Modern Europe (ie, since the Middle Ages). And the reason it was important and continues to be important is because the singular event of 1618 (neglecting previous 15thC defenestrations) termed “THE defenestration of Prague” concerns the Early Modern struggle through the Wars of Religion to arrive at a workable “freedom of conscience” regarding religious belief.</p>
<p>It is precisely this issue that will be argued and fought over from now until at least the next Presidential election.</p>
<p>What happened was simple, in the context of the Protestant Revolt, sparked by Martin Luther at Worms just over 500 years ago. </p>
<p>The Aristocratic leaders of Protestant Bavaria had gained a Bill of Majesty to sanction Protestant version of Christianity in that land. They met with Catholic Habsburg leaders, however, imbued with the New fervour from Rome, the Counter-Reformation.</p>
<p>And because this meeting occurred in the Holy Roman Empire (mostly just the Habsburg Empire) they met in Prague, fairly central for both sides.</p>
<p>After both sides had made statements, the Catholic side was accused of wishing to void the Bill of Majesty and thus Protestantism in Baveria! Thereupon, three Catholic leaders were forcibly tossed from a third floor window to the ground!</p>
<p>Surprisingly, the three survived! Catholics subsequently ascribed their luck to God’s beneficent Will. Later, Protestants returned the favor saying that they were saved by a dung heap! (Albeit, without facts supporting the…um, smear.</p>
<p>Now, does this sound at all like today’s politics? It does, indeed.</p>
<p>After this, Protestant forces stirred, and Catholic forces for war gathered. This event resulted in the Thirty Years War.</p>
<p>The Biblical significance (pace roofers in huxley’s contrasting example) comes from the story of Jezebel and her fall from high to low, and thus a Fall from Grace. The parallels of the Righteous humiliating of the sinner in Christendom and the Koranic practice of beheading Infidels throat gutting or beheading, should be noticed. </p>
<p>Therefore, the defenestration of Prague’s deep religious and symbolic significance. The assault was intended as a deeper, spiritual insult. And this is a meaning now lost in our Modern Age of Ignorance, sadly.</p>
<p>Today, we take for granted our freedom of conscience and belief. Yet this is precisely what’s at stake in Georgia’s Fulton County assault on Team Trump. If we cannot agree to disagree about election outcomes, then we’re back to the defenestration of rival leaders.</p>
<p>There’s nothing new under the Sun.</p>
<p>A SHORT HISTORY of the Defenestration of Prague<br />
<a href="https://allthatsinteresting.com/defenestration" rel="nofollow ugc">https://allthatsinteresting.com/defenestration</a></p>
<p>Wikipedia’s longer and turgid “Defenestrations of Prague.”<br />
(The plural use is preferred by the historically well-read — similar acts, same city!) <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defenestrations_of_Prague" rel="nofollow ugc">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defenestrations_of_Prague</a></p>
]]></content:encoded>
		
			</item>
		<item>
		<title>
		By: om		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2023/08/23/open-thread-8-23-23/#comment-2695448</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[om]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Aug 2023 03:55:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.thenewneo.com/?p=128161#comment-2695448</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Snow on Pine:

You spend a lot of effort proselytizing,  Could be worse, could be the flat earth, Oh well,]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Snow on Pine:</p>
<p>You spend a lot of effort proselytizing,  Could be worse, could be the flat earth, Oh well,</p>
]]></content:encoded>
		
			</item>
		<item>
		<title>
		By: huxley		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2023/08/23/open-thread-8-23-23/#comment-2695446</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[huxley]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Aug 2023 03:31:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.thenewneo.com/?p=128161#comment-2695446</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[BTW, the little hat over the French &quot;ê&quot; often means that the older spelling was &quot;es&quot;, which is surprisingly handy for figuring out French-English cognates.

Thus, &lt;i&gt;fenêtre&lt;/i&gt; --&#062; &lt;i&gt;fenestre&lt;/i&gt; --&#062; &lt;i&gt;défenestrer&lt;/i&gt; --&#062; &lt;i&gt;defenestrate&lt;/i&gt;

Thank god, I&#039;m learning French and not some distant language.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>BTW, the little hat over the French &#8220;ê&#8221; often means that the older spelling was &#8220;es&#8221;, which is surprisingly handy for figuring out French-English cognates.</p>
<p>Thus, <i>fenêtre</i> &#8211;&gt; <i>fenestre</i> &#8211;&gt; <i>défenestrer</i> &#8211;&gt; <i>defenestrate</i></p>
<p>Thank god, I&#8217;m learning French and not some distant language.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
		
			</item>
		<item>
		<title>
		By: huxley		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2023/08/23/open-thread-8-23-23/#comment-2695445</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[huxley]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Aug 2023 03:15:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.thenewneo.com/?p=128161#comment-2695445</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[&lt;i&gt;Dana Loesch said his plane fell out of a window.&lt;/i&gt;

chazzard: 

For a long time I assumed defenestration was some deviant practice that I didn&#039;t want to know about.

Then I learned that it meant being thrown out of a window. It still seemed like a strange, surprisingly specific word. I don&#039;t think there is a word for being thrown off, say, a roof.

Now that I knows some French, I can spot &lt;i&gt;fenêtre&lt;/i&gt; for &lt;i&gt;window&lt;/i&gt; right  off the bat, and voilà, the French have a verb: &lt;i&gt;défenestrer&lt;/i&gt;.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Dana Loesch said his plane fell out of a window.</i></p>
<p>chazzard: </p>
<p>For a long time I assumed defenestration was some deviant practice that I didn&#8217;t want to know about.</p>
<p>Then I learned that it meant being thrown out of a window. It still seemed like a strange, surprisingly specific word. I don&#8217;t think there is a word for being thrown off, say, a roof.</p>
<p>Now that I knows some French, I can spot <i>fenêtre</i> for <i>window</i> right  off the bat, and voilà, the French have a verb: <i>défenestrer</i>.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
		
			</item>
	</channel>
</rss>
