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	Comments on: Open thread 6/27/23	</title>
	<atom:link href="https://thenewneo.com/2023/06/27/open-thread-6-27-23/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>https://thenewneo.com/2023/06/27/open-thread-6-27-23/</link>
	<description>A blog about political change, among other things</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Wed, 28 Jun 2023 19:11:14 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>
		By: Snow on Pine		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2023/06/27/open-thread-6-27-23/#comment-2686465</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Snow on Pine]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Jun 2023 19:11:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.thenewneo.com/?p=126829#comment-2686465</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[According to my research, I have ancestors who fought for both the Confederacy and for the Union, and one who actually sold and held slaves.

But all that took place around 160 plus years ago, and was certainly not only out of my control but of my ken, until I did a lot of genealogical research.

People and events that my family retained absolutely no knowledge of.

So, should I have to pay reparations?

I’ve found half a dozen ancestors who fought in the Revolution—thankfully on the American side.  

After the Revolution some applied for pensions, some applied for land bounties or tax remissions as compensation for their service, some did not.

Should that mean that I should merit, should inherit some sort of payment that was owed them and that they didn’t apply for or collect—with 250 or so years of compounded interest added?]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>According to my research, I have ancestors who fought for both the Confederacy and for the Union, and one who actually sold and held slaves.</p>
<p>But all that took place around 160 plus years ago, and was certainly not only out of my control but of my ken, until I did a lot of genealogical research.</p>
<p>People and events that my family retained absolutely no knowledge of.</p>
<p>So, should I have to pay reparations?</p>
<p>I’ve found half a dozen ancestors who fought in the Revolution—thankfully on the American side.  </p>
<p>After the Revolution some applied for pensions, some applied for land bounties or tax remissions as compensation for their service, some did not.</p>
<p>Should that mean that I should merit, should inherit some sort of payment that was owed them and that they didn’t apply for or collect—with 250 or so years of compounded interest added?</p>
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		<title>
		By: Kate		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2023/06/27/open-thread-6-27-23/#comment-2686423</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Kate]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Jun 2023 13:58:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.thenewneo.com/?p=126829#comment-2686423</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[True, miguel.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>True, miguel.</p>
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		<title>
		By: miguel cervantes		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2023/06/27/open-thread-6-27-23/#comment-2686414</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[miguel cervantes]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Jun 2023 13:10:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.thenewneo.com/?p=126829#comment-2686414</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[the algorithm doesn&#039;t matter as much as the intent, they want to destroy the greatest country on earth, from the inside, if they can&#039;t yet defeat it by force of arms,]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>the algorithm doesn&#8217;t matter as much as the intent, they want to destroy the greatest country on earth, from the inside, if they can&#8217;t yet defeat it by force of arms,</p>
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		<title>
		By: Kate		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2023/06/27/open-thread-6-27-23/#comment-2686413</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Kate]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Jun 2023 12:56:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.thenewneo.com/?p=126829#comment-2686413</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Art Deco, I have a Union soldier and also one ancestor who may have owned slaves (although I don&#039;t know for sure). My husband is in the immigrant-since-1865 group. The reparations gang would have to create a complicated algorithm of everyone&#039;s ancestry. And not one of us is responsible for what previous generations did. The whole project is unmanageable and immoral.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Art Deco, I have a Union soldier and also one ancestor who may have owned slaves (although I don&#8217;t know for sure). My husband is in the immigrant-since-1865 group. The reparations gang would have to create a complicated algorithm of everyone&#8217;s ancestry. And not one of us is responsible for what previous generations did. The whole project is unmanageable and immoral.</p>
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		<title>
		By: miguel cervantes		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2023/06/27/open-thread-6-27-23/#comment-2686412</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[miguel cervantes]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Jun 2023 12:52:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.thenewneo.com/?p=126829#comment-2686412</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[twenty two years, they were planning the reparations push at durban, before 9/11 intervened,]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>twenty two years, they were planning the reparations push at durban, before 9/11 intervened,</p>
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		<title>
		By: miguel cervantes		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2023/06/27/open-thread-6-27-23/#comment-2686411</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[miguel cervantes]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Jun 2023 12:51:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.thenewneo.com/?p=126829#comment-2686411</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[they want to tear open an open wound and poor alcohol in it,]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>they want to tear open an open wound and poor alcohol in it,</p>
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		<title>
		By: Art Deco		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2023/06/27/open-thread-6-27-23/#comment-2686410</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Art Deco]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Jun 2023 12:49:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.thenewneo.com/?p=126829#comment-2686410</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[&lt;i&gt;Perhaps Reuters could do a similar study of the numbers of Americans descended from Union soldiers, who put their lives on the line in the war which ended slavery.&lt;/i&gt;
==
I have Union and Confederate veterans in my family tree. I have two slaveholders in my family tree who fought for the Confederacy and one who favored the Union.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Perhaps Reuters could do a similar study of the numbers of Americans descended from Union soldiers, who put their lives on the line in the war which ended slavery.</i><br />
==<br />
I have Union and Confederate veterans in my family tree. I have two slaveholders in my family tree who fought for the Confederacy and one who favored the Union.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Kate		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2023/06/27/open-thread-6-27-23/#comment-2686395</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Kate]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Jun 2023 11:58:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.thenewneo.com/?p=126829#comment-2686395</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Perhaps Reuters could do a similar study of the numbers of Americans descended from Union soldiers, who put their lives on the line in the war which ended slavery.

And then another, on the numbers of Americans who neither descended from slaveholders nor from Union soldiers, but from people who arrived here after 1865 and were not involved in any way. Huge numbers of those moved into states above the Mason-Dixon line where there was also not legally-enforced segregation, and many of these immigrants were themselves discriminated against by groups already here.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Perhaps Reuters could do a similar study of the numbers of Americans descended from Union soldiers, who put their lives on the line in the war which ended slavery.</p>
<p>And then another, on the numbers of Americans who neither descended from slaveholders nor from Union soldiers, but from people who arrived here after 1865 and were not involved in any way. Huge numbers of those moved into states above the Mason-Dixon line where there was also not legally-enforced segregation, and many of these immigrants were themselves discriminated against by groups already here.</p>
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		<title>
		By: AesopFan		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2023/06/27/open-thread-6-27-23/#comment-2686373</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[AesopFan]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Jun 2023 06:47:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.thenewneo.com/?p=126829#comment-2686373</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[@ Art Deco &#062; &quot;Another segment was devoted to members of Congress with slaveholder ancestors, with a soft focus piece on a some groveling fat slob in the Democratic caucus who’d grown up in Virginia (her name I forget) followed by Gregory Meeks of New York, &lt;b&gt;who professes to be incensed that Republican members of Congress ignore gotcha questions about their great-great grandfathers.&quot;&lt;/b&gt;

https://notthebee.com/article/reuters-investigates-discovers-every-single-living-us-president-descended-from-slaveholders-except-for-one-bad-orange-man

That&#039;s Biden, Obama, Bush II, Clinton, and Carter.
Go ahead with the gotcha questions, Mr Meeks.

And notice how FAST Reuters skips over that part, in order to get to the GOP.
I&#039;ve embedded a few &quot;context&quot; [notes], ala Twitter.

https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/usa-slavery-lawmakers/
&lt;blockquote&gt;Among 536 members of the last sitting Congress, Reuters determined at least 100 descend from slaveholders. Of that group, more than a quarter of the Senate – 28 members – can trace their families to at least one slaveholder.

&lt;b&gt;Those lawmakers from the 117th session of Congress are Democrats and Republicans alike.&lt;/b&gt; They include some of the most influential politicians in America: Republican senators Mitch McConnell, Lindsey Graham, Tom Cotton and James Lankford, and Democrats Elizabeth Warren, Tammy Duckworth, Jeanne Shaheen and Maggie Hassan.

In addition, President Joe Biden and every living former U.S. president – except Donald Trump – are direct descendants of slaveholders: Jimmy Carter, George W. Bush, Bill Clinton and – through his white mother’s side – Barack Obama. Trump’s ancestors came to America after slavery was abolished.

Two of the nine sitting U.S. Supreme Court justices – Amy Coney Barrett and Neil Gorsuch – also have direct ancestors who enslaved people.
...
Reuters found that at least 8% of Democrats in the last Congress and 28% of Republicans have such ancestors. The preponderance of Republicans reflects the party’s [current] strength in the South, where slavery was concentrated [under Democrats in the past]. 
...
The Reuters examination reveals how intimately tied America remains to the institution of slavery, including through the “people who make the laws that govern our country,” said Henry Louis Gates Jr, a professor at Harvard University who focuses on African and African American research and hosts the popular television genealogy show Finding Your Roots on PBS.

Gates said identifying those familial connections to slaveholders is “not another chapter in the blame game. &lt;b&gt;We do not inherit guilt for our ancestors’ actions.&lt;/b&gt;”

[even though that&#039;s the only reason Reuters published this report]

“It’s just to say: Look at how closely linked we are to the institution of slavery, and how it informed the lives of the ancestors of people who represent us in the United States Congress today,” Gates said. “This is a learning opportunity for each individual. It is also a learning opportunity for their constituency … and for the American people as a whole.”

In addition to the political leaders Reuters identified, “there are millions of Americans who are descendants of enslavers [who included Blacks and Native Americans] as well,” said Tony Burroughs, a genealogist who specializes in helping Black Americans trace their ancestries.

What’s unclear is how the proportion of leaders who descend from slaveholders compares to that of all Americans. Among scholars, there is no agreement on precisely how many Americans today have a forebear who enslaved people.
&lt;/blockquote&gt;
[thus the inanity of reparations, especially since some had ancestors on both sides of the freedom line; and many today had none on either side]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ Art Deco &gt; &#8220;Another segment was devoted to members of Congress with slaveholder ancestors, with a soft focus piece on a some groveling fat slob in the Democratic caucus who’d grown up in Virginia (her name I forget) followed by Gregory Meeks of New York, <b>who professes to be incensed that Republican members of Congress ignore gotcha questions about their great-great grandfathers.&#8221;</b></p>
<p><a href="https://notthebee.com/article/reuters-investigates-discovers-every-single-living-us-president-descended-from-slaveholders-except-for-one-bad-orange-man" rel="nofollow ugc">https://notthebee.com/article/reuters-investigates-discovers-every-single-living-us-president-descended-from-slaveholders-except-for-one-bad-orange-man</a></p>
<p>That&#8217;s Biden, Obama, Bush II, Clinton, and Carter.<br />
Go ahead with the gotcha questions, Mr Meeks.</p>
<p>And notice how FAST Reuters skips over that part, in order to get to the GOP.<br />
I&#8217;ve embedded a few &#8220;context&#8221; [notes], ala Twitter.</p>
<p><a href="https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/usa-slavery-lawmakers/" rel="nofollow ugc">https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/usa-slavery-lawmakers/</a></p>
<blockquote><p>Among 536 members of the last sitting Congress, Reuters determined at least 100 descend from slaveholders. Of that group, more than a quarter of the Senate – 28 members – can trace their families to at least one slaveholder.</p>
<p><b>Those lawmakers from the 117th session of Congress are Democrats and Republicans alike.</b> They include some of the most influential politicians in America: Republican senators Mitch McConnell, Lindsey Graham, Tom Cotton and James Lankford, and Democrats Elizabeth Warren, Tammy Duckworth, Jeanne Shaheen and Maggie Hassan.</p>
<p>In addition, President Joe Biden and every living former U.S. president – except Donald Trump – are direct descendants of slaveholders: Jimmy Carter, George W. Bush, Bill Clinton and – through his white mother’s side – Barack Obama. Trump’s ancestors came to America after slavery was abolished.</p>
<p>Two of the nine sitting U.S. Supreme Court justices – Amy Coney Barrett and Neil Gorsuch – also have direct ancestors who enslaved people.<br />
&#8230;<br />
Reuters found that at least 8% of Democrats in the last Congress and 28% of Republicans have such ancestors. The preponderance of Republicans reflects the party’s [current] strength in the South, where slavery was concentrated [under Democrats in the past].<br />
&#8230;<br />
The Reuters examination reveals how intimately tied America remains to the institution of slavery, including through the “people who make the laws that govern our country,” said Henry Louis Gates Jr, a professor at Harvard University who focuses on African and African American research and hosts the popular television genealogy show Finding Your Roots on PBS.</p>
<p>Gates said identifying those familial connections to slaveholders is “not another chapter in the blame game. <b>We do not inherit guilt for our ancestors’ actions.</b>”</p>
<p>[even though that&#8217;s the only reason Reuters published this report]</p>
<p>“It’s just to say: Look at how closely linked we are to the institution of slavery, and how it informed the lives of the ancestors of people who represent us in the United States Congress today,” Gates said. “This is a learning opportunity for each individual. It is also a learning opportunity for their constituency … and for the American people as a whole.”</p>
<p>In addition to the political leaders Reuters identified, “there are millions of Americans who are descendants of enslavers [who included Blacks and Native Americans] as well,” said Tony Burroughs, a genealogist who specializes in helping Black Americans trace their ancestries.</p>
<p>What’s unclear is how the proportion of leaders who descend from slaveholders compares to that of all Americans. Among scholars, there is no agreement on precisely how many Americans today have a forebear who enslaved people.
</p></blockquote>
<p>[thus the inanity of reparations, especially since some had ancestors on both sides of the freedom line; and many today had none on either side]</p>
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		<title>
		By: huxley		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2023/06/27/open-thread-6-27-23/#comment-2686363</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[huxley]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Jun 2023 04:02:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.thenewneo.com/?p=126829#comment-2686363</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[neo:

Good posts and discussions therein...

Updike was a force. Perhaps reading &quot;The Maple Stories&quot; would be a more suitable exploration than the Rabbit novels. Hemingway&#039;s short stories have stuck with me better than his novels.

If I may say, I sure can hear Updike in Kesey&#039;s second novel, &quot;Sometimes a Great Notion.&quot;]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>neo:</p>
<p>Good posts and discussions therein&#8230;</p>
<p>Updike was a force. Perhaps reading &#8220;The Maple Stories&#8221; would be a more suitable exploration than the Rabbit novels. Hemingway&#8217;s short stories have stuck with me better than his novels.</p>
<p>If I may say, I sure can hear Updike in Kesey&#8217;s second novel, &#8220;Sometimes a Great Notion.&#8221;</p>
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