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	Comments on: Answering the recurring question of why the Jews didn&#8217;t leave Germany in time	</title>
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	<link>https://thenewneo.com/2023/05/19/answering-the-recurring-question-of-why-the-jews-didnt-leave-germany-in-time/</link>
	<description>A blog about political change, among other things</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Sat, 28 Oct 2023 22:32:08 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		By: Why have overt expressions of Jew-hatred increased since October 7?		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2023/05/19/answering-the-recurring-question-of-why-the-jews-didnt-leave-germany-in-time/#comment-2705457</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Why have overt expressions of Jew-hatred increased since October 7?]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Oct 2023 22:32:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.thenewneo.com/?p=125979#comment-2705457</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[[&#8230;] this false &#8211; and pernicious &#8211; perception that Jews went meekly to the slaughter (see this, to take one example) when there were good alternatives they did not take. Not only did the [&#8230;]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;] this false &#8211; and pernicious &#8211; perception that Jews went meekly to the slaughter (see this, to take one example) when there were good alternatives they did not take. Not only did the [&#8230;]</p>
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		<title>
		By: Richard Aubrey		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2023/05/19/answering-the-recurring-question-of-why-the-jews-didnt-leave-germany-in-time/#comment-2680799</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Richard Aubrey]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 May 2023 14:50:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.thenewneo.com/?p=125979#comment-2680799</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Prager in &quot;Why The Jews&quot;  discusses the question in detail.   He goes further than making the case that the minority middleman  (Sowell) is going to catch crap no matter the ethnicity.
The Jewish culture, with certain efforts at things we all should value, does better.  Things like domestic abuse, slacking off at work, not supporting family.  The result of this, plus at least a bit of reluctance to associate with those who do considerably less well, or at least condone it, could be seen as &quot;stand offish&quot;.  This includes not marrying outside the faith.

That said, why being &quot;stand offish&quot; should annoy, much less offend is a question.  If they don&#039;t want to associate with me, I don&#039;t want to associate with them.  So we look at the additional component of envy.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Prager in &#8220;Why The Jews&#8221;  discusses the question in detail.   He goes further than making the case that the minority middleman  (Sowell) is going to catch crap no matter the ethnicity.<br />
The Jewish culture, with certain efforts at things we all should value, does better.  Things like domestic abuse, slacking off at work, not supporting family.  The result of this, plus at least a bit of reluctance to associate with those who do considerably less well, or at least condone it, could be seen as &#8220;stand offish&#8221;.  This includes not marrying outside the faith.</p>
<p>That said, why being &#8220;stand offish&#8221; should annoy, much less offend is a question.  If they don&#8217;t want to associate with me, I don&#8217;t want to associate with them.  So we look at the additional component of envy.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Mike-SMO		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2023/05/19/answering-the-recurring-question-of-why-the-jews-didnt-leave-germany-in-time/#comment-2680705</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Mike-SMO]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 May 2023 18:31:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.thenewneo.com/?p=125979#comment-2680705</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[It is difficult to identify reality amongst the propaganda producedby the Germans and the Soviets.

The Jews existed in a &quot;stand-offish&quot;  ulture but were frequently weii educated and literate. The ruling classes and land owners in Russia and in Germany/Poland/etc used the Jews as managers, tax collectors, and vodka sellers. That did not help the reputation of the Jews.

Pre-WWII Germany was a mess. Hitler is reported to have struck a &quot;deal&quot; with Zionist organizations allowing emigration as long as those Jews left most of their wealth to the state (NSDAP, Nazis). There was the additional benefit, since, as the Jews focused on the Mid-East, that process would cause difficulties in &quot;British&quot; Palestine. Such a deal! Stolen wealth and trouble for his opponents. 

The treatment of German Jews was complex. Well integrate Jews (or those with Jewish spouses) in the military or government were often ignored. &quot;Everyone&quot; knew that most of the Bolshevik leadership, the leaders of the German Communist/ Bolshevik party, and many in the Soviet KGB, especially in the Ukraine, were Jews. That is probably the reason that Jews were not welcome in the US. The Germans were quite pleased to eliminate those &quot;not worthy of life&quot; , but the &quot;concentration&quot; and &quot;labor&quot; camps were needed to support the military effort. They generally didn&#039;t care who made the chemicals, fuel and munitions. Those camps were difficult to operate. There was typhus (spread by lice) and antibiotics were not yet commonly available, so the camps had a significant death rate.

It was different in the East. Germany invzded the Slavic areas expecting to have to eliminate much of the population (I seem to recall ~20%) of the population to make room for German &quot;settlers&quot;. The German army had little information a out the &quot;East&quot; and seem to have operated on the assumption that anyone well-dressed and/or well-fed was, of course, a Communist or a collaborator. Jewish culture was effective so they sort of stood out. Since the Germans expected most Bolsheviks/Communists to be Jews, there was no easy way to escape the bind. 

The Russians/Soviets, driven by Stalin&#039;s paranoia, were no better than the Germans (Nazis). Millions died in the Russian camps (Gulag). The distinct Jewish compondnt in the early Bolshevik leadership and in rhe Ukrainian KGB (Holodomor) dumps most of the Russian/Soviet savagery into the laps of the &quot;Jews&quot;. That is probably unfair. The Soviets/Russians have struggled with the reluctance of the &quot;stand offish&quot; to join in the Bolshevik ideology. Hence the flow of Jews from Russia to Israel and the US. The count of &quot;6 Million&quot; killed by the Germans is suspect since it is based on un-verified Soviet data. In addition to the Holodomor in the Ukraine (3-12 million starved to death.), the deaths in the Gulag (many millions), Soviet Russia is also credited with murdering thousands of Polish and other prisoners (army officers, teachers, elected officials, priests, etc.) in places like the Katyn Forest prior to WWII. Indeed, members of the Russian Duma have recently suggested that up to 2 million Ukrainians may have to be killed to properly &quot;pacify&quot; that country. Thus the actions of Germany during WWII are still unclear. There are lots of savages out there who consider murder to be an acceptable means to an end.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It is difficult to identify reality amongst the propaganda producedby the Germans and the Soviets.</p>
<p>The Jews existed in a &#8220;stand-offish&#8221;  ulture but were frequently weii educated and literate. The ruling classes and land owners in Russia and in Germany/Poland/etc used the Jews as managers, tax collectors, and vodka sellers. That did not help the reputation of the Jews.</p>
<p>Pre-WWII Germany was a mess. Hitler is reported to have struck a &#8220;deal&#8221; with Zionist organizations allowing emigration as long as those Jews left most of their wealth to the state (NSDAP, Nazis). There was the additional benefit, since, as the Jews focused on the Mid-East, that process would cause difficulties in &#8220;British&#8221; Palestine. Such a deal! Stolen wealth and trouble for his opponents. </p>
<p>The treatment of German Jews was complex. Well integrate Jews (or those with Jewish spouses) in the military or government were often ignored. &#8220;Everyone&#8221; knew that most of the Bolshevik leadership, the leaders of the German Communist/ Bolshevik party, and many in the Soviet KGB, especially in the Ukraine, were Jews. That is probably the reason that Jews were not welcome in the US. The Germans were quite pleased to eliminate those &#8220;not worthy of life&#8221; , but the &#8220;concentration&#8221; and &#8220;labor&#8221; camps were needed to support the military effort. They generally didn&#8217;t care who made the chemicals, fuel and munitions. Those camps were difficult to operate. There was typhus (spread by lice) and antibiotics were not yet commonly available, so the camps had a significant death rate.</p>
<p>It was different in the East. Germany invzded the Slavic areas expecting to have to eliminate much of the population (I seem to recall ~20%) of the population to make room for German &#8220;settlers&#8221;. The German army had little information a out the &#8220;East&#8221; and seem to have operated on the assumption that anyone well-dressed and/or well-fed was, of course, a Communist or a collaborator. Jewish culture was effective so they sort of stood out. Since the Germans expected most Bolsheviks/Communists to be Jews, there was no easy way to escape the bind. </p>
<p>The Russians/Soviets, driven by Stalin&#8217;s paranoia, were no better than the Germans (Nazis). Millions died in the Russian camps (Gulag). The distinct Jewish compondnt in the early Bolshevik leadership and in rhe Ukrainian KGB (Holodomor) dumps most of the Russian/Soviet savagery into the laps of the &#8220;Jews&#8221;. That is probably unfair. The Soviets/Russians have struggled with the reluctance of the &#8220;stand offish&#8221; to join in the Bolshevik ideology. Hence the flow of Jews from Russia to Israel and the US. The count of &#8220;6 Million&#8221; killed by the Germans is suspect since it is based on un-verified Soviet data. In addition to the Holodomor in the Ukraine (3-12 million starved to death.), the deaths in the Gulag (many millions), Soviet Russia is also credited with murdering thousands of Polish and other prisoners (army officers, teachers, elected officials, priests, etc.) in places like the Katyn Forest prior to WWII. Indeed, members of the Russian Duma have recently suggested that up to 2 million Ukrainians may have to be killed to properly &#8220;pacify&#8221; that country. Thus the actions of Germany during WWII are still unclear. There are lots of savages out there who consider murder to be an acceptable means to an end.</p>
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		<title>
		By: BrooklynBoy		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2023/05/19/answering-the-recurring-question-of-why-the-jews-didnt-leave-germany-in-time/#comment-2680695</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[BrooklynBoy]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 May 2023 16:36:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.thenewneo.com/?p=125979#comment-2680695</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[FDR was a patrician anti-Semite.  He had several Jewish friends but you can hate Jews yet have Jewish friends.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>FDR was a patrician anti-Semite.  He had several Jewish friends but you can hate Jews yet have Jewish friends.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Avi		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2023/05/19/answering-the-recurring-question-of-why-the-jews-didnt-leave-germany-in-time/#comment-2680533</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Avi]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 May 2023 01:38:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.thenewneo.com/?p=125979#comment-2680533</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[“I think it has to be balanced against the fact that the material freed up would have still been expended, along with thousands more American, British, and Commonwealth casualties, fighting across France and the Low Countries to conquer Germany with a less effective Russian army pounding the Germans on the East.“

For the first six months after overlord, the western allies were fighting lesser German soldiers. Often they were wounded and partially invalid from action on the Eastern Front. Many were foreigners including Koreans. Those who weren’t ardent Nazis often surrendered.
While it’s true that the Russians won the war, Patton could have been a ringer. In fact the German General staff thought that he would end the war in Dec’44 as he was pushing rapidly through France. 
Unfortunately because US forces were slowed down and diverted to Paris to give DeGaulle a political victory, and petrol was diverted from Patton to Monty for Gallipoli 2.0 , any advantage was lost. Patton was forced to stop. The germans were able to regroup,Hitler sent ardent Nazis west ( who would fight to the death- those weren’t needed on the East because that was an existential fight) and the western allies were bogged down with many killed in Hurtgen Forest and the Bulge. Far more than had Lend Lease been curtailed.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>“I think it has to be balanced against the fact that the material freed up would have still been expended, along with thousands more American, British, and Commonwealth casualties, fighting across France and the Low Countries to conquer Germany with a less effective Russian army pounding the Germans on the East.“</p>
<p>For the first six months after overlord, the western allies were fighting lesser German soldiers. Often they were wounded and partially invalid from action on the Eastern Front. Many were foreigners including Koreans. Those who weren’t ardent Nazis often surrendered.<br />
While it’s true that the Russians won the war, Patton could have been a ringer. In fact the German General staff thought that he would end the war in Dec’44 as he was pushing rapidly through France.<br />
Unfortunately because US forces were slowed down and diverted to Paris to give DeGaulle a political victory, and petrol was diverted from Patton to Monty for Gallipoli 2.0 , any advantage was lost. Patton was forced to stop. The germans were able to regroup,Hitler sent ardent Nazis west ( who would fight to the death- those weren’t needed on the East because that was an existential fight) and the western allies were bogged down with many killed in Hurtgen Forest and the Bulge. Far more than had Lend Lease been curtailed.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Avi		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2023/05/19/answering-the-recurring-question-of-why-the-jews-didnt-leave-germany-in-time/#comment-2680529</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Avi]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 May 2023 01:22:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.thenewneo.com/?p=125979#comment-2680529</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[“There was definitely anti-Semitism in Wilhelmine Germany, but it was probably less than that in France and definitely less than that in Russia and in Eastern Europe.”
The Jew hatred of all three Reichs was a bottom up issue. When things were good it wasn’t because the Volk had an epiphany, but rather the temporary ruler ie Barbarosa was righteous.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>“There was definitely anti-Semitism in Wilhelmine Germany, but it was probably less than that in France and definitely less than that in Russia and in Eastern Europe.”<br />
The Jew hatred of all three Reichs was a bottom up issue. When things were good it wasn’t because the Volk had an epiphany, but rather the temporary ruler ie Barbarosa was righteous.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Avi		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2023/05/19/answering-the-recurring-question-of-why-the-jews-didnt-leave-germany-in-time/#comment-2680527</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Avi]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 May 2023 01:18:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.thenewneo.com/?p=125979#comment-2680527</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[“And the Jews living in Germany at the start of the 20th century were hoping and praying those days were relegated to Germany’s past.”
Yet between 1900 and 1910, pre nazi good Germans exterminated hundreds of thousands Chinese and 100k Herero and 10k Nama. They are very good at that.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>“And the Jews living in Germany at the start of the 20th century were hoping and praying those days were relegated to Germany’s past.”<br />
Yet between 1900 and 1910, pre nazi good Germans exterminated hundreds of thousands Chinese and 100k Herero and 10k Nama. They are very good at that.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Richard Aubrey		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2023/05/19/answering-the-recurring-question-of-why-the-jews-didnt-leave-germany-in-time/#comment-2680524</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Richard Aubrey]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 May 2023 00:24:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.thenewneo.com/?p=125979#comment-2680524</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[At the end of the Thirty Years War, greater Germany (German in language and culture although with many variations) was broken up into over 300 entities.  Baronies, bishoprics, imperial free cities, little places which might be townships now and larger places important in history since.
Presumably every one had its little castle, itslittle army and its little baroque ensemble.
As has been noted earlier, they varied one from another in many ways and Jews might have found it practical to move a few dozen miles for a better situation.

With the Revocation of The Edict of Nantes, Protestants lost all protection in France.  400,000 emigrated, to America, England, Holland and....Prussia.  They were, to a certain extent, middle class and Sowell&#039;s Minority Middleman.  Looking backward, you might not have expected...Prussia.  Point might be...guessing about the next ten years in, say, 1932, would have been hazy.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>At the end of the Thirty Years War, greater Germany (German in language and culture although with many variations) was broken up into over 300 entities.  Baronies, bishoprics, imperial free cities, little places which might be townships now and larger places important in history since.<br />
Presumably every one had its little castle, itslittle army and its little baroque ensemble.<br />
As has been noted earlier, they varied one from another in many ways and Jews might have found it practical to move a few dozen miles for a better situation.</p>
<p>With the Revocation of The Edict of Nantes, Protestants lost all protection in France.  400,000 emigrated, to America, England, Holland and&#8230;.Prussia.  They were, to a certain extent, middle class and Sowell&#8217;s Minority Middleman.  Looking backward, you might not have expected&#8230;Prussia.  Point might be&#8230;guessing about the next ten years in, say, 1932, would have been hazy.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Richard Aubrey		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2023/05/19/answering-the-recurring-question-of-why-the-jews-didnt-leave-germany-in-time/#comment-2680521</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Richard Aubrey]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 May 2023 23:54:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.thenewneo.com/?p=125979#comment-2680521</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Christoper B.  I don&#039;t have a counterfactual; I was reacting to one.

A datum sometimes overlooked is that the dreadful concentration camps in Germany were forced labor camps.  Death was expected, Dachau had its crematoria.  But first work.
Though they looked like the mouth of Hell to the guys who liberated them...Dachau had a survival rate of 80%.  Nordhausen, liberated by my father&#039;s division, had a 60% survival rate.

The death camps, off the train and into the gas chambers, were in Poland and kept operating until the Red Army was at their doorstep.  Auschwitz had a survival rate of 15%, likely Jews kept to do some of the dirty work and whatever of the last transport unprocessed when the Russians showed up.  The slower the Red Army, the more Jews died.  That would have been one result of reducing Lend Lease.

The example of the Train Near Magdeburg is of priorities.  That train was on its way to death for its Jews, one way or another.  It had halted while the crew tried to figure how to drive the thing off a bridge into a river without being on the front end.  Hearing Americans, pissed off and with tanks, were approaching, they fled.  This was in April of 45.  Had you said to one of the Kill Jews office, &quot;Hey, buddy.  How about knocking this off for a bit and trying not to lose the war.&quot; they have said you must be insane.

While the concentration camps got started in Thirties, the death camps weren&#039;t even built until after January of 42.

But there is the Iron Law of Military Counterfactuals:  Whatever wasn&#039;t done would, had it been done, have succeeded brilliantly.  Guaranteed.  Couldn&#039;t possibly fail.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Christoper B.  I don&#8217;t have a counterfactual; I was reacting to one.</p>
<p>A datum sometimes overlooked is that the dreadful concentration camps in Germany were forced labor camps.  Death was expected, Dachau had its crematoria.  But first work.<br />
Though they looked like the mouth of Hell to the guys who liberated them&#8230;Dachau had a survival rate of 80%.  Nordhausen, liberated by my father&#8217;s division, had a 60% survival rate.</p>
<p>The death camps, off the train and into the gas chambers, were in Poland and kept operating until the Red Army was at their doorstep.  Auschwitz had a survival rate of 15%, likely Jews kept to do some of the dirty work and whatever of the last transport unprocessed when the Russians showed up.  The slower the Red Army, the more Jews died.  That would have been one result of reducing Lend Lease.</p>
<p>The example of the Train Near Magdeburg is of priorities.  That train was on its way to death for its Jews, one way or another.  It had halted while the crew tried to figure how to drive the thing off a bridge into a river without being on the front end.  Hearing Americans, pissed off and with tanks, were approaching, they fled.  This was in April of 45.  Had you said to one of the Kill Jews office, &#8220;Hey, buddy.  How about knocking this off for a bit and trying not to lose the war.&#8221; they have said you must be insane.</p>
<p>While the concentration camps got started in Thirties, the death camps weren&#8217;t even built until after January of 42.</p>
<p>But there is the Iron Law of Military Counterfactuals:  Whatever wasn&#8217;t done would, had it been done, have succeeded brilliantly.  Guaranteed.  Couldn&#8217;t possibly fail.</p>
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		<title>
		By: West TX Intermediate Crude		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2023/05/19/answering-the-recurring-question-of-why-the-jews-didnt-leave-germany-in-time/#comment-2680495</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[West TX Intermediate Crude]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 May 2023 21:38:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.thenewneo.com/?p=125979#comment-2680495</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Very interesting article
https://www.ima.org.il/FilesUploadPublic/IMAJ/0/48/24103.pdf
about the experience of Jewish doctors as Nazism took hold in Germany.
It confirms that the Jewish population of Germany was 0.9%, as neo noted.  Of interest, a full 15% of German physicians were Jews, and this rose to 47% of pediatricians, who were particularly useful to the Nazis who were determined to raise a generation of appropriate young people. Best estimate I could find of USA physicians is also 15% Jewish, from a general population that is ~3% Jewish.
According to this article, The German Pediatric Society kicked all the Jews out.   Subsequently, laws were passed that stated the Jewish physicians could treat only Jewish patients, and then were forbidden to refer to themselves as physicians or doctors. Later of course they were sent to the camps, where most died.
What were they allowed to use to describe their professional status?
The German word was &quot;Behandler,&quot; which the author of this paper translates as &quot;Provider.&quot;
That got my attention.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Very interesting article<br />
<a href="https://www.ima.org.il/FilesUploadPublic/IMAJ/0/48/24103.pdf" rel="nofollow ugc">https://www.ima.org.il/FilesUploadPublic/IMAJ/0/48/24103.pdf</a><br />
about the experience of Jewish doctors as Nazism took hold in Germany.<br />
It confirms that the Jewish population of Germany was 0.9%, as neo noted.  Of interest, a full 15% of German physicians were Jews, and this rose to 47% of pediatricians, who were particularly useful to the Nazis who were determined to raise a generation of appropriate young people. Best estimate I could find of USA physicians is also 15% Jewish, from a general population that is ~3% Jewish.<br />
According to this article, The German Pediatric Society kicked all the Jews out.   Subsequently, laws were passed that stated the Jewish physicians could treat only Jewish patients, and then were forbidden to refer to themselves as physicians or doctors. Later of course they were sent to the camps, where most died.<br />
What were they allowed to use to describe their professional status?<br />
The German word was &#8220;Behandler,&#8221; which the author of this paper translates as &#8220;Provider.&#8221;<br />
That got my attention.</p>
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