Comments on: What will happen to Daniel Penny? And what should have happened to Jordan Neely?

By: Richard Aubrey

Richard Aubrey — Tue, 16 May 2023 11:36:58 +0000

budhaha

Touche’.

So when do we hear, “Love to help you, buddy, but I’m white.”?

We’re already at the point where helping a lone woman in chancy.

By: buddhaha

buddhaha — Tue, 16 May 2023 04:03:03 +0000

…”I’d have been justified given the circumstances.”

Not if you’re an LA cop…
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/City_of_Los_Angeles_v._Lyons

By: Richard Aubrey

Richard Aubrey — Mon, 15 May 2023 20:53:07 +0000

The discussion has to do with the carotid hold. The presumed point is that only a carotid hold was justified, since Penny is being defended as having used a carotid hold for submission and restraint purposes. But this is not the same thing as deciding what kind of hold would be justified. Perhaps a bar would be useful and justified. The initial discussion saying it’s not a “choke hold” but a submission hold seems to have opened the presumption that only a carotid/submission hold is justified here. IMO, that’s an open question. That it would have been a good idea doesn’t mean it’s the only legal option.
I used a hold against the larynx to stop a fight. It hurts and I’m in charge of how much more it’s going to hurt. The guy settled down fast. Had he wanted to fight, I might have injured him, but I’d have been justified given the circumstances.

By: Art Deco

Art Deco — Mon, 15 May 2023 18:23:37 +0000

Manslaughter, unless a different cause of death can be plausibly presented.
==
No, in New York you’d have to demonstrate intent to injure, recklessness, or criminal negligence.

By: buddhaha

buddhaha — Mon, 15 May 2023 17:38:22 +0000

“he died in the hospital, after he released the hold, that suggests another cause,”

Anoxia causes brain damage, progressively. It’s possible to create enough that it doesn’t kill immediately, but is ultimately unsurvivable. Strokes, for example, rarely kill immediately.

By: Art Deco

Art Deco — Mon, 15 May 2023 17:15:45 +0000

his attorneys should be hiring their own pathologist, because, with what has been reported as the coroner’s findings, he’s dead meat on a manslaughter charge.
==
The prosecutors in Minneapolis and Baltimore managed to compromise local medical examiners. Anything a local coroner says in support of the prosecution’s case should be regarded with skepticism.

By: miguel cervantes

miguel cervantes — Mon, 15 May 2023 17:05:53 +0000

he died in the hospital, after he released the hold, that suggests another cause,

By: buddhaha

buddhaha — Mon, 15 May 2023 16:57:37 +0000

At a million bucks plus, his attorneys should be hiring their own pathologist, because, with what has been reported as the coroner’s findings, he’s dead meat on a manslaughter charge.

A properly applied sleeper (not “choke”) hold places the crook of the elbow over the larynx and applies compression the the Carotid arteries, cutting off blood flow to the brain causing unconsciousness in 10-20 seconds. Held too long (3 minutes at the lower end) severe brain damage occurs, long enough will cause death.

Improperly applied with the crook to one side or the other, it compresses the airway and can collapse it, permanently. Even when released, the subject will die without a tracheotomy. Or it can displace vertibrae , same result.

A bar hold, with the forearm across the throat is a deliberate killing hold.

The possibility of death because of improper application, and actual of examples of same, is why many police departments (LA being the prime example) have forbidden neck holds, and those that allow it have strict time limits on how long it can be applied – at 90 seconds the subject will stay out long enough to get him (or her, don’t want to be sexist 😉 ) into restraints.

As a Marine, he was trained in the application of both bar and sleeper holds and taught the difference. If he applied a bar or held the sleeper too long, he is supposed to have known better.

Manslaughter, unless a different cause of death can be plausibly presented.

By: miguel cervantes

miguel cervantes — Mon, 15 May 2023 15:27:51 +0000

rolling moss, yes I trust them implicitly,

By: Richard Aubrey

Richard Aubrey — Mon, 15 May 2023 15:23:41 +0000

I can’t recall if this was the context in which I posted the last two lines of Kipling’s “Tommy”.
In any event, I’ll do it again:

“An’ Tommy ain’t a bloomin’ fool,
You bet that Tommy sees.”

Tommy is the rough man standing ready to do violence on your behalf. Bad enough getting dissed at a pub. Not let into a theater. Hence the implicit threat.

But prosecuted…. Lied about by leading politicians….

Tommy is the rough man. If he fails to report for duty, what are you going to do? Are you rough enough?

For OCD types, the above is metaphor.