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	Comments on: Open thread 2/23/23	</title>
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	<description>A blog about political change, among other things</description>
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		<title>
		By: huxley		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2023/02/23/open-thread-2-23-23/#comment-2668638</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[huxley]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 26 Feb 2023 17:23:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.thenewneo.com/?p=124256#comment-2668638</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Re: Dickey / &quot;The Performance&quot;

Hubert:

Yes, when I think of Dickey the poet, I think of &quot;The Performance&quot; and his Twilight-Zone-ish chiller, &quot;The Sheep Child.&quot; 

Only for the brave:

https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/42713/the-sheep-child]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re: Dickey / &#8220;The Performance&#8221;</p>
<p>Hubert:</p>
<p>Yes, when I think of Dickey the poet, I think of &#8220;The Performance&#8221; and his Twilight-Zone-ish chiller, &#8220;The Sheep Child.&#8221; </p>
<p>Only for the brave:</p>
<p><a href="https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/42713/the-sheep-child" rel="nofollow ugc">https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/42713/the-sheep-child</a></p>
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		<title>
		By: huxley		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2023/02/23/open-thread-2-23-23/#comment-2668637</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[huxley]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 26 Feb 2023 17:21:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.thenewneo.com/?p=124256#comment-2668637</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Re: Henri Coulette / &quot;On the Horizon&quot;

Hubert:

You&#039;re welcome!

Geez, I just realized that more than likely in the poem for my father Coulette was thinking of those photos of the Whole Earth which NASA had recently made available.

Gives the poem a whole new feeling.

I&#039;ve been fascinated with Dana Gioia ever since I read his controversial essay, &quot;Can Poetry Matter?&quot; He was looking square at the decline of poetry outside its own bubble. Not pretty.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re: Henri Coulette / &#8220;On the Horizon&#8221;</p>
<p>Hubert:</p>
<p>You&#8217;re welcome!</p>
<p>Geez, I just realized that more than likely in the poem for my father Coulette was thinking of those photos of the Whole Earth which NASA had recently made available.</p>
<p>Gives the poem a whole new feeling.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve been fascinated with Dana Gioia ever since I read his controversial essay, &#8220;Can Poetry Matter?&#8221; He was looking square at the decline of poetry outside its own bubble. Not pretty.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Hubert		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2023/02/23/open-thread-2-23-23/#comment-2668630</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Hubert]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 26 Feb 2023 16:25:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.thenewneo.com/?p=124256#comment-2668630</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Huxley: thanks for the reminder about Henri Coulette, and for that poem in memory of your father. Very nice. You were fortunate to have him as a mentor.

Joseph Langland--another forgotten poet--kindly critiqued my teenage juvenilia when I had him as a professor at UMass. Way too kindly, looking back on it. I sent some of my later work to Dana Gioia after running into and recognizing him at an airport in Connecticut. He liked it and encouraged me to publish. I didn&#039;t have the guts to back then. Still don&#039;t. Anyway, as Richard Wilbur said about some other activity (running, if I recall correctly): the god of that has left me.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Huxley: thanks for the reminder about Henri Coulette, and for that poem in memory of your father. Very nice. You were fortunate to have him as a mentor.</p>
<p>Joseph Langland&#8211;another forgotten poet&#8211;kindly critiqued my teenage juvenilia when I had him as a professor at UMass. Way too kindly, looking back on it. I sent some of my later work to Dana Gioia after running into and recognizing him at an airport in Connecticut. He liked it and encouraged me to publish. I didn&#8217;t have the guts to back then. Still don&#8217;t. Anyway, as Richard Wilbur said about some other activity (running, if I recall correctly): the god of that has left me.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Hubert		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2023/02/23/open-thread-2-23-23/#comment-2668628</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Hubert]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 26 Feb 2023 16:03:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.thenewneo.com/?p=124256#comment-2668628</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Huxley: yes, I knew that Nemerov was Diane Arbus&#039; brother (I also used to be into classic-camera black-and-white photography). Interesting family. Like out of a J. D. Salinger short story.

I think I have the same collection of Merwin&#039;s first four books of poetry that you have. Published by Atheneum in the mid-1970s on fine paper. Nice book, but Merwin&#039;s poetry never quite clicked with me. That said, I found his work to be more accessible--and more enjoyable--than John Ashbery&#039;s neo-absurdist stuff. I half-suspected Ashbery was a very clever literary con man.

One of James Dickey&#039;s poems has a line that would serve as a pretty good gravestone epitaph for anybody:

&quot;Having done all things in this life that he could.&quot;

From &quot;The Performance&quot;:

https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poetrymagazine/poems/28057/the-performance

About a fellow USAAF aviator who was shot down in the Pacific and executed--beheaded--by the Japanese.

I think it was you who made the point in a previous poetry-heavy thread that poets seem to be disproportionately susceptible to mental illness and substance abuse (alcoholism) and to lead disproportionately messy lives. Many fit that pattern. Dickey partly did: he was an alcoholic and (I gather) a bad husband. But he also had a fairly successful business career (Coca-Cola), at least for a while. Other businessman-poets are T. S. Eliot (banking), Wallace Stevens (insurance), and Dana Gioia (food industry). Richard Wilbur--perhaps the best American formalist poet of the 20th century--was formidably sane. He was also deeply religious. Not coincidental, I&#039;ll bet.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Huxley: yes, I knew that Nemerov was Diane Arbus&#8217; brother (I also used to be into classic-camera black-and-white photography). Interesting family. Like out of a J. D. Salinger short story.</p>
<p>I think I have the same collection of Merwin&#8217;s first four books of poetry that you have. Published by Atheneum in the mid-1970s on fine paper. Nice book, but Merwin&#8217;s poetry never quite clicked with me. That said, I found his work to be more accessible&#8211;and more enjoyable&#8211;than John Ashbery&#8217;s neo-absurdist stuff. I half-suspected Ashbery was a very clever literary con man.</p>
<p>One of James Dickey&#8217;s poems has a line that would serve as a pretty good gravestone epitaph for anybody:</p>
<p>&#8220;Having done all things in this life that he could.&#8221;</p>
<p>From &#8220;The Performance&#8221;:</p>
<p><a href="https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poetrymagazine/poems/28057/the-performance" rel="nofollow ugc">https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poetrymagazine/poems/28057/the-performance</a></p>
<p>About a fellow USAAF aviator who was shot down in the Pacific and executed&#8211;beheaded&#8211;by the Japanese.</p>
<p>I think it was you who made the point in a previous poetry-heavy thread that poets seem to be disproportionately susceptible to mental illness and substance abuse (alcoholism) and to lead disproportionately messy lives. Many fit that pattern. Dickey partly did: he was an alcoholic and (I gather) a bad husband. But he also had a fairly successful business career (Coca-Cola), at least for a while. Other businessman-poets are T. S. Eliot (banking), Wallace Stevens (insurance), and Dana Gioia (food industry). Richard Wilbur&#8211;perhaps the best American formalist poet of the 20th century&#8211;was formidably sane. He was also deeply religious. Not coincidental, I&#8217;ll bet.</p>
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		<title>
		By: huxley		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2023/02/23/open-thread-2-23-23/#comment-2668626</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[huxley]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 26 Feb 2023 15:41:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.thenewneo.com/?p=124256#comment-2668626</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I could have mentioned Henri Coulette (1927-1988) in my list. He was well-regarded by his peers but he only published two books and today few know him. Some years after his death, his friends, Donald Justice and Robert Mezey, succeeded in their push for &quot;The Collected Poems of Henri Coulette&quot; to be published.

He was also my father&#039;s best childhood friend, while growing up in Santa Fe. Coulette wrote this poem after my father&#039;s death:
_______________________________

&lt;i&gt; &lt;b&gt;On the Horizon&lt;/b&gt;
                     for John Trainor
 
     It is just what he had imagined,
     A blue-chalk line
     Such as girls use, summers,
     For hop-scotch.
 
     He crosses over it,
     The left slipper first,
     For luck, and then,
 
     The right forever.
 
     If he were to look back--
     But he won&#039;t,
     He&#039;s beyond that--
 
     He would see, the light being right,
     Everything
     As it always intended itself.
 
     --Henri Coulette, &quot;The Family Goldschmitt&quot; (1971)&lt;/i&gt;
_______________________________

When I moved to California in 1982, I met Henri in a Beverly Hills coffee shop, which was halfway between where he lived in Pomona and I was staying in Thousand Oaks.

He was a kind, generous man who loved my father and even encouraged me as a young poet. I feel so fortunate to have met him.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I could have mentioned Henri Coulette (1927-1988) in my list. He was well-regarded by his peers but he only published two books and today few know him. Some years after his death, his friends, Donald Justice and Robert Mezey, succeeded in their push for &#8220;The Collected Poems of Henri Coulette&#8221; to be published.</p>
<p>He was also my father&#8217;s best childhood friend, while growing up in Santa Fe. Coulette wrote this poem after my father&#8217;s death:<br />
_______________________________</p>
<p><i> <b>On the Horizon</b><br />
                     for John Trainor</p>
<p>     It is just what he had imagined,<br />
     A blue-chalk line<br />
     Such as girls use, summers,<br />
     For hop-scotch.</p>
<p>     He crosses over it,<br />
     The left slipper first,<br />
     For luck, and then,</p>
<p>     The right forever.</p>
<p>     If he were to look back&#8211;<br />
     But he won&#8217;t,<br />
     He&#8217;s beyond that&#8211;</p>
<p>     He would see, the light being right,<br />
     Everything<br />
     As it always intended itself.</p>
<p>     &#8211;Henri Coulette, &#8220;The Family Goldschmitt&#8221; (1971)</i><br />
_______________________________</p>
<p>When I moved to California in 1982, I met Henri in a Beverly Hills coffee shop, which was halfway between where he lived in Pomona and I was staying in Thousand Oaks.</p>
<p>He was a kind, generous man who loved my father and even encouraged me as a young poet. I feel so fortunate to have met him.</p>
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		<title>
		By: huxley		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2023/02/23/open-thread-2-23-23/#comment-2668615</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[huxley]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 26 Feb 2023 14:15:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.thenewneo.com/?p=124256#comment-2668615</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Hubert:

Dang. Forgot James Dickey! (Also author of &quot;Deliverance.) I recall his review of &quot;The Moving Target&quot; which reinforced my impression above:
_________________________

&lt;i&gt;What matters most, though, is that these poems [of &quot;The Moving Target&quot;] are so incomparably the author&#039;s best as to make the reader inadvertently believe that Mr. Merwin&#039;s previous books were by somebody else.

&lt;b&gt;There is a feeling of imaginative daring here, a sense of pushing-out, of going-beyond, of linguistic adventurousness that was the main missing ingredient in the author&#039;s other poems.&lt;/b&gt;

--James Dickey, &quot;The Many Ways of Speaking in Verse&quot; (1963)
https://archive.nytimes.com/www.nytimes.com/books/99/04/04/specials/merwin-moving.html&lt;/i&gt;
_________________________

I bought a book, which collected the first four books of Merwin&#039;s poetry, and Dickey was quite right. Those books seemed to have been written by someone else.

Dickey was a force of his own. His poems were more formal than I liked but he could make a poem happen. The first line of &quot;Deliverance&quot; is practically a poem unto itself:
__________________________

&lt;i&gt;It unrolled slowly, forced to show its colors, curling and snapping back whenever one of us turned loose.&lt;/i&gt;
__________________________

Dickey is describing the map to the river our adventurers plan to tour by canoe.

BTW, did you know Nemerov was brother to Diane Arbus, the photographer?]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hubert:</p>
<p>Dang. Forgot James Dickey! (Also author of &#8220;Deliverance.) I recall his review of &#8220;The Moving Target&#8221; which reinforced my impression above:<br />
_________________________</p>
<p><i>What matters most, though, is that these poems [of &#8220;The Moving Target&#8221;] are so incomparably the author&#8217;s best as to make the reader inadvertently believe that Mr. Merwin&#8217;s previous books were by somebody else.</p>
<p><b>There is a feeling of imaginative daring here, a sense of pushing-out, of going-beyond, of linguistic adventurousness that was the main missing ingredient in the author&#8217;s other poems.</b></p>
<p>&#8211;James Dickey, &#8220;The Many Ways of Speaking in Verse&#8221; (1963)<br />
<a href="https://archive.nytimes.com/www.nytimes.com/books/99/04/04/specials/merwin-moving.html" rel="nofollow ugc">https://archive.nytimes.com/www.nytimes.com/books/99/04/04/specials/merwin-moving.html</a></i><br />
_________________________</p>
<p>I bought a book, which collected the first four books of Merwin&#8217;s poetry, and Dickey was quite right. Those books seemed to have been written by someone else.</p>
<p>Dickey was a force of his own. His poems were more formal than I liked but he could make a poem happen. The first line of &#8220;Deliverance&#8221; is practically a poem unto itself:<br />
__________________________</p>
<p><i>It unrolled slowly, forced to show its colors, curling and snapping back whenever one of us turned loose.</i><br />
__________________________</p>
<p>Dickey is describing the map to the river our adventurers plan to tour by canoe.</p>
<p>BTW, did you know Nemerov was brother to Diane Arbus, the photographer?</p>
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		<title>
		By: AesopFan		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2023/02/23/open-thread-2-23-23/#comment-2668603</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[AesopFan]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 26 Feb 2023 08:53:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.thenewneo.com/?p=124256#comment-2668603</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[@ stan &#062; &quot;Analysis of Covid data, election returns, polling, global warming, finance, economics — all start with the assumption that the data is honestly compiled and accurate. And every time we look under the hood we find it’s all crap.&quot;

Sarah Hoyt wrote a post on this very thing, looking at population &quot;data&quot; as reported by most countries, all of which have an agenda that incentivizes cooking the books.

https://accordingtohoyt.com/2023/02/20/the-power-of-lies/]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ stan &gt; &#8220;Analysis of Covid data, election returns, polling, global warming, finance, economics — all start with the assumption that the data is honestly compiled and accurate. And every time we look under the hood we find it’s all crap.&#8221;</p>
<p>Sarah Hoyt wrote a post on this very thing, looking at population &#8220;data&#8221; as reported by most countries, all of which have an agenda that incentivizes cooking the books.</p>
<p><a href="https://accordingtohoyt.com/2023/02/20/the-power-of-lies/" rel="nofollow ugc">https://accordingtohoyt.com/2023/02/20/the-power-of-lies/</a></p>
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		<title>
		By: Hubert		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2023/02/23/open-thread-2-23-23/#comment-2668461</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Hubert]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 25 Feb 2023 15:53:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.thenewneo.com/?p=124256#comment-2668461</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Other American poets born in the 1920s:

Howard Nemerov 1920
Richard Wilbur 1921
James Dickey 1923
Anthony Hecht 1923
Louis Simpson 1923
Edgar Bowers 1924
Donald Justice 1925
W. D. Snodgrass 1926
Galway Kinnell 1927
James Wright 1927

My taste differs from Huxley&#039;s. He likes the Beatnik, West Coast, and Black Mountain School poets. I prefer the formalists. Wilbur, Hecht, Bowers, and Simpson were G.I. poets and WWII combat veterans. Nemerov served in the Royal Canadian Air Force. Dickey served in the USAAF in the Pacific. Snodgrass served in the Navy. I heard Hecht speak about his war experiences a few months before he died in 2004. He had no use for talk about &quot;the Good War&quot; and &quot;the Greatest Generation&quot;.

Honorable mention to Joseph Langland (1917-2007), another WWII combat veteran poet and my old English prof at UMass.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Other American poets born in the 1920s:</p>
<p>Howard Nemerov 1920<br />
Richard Wilbur 1921<br />
James Dickey 1923<br />
Anthony Hecht 1923<br />
Louis Simpson 1923<br />
Edgar Bowers 1924<br />
Donald Justice 1925<br />
W. D. Snodgrass 1926<br />
Galway Kinnell 1927<br />
James Wright 1927</p>
<p>My taste differs from Huxley&#8217;s. He likes the Beatnik, West Coast, and Black Mountain School poets. I prefer the formalists. Wilbur, Hecht, Bowers, and Simpson were G.I. poets and WWII combat veterans. Nemerov served in the Royal Canadian Air Force. Dickey served in the USAAF in the Pacific. Snodgrass served in the Navy. I heard Hecht speak about his war experiences a few months before he died in 2004. He had no use for talk about &#8220;the Good War&#8221; and &#8220;the Greatest Generation&#8221;.</p>
<p>Honorable mention to Joseph Langland (1917-2007), another WWII combat veteran poet and my old English prof at UMass.</p>
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		<title>
		By: huxley		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2023/02/23/open-thread-2-23-23/#comment-2668453</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[huxley]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 25 Feb 2023 14:45:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.thenewneo.com/?p=124256#comment-2668453</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[&quot;Air&quot; is a well-known poem from Merwin&#039;s &quot;The Moving Target.&quot; I believe it is largely about Merwin finding his own way in poetry. I was rather excited when I realized that on my own.
_________________________________

&lt;i&gt;&lt;b&gt;Air&lt;/b&gt;

Naturally it is night.
Under the overturned lute with its
One string I am going my way
Which has a strange sound.

This way the dust, that way the dust.
I listen to both sides
But I keep right on.
I remember the leaves sitting in judgment
And then winter.

I remember the rain with its bundle of roads.
The rain taking all its roads.
Nowhere.

Young as I am, old as I am,

I forget tomorrow, the blind man.
I forget the life among the buried windows.
The eyes in the curtains.
The wall
Growing through the immortelles.
I forget silence
The owner of the smile.

&lt;b&gt;This must be what I wanted to be doing,
Walking at night between the two deserts,
Singing.&lt;/b&gt;

--W.S. Merwin
http://famouspoetsandpoems.com/poets/w__s__merwin/poems/19920&lt;/i&gt;
_________________________________

However, there are other views such as:

https://poemanalysis.com/w-s-merwin/air/

Which gets the part right about Merwin walking between the past and the future, but the rest strikes me as overwrought critical bull.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Air&#8221; is a well-known poem from Merwin&#8217;s &#8220;The Moving Target.&#8221; I believe it is largely about Merwin finding his own way in poetry. I was rather excited when I realized that on my own.<br />
_________________________________</p>
<p><i><b>Air</b></p>
<p>Naturally it is night.<br />
Under the overturned lute with its<br />
One string I am going my way<br />
Which has a strange sound.</p>
<p>This way the dust, that way the dust.<br />
I listen to both sides<br />
But I keep right on.<br />
I remember the leaves sitting in judgment<br />
And then winter.</p>
<p>I remember the rain with its bundle of roads.<br />
The rain taking all its roads.<br />
Nowhere.</p>
<p>Young as I am, old as I am,</p>
<p>I forget tomorrow, the blind man.<br />
I forget the life among the buried windows.<br />
The eyes in the curtains.<br />
The wall<br />
Growing through the immortelles.<br />
I forget silence<br />
The owner of the smile.</p>
<p><b>This must be what I wanted to be doing,<br />
Walking at night between the two deserts,<br />
Singing.</b></p>
<p>&#8211;W.S. Merwin<br />
<a href="http://famouspoetsandpoems.com/poets/w__s__merwin/poems/19920" rel="nofollow ugc">http://famouspoetsandpoems.com/poets/w__s__merwin/poems/19920</a></i><br />
_________________________________</p>
<p>However, there are other views such as:</p>
<p><a href="https://poemanalysis.com/w-s-merwin/air/" rel="nofollow ugc">https://poemanalysis.com/w-s-merwin/air/</a></p>
<p>Which gets the part right about Merwin walking between the past and the future, but the rest strikes me as overwrought critical bull.</p>
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		<title>
		By: huxley		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2023/02/23/open-thread-2-23-23/#comment-2668452</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[huxley]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 25 Feb 2023 14:29:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.thenewneo.com/?p=124256#comment-2668452</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[AesopFan:

&quot;Lemuel&#039;s Blessing&quot; is from Merwin&#039;s early collection, &quot;The Moving Target,&quot; in which he was struggling to find his own voice and how to write poetry. The book title is a clue.

Merwin had already published four books of poetry in that rather dense, allusive, formal style of the 50s (which I generally don&#039;t care for). He was well-regarded as an up-and-coming young poet.

In &quot;The Moving Target&quot; Merwin broke with his past and launched himself into a more open, accessible, yet experimental style influenced by his wide readings in international poetry particularly surrealism.

One might say &quot;The Moving Target&quot; was Merwin&#039;s &quot;Revolver&quot; album. Exciting stuff for aficionados.

Merwin never looked back. He produced a unique and rich body of work. He walked his own path between academic poetry and the various other movements percolating in his time.

If you liked &quot;Lemuel&#039;s Blessing,&quot; try &quot;The Moving Target.&quot;]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>AesopFan:</p>
<p>&#8220;Lemuel&#8217;s Blessing&#8221; is from Merwin&#8217;s early collection, &#8220;The Moving Target,&#8221; in which he was struggling to find his own voice and how to write poetry. The book title is a clue.</p>
<p>Merwin had already published four books of poetry in that rather dense, allusive, formal style of the 50s (which I generally don&#8217;t care for). He was well-regarded as an up-and-coming young poet.</p>
<p>In &#8220;The Moving Target&#8221; Merwin broke with his past and launched himself into a more open, accessible, yet experimental style influenced by his wide readings in international poetry particularly surrealism.</p>
<p>One might say &#8220;The Moving Target&#8221; was Merwin&#8217;s &#8220;Revolver&#8221; album. Exciting stuff for aficionados.</p>
<p>Merwin never looked back. He produced a unique and rich body of work. He walked his own path between academic poetry and the various other movements percolating in his time.</p>
<p>If you liked &#8220;Lemuel&#8217;s Blessing,&#8221; try &#8220;The Moving Target.&#8221;</p>
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