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	Comments on: Open thread 11/23/22	</title>
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	<link>https://thenewneo.com/2022/11/23/open-thread-11-23-22/</link>
	<description>A blog about political change, among other things</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Mon, 28 Nov 2022 17:55:52 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>
		By: Brian E		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2022/11/23/open-thread-11-23-22/#comment-2655197</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Brian E]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Nov 2022 17:55:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.thenewneo.com/?p=122246#comment-2655197</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[1. Concern troll? That&#039;s your best insult? At least om came up with calling me dumb. 
I can&#039;t help you if you don&#039;t see para-military groups coerce through intimidation/violence national policy. You wouldn&#039;t like it if BLM/Antifa were doing the same thing here.
2. It is a civil war. The Donbas region was seeking federalization at the same time Ukraine was declaring its independence. In 1994, a referendum was held in the Donbas which overwhelmingly voted for federalization and recognition of the Russian language as an equal in official use. 
3.The nationalists were opposed to the coup overthrowing a President that appeared to be favoring Russia over EU? Not likely
4.The US government opposed the coup? McCain met with the opposition leaders. Nuland was out and about handing out treats to the protestors.

&lt;i&gt;&quot;The extent of the Obama administration’s meddling in Ukraine’s politics was breathtaking. Russian intelligence intercepted and leaked to the international media a Nuland telephone call in which she and U.S. ambassador to Ukraine Geoffey Pyatt discussed in detail their preferences for specific personnel in a post??Yanukovych government. The U.S?favored candidates included Arseniy Yatsenyuk, the man who became prime minister once Yanukovych was ousted from power. During the telephone call, Nuland stated enthusiastically that “Yats is the guy” who would do the best job.&quot;

&quot;Nuland and Pyatt were engaged in such planning at a time when Yanukovych was still Ukraine’s lawful president. It was startling to have diplomatic representatives of a foreign country—and a country that routinely touts the need to respect democratic processes and the sovereignty of other nations—to be scheming about removing an elected government and replacing it with officials meriting U.S. approval.&quot;

&quot;Washington’s conduct not only constituted meddling, it bordered on micromanagement.&quot;&lt;/i&gt;

https://www.cato.org/commentary/americas-ukraine-hypocrisy

6. Yushchenko was elected in 2004 despite the poisoning (or because of it-- sympathy). Even though he talked about Ukraine&#039;s European connection, he was defeated in 2010 by Yanokovych, probably by the reform platform he ran on. Yushchenko&#039;s platform included &quot;Restore financial stability in the country by implementing the International Monetary Fund reforms and a balanced budget&quot;-- which in other words, austerity. Nothing like telling the truth to get you fired.
7. 8. He was overthrown. He left for Crimea, then Russia, fearing he would be assassinated. &quot;...there were no articles of impeachment brought against Yanukovych. Instead, the Verkhovna Rada voted on February 22, 2014 to &lt;i&gt;&quot;remove Viktor Yanukovych from the post of president of Ukraine&quot; on the grounds that he was unable to fulfill his duties, and to hold early presidential elections on May 25.&quot;&lt;/i&gt; - Wikipedia
9. He didn&#039;t agree to the terms for joining the EU because of the austerity program the country would have to endure to become a member. In 2013 Ukraine&#039;s per capita GDP was just over $4,000. Greece, one of the poorer EU member&#039;s per capita GDP was $21,000 at the same time. It would have been suicide (as opposed to assassination). 
10. &lt;i&gt;&quot;Under such alliance, all future candidates for government office would have to be approved by Russia before appearing on the ballot.&quot;&lt;/i&gt; mkent
I&#039;m unfamiliar with this. Please provide a link to the terms of the agreement. 

Everything about what is happening in Ukraine points to the terribly divided nature of Ukraine. There is no chance Ukraine will ever regain control of Crimea or the Donbas region, especially given the influence by the ultra-nationalists. 
The war won&#039;t last another year. Rather than destroy Ukraine in a senseless attempt to defang Russia, we should encourage/force Ukraine to accept a settlement. It&#039;s only our money that is allowing Russia to destroy Ukraine.

Those three areas are majority/near majority ethnic Russian.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>1. Concern troll? That&#8217;s your best insult? At least om came up with calling me dumb.<br />
I can&#8217;t help you if you don&#8217;t see para-military groups coerce through intimidation/violence national policy. You wouldn&#8217;t like it if BLM/Antifa were doing the same thing here.<br />
2. It is a civil war. The Donbas region was seeking federalization at the same time Ukraine was declaring its independence. In 1994, a referendum was held in the Donbas which overwhelmingly voted for federalization and recognition of the Russian language as an equal in official use.<br />
3.The nationalists were opposed to the coup overthrowing a President that appeared to be favoring Russia over EU? Not likely<br />
4.The US government opposed the coup? McCain met with the opposition leaders. Nuland was out and about handing out treats to the protestors.</p>
<p><i>&#8220;The extent of the Obama administration’s meddling in Ukraine’s politics was breathtaking. Russian intelligence intercepted and leaked to the international media a Nuland telephone call in which she and U.S. ambassador to Ukraine Geoffey Pyatt discussed in detail their preferences for specific personnel in a post??Yanukovych government. The U.S?favored candidates included Arseniy Yatsenyuk, the man who became prime minister once Yanukovych was ousted from power. During the telephone call, Nuland stated enthusiastically that “Yats is the guy” who would do the best job.&#8221;</p>
<p>&#8220;Nuland and Pyatt were engaged in such planning at a time when Yanukovych was still Ukraine’s lawful president. It was startling to have diplomatic representatives of a foreign country—and a country that routinely touts the need to respect democratic processes and the sovereignty of other nations—to be scheming about removing an elected government and replacing it with officials meriting U.S. approval.&#8221;</p>
<p>&#8220;Washington’s conduct not only constituted meddling, it bordered on micromanagement.&#8221;</i></p>
<p><a href="https://www.cato.org/commentary/americas-ukraine-hypocrisy" rel="nofollow ugc">https://www.cato.org/commentary/americas-ukraine-hypocrisy</a></p>
<p>6. Yushchenko was elected in 2004 despite the poisoning (or because of it&#8211; sympathy). Even though he talked about Ukraine&#8217;s European connection, he was defeated in 2010 by Yanokovych, probably by the reform platform he ran on. Yushchenko&#8217;s platform included &#8220;Restore financial stability in the country by implementing the International Monetary Fund reforms and a balanced budget&#8221;&#8211; which in other words, austerity. Nothing like telling the truth to get you fired.<br />
7. 8. He was overthrown. He left for Crimea, then Russia, fearing he would be assassinated. &#8220;&#8230;there were no articles of impeachment brought against Yanukovych. Instead, the Verkhovna Rada voted on February 22, 2014 to <i>&#8220;remove Viktor Yanukovych from the post of president of Ukraine&#8221; on the grounds that he was unable to fulfill his duties, and to hold early presidential elections on May 25.&#8221;</i> &#8211; Wikipedia<br />
9. He didn&#8217;t agree to the terms for joining the EU because of the austerity program the country would have to endure to become a member. In 2013 Ukraine&#8217;s per capita GDP was just over $4,000. Greece, one of the poorer EU member&#8217;s per capita GDP was $21,000 at the same time. It would have been suicide (as opposed to assassination).<br />
10. <i>&#8220;Under such alliance, all future candidates for government office would have to be approved by Russia before appearing on the ballot.&#8221;</i> mkent<br />
I&#8217;m unfamiliar with this. Please provide a link to the terms of the agreement. </p>
<p>Everything about what is happening in Ukraine points to the terribly divided nature of Ukraine. There is no chance Ukraine will ever regain control of Crimea or the Donbas region, especially given the influence by the ultra-nationalists.<br />
The war won&#8217;t last another year. Rather than destroy Ukraine in a senseless attempt to defang Russia, we should encourage/force Ukraine to accept a settlement. It&#8217;s only our money that is allowing Russia to destroy Ukraine.</p>
<p>Those three areas are majority/near majority ethnic Russian.</p>
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		<title>
		By: mkent		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2022/11/23/open-thread-11-23-22/#comment-2655166</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[mkent]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Nov 2022 08:56:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.thenewneo.com/?p=122246#comment-2655166</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[om: It seems some people can&#039;t see the forest for the saplings.  On the one side we have genocide.  On the other we have improper tattoos.  Um....yeah.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>om: It seems some people can&#8217;t see the forest for the saplings.  On the one side we have genocide.  On the other we have improper tattoos.  Um&#8230;.yeah.</p>
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		<title>
		By: om		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2022/11/23/open-thread-11-23-22/#comment-2655160</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[om]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Nov 2022 05:35:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.thenewneo.com/?p=122246#comment-2655160</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[mkent:

Isn&#039;t it curious that Brian E is fixated on Yanukovych and his ouster in 2014.  

Brian E hasn&#039;t said squat or acknowledged Roosian seizure of Crimea in 2014.  Roosia wants.

Yanukovych was the Governor of Donetsk Oblast from 1997 to 2002.  I would wonder where the idea of the separatist Donetsk region came from, eh, Brian E?  Its is convienient that he is a kept Putin minion in Moscow since 2014? Da!

Roosian propaganda works; Nazis, Satanists, CIA, NATO.  Hook, line, and sinker. Flopping on the deck.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>mkent:</p>
<p>Isn&#8217;t it curious that Brian E is fixated on Yanukovych and his ouster in 2014.  </p>
<p>Brian E hasn&#8217;t said squat or acknowledged Roosian seizure of Crimea in 2014.  Roosia wants.</p>
<p>Yanukovych was the Governor of Donetsk Oblast from 1997 to 2002.  I would wonder where the idea of the separatist Donetsk region came from, eh, Brian E?  Its is convienient that he is a kept Putin minion in Moscow since 2014? Da!</p>
<p>Roosian propaganda works; Nazis, Satanists, CIA, NATO.  Hook, line, and sinker. Flopping on the deck.</p>
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		<title>
		By: mkent		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2022/11/23/open-thread-11-23-22/#comment-2655155</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[mkent]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Nov 2022 04:25:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.thenewneo.com/?p=122246#comment-2655155</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[&lt;i&gt;&quot;I’ve read these ultra-nationalist groups are essentially dictating policy of the Ukranian government...&quot;&lt;/i&gt;

In light of the news that tens of thousands of civilians are being bombed, raped, kidnapped, tortured, and killed, your real concern is that ultra-nationalist groups are dictating policy?  You are a concern troll.

&lt;i&gt;&quot;Were these groups responsible for preventing the Minsk agreement from being implemented, which could have ended the eastern civil war?&quot;&lt;/i&gt;

There is no eastern civil war.  Ukraine was *invaded* by the sovereign state of Russia.

&lt;i&gt;&quot;I’m concerned because these groups were involved in the 2014 coup...&quot;&lt;/i&gt;

Ukrainian nationalists *opposed* the 2014 coup but were quickly overwhelmed by Russian naval infantry.

&lt;i&gt;&quot;...with the encouragement of the US government...&quot;&lt;/i&gt;

The U. S. government opposed the 2014 coup but was not willing to go to war against Russia to overturn it.

&lt;i&gt;&quot;...where a duly elected president of Ukraine, Victor Yanukovych...&quot;&lt;/i&gt;

Who had his election opponent poisoned with dioxin.  The would-be assassins, once identified, fled the country and now live in Moscow in luxury apartments owned by the Russian government.

&lt;i&gt;&quot;...was overthrown...&quot;&lt;/i&gt;

Fled the country to live in Moscow in a luxury apartment owned by the Russian government.

&lt;i&gt;&quot;He was never impeached or legally removed from office...&quot;&lt;/i&gt;

He was impeached by the Ukrainian parliament by a 9-1 vote, tried by the Ukrainian Supreme Court, convicted, and removed from office.

&lt;i&gt;&quot;...nor did he try and impose a dictatorial regime.&quot;&lt;/i&gt;

Instead of implementing the EU / Ukraine Accession Agreement that had passed the Ukrainian parliament by a 10-1 margin, he instead tore up that agreement and announced that Ukraine would join the Eurasian Alliance with Russia.  Under such alliance, all future candidates for government office would have to be approved by Russia before appearing on the ballot.

You&#039;re so concerned about things that didn&#039;t happen.  Perhaps show a little concern for the genocide that actually is.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>&#8220;I’ve read these ultra-nationalist groups are essentially dictating policy of the Ukranian government&#8230;&#8221;</i></p>
<p>In light of the news that tens of thousands of civilians are being bombed, raped, kidnapped, tortured, and killed, your real concern is that ultra-nationalist groups are dictating policy?  You are a concern troll.</p>
<p><i>&#8220;Were these groups responsible for preventing the Minsk agreement from being implemented, which could have ended the eastern civil war?&#8221;</i></p>
<p>There is no eastern civil war.  Ukraine was *invaded* by the sovereign state of Russia.</p>
<p><i>&#8220;I’m concerned because these groups were involved in the 2014 coup&#8230;&#8221;</i></p>
<p>Ukrainian nationalists *opposed* the 2014 coup but were quickly overwhelmed by Russian naval infantry.</p>
<p><i>&#8220;&#8230;with the encouragement of the US government&#8230;&#8221;</i></p>
<p>The U. S. government opposed the 2014 coup but was not willing to go to war against Russia to overturn it.</p>
<p><i>&#8220;&#8230;where a duly elected president of Ukraine, Victor Yanukovych&#8230;&#8221;</i></p>
<p>Who had his election opponent poisoned with dioxin.  The would-be assassins, once identified, fled the country and now live in Moscow in luxury apartments owned by the Russian government.</p>
<p><i>&#8220;&#8230;was overthrown&#8230;&#8221;</i></p>
<p>Fled the country to live in Moscow in a luxury apartment owned by the Russian government.</p>
<p><i>&#8220;He was never impeached or legally removed from office&#8230;&#8221;</i></p>
<p>He was impeached by the Ukrainian parliament by a 9-1 vote, tried by the Ukrainian Supreme Court, convicted, and removed from office.</p>
<p><i>&#8220;&#8230;nor did he try and impose a dictatorial regime.&#8221;</i></p>
<p>Instead of implementing the EU / Ukraine Accession Agreement that had passed the Ukrainian parliament by a 10-1 margin, he instead tore up that agreement and announced that Ukraine would join the Eurasian Alliance with Russia.  Under such alliance, all future candidates for government office would have to be approved by Russia before appearing on the ballot.</p>
<p>You&#8217;re so concerned about things that didn&#8217;t happen.  Perhaps show a little concern for the genocide that actually is.</p>
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		<title>
		By: om		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2022/11/23/open-thread-11-23-22/#comment-2655154</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[om]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Nov 2022 04:25:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.thenewneo.com/?p=122246#comment-2655154</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Brian E:

Just consider using neo&#039;s search function and looking into Turtler&#039;s comments regarding Yanukovych as well as the Minsk agreement.

You could do that and get your answers.  As neo said to you earlier, it&#039;s all there.  

Playing dumb isn&#039;t a good act.  Here is a hint (Roosian propaganda).

Do your homework.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Brian E:</p>
<p>Just consider using neo&#8217;s search function and looking into Turtler&#8217;s comments regarding Yanukovych as well as the Minsk agreement.</p>
<p>You could do that and get your answers.  As neo said to you earlier, it&#8217;s all there.  </p>
<p>Playing dumb isn&#8217;t a good act.  Here is a hint (Roosian propaganda).</p>
<p>Do your homework.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Brian E		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2022/11/23/open-thread-11-23-22/#comment-2655151</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Brian E]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Nov 2022 03:49:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.thenewneo.com/?p=122246#comment-2655151</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[mkent,
The news is full of Russian atrocities.

I&#039;m interested in finding out who the country we&#039;re sending potentially hundreds of billions of dollars is. That&#039;s harder to find. 

I&#039;ve read these ultra-nationalist groups are essentially dictating policy of the Ukranian government through coercion. Real or propaganda?  Were these groups responsible for preventing the Minsk agreement from being implemented, which could have ended the eastern civil war?

I&#039;m concerned because these groups were involved in the 2014 coup, with the encouragement of the US government, where a duly elected president of Ukraine, Victor Yanukovych was overthrown. Whether or not he was a thug/Russian dupe he was elected. He was never impeached or legally removed from office, nor did he try and impose a dictatorial regime. True or Russian propaganda?]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>mkent,<br />
The news is full of Russian atrocities.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m interested in finding out who the country we&#8217;re sending potentially hundreds of billions of dollars is. That&#8217;s harder to find. </p>
<p>I&#8217;ve read these ultra-nationalist groups are essentially dictating policy of the Ukranian government through coercion. Real or propaganda?  Were these groups responsible for preventing the Minsk agreement from being implemented, which could have ended the eastern civil war?</p>
<p>I&#8217;m concerned because these groups were involved in the 2014 coup, with the encouragement of the US government, where a duly elected president of Ukraine, Victor Yanukovych was overthrown. Whether or not he was a thug/Russian dupe he was elected. He was never impeached or legally removed from office, nor did he try and impose a dictatorial regime. True or Russian propaganda?</p>
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		<title>
		By: om		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2022/11/23/open-thread-11-23-22/#comment-2655145</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[om]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Nov 2022 03:14:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.thenewneo.com/?p=122246#comment-2655145</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[mkent:

To &quot;Brian E&quot; it seems all those things are &quot;incidential&quot; or to be ignored.  Because Azov, or something.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>mkent:</p>
<p>To &#8220;Brian E&#8221; it seems all those things are &#8220;incidential&#8221; or to be ignored.  Because Azov, or something.</p>
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		<title>
		By: mkent		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2022/11/23/open-thread-11-23-22/#comment-2655144</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[mkent]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Nov 2022 02:55:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.thenewneo.com/?p=122246#comment-2655144</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[&lt;i&gt;&quot;I thought it was just Russian propaganda to consistently refer to the Nazism in Ukraine– just the long enmity between Nazi socialism and Soviet communism– but apparently there is some undercurrent of Nazism in Ukraine politics.&quot;&lt;/i&gt;

Oh, good grief, Brian.

Ukraine didn&#039;t invade its sovereign neighbor.  Russia did.  Ukraine didn&#039;t annex part of its neighbor&#039;s territory.  Russia did.  Ukraine didn&#039;t target civilian apartment complexes, shopping malls, food storage facilities, water treatment plants, and sewage treatment plants.  Russia did.  Ukraine didn&#039;t commit mass rape, run torture chambers, execute civilians, and produce mass graves in occupied territories.  Russia did.  Ukraine isn&#039;t targeting its neighbor&#039;s electrical power and heat generation plants in a stated effort to freeze millions of civilians to death this winter.  Russia is.

Ukraine didn&#039;t announce that the intent of its special military operation is the destruction of its neighbor&#039;s country and culture.  Russia did.  Ukraine isn&#039;t running &quot;filtration camps&quot; where civilians are taken by the thousands to be &quot;re-educated&quot; and, if they resist, &quot;eliminated.&quot;  Russia is.  Ukraine isn&#039;t removing tens of thousands of its neighbor&#039;s children from their homes and taking them to Russia for adoption so they grow up believing they are Russian and hating their own culture.  Russia is.

Ukraine isn&#039;t acting like the Nazis did.  Russia is.

In light of all of the above, your focus on Ukrainian &quot;Nazism&quot; and not Russian genocide is silly and is almost a textbook example of a concern troll.  I&#039;ll leave it to you to demonstrate whether that label is accurate.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>&#8220;I thought it was just Russian propaganda to consistently refer to the Nazism in Ukraine– just the long enmity between Nazi socialism and Soviet communism– but apparently there is some undercurrent of Nazism in Ukraine politics.&#8221;</i></p>
<p>Oh, good grief, Brian.</p>
<p>Ukraine didn&#8217;t invade its sovereign neighbor.  Russia did.  Ukraine didn&#8217;t annex part of its neighbor&#8217;s territory.  Russia did.  Ukraine didn&#8217;t target civilian apartment complexes, shopping malls, food storage facilities, water treatment plants, and sewage treatment plants.  Russia did.  Ukraine didn&#8217;t commit mass rape, run torture chambers, execute civilians, and produce mass graves in occupied territories.  Russia did.  Ukraine isn&#8217;t targeting its neighbor&#8217;s electrical power and heat generation plants in a stated effort to freeze millions of civilians to death this winter.  Russia is.</p>
<p>Ukraine didn&#8217;t announce that the intent of its special military operation is the destruction of its neighbor&#8217;s country and culture.  Russia did.  Ukraine isn&#8217;t running &#8220;filtration camps&#8221; where civilians are taken by the thousands to be &#8220;re-educated&#8221; and, if they resist, &#8220;eliminated.&#8221;  Russia is.  Ukraine isn&#8217;t removing tens of thousands of its neighbor&#8217;s children from their homes and taking them to Russia for adoption so they grow up believing they are Russian and hating their own culture.  Russia is.</p>
<p>Ukraine isn&#8217;t acting like the Nazis did.  Russia is.</p>
<p>In light of all of the above, your focus on Ukrainian &#8220;Nazism&#8221; and not Russian genocide is silly and is almost a textbook example of a concern troll.  I&#8217;ll leave it to you to demonstrate whether that label is accurate.</p>
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		<title>
		By: om		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2022/11/23/open-thread-11-23-22/#comment-2655135</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[om]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Nov 2022 01:51:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.thenewneo.com/?p=122246#comment-2655135</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[All true,  and the connection to Vlad and Ukraine is? 

Look, a shark jumps in the Black Sea!]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>All true,  and the connection to Vlad and Ukraine is? </p>
<p>Look, a shark jumps in the Black Sea!</p>
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		<title>
		By: miguel cervantes		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2022/11/23/open-thread-11-23-22/#comment-2655124</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[miguel cervantes]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Nov 2022 23:59:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.thenewneo.com/?p=122246#comment-2655124</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[we are concerned with this country, because it&#039;s being torn down and defecated on, 5 million invaders have come in thanks to mayorkas and garland, we were humiliated on the afghan plain, in a way that hasn&#039;t happened in probably 900 years,]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>we are concerned with this country, because it&#8217;s being torn down and defecated on, 5 million invaders have come in thanks to mayorkas and garland, we were humiliated on the afghan plain, in a way that hasn&#8217;t happened in probably 900 years,</p>
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