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	Comments on: Guaranteed income programs are moving right along	</title>
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	<description>A blog about political change, among other things</description>
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		<title>
		By: Art Deco		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2022/09/23/guaranteed-income-programs-are-moving-right-along/#comment-2644540</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Art Deco]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 Sep 2022 14:02:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.thenewneo.com/?p=120541#comment-2644540</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[&lt;i&gt;The only way I can see to improve areas like current downstate Illinois is a basic income. I don’t agree with Andrew Yang on all his examples, but I think this would work.&lt;/i&gt;

Would work toward what end?  

Courtesy the Bureau of Labor Statistics and the Census Bureau, you can calculate the ratio of employed persons to persons over the age of 16 for the following commuter belts.   The national mean is 0.60.  

champaign: 0.648
springfield: 0.645
st louis: 0.633
davenport: 0.622
kankakee: 0.601
rockford: 0.584
cape girardeau: 0.578
peoria: 0.522
carbondale-marion: 0.519


About 2.4% of the national population were SSI recipients at the end of 2020.  In Illinois, the mean was 2.0%.  Counties exceeding the national mean were as follows:

Alexander: 5.2%
Pulaski: 4.4%
Saline: 4.3%
Gallatin: 4%
Hardin: 4%
Vermilion: 3.4%
Union: 3.4%
Franklin: 3.3%
Marion: 3.3%
Massac: 3.2%
Macon: 3%
White: 2.9%
Jackson: 2.9%
St. Clair: 2.8%
Greene: 2.8%
Peoria: 2.7%
Cook: 2.7%
Richland: 2.6%
Winnebago: 2.6%
Knox: 2.5%
Morgan: 2.5%



I&#039;m seeing room for improvement, not some ghastly social crisis.  And I&#039;m not seeing why you&#039;d advocate policies which discourage outmigration.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>The only way I can see to improve areas like current downstate Illinois is a basic income. I don’t agree with Andrew Yang on all his examples, but I think this would work.</i></p>
<p>Would work toward what end?  </p>
<p>Courtesy the Bureau of Labor Statistics and the Census Bureau, you can calculate the ratio of employed persons to persons over the age of 16 for the following commuter belts.   The national mean is 0.60.  </p>
<p>champaign: 0.648<br />
springfield: 0.645<br />
st louis: 0.633<br />
davenport: 0.622<br />
kankakee: 0.601<br />
rockford: 0.584<br />
cape girardeau: 0.578<br />
peoria: 0.522<br />
carbondale-marion: 0.519</p>
<p>About 2.4% of the national population were SSI recipients at the end of 2020.  In Illinois, the mean was 2.0%.  Counties exceeding the national mean were as follows:</p>
<p>Alexander: 5.2%<br />
Pulaski: 4.4%<br />
Saline: 4.3%<br />
Gallatin: 4%<br />
Hardin: 4%<br />
Vermilion: 3.4%<br />
Union: 3.4%<br />
Franklin: 3.3%<br />
Marion: 3.3%<br />
Massac: 3.2%<br />
Macon: 3%<br />
White: 2.9%<br />
Jackson: 2.9%<br />
St. Clair: 2.8%<br />
Greene: 2.8%<br />
Peoria: 2.7%<br />
Cook: 2.7%<br />
Richland: 2.6%<br />
Winnebago: 2.6%<br />
Knox: 2.5%<br />
Morgan: 2.5%</p>
<p>I&#8217;m seeing room for improvement, not some ghastly social crisis.  And I&#8217;m not seeing why you&#8217;d advocate policies which discourage outmigration.</p>
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		<title>
		By: M Smith		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2022/09/23/guaranteed-income-programs-are-moving-right-along/#comment-2644535</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[M Smith]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 Sep 2022 12:43:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.thenewneo.com/?p=120541#comment-2644535</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[The Larry Summers quote provides a lot to think about.  Maybe the problem is that we have a society that is devoted to hedonism but that still demands work and life discipline.  We kick aside beliefs, traditions and restraints and expect people to have an individualistic inner drive, but for many people that isn&#039;t nourished by their environment, so it doesn&#039;t develop. That there are such pronounced differences between winners and losers, and that the winners often don&#039;t look too happy either doesn&#039;t encourage such development in some people (or, to play devil&#039;s advocate, perhaps some people demand too much support and what earlier generations might have called coddling).

Or maybe the problem is that our economy, society, and culture tell large numbers of people that they aren&#039;t needed. Not content with hollowing out our inner cities, we do the same for large stretches of the country. Europe has the same problems as America, but the problems aren&#039;t as serious, perhaps because of economic necessity, or intact social structures, or cultural identity, or ethnic homogeneity, or religious belief, or political and civic organizations, or government policies that restrain or offset the dynamic.

From what I&#039;ve seen of Larry Summers (a lot of it comes from the movie the &lt;i&gt;Social Network&lt;/i&gt;), I see him more as part of the problem, rather than as part of the solution.  Harvard and MIT aren&#039;t going to provide meaning to most people&#039;s lives.  More likely they do the opposite, to the surrounding society if not to insiders.  It&#039;s also not surprising that an economist from a family of economists has trouble with things non-economic.  I also doubt the answer is political in any right/left sense.  Different societies have different ways of generating meaning. We don&#039;t seem to be doing that good at any of them.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Larry Summers quote provides a lot to think about.  Maybe the problem is that we have a society that is devoted to hedonism but that still demands work and life discipline.  We kick aside beliefs, traditions and restraints and expect people to have an individualistic inner drive, but for many people that isn&#8217;t nourished by their environment, so it doesn&#8217;t develop. That there are such pronounced differences between winners and losers, and that the winners often don&#8217;t look too happy either doesn&#8217;t encourage such development in some people (or, to play devil&#8217;s advocate, perhaps some people demand too much support and what earlier generations might have called coddling).</p>
<p>Or maybe the problem is that our economy, society, and culture tell large numbers of people that they aren&#8217;t needed. Not content with hollowing out our inner cities, we do the same for large stretches of the country. Europe has the same problems as America, but the problems aren&#8217;t as serious, perhaps because of economic necessity, or intact social structures, or cultural identity, or ethnic homogeneity, or religious belief, or political and civic organizations, or government policies that restrain or offset the dynamic.</p>
<p>From what I&#8217;ve seen of Larry Summers (a lot of it comes from the movie the <i>Social Network</i>), I see him more as part of the problem, rather than as part of the solution.  Harvard and MIT aren&#8217;t going to provide meaning to most people&#8217;s lives.  More likely they do the opposite, to the surrounding society if not to insiders.  It&#8217;s also not surprising that an economist from a family of economists has trouble with things non-economic.  I also doubt the answer is political in any right/left sense.  Different societies have different ways of generating meaning. We don&#8217;t seem to be doing that good at any of them.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Dick Illyes		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2022/09/23/guaranteed-income-programs-are-moving-right-along/#comment-2644531</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Dick Illyes]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 Sep 2022 11:09:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.thenewneo.com/?p=120541#comment-2644531</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[IMHO humans can always find something to do for one another that they are willing to pay for.  Those who want to work will work, those who prefer slack will not work.  What we have now is an incredible mess of programs which have been gradually expanded to provide money to anyone who can come up with some disability claim.  

I retired back to the family farm in 2005 and ran a plant nursery for several years in downstate Illinois, an area where unemployment and drug addiction were so bad it was hard to believe it existed in the US.  Schools had failed and a huge underclass was basically illiterate.  The local prison was full of illiterate drug pushers.  The lower class people who were living a somewhat normal life were almost all on some sort of disability for claims that would never have passed during my youth in the 1950&#039;s and 1960&#039;s.  The others were trapped by illiteracy and lack of funds to travel to find work.  Their hopelessness is something I never expected to see in the US.

Illinois has been destroyed by its Blue Cities and by sending its small factories offshore.  During my youth most of my friends parents were factory workers and lived happy middle class lives.  They owned their homes, had cars and boats and took vacations.  Schools produced literate graduates.  

I moved to rural Texas south of Houston in 2014.  It is a paradise compared to downstate Illinois.  It is very much like my downstate Illinois was in the 1950&#039;s and 1960&#039;s.  Inner city Houston is a Blue cesspool of Democrat corruption and mismanagement, surrounded by Red suburbs of middle class peace and prosperity.  

The only way I can see to improve areas like current downstate Illinois is a basic income.  I don&#039;t agree with Andrew Yang on all his examples, but I think this would work.  

Also needed is a total abandonment of the K-12 public school monopoly and replacement with individual student educational endowments.  An amazingly large numbers of high school graduates struggle to read.  Homeschoolers should be paid for successful results from individual student educational endowments.  Homeschooling pods would see explosive growth and provide adequate coverage, and this reform could happen almost instantly.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>IMHO humans can always find something to do for one another that they are willing to pay for.  Those who want to work will work, those who prefer slack will not work.  What we have now is an incredible mess of programs which have been gradually expanded to provide money to anyone who can come up with some disability claim.  </p>
<p>I retired back to the family farm in 2005 and ran a plant nursery for several years in downstate Illinois, an area where unemployment and drug addiction were so bad it was hard to believe it existed in the US.  Schools had failed and a huge underclass was basically illiterate.  The local prison was full of illiterate drug pushers.  The lower class people who were living a somewhat normal life were almost all on some sort of disability for claims that would never have passed during my youth in the 1950&#8217;s and 1960&#8217;s.  The others were trapped by illiteracy and lack of funds to travel to find work.  Their hopelessness is something I never expected to see in the US.</p>
<p>Illinois has been destroyed by its Blue Cities and by sending its small factories offshore.  During my youth most of my friends parents were factory workers and lived happy middle class lives.  They owned their homes, had cars and boats and took vacations.  Schools produced literate graduates.  </p>
<p>I moved to rural Texas south of Houston in 2014.  It is a paradise compared to downstate Illinois.  It is very much like my downstate Illinois was in the 1950&#8217;s and 1960&#8217;s.  Inner city Houston is a Blue cesspool of Democrat corruption and mismanagement, surrounded by Red suburbs of middle class peace and prosperity.  </p>
<p>The only way I can see to improve areas like current downstate Illinois is a basic income.  I don&#8217;t agree with Andrew Yang on all his examples, but I think this would work.  </p>
<p>Also needed is a total abandonment of the K-12 public school monopoly and replacement with individual student educational endowments.  An amazingly large numbers of high school graduates struggle to read.  Homeschoolers should be paid for successful results from individual student educational endowments.  Homeschooling pods would see explosive growth and provide adequate coverage, and this reform could happen almost instantly.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Marv		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2022/09/23/guaranteed-income-programs-are-moving-right-along/#comment-2644530</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Marv]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 Sep 2022 11:01:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.thenewneo.com/?p=120541#comment-2644530</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Add Austin to the list.  Mayor Adler hates to be last implementing a bad idea. 
We are just this month starting a pilot program of giving $1000/month to 135 selected people. For 18 months, IIRC.
No strings attached. And no embarrassing reporting of how it&#039;s going from receivers nor the mayor or city council.  They melt at even a whiff of accountability, here. 
Already planning to expand the program,
Plant your money trees, people!!]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Add Austin to the list.  Mayor Adler hates to be last implementing a bad idea.<br />
We are just this month starting a pilot program of giving $1000/month to 135 selected people. For 18 months, IIRC.<br />
No strings attached. And no embarrassing reporting of how it&#8217;s going from receivers nor the mayor or city council.  They melt at even a whiff of accountability, here.<br />
Already planning to expand the program,<br />
Plant your money trees, people!!</p>
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		<title>
		By: Jimmy		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2022/09/23/guaranteed-income-programs-are-moving-right-along/#comment-2644511</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jimmy]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 Sep 2022 04:40:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.thenewneo.com/?p=120541#comment-2644511</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[If we give low-skilled people a guaranteed income because we think low-skilled jobs will disappear, those jobs will indeed disappear. But it will be because of the guaranteed income. No one will take those jobs at wages employers would be willing to pay.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If we give low-skilled people a guaranteed income because we think low-skilled jobs will disappear, those jobs will indeed disappear. But it will be because of the guaranteed income. No one will take those jobs at wages employers would be willing to pay.</p>
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		<title>
		By: M Smith		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2022/09/23/guaranteed-income-programs-are-moving-right-along/#comment-2644473</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[M Smith]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 Sep 2022 00:39:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.thenewneo.com/?p=120541#comment-2644473</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Kausfiles is pretty good on the related topic of the Democrats&#039; welfare schemes (also on immigration).  Unfortunately, it takes a while for bad ideas to die -- and even then they are never entirely dead and incapable of returning.

&lt;i&gt;“There is some social phenomenon which I suspect explains non work, non marriage, deaths of despair, general alienation and, I suspect, the rise of reactionary populism. It should be a major task of social science to understand it.”&lt;/i&gt;

The problem may be tied to our society&#039;s prosperity, and that makes problem and solution hard to separate.

I&#039;m not entirely sure what &quot;reactionary populism&quot; is supposed to mean, but I wouldn&#039;t assume that it is part of the problem, rather than part of the solution.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kausfiles is pretty good on the related topic of the Democrats&#8217; welfare schemes (also on immigration).  Unfortunately, it takes a while for bad ideas to die &#8212; and even then they are never entirely dead and incapable of returning.</p>
<p><i>“There is some social phenomenon which I suspect explains non work, non marriage, deaths of despair, general alienation and, I suspect, the rise of reactionary populism. It should be a major task of social science to understand it.”</i></p>
<p>The problem may be tied to our society&#8217;s prosperity, and that makes problem and solution hard to separate.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not entirely sure what &#8220;reactionary populism&#8221; is supposed to mean, but I wouldn&#8217;t assume that it is part of the problem, rather than part of the solution.</p>
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		<title>
		By: JohnTyler		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2022/09/23/guaranteed-income-programs-are-moving-right-along/#comment-2644469</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[JohnTyler]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 Sep 2022 00:30:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.thenewneo.com/?p=120541#comment-2644469</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Just a few years ago a guaranteed income program was implemented in Finland. It lasted only a few years and the program was ceased. 
It did not produce the desired results. 
The hope was that the free money would allow folks  to concentrate on getting back on their feet without having to worry about their next rent payment or next meal. 

In San Francisco, the prevailing wisdom of those responsible for &quot;handling&quot; the homeless problem there actually believe that homelessness CAUSES drug addiction. So there is an effort there to find homes for those living on the street, which, in the view of the SF &quot;experts&quot; should cure the drug problem. 
At one time, you would expect to read this sort of stuff in MAD Magazine. 

Here&#039;s what I think; if each  homeless person was given  3 million $$$ in cash, tax free, most of them would spend it on drugs, trash their new living quarters and be back on the street within a year or so. 
The poverty experts in SF would then say, &quot;well, we should have given each homeless person 5 million $$$$. 

In &quot;Life At The Bottom,&quot; by Theodore Dalrymple, he studied the native born, white underclass in England. By omitting blacks, Indians, Pakistanis, and other immigrant groups from his study, he eliminated the variables of ethnicity and race.
In short, he found the white underclass there suffered from the same social pathologies prevalent in the inner cities of the USA; drug addiction, broken families, high crime rates, poorly educated students, etc. 
Government policies to help the poor never worked as intended.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just a few years ago a guaranteed income program was implemented in Finland. It lasted only a few years and the program was ceased.<br />
It did not produce the desired results.<br />
The hope was that the free money would allow folks  to concentrate on getting back on their feet without having to worry about their next rent payment or next meal. </p>
<p>In San Francisco, the prevailing wisdom of those responsible for &#8220;handling&#8221; the homeless problem there actually believe that homelessness CAUSES drug addiction. So there is an effort there to find homes for those living on the street, which, in the view of the SF &#8220;experts&#8221; should cure the drug problem.<br />
At one time, you would expect to read this sort of stuff in MAD Magazine. </p>
<p>Here&#8217;s what I think; if each  homeless person was given  3 million $$$ in cash, tax free, most of them would spend it on drugs, trash their new living quarters and be back on the street within a year or so.<br />
The poverty experts in SF would then say, &#8220;well, we should have given each homeless person 5 million $$$$. </p>
<p>In &#8220;Life At The Bottom,&#8221; by Theodore Dalrymple, he studied the native born, white underclass in England. By omitting blacks, Indians, Pakistanis, and other immigrant groups from his study, he eliminated the variables of ethnicity and race.<br />
In short, he found the white underclass there suffered from the same social pathologies prevalent in the inner cities of the USA; drug addiction, broken families, high crime rates, poorly educated students, etc.<br />
Government policies to help the poor never worked as intended.</p>
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		<title>
		By: David Foster		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2022/09/23/guaranteed-income-programs-are-moving-right-along/#comment-2644461</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[David Foster]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Sep 2022 23:49:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.thenewneo.com/?p=120541#comment-2644461</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[From Larry Summers, at Twitter:

&quot;Most of those not working say they don’t want to work; there are two vacancies for every unemployed person; all countries have structural change but the US stands out. Demand side economics won’t fix this problem.&quot;

&quot;There is some social phenomenon which I suspect explains non work, non marriage, deaths of despair, general alienation and, I suspect, the rise of reactionary populism. It should be a major task of social science to understand it.&quot;

https://twitter.com/LHSummers/status/1572433427365826565]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>From Larry Summers, at Twitter:</p>
<p>&#8220;Most of those not working say they don’t want to work; there are two vacancies for every unemployed person; all countries have structural change but the US stands out. Demand side economics won’t fix this problem.&#8221;</p>
<p>&#8220;There is some social phenomenon which I suspect explains non work, non marriage, deaths of despair, general alienation and, I suspect, the rise of reactionary populism. It should be a major task of social science to understand it.&#8221;</p>
<p><a href="https://twitter.com/LHSummers/status/1572433427365826565" rel="nofollow ugc">https://twitter.com/LHSummers/status/1572433427365826565</a></p>
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		<title>
		By: Geoffrey Britain		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2022/09/23/guaranteed-income-programs-are-moving-right-along/#comment-2644455</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Geoffrey Britain]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Sep 2022 22:49:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.thenewneo.com/?p=120541#comment-2644455</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[&lt;i&gt;&quot;Most of the programs are funded by &lt;b&gt;taxpayer dollars&lt;/b&gt; and are generally described as “universal basic income” and “guaranteed income,”&lt;/i&gt; [my emphasis] Tom Gantert and Brett Rowland 

Ah... the old; &lt;i&gt;&quot;From each according to their ability&lt;/i&gt; (income &#038; assets) &lt;i&gt; to each according to their need.&quot;&lt;/i&gt;]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>&#8220;Most of the programs are funded by <b>taxpayer dollars</b> and are generally described as “universal basic income” and “guaranteed income,”</i> [my emphasis] Tom Gantert and Brett Rowland </p>
<p>Ah&#8230; the old; <i>&#8220;From each according to their ability</i> (income &amp; assets) <i> to each according to their need.&#8221;</i></p>
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		<title>
		By: JJ		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2022/09/23/guaranteed-income-programs-are-moving-right-along/#comment-2644454</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[JJ]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Sep 2022 22:46:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.thenewneo.com/?p=120541#comment-2644454</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Had such a program been in effect when I was juststarti9ng out in adult life, I would have followed a much different path in life. At eighteen I dreamed of a life working as a ski instructor in the winter and a seasonal park ranger in the summer.  Fortunately, I was aware that such an existence would not reliably keep a roof over my head or food in my belly.  I had worked summer jobs every year since I was thirteen.  I knew what work was and I liked earning money, but I wanted to work at something I enjoyed and outdoors.  A guaranteed income would have made it possible. Looking back, I&#039;m glad it wasn&#039;t available. My life has been much more meaningful and worthwhile because I had to work to make my way.

I have encountered a number of slackers over the years. People who pretended to do a job but did as little as humanly possible. These programs are perfect for them. But the moral hazard is that some who aren&#039;t slackers may decide to quit being fleeced by the government and join the slackers on the dole.  Thus, creating a shortage of workers.  Hmm. will machines take up the slack?

Even without a guaranteed income a labor shortage has developed post pandemic.  It seems that many boomers have taken early retirement, some housewives have decided they would rather stay home than work, some young slackers are living on the dole and/or their parents, and many otherwise employable people have fallen into addiction and homelessness.  The result has been a fall in the labor force. Everywhere I go locally, there are help wanted signs. Fast food places are hurting. They&#039;re paying more and getting fewer employees.  I fear a lot of businesses are going to fail as we sink into recession because they can&#039;t stay open.  Then where are the taxes going to come from to pay the guaranteed income?  It&#039;s a terrible idea and always has been.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Had such a program been in effect when I was juststarti9ng out in adult life, I would have followed a much different path in life. At eighteen I dreamed of a life working as a ski instructor in the winter and a seasonal park ranger in the summer.  Fortunately, I was aware that such an existence would not reliably keep a roof over my head or food in my belly.  I had worked summer jobs every year since I was thirteen.  I knew what work was and I liked earning money, but I wanted to work at something I enjoyed and outdoors.  A guaranteed income would have made it possible. Looking back, I&#8217;m glad it wasn&#8217;t available. My life has been much more meaningful and worthwhile because I had to work to make my way.</p>
<p>I have encountered a number of slackers over the years. People who pretended to do a job but did as little as humanly possible. These programs are perfect for them. But the moral hazard is that some who aren&#8217;t slackers may decide to quit being fleeced by the government and join the slackers on the dole.  Thus, creating a shortage of workers.  Hmm. will machines take up the slack?</p>
<p>Even without a guaranteed income a labor shortage has developed post pandemic.  It seems that many boomers have taken early retirement, some housewives have decided they would rather stay home than work, some young slackers are living on the dole and/or their parents, and many otherwise employable people have fallen into addiction and homelessness.  The result has been a fall in the labor force. Everywhere I go locally, there are help wanted signs. Fast food places are hurting. They&#8217;re paying more and getting fewer employees.  I fear a lot of businesses are going to fail as we sink into recession because they can&#8217;t stay open.  Then where are the taxes going to come from to pay the guaranteed income?  It&#8217;s a terrible idea and always has been.</p>
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