Comments on: The death of Patrick Lyoya: does this story sound familiar?

By: Richard Aubrey

Richard Aubrey — Wed, 15 Jun 2022 17:36:18 +0000

Neal. Couple of items wrt tasers. See Jacob Blake, shook off two hits and out fought seven cops. Lots of reports of tasers failing, and occasionally killing.
If the hit doesn’t incapacitate the guy, there are several possibilities; thick clothing, improper set of the prongs, failure to discharge, the guy’s body just doesn’t…freak out or whatever.
But the possibility of failure to discharge allows for the possibility of a charge left in the weapon.
As I said earlier, of the options open to Shurr in hand to hand combat, most are foreclosed. He could have–likely happen in a bar fight–ram Lyoya’s face into the pavement repeatedly until compliance or unconsciousness occur. But he can’t, and imagine the yummy optics.
He is in danger of great bodily harm against a fit man if he restricts his moves to those allowed by the department, unless he elects to let the guy get away. Cops are not infrequently killed by their own guns when in combat with a fit man.
So whether Lyoya had a live taser is one thing; that Shurr might have thought he did is another, and whether it makes an ounce of difference is a third.

By: shadow

shadow — Wed, 15 Jun 2022 01:51:13 +0000

I’m agreeing with Amadeus here. My first reaction when reading the post was, I know we’re tired of hearing “why didn’t you just shoot him in the leg?” but this really does sound like a case where you can argue the officer had the opportunity to do something less likely to cause death than shooting him in the back of the head. Resisting arrest or fleeing from a cop is always a stupid thing to do, but this could have ended much less tragically.

By: Neal

Neal — Tue, 14 Jun 2022 19:26:08 +0000

Police tasers have a max two shot capacity.
Not cool to shoot an unarmed man.

Not my circus or monkeys, just cowboy rules.

By: Amadeus 48

Amadeus 48 — Tue, 14 Jun 2022 19:14:33 +0000

JJ— I fundamentally agree with your points. But if we have a police force that treats everyone like a habitual criminal, none of us are going to like that. The officer didn’t know any of the things that we all know now. Obviously, Lyoya’s judgment was impaired by the alcohol he had drunk. He was driving a car that appeared to be stolen. He ran. He fought the officer. He tried to get the taser. He struggled when he should have submitted. Bystanders yelled at him to stop resisting. But was the officer justified in killing him? That is what a bullet to the back of the head means.
I look forward to hearing what the rules are and how the officer was trained.
As I said above, I think Chauvin got railroaded in Minneapolis. Here in Chicago, when Jason Van Dyke shot Laquon McDonald 16 times, he turned the mayor, the police department, and the city upside down. He testified, and the story he told did not match up well with what anyone could see on the dashboard tape.
We still have a lot to learn about what Schurr thought was going on. I am with Neo in her criticism of Crump. But I really wonder about this one.

By: Art Deco

Art Deco — Tue, 14 Jun 2022 19:05:44 +0000

We have ‘three strikes’ laws because state legislators are too dull to compose proper sentencing formulae. It shouldn’t be too difficult to do so, but it was too difficult for them.

I note that New York was among the most successful states in suppressing crime. While increases in prison capacity were part of the mix, politicians were more circumspect than other states in this respect and concentrated on increasing police manpower, improving time on task, and improving deployment patterns and tactics.

By: Amadeus 48

Amadeus 48 — Tue, 14 Jun 2022 18:53:47 +0000

Owen—
Thanks. When you lay it out like that, it surely highlights the tactical strangeness of these interactions. If Lyoya was pounding the officer’s head on the pavement (like Trayvon Martin) we could all see that deadly force would be justified. If Lyoya had whipped out a glock, you could see it. If Lyoya had the taser in hand and was threatening the officer with it, yes. If Lyoya whipped out a knife like the guy in Racine, yes. But you can see that they were wrestling as the officer was trying to detain Lyoya. The cop was on top. Lyoya was face down on the ground. The cop with no warning whipped out his pistol and shot Lyoya in the back of the head.
Take a look at the tape and see what you think.

By: JJ

JJ — Tue, 14 Jun 2022 18:49:36 +0000

Amadeus 48: “If Lyoya had run away, the cop still had the car and the passenger–there could have been a warrant for Lyoya’s arrest.”

Will Lyoya be easier to arrest the next time? Therre were already arrest warrants out on him. This person was a criminal. We hire tough men and train them to keep this sort of person from victimizing society at large. When you see the video, you are judging the perp as if he was a normal citizen – like your brother or father, husband, or son. You have to ask yourself if anyone you know would violently resist arrest. Lyoya was a criminal who knew he was wanted. He didn’t want to go back to jail. Few criminals do. He took the chance. He lost. Instead of this being a criminal case against the officer, it should be an example to suspects of how not to act when they encounter law enforcement.

The majority of crimes are committed by a small subset of people who are seemingly unreformable. When they are removed to prisons, crime statistics go down and society is much safer. This fact was demonstrated in the 1990s when three strikes laws were put into effect. The so-called new ideas of no cash bail, decriminalizing drugs, releasing prisoners from “too lengthy” sentences, decriminalizing property theft, accusing the police of brutality, and more soft on crime measures have led to the upswing in crime that is underway. Anti-social thugs of all ethnicities are not our friends and deserve no pity.

By: Owen

Owen — Tue, 14 Jun 2022 17:26:09 +0000

Here’s another thought about better tactical management (inspired by Amadeus 48’s remarks at 10:01): What if cops had a standard script (like the Miranda warnings) that they read to every driver or suspect whom they stopped?

“You must obey my commands. If you do not, you may die. Here’s the sequence:
(1) I tell you to do something or stop doing something. If you disobey I may shoot you.
(2) I tell you again to do or stop doing something and I deploy a taser which is designed to PUT YOU ON YOUR ASS. If you continue to disobey I may shoot you.
(3) I tell you again to do or stop doing something and you disobey, or you grab at my taser or gun, I WILL SHOOT YOU DEAD.

Are we clear?”

By: Owen

Owen — Tue, 14 Jun 2022 16:40:25 +0000

Can we apply to this kind of tactical nightmare any lessons acquired from capturing wild animals? What about a weighted net? What about super-sticky (but removable) foam? Some material to immobilize or degrade motion, from a short distance (5-10 feet) away?

I know the Ben Crumps will have a hundred lucrative ripostes –“my client suffered not just PTSD from the foaming but…cancer! We have a sample of exactly 4 people (all retaining me BTW) who will testify to their terrible cancers!” Etc. But still, isn’t it worth a look?

By: Richard Aubrey

Richard Aubrey — Tue, 14 Jun 2022 16:06:15 +0000

amadeus Not all shootings are preceded by warnings. Depends on the time the cop thinks he has.