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	<title>
	Comments on: Is the Russian military somewhat of a Potemkin village?	</title>
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	<link>https://thenewneo.com/2022/03/25/is-the-russian-military-somewhat-of-a-potemkin-village/</link>
	<description>A blog about political change, among other things</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Mon, 04 Nov 2024 02:54:48 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>
		By: ymarsakar		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2022/03/25/is-the-russian-military-somewhat-of-a-potemkin-village/#comment-2769887</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[ymarsakar]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 Nov 2024 02:54:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.thenewneo.com/?p=115755#comment-2769887</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Even making allowances for anti-Russian Resistance propaganda, the relative ineffectiveness of the NATerrorO military is becoming more and more apparent. This is a surprise, to Easern and possibly also to Zelensky.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Even making allowances for anti-Russian Resistance propaganda, the relative ineffectiveness of the NATerrorO military is becoming more and more apparent. This is a surprise, to Easern and possibly also to Zelensky.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Don		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2022/03/25/is-the-russian-military-somewhat-of-a-potemkin-village/#comment-2615514</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Don]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Mar 2022 16:11:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.thenewneo.com/?p=115755#comment-2615514</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[om,

I doubt 6.8 happens. The projects to replace 5.56 look like they are intended so some government contractors make buck more than anything else. 

Much of the claim that 5.56 is inadequate for the ranges in Afghanistan is based on being outranged by insurgents armed with PKMs. Bipod mounted machine guns firing full powered cartridges. The M16 family outrange AK47s and AK74s and other Russian assault rifles, although the base M4 is dated at this point. The problem we had with our equipment is more that the PKM fills a roll that our M240s are too heavy for and M249 has less range. A US PKM copy or an updated light weight M60 would be the better solution.

I don&#039;t believe 6.8 mm SPC improves on 5.56 with respect to performance against body armor. In fact that&#039;s an area where 5.56 does well due to higher velocity. 6.8 is pretty much designed to improve on lethality, particularly when dealing with certain barriers but not body armor or greater range. The marginal improvements it offers doesn&#039;t justify it. Except for elite units in specific situations, maybe.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>om,</p>
<p>I doubt 6.8 happens. The projects to replace 5.56 look like they are intended so some government contractors make buck more than anything else. </p>
<p>Much of the claim that 5.56 is inadequate for the ranges in Afghanistan is based on being outranged by insurgents armed with PKMs. Bipod mounted machine guns firing full powered cartridges. The M16 family outrange AK47s and AK74s and other Russian assault rifles, although the base M4 is dated at this point. The problem we had with our equipment is more that the PKM fills a roll that our M240s are too heavy for and M249 has less range. A US PKM copy or an updated light weight M60 would be the better solution.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t believe 6.8 mm SPC improves on 5.56 with respect to performance against body armor. In fact that&#8217;s an area where 5.56 does well due to higher velocity. 6.8 is pretty much designed to improve on lethality, particularly when dealing with certain barriers but not body armor or greater range. The marginal improvements it offers doesn&#8217;t justify it. Except for elite units in specific situations, maybe.</p>
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		<title>
		By: AesopFan		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2022/03/25/is-the-russian-military-somewhat-of-a-potemkin-village/#comment-2615479</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[AesopFan]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Mar 2022 07:36:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.thenewneo.com/?p=115755#comment-2615479</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[More armor!
More bullets! 
More armor!
More bullets!
More.....]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>More armor!<br />
More bullets!<br />
More armor!<br />
More bullets!<br />
More&#8230;..</p>
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		<title>
		By: om		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2022/03/25/is-the-russian-military-somewhat-of-a-potemkin-village/#comment-2615462</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[om]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Mar 2022 03:04:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.thenewneo.com/?p=115755#comment-2615462</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Don:

IIRC and from online media the DOD is working to replace some parts of the small arms 5.56 and 7.62 menagerie with a 6.8 mm based cartridge system (at least three different designs for the 6.8 mm cartridge system).  Anyway the drivers appear to be deficiencies of the 5.56 regarding range, lethality, and performance against modern body armor used by peers or near peers.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Don:</p>
<p>IIRC and from online media the DOD is working to replace some parts of the small arms 5.56 and 7.62 menagerie with a 6.8 mm based cartridge system (at least three different designs for the 6.8 mm cartridge system).  Anyway the drivers appear to be deficiencies of the 5.56 regarding range, lethality, and performance against modern body armor used by peers or near peers.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Don		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2022/03/25/is-the-russian-military-somewhat-of-a-potemkin-village/#comment-2615458</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Don]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Mar 2022 02:02:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.thenewneo.com/?p=115755#comment-2615458</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[BTW the link above showed the 5.45 do the best and the 7.62 NATO do the worst in tree penetration. 

The wild card here is the bullet used, which has a significant impact, and I think the 7.62 NATO has the most potential. But in practice it isn&#039;t given that it is best.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>BTW the link above showed the 5.45 do the best and the 7.62 NATO do the worst in tree penetration. </p>
<p>The wild card here is the bullet used, which has a significant impact, and I think the 7.62 NATO has the most potential. But in practice it isn&#8217;t given that it is best.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Don		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2022/03/25/is-the-russian-military-somewhat-of-a-potemkin-village/#comment-2615417</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Don]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Mar 2022 20:20:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.thenewneo.com/?p=115755#comment-2615417</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Also, penetration on things like trees isn&#039;t always consistent:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=547BKysByqM

(Tree penetration test comparing 5.45mm, 5.56mm, 7.62x39mm, and 7.62 NATO)]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Also, penetration on things like trees isn&#8217;t always consistent:</p>
<p><a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=547BKysByqM" rel="nofollow ugc">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=547BKysByqM</a></p>
<p>(Tree penetration test comparing 5.45mm, 5.56mm, 7.62x39mm, and 7.62 NATO)</p>
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		<title>
		By: Don		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2022/03/25/is-the-russian-military-somewhat-of-a-potemkin-village/#comment-2615410</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Don]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Mar 2022 19:48:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.thenewneo.com/?p=115755#comment-2615410</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[The advantage of more rounds and lighter recoil impulse more than make up for lost penetration. The advantage of 5.56 is present almost in any situation. The advantage of 7.62 requires a specific type of situation. 

Even mech infantry are going to be limited in how much ammo is carried, read &lt;i&gt;House to House&lt;/i&gt;, David Bellavia had almost no full mags left when he cleared a house by himself that contained 6 insurgents in Fallujah. They were Bradly dismounts but short on ammo at that point.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The advantage of more rounds and lighter recoil impulse more than make up for lost penetration. The advantage of 5.56 is present almost in any situation. The advantage of 7.62 requires a specific type of situation. </p>
<p>Even mech infantry are going to be limited in how much ammo is carried, read <i>House to House</i>, David Bellavia had almost no full mags left when he cleared a house by himself that contained 6 insurgents in Fallujah. They were Bradly dismounts but short on ammo at that point.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Richard Aubrey		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2022/03/25/is-the-russian-military-somewhat-of-a-potemkin-village/#comment-2615367</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Richard Aubrey]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Mar 2022 12:44:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.thenewneo.com/?p=115755#comment-2615367</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Don.  
Better penetration is my point.  Soldiers like to take cover, either in a well-prepared position or behind whatever&#039;s handy.
It&#039;s why being on the defense is an advantage compared to guys up and moving.
The penetrating capability of the larger round takes a certain proportion of the cover on the battlefield out of use.  Sometimes that&#039;s discovered when rounds come through, sometimes when an experienced soldier is looking at a potential position.
The same applies to buildings, which is why I used the example of the house at a thousand yards.
The individual Infantryman is more effective with the larger round, presuming issues such as weight are dealt with.  And that would be, as I say, with mech Infantry and in the defensive.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Don.<br />
Better penetration is my point.  Soldiers like to take cover, either in a well-prepared position or behind whatever&#8217;s handy.<br />
It&#8217;s why being on the defense is an advantage compared to guys up and moving.<br />
The penetrating capability of the larger round takes a certain proportion of the cover on the battlefield out of use.  Sometimes that&#8217;s discovered when rounds come through, sometimes when an experienced soldier is looking at a potential position.<br />
The same applies to buildings, which is why I used the example of the house at a thousand yards.<br />
The individual Infantryman is more effective with the larger round, presuming issues such as weight are dealt with.  And that would be, as I say, with mech Infantry and in the defensive.</p>
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		<title>
		By: AesopFan		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2022/03/25/is-the-russian-military-somewhat-of-a-potemkin-village/#comment-2615303</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[AesopFan]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Mar 2022 01:30:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.thenewneo.com/?p=115755#comment-2615303</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[@ geoffrey &#062; &quot;Those inclined will read the articles and conclude what they will.&quot;

I read them both.
I then accessed a few more articles from both.
(1) Consortium News is citing reports from Russian media sources contradicting the Ukrainian sources. I don&#039;t see that as an advance.
They are also reprinting articles about Ukraine from Max Blumenthal.
Do a few look-ups on him; I do not consider him a trustworthy source because of his history.
(2) Are we now considering MSN &#038; Newsweek to be credible unbiased sources?

Conclusion: Fog of war, competing stories with no trusted arbiter, and the bias of all sources make it hard from this distance to decide who to believe. Particularly since any given story or source can be mixing (A) objectively true statements (even if we can&#039;t verify them ourselves) with (B) possibly true statements (no one really knows) with (C) false claims.

I do NOT accept &quot;leaked stories from the Pentagon&quot; as anything other than (B) because of their history of promoting what are now known to be (C).

&quot;Never said or even implied that Vlad is a good guy. Just that he’s not the only bad guy leading the unwitting.&quot;

I do agree with this, but it&#039;s very, very unclear who the other bad guys are, what they are &quot;leading&quot; with and why, and who (if any) are the good guys.

Repeating Frederick&#039;s mantra: I know Russia invaded Ukraine and the Ukrainians are fighting back. To which I add, I know a lot of civilians have fled the country and a lot are dead and injured (I do find it hard to dispute some of the photos that have been published). 
Beyond that lies speculation, much of it rivaling the plot lines of Game of Thrones, of which I have been posting my fair share.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ geoffrey &gt; &#8220;Those inclined will read the articles and conclude what they will.&#8221;</p>
<p>I read them both.<br />
I then accessed a few more articles from both.<br />
(1) Consortium News is citing reports from Russian media sources contradicting the Ukrainian sources. I don&#8217;t see that as an advance.<br />
They are also reprinting articles about Ukraine from Max Blumenthal.<br />
Do a few look-ups on him; I do not consider him a trustworthy source because of his history.<br />
(2) Are we now considering MSN &amp; Newsweek to be credible unbiased sources?</p>
<p>Conclusion: Fog of war, competing stories with no trusted arbiter, and the bias of all sources make it hard from this distance to decide who to believe. Particularly since any given story or source can be mixing (A) objectively true statements (even if we can&#8217;t verify them ourselves) with (B) possibly true statements (no one really knows) with (C) false claims.</p>
<p>I do NOT accept &#8220;leaked stories from the Pentagon&#8221; as anything other than (B) because of their history of promoting what are now known to be (C).</p>
<p>&#8220;Never said or even implied that Vlad is a good guy. Just that he’s not the only bad guy leading the unwitting.&#8221;</p>
<p>I do agree with this, but it&#8217;s very, very unclear who the other bad guys are, what they are &#8220;leading&#8221; with and why, and who (if any) are the good guys.</p>
<p>Repeating Frederick&#8217;s mantra: I know Russia invaded Ukraine and the Ukrainians are fighting back. To which I add, I know a lot of civilians have fled the country and a lot are dead and injured (I do find it hard to dispute some of the photos that have been published).<br />
Beyond that lies speculation, much of it rivaling the plot lines of Game of Thrones, of which I have been posting my fair share.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Don		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2022/03/25/is-the-russian-military-somewhat-of-a-potemkin-village/#comment-2615293</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Don]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Mar 2022 00:05:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.thenewneo.com/?p=115755#comment-2615293</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[&lt;i&gt;Our problem is that, since the 1960s, the communists have been burrowing into our institutions with great success. We won the Cold War but are losing the post-Cold War peace.&lt;/i&gt;

Just watched bloviating Joe call for Putin to go (rather stupid thing to call for), and talk about freedom vs tyranny. But Joe represents tyranny here, which is worse than in Ukraine where it is normal. I support Ukraine in their war, but we have a huge problem. The mitigating factor is the incompetence and stupidity of those who wish to rule us.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Our problem is that, since the 1960s, the communists have been burrowing into our institutions with great success. We won the Cold War but are losing the post-Cold War peace.</i></p>
<p>Just watched bloviating Joe call for Putin to go (rather stupid thing to call for), and talk about freedom vs tyranny. But Joe represents tyranny here, which is worse than in Ukraine where it is normal. I support Ukraine in their war, but we have a huge problem. The mitigating factor is the incompetence and stupidity of those who wish to rule us.</p>
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