You write: ” as neo has expressed displeasure at my continued participation in this debate…”

What are you talking about? I’ve argued with the points you’ve made. I don’t care whether you continue to participate or not. I’ve also asked you why you’re beating the dead horse of saying no one here understands what you’re saying about what Putin believes.

That’s not the same as “expressing displeasure” at your “continued participation in this debate.”

If you think that NATO “forced” Putin to attack its neighbors and former possessions, I think that word “forced” doesn’t mean what you think it does.

Western Europe is already loaded with nuclear weapons, as is Russia. Should Russia attack France because it might threaten Russia? Should NATO take try to invade and take over Russia now because it’s a belligerent state that has such weapons?

Until now, the function of nuclear weapons (except for the very end of WWII) has been as a deterrent.

Russia (Putin) has made it clear for nearly 2 decades that it wants to take over Ukraine, a state he says is not even an independent state but part of mother Russia. He thinks Ukraine has no right to self-determination if that self-determination leads it to reject Russian domination.

The Ukrainians are well aware that Putin wants to take them over, even before the invasion. The desire to have nuclear weapons is not to attack Russia, it’s to keep Russia from attacking Ukraine because of the deterrence factor such weapons would represent. Putin knows this and that’s why he must attack and annex Ukraine before it has a chance to be nuclear-armed (which I doubt was going to happen anyway).

Interesting what passes for late-night entertainment in the motherland.
Frankly, though, he really could learn some “nuance” from Rachel Maddow or Joy Reid. Keith Olbermann?

(OTOH, not sure that the Russians actually “do” nuance….)

Ever try to reason with a paranoiac (e.g., Putin)?
Not all that much fun. (Unless one enjoys a challenge and/or is a masochist.)
After long, patient, argumentative, frustrating, exasperating travail, you just might convince that person that no, you’re not out to get him/her. In fact it’s the very last thing you want to do. And it might actually “work”; and things will seem OK; and you’ll breathe a deep sigh of relief…and all is fine and dandy….until a few minutes or hours or days or weeks or months go by and your interlocutor reminds him/herself that you’re out to get him/her.

(Might remind some of living with an alcoholic; somewhat. Not quite the same, though…)

Now Putin may or may not be paranoid; but if he isn’t, he might have developed the notion that it’s in his interest to act like one…. (Besides there’s a centuries-long tradition to uphold…and all that history of being overrun from time to time by hordes from the East, the North, the West, the South…)

That is not what Neo said, don’t try to spin us and Neo.

And the West (NATO?) forced Vlad to invade Georgia? Such a poor put upon puppet, that Vlad. With such forcefullness the West most assuredly could have forced him not to invade the Ukraine? Sad.

Barry: Yep, as Geoffrey said it’s the West not Vlad. AQOTWF: That butterfly looks interesting, CRACK! fade to black.

(Can we call a cease-fire here and ROFL? I mean, is that allowed here? Neoneocon-berry Rules? Just a short laugh, mind you; and then we can back to bashing one another…)

File under: “Silent Night” on the Western Front…

Except they haven’t advanced toward Russia in 17 years, and never advanced at all in the Near East.

They’re affording the ability to hit them with an ICBM from Dublin right now. And, again, the Ukraine is not a member of NATO.

Yes, that is the dogma we’ve been fed.

“The idea that NATO could launch an invasion of Russia from Ukraine and take Russia by force is flat-out bonkers.”

I never said that “NATO could launch an invasion of Russia from Ukraine and take Russia by force“.

Strawman argument.

I did propose the possibility that NATO could take out the Kremlin at an opportune moment if they had cruise missiles in place very near the Ukraine/Russian border.

What you either fail to grasp or simply ignore is that it doesn’t matter whether NATO would actually launch an attack upon the Kremlin. What matters is that the Russians can’t afford to allow even the ability of NATO to do so.

Not once have I denied that Russia invaded Georgia, Ukraine, and Moldova. Nor have I denied that Russia has threatened Romania, Bulgaria, Poland, Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, Finland, and Sweden.

I have insisted that the West has forced Russia into invading Georgia and now the Ukraine by steadily advancing toward Russia and arming eastern NATO member states as though they still faced the Soviet Union.

I have mentioned that much of Putin’s threats are in reaction to NATO putting in place within those nations offensive weapons systems.

Categorizing Russia’s legitimate national security concerns as conspiracy talk is a tried and true way to dismiss debate.

But as neo has expressed displeasure at my continued participation in this debate, I’m bowing out of it here. So have it your way guys, some lessons have to be learned the hard way. Tragically, millions will suffer as the current dogma is supported.