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	Comments on: Open thread 1/15/22	</title>
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	<link>https://thenewneo.com/2022/01/15/open-thread-1-15-22/</link>
	<description>A blog about political change, among other things</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Mon, 17 Jan 2022 13:41:44 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>
		By: stan		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2022/01/15/open-thread-1-15-22/#comment-2601964</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[stan]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Jan 2022 13:41:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.thenewneo.com/?p=112829#comment-2601964</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[https://taibbi.substack.com/p/look-behind-the-curtain-discussion

A very good start. Kirn and Taibbi certainly understand the total corruption and bankruptcy of journalism and liberals. And the hatred of much of America that animates them.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="https://taibbi.substack.com/p/look-behind-the-curtain-discussion" rel="nofollow ugc">https://taibbi.substack.com/p/look-behind-the-curtain-discussion</a></p>
<p>A very good start. Kirn and Taibbi certainly understand the total corruption and bankruptcy of journalism and liberals. And the hatred of much of America that animates them.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Philip Sells		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2022/01/15/open-thread-1-15-22/#comment-2601872</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Philip Sells]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Jan 2022 21:46:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.thenewneo.com/?p=112829#comment-2601872</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Hello, Owen. That was an interesting poem. It&#039;s interesting to speculate about whether the message would really be understandable by aliens on its own without additional enlightening material or footnotes or something. I tried to interpret it once from the point of view of approaching it without preconceptions, although of course with a chemistry background and having seen Sagan&#039;s series, I still had an unfair advantage. You&#039;re right that there&#039;s a certain elegance to it, but at the same time enough crypticity (neologism?) that we might hope that &quot;they&quot; out there won&#039;t get it. I think that the attempt to render DNA in 2-D was too crude to get the point across, for example, absent some structural depiction of nucleotides.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hello, Owen. That was an interesting poem. It&#8217;s interesting to speculate about whether the message would really be understandable by aliens on its own without additional enlightening material or footnotes or something. I tried to interpret it once from the point of view of approaching it without preconceptions, although of course with a chemistry background and having seen Sagan&#8217;s series, I still had an unfair advantage. You&#8217;re right that there&#8217;s a certain elegance to it, but at the same time enough crypticity (neologism?) that we might hope that &#8220;they&#8221; out there won&#8217;t get it. I think that the attempt to render DNA in 2-D was too crude to get the point across, for example, absent some structural depiction of nucleotides.</p>
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		<title>
		By: physicsguy		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2022/01/15/open-thread-1-15-22/#comment-2601831</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[physicsguy]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Jan 2022 14:04:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.thenewneo.com/?p=112829#comment-2601831</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Sunday morning and just catching up with the Neophiles. During your discussion last night I was delighting in watching the Bills destroy the New England Criminals, while also switching over to the Sony Open in Honolulu.

Anyway... The 1/r^2 law applies to radiation that radiates equally in all directions... ie rufus has the right of it.  The total integrated energy will be the same, but the energy density decreases with distance.  With light, it&#039;s sometimes more convenient to use power as it relates directly to the net flux of the photons, so the 1/r^2 law decreases the watts/m^2.  And in terms of energy/photon, E=h(frequency), so a UV photon has more energy than a radio photon.  

The Arecibo message was a focused signal much like the cited example of looking at a flashlight from afar as opposed to a bare light bulb radiating in all directions from the same distance.  Eventually, the photon density does decrease with the focused light, but not at the 1/r^2 rate as for the bare light bulb.  One can also provide even more &quot;resistance&quot; to distance degradation by using a focused laser source as the photons are now initially all in phase. 

As far as detecting weak signals, again as Rufus stated collecting area is important.  Exploiting computer processing we can now &quot;make&quot; very large dishes. The obvious example is the VLA in New Mexico where the effective size of the dish is the radius of the array.  Now the VLA is somewhat obsolete in that we now routinely use what is called VLBI (Very Long Baseline Interferometry) in which dishes across the globe are linked.  Effectively we now have a receiver that is the diameter of the earth itself. There are dreams of putting receivers in space at L2 points to increase the effective diameter even further.   The photon density may be low but gather enough photons and you get a measureable signal.

A main sequence star like the Sun peaks its radiation in the visible and follows the standard blackbody curve. It does radiate in the radio, but at much lower value.  I&#039;m not sure of the calculation (never done it myself), but I think I read in some SETI material that when the Earth began radiating in the radio some 100 years ago that would have changed the net output spectrum of the Sun as observed from afar in the radio region.  ie the Sun would no longer have the standard radio spectrum of a main sequence yellow star.  There would be a small peak in the kHz to MHz frequencies totally uncharacteristic of such a star.  If one could detect such a peak, it would indicate an unnatural radio source associated with such a star.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sunday morning and just catching up with the Neophiles. During your discussion last night I was delighting in watching the Bills destroy the New England Criminals, while also switching over to the Sony Open in Honolulu.</p>
<p>Anyway&#8230; The 1/r^2 law applies to radiation that radiates equally in all directions&#8230; ie rufus has the right of it.  The total integrated energy will be the same, but the energy density decreases with distance.  With light, it&#8217;s sometimes more convenient to use power as it relates directly to the net flux of the photons, so the 1/r^2 law decreases the watts/m^2.  And in terms of energy/photon, E=h(frequency), so a UV photon has more energy than a radio photon.  </p>
<p>The Arecibo message was a focused signal much like the cited example of looking at a flashlight from afar as opposed to a bare light bulb radiating in all directions from the same distance.  Eventually, the photon density does decrease with the focused light, but not at the 1/r^2 rate as for the bare light bulb.  One can also provide even more &#8220;resistance&#8221; to distance degradation by using a focused laser source as the photons are now initially all in phase. </p>
<p>As far as detecting weak signals, again as Rufus stated collecting area is important.  Exploiting computer processing we can now &#8220;make&#8221; very large dishes. The obvious example is the VLA in New Mexico where the effective size of the dish is the radius of the array.  Now the VLA is somewhat obsolete in that we now routinely use what is called VLBI (Very Long Baseline Interferometry) in which dishes across the globe are linked.  Effectively we now have a receiver that is the diameter of the earth itself. There are dreams of putting receivers in space at L2 points to increase the effective diameter even further.   The photon density may be low but gather enough photons and you get a measureable signal.</p>
<p>A main sequence star like the Sun peaks its radiation in the visible and follows the standard blackbody curve. It does radiate in the radio, but at much lower value.  I&#8217;m not sure of the calculation (never done it myself), but I think I read in some SETI material that when the Earth began radiating in the radio some 100 years ago that would have changed the net output spectrum of the Sun as observed from afar in the radio region.  ie the Sun would no longer have the standard radio spectrum of a main sequence yellow star.  There would be a small peak in the kHz to MHz frequencies totally uncharacteristic of such a star.  If one could detect such a peak, it would indicate an unnatural radio source associated with such a star.</p>
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		<title>
		By: AesopFan		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2022/01/15/open-thread-1-15-22/#comment-2601798</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[AesopFan]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Jan 2022 08:15:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.thenewneo.com/?p=112829#comment-2601798</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[@ Owen &quot;Arecibo Message&quot;
Very nice poem, and provocative message.
Thanks.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ Owen &#8220;Arecibo Message&#8221;<br />
Very nice poem, and provocative message.<br />
Thanks.</p>
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		<title>
		By: jon baker		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2022/01/15/open-thread-1-15-22/#comment-2601778</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[jon baker]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Jan 2022 05:06:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.thenewneo.com/?p=112829#comment-2601778</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Rufus,
 Voyager 1 is only 21.5 Light HOURS from Earth. If it was 24 Light Hours from Earth, it would still be only 1/365th of one light year from Earth. Which means it has covered a distance less than 0.00064 % of the distance to the next star system, at 4.3 light years. 

https://voyager.jpl.nasa.gov/mission/status/]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rufus,<br />
 Voyager 1 is only 21.5 Light HOURS from Earth. If it was 24 Light Hours from Earth, it would still be only 1/365th of one light year from Earth. Which means it has covered a distance less than 0.00064 % of the distance to the next star system, at 4.3 light years. </p>
<p><a href="https://voyager.jpl.nasa.gov/mission/status/" rel="nofollow ugc">https://voyager.jpl.nasa.gov/mission/status/</a></p>
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		<title>
		By: R2L		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2022/01/15/open-thread-1-15-22/#comment-2601773</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[R2L]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Jan 2022 04:36:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.thenewneo.com/?p=112829#comment-2601773</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Rufus: perhaps you meant to say &quot;the energy is the same ... with no atmosphere&quot;? But that is not quite correct, either.

From: https://www.restaurantnorman.com/does-light-intensity-depend-on-wavelength/    comes this definition:  intensity is the amount of energy [received or detected] per unit time per unit area.

But if the energy source is less (flashlight vs. search light), the intensity is also less.  So of course the intensity declines if the source is weaker, or the area is greater [over a constant time interval], as it would be at a greater spherical distance.  Your &quot;paint-particle-intensity [aka density] is lower on the bigger sphere with the same number of &quot;droplets&quot; covering a larger area.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rufus: perhaps you meant to say &#8220;the energy is the same &#8230; with no atmosphere&#8221;? But that is not quite correct, either.</p>
<p>From: <a href="https://www.restaurantnorman.com/does-light-intensity-depend-on-wavelength/" rel="nofollow ugc">https://www.restaurantnorman.com/does-light-intensity-depend-on-wavelength/</a>    comes this definition:  intensity is the amount of energy [received or detected] per unit time per unit area.</p>
<p>But if the energy source is less (flashlight vs. search light), the intensity is also less.  So of course the intensity declines if the source is weaker, or the area is greater [over a constant time interval], as it would be at a greater spherical distance.  Your &#8220;paint-particle-intensity [aka density] is lower on the bigger sphere with the same number of &#8220;droplets&#8221; covering a larger area.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Rufus T. Firefly		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2022/01/15/open-thread-1-15-22/#comment-2601760</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Rufus T. Firefly]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Jan 2022 03:35:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.thenewneo.com/?p=112829#comment-2601760</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[jon baker,

I understand your first comment (the valley and flashlight), but I don&#039;t think it&#039;s relevant to our discussion. Yes, fewer of my retinal cones are struck by light particles or waves (depends on what day of the week it is ;-) ) but the intensity is the same if the valley is on the surface of a planet with no atmosphere.

Your second comment is relevant, regarding interference. Even in the relative vacuum of space the further something travels the more likely it is to run into something. But I still don&#039;t see what any of this has to do with the inverse square law or distance. The inverse square law matters regarding sensitivity. A 10 foot diameter disc antenna is going to pick up more radiation than a 1 foot diameter disc, just as a 10 foot diameter disc 100 miles from the source will pick up more radiation than one 1,000 miles away, but each, individual unit of radiation is the same. Distance matters regarding the odds of encountering interference, but I don&#039;t think that&#039;s an inverse square law thing, that&#039;s just increased odds because space is not a perfect vacuum.

We still communicate with Voyager 1, right? As long as it has power we can communicate with it.

I think?]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>jon baker,</p>
<p>I understand your first comment (the valley and flashlight), but I don&#8217;t think it&#8217;s relevant to our discussion. Yes, fewer of my retinal cones are struck by light particles or waves (depends on what day of the week it is 😉 ) but the intensity is the same if the valley is on the surface of a planet with no atmosphere.</p>
<p>Your second comment is relevant, regarding interference. Even in the relative vacuum of space the further something travels the more likely it is to run into something. But I still don&#8217;t see what any of this has to do with the inverse square law or distance. The inverse square law matters regarding sensitivity. A 10 foot diameter disc antenna is going to pick up more radiation than a 1 foot diameter disc, just as a 10 foot diameter disc 100 miles from the source will pick up more radiation than one 1,000 miles away, but each, individual unit of radiation is the same. Distance matters regarding the odds of encountering interference, but I don&#8217;t think that&#8217;s an inverse square law thing, that&#8217;s just increased odds because space is not a perfect vacuum.</p>
<p>We still communicate with Voyager 1, right? As long as it has power we can communicate with it.</p>
<p>I think?</p>
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		<title>
		By: jon baker		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2022/01/15/open-thread-1-15-22/#comment-2601741</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[jon baker]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Jan 2022 02:20:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.thenewneo.com/?p=112829#comment-2601741</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[And the other thing about EM signals, is that the wave aspects is more important to transmit information than the particulate aspect of mere photonic light detection. The EM wave must arrive at the source as a stream, ie , a wave, in order to transmit information whether it be amplitude modulation or frequency modulation. In other words, a segment, not a mere disjointed photon, must arrive at the receiver, in order to transmit information with TV and radio signals. Light on the other hand, needs mere disjointed photons to transmit its source presence. 
From what I have read, that stream runs into other sources of EM along the way, and gets broken up. Think of trying to watch TV with rabbit ears during a strong thunderstorm.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And the other thing about EM signals, is that the wave aspects is more important to transmit information than the particulate aspect of mere photonic light detection. The EM wave must arrive at the source as a stream, ie , a wave, in order to transmit information whether it be amplitude modulation or frequency modulation. In other words, a segment, not a mere disjointed photon, must arrive at the receiver, in order to transmit information with TV and radio signals. Light on the other hand, needs mere disjointed photons to transmit its source presence.<br />
From what I have read, that stream runs into other sources of EM along the way, and gets broken up. Think of trying to watch TV with rabbit ears during a strong thunderstorm.</p>
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		<title>
		By: jon baker		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2022/01/15/open-thread-1-15-22/#comment-2601737</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[jon baker]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Jan 2022 02:05:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.thenewneo.com/?p=112829#comment-2601737</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Rufus,
Imagine you are on a mountain top on a clear night, looking down into the farthest reaches of a valley. Imagine a powerful spotlight in the valley shining upward. You would likely be able to see that. Now imagine a double D cell flashlight with old style incandescent bulbs. Maybe you would still be able to see that. Keep getting smaller and smaller with your light sources, and eventually, your eyes , or your mind, will not be able to detect it. Even if some photons are striking your eyes, there are too few for your mind to acknowledge them, or the photons density is so low, there are literally gaps where your eyes are receiving no photons at all, as they pass around your eyes, but not into your eyes. 
The Inverse square law is something I brought up on this site several weeks ago on the discussion of aliens, but at the time it seemed to pass right over most people’s head. When I looked up some information on SETI, there was information out there that the standard TV signal is likely the wrong type of signal to travel in detectable amounts to the stars.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rufus,<br />
Imagine you are on a mountain top on a clear night, looking down into the farthest reaches of a valley. Imagine a powerful spotlight in the valley shining upward. You would likely be able to see that. Now imagine a double D cell flashlight with old style incandescent bulbs. Maybe you would still be able to see that. Keep getting smaller and smaller with your light sources, and eventually, your eyes , or your mind, will not be able to detect it. Even if some photons are striking your eyes, there are too few for your mind to acknowledge them, or the photons density is so low, there are literally gaps where your eyes are receiving no photons at all, as they pass around your eyes, but not into your eyes.<br />
The Inverse square law is something I brought up on this site several weeks ago on the discussion of aliens, but at the time it seemed to pass right over most people’s head. When I looked up some information on SETI, there was information out there that the standard TV signal is likely the wrong type of signal to travel in detectable amounts to the stars.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Rufus T. Firefly		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2022/01/15/open-thread-1-15-22/#comment-2601728</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Rufus T. Firefly]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Jan 2022 01:48:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.thenewneo.com/?p=112829#comment-2601728</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[huxley @6:56pm,

Either I misunderstand you or you misunderstand radiation (or there is something completely off in the most basic, fundamental ways I understand radiation).

If we have 2, identical 1 foot diameter spherical balloons covered in identical amounts of wet paint and place both of them inside clear spheres with all the air sucked out (a vacuum) with one clear sphere being 3 feet in diameter and the other being 6 feet in diameter and we pop both balloons the same amount of paint hits the inside of each clear sphere. Even though the paint in the 6 foot diameter sphere travels twice the distance each drop keeps going until it hits something. There is no difference in the amount of paint that gets radiated in either clear sphere.

What is different is the density of the drops splattered. The 6 foot diameter sphere will have more gaps between paint drops than the 3 foot sphere.

In the vacuum of space radio waves (and, I believe, all radiation) travels on forever, or until absorbed by something (which, I think, would always result in heat?).

This is why the part of Mercury&#039;s surface (a rocky planet with no atmosphere) facing the Sun is much hotter than the surface of Mars (another rocky planet with no atmosphere). At a distance of about 4 1/2 times further a lot less solar radiation is &quot;painted&quot; on Mars&#039; surface than Mercury&#039;s. A solar photon hitting Mercury is identical in force and radiative quality to one hitting Mars, it&#039;s just that a lot fewer hit Mars.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>huxley @6:56pm,</p>
<p>Either I misunderstand you or you misunderstand radiation (or there is something completely off in the most basic, fundamental ways I understand radiation).</p>
<p>If we have 2, identical 1 foot diameter spherical balloons covered in identical amounts of wet paint and place both of them inside clear spheres with all the air sucked out (a vacuum) with one clear sphere being 3 feet in diameter and the other being 6 feet in diameter and we pop both balloons the same amount of paint hits the inside of each clear sphere. Even though the paint in the 6 foot diameter sphere travels twice the distance each drop keeps going until it hits something. There is no difference in the amount of paint that gets radiated in either clear sphere.</p>
<p>What is different is the density of the drops splattered. The 6 foot diameter sphere will have more gaps between paint drops than the 3 foot sphere.</p>
<p>In the vacuum of space radio waves (and, I believe, all radiation) travels on forever, or until absorbed by something (which, I think, would always result in heat?).</p>
<p>This is why the part of Mercury&#8217;s surface (a rocky planet with no atmosphere) facing the Sun is much hotter than the surface of Mars (another rocky planet with no atmosphere). At a distance of about 4 1/2 times further a lot less solar radiation is &#8220;painted&#8221; on Mars&#8217; surface than Mercury&#8217;s. A solar photon hitting Mercury is identical in force and radiative quality to one hitting Mars, it&#8217;s just that a lot fewer hit Mars.</p>
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