“I thought we were exploring a topic.”

We are, and, by Jove! I believe this exploration has stumbled onto the answer!

The Rufus T. Firefly Hypothesis for Singing Instrumentalists:

S of I = P X MF
The percentage of singers, “S,” for any, specific instrument, “I,” is directly related to that instrument’s value as a solo, stand alone performance object, “P,” multiplied by the amount of freedom the instrument permits the instrumentalist’s mouth, “MF” (mouth freedom) while performing.

If my hypothesis is correct (and it is):

We would see few singing flautists, upright bass players, drummers, saxophonists, trumpet/cornet/trombone/tuba/flugle hornists, violinists/fiddlists due to the low MF value of those instruments.

We would also see few singing drummers, bass players, tubaists (is that a word?), trombonists, baritone sax players, rhythm guitar players due to their typical role as non-lead accompanists.

The two common, rock band (seems to be neo’s focus on these posts) instruments that overlap with both, negative inputs to Rufus’ brilliant, soon to be Noble prize winning equation: bass and drums. And we see electric, non-upright bass more commonly than drums (Paul McCartney, Sting…) due to it’s greater MF value. And, because of their immense MF values and P values we most commonly see singing pianists and guitarists.

Nice work, neo! We’ve found the answer!!

The unseen part of brass, reeds and woodwinds is the oral technique. This is called “embouchure” and here’s a decent explanation regarding trumpet: https://hellomusictheory.com/learn/trumpet-embouchure/ . Most of us are aware there is something to it, as we’ve picked up a friend’s flute, saxophone, clarinet, trumpet or trombone and tried to make sound come out. But when we watch those instruments being played we focus on fingers pressing valves or keys, or the hand moving a slide up and down. I think most folks assume, “Oh, once you figure out how to get sound out of the back end of the trumpet by blowing in the front end ( https://youtu.be/KOmK7W5RhLQ ) the trick is learning what valve to press, when.” In other words, there is one trick per instrument (brass, woodwind or reed) to learning how to turn breath into sound and when you learn that single trick the rest is learning what to do with your fingers or hands.

No. Pressing the right valve or key or moving a slide to the right place (there are actually slide “trumpets” too, as well as flutes) is part of the trick, but the mouth part is harder. I know some saxophone players who have played for decades and are just mastering some of the altissimo notes. Oboe is supposedly impossible. As far as brass, this chart for trombone: http://moosicblob.blogspot.com/2011/02/conductors-knowledge.html is a good, visual image of what’s going on. Other brass work the same, but trombone is easier for explanation as rather than three valves that combine for various tube lengths the trombone slide moves to approximate those same divisions. There are seven, standard slide positions, but a decent brass musician should be able to cover 2 1/2 octaves (good to great brass artists can cover 3 – 5). That’s 30, unique, individual notes. So how do you get 30 notes out of 7 different tube lengths? You do different things with your mouth.

For the most part it’s speed of lip vibration, but there are little, subtle differences at each step that matter greatly. You’ll notice that chart shows six notes in each position. The lower the note, the slower the lip vibration. The higher the note, the faster. However, the instrumentalist may also be altering the amount of lip within the mouthpiece, the angle of the mouthpiece, the pressure of the instrument against the lips, the position of the tongue and facial muscles along with the force of air.

There are similar challenges for the woodwinds and reeds.

Rufus, you may have mentioned it previously, but those things also require considerable investment in breathing techniques, as well. You have to learn how to blow “efficiently” while still taking in air as needed and as the musical timing allows. Running out of air to blow while you are in the middle of that long long note in the middle of your solo part is double-plus-ungood

As has been noted, another more recent example is Ian Anderson, of Jethro Tull, who played the flute as well as acoustic guitar (among other things).

Here’s Locomotive Breath, Live, 1982, with an excellent performance by Anderson. There’s only a certain amount of flute playing but it’s what a live JT performance was like.

I’m not using hyperbole when I write of convenience and cost. Those things really matter. I think non-musicians focus on difficulty; it must be difficult to learn to play an instrument… It certainly can be. For me it was. But when you get to a point where you are playing well enough to perform for the public convenience and cost are huge factors. The point I made in a prior post: if a drummer doesn’t have understanding parents he will likely not get in a band because it’s a lot easier to form a band if you can practice at the drummer’s house. And expensive boom mics, are not the first, or second, or third thing a semi-working band wants to purchase.

The number of folks in a band matters because that’s the denominator in the equation of how much money you make playing (and most musicians do not make much money playing). So if the band doesn’t need a lead singer that’s one less recipient in the denominator. As I wrote on a prior post, in the first band I was in the drummer was the only one with singing experience, but we only had one mic. My parts tended to have the least going on and I could stand in front of the mic so I was asked to learn to sing. I was awful at it at first, but that was barely a concern.

If you are a guitarist who learns to sing you can make more money. If you are a keyboardist who learns to sing you can make more money. Either the band your in needs one less member, or you can go out on your own. This is a big reason why you so often see one or two musicians playing and singing live in coffee shops, bars, restaurants… Those places have a limited budget for music and it’s not worth it to a five piece band that has to share the take five ways. It’s 100% or 50% vs. 20%.

And I promise you, I’ve met a lot of guitarists who are awful vocalists. Many are incredibly shy about singing. There’s nothing magical about learning guitar that makes one a decent singer. Look at Eric Clapton, for goodness sakes! He’s been doing it long enough now he at least has some confidence, but he started doing it out of necessity and frustration.

Piano, organ, keyboard and guitar, especially acoustic guitar, are all a band unto themselves. A pianist can play lead, rhythm and accompaniment, as can a guitarist. If you are a solo instrumentalist who learns to sing while playing you can “do it all.” You don’t need a group. You can play with a group, but you don’t have to. Drums, bass, trumpet… you’re really not entertaining on your own.

I don’t think it has to do with difficulty. I think it has to do with logistics, convenience.

We will have to agree to disagree. Some of the most famous rock vocalists are bass players. I see no correlation regarding bass.

I think it boils down to necessity. Practice makes perfect.

I know different people have different abilities, but I found piano the most difficult instrument to learn*. Strings are my least “natural” instrument, yet you could hand me a guitar and give me a week and I could play rhythm on quite a few rock songs, especially if they are in the same key. Same with bass**. Same with drums. I played in a rock band that formed to do one, special gig. We couldn’t find a drummer so two of us other instrumentalists took turns playing drums based on who was most expendable for a certain song. I’d never played drums before. I played extremely basic rhythms, but the audience never noticed. Piano? Forget about it! It took me months. A Year? To play very simple songs with my hands moving independently.

Yet, there are gobs of singing pianists, organists, keyboardists. Why? A piano player is stationary. A piano player’s mouth is free of obstruction. A human voice can be heard above a piano. Same with acoustic guitar.

*Instruments that have a technique component, like woodwinds, reeds and brass have a huge learning curve to get the unusual mouth technique down, so that’s a thing unto itself. As I wrote on the prior thread, every instrument finds the same level of difficulty. If it’s hard to control, like an oboe, the music tends to be less challenging. Or tuba, that requires a lot of wind. Or trombone, that requires long arm movements. Trumpet players often have much faster music than tuba and trombone. Flutes have faster music than oboes.

Are we debating? Could have fooled me. I thought we were exploring a topic.

My conclusion: drumming and singing is generally considered hardest, then bass, then lead, and then rhythm guitar and singing and piano and singing the easiest. Some people are really good at the most difficult combos, and some aren’t, but some can improve with practice and dedication. And there are certainly examples of people who drum and sing very well and those who play bass and sing very well. The people whose videos I put up on the earlier thread who drum and sing VERY well, Roger Taylor and Don Henley, are considered among the finest practitioners of what most seem to consider a difficult art.

Rather than a rebuttal to my case I see that as agreement. As the jury foreman I declare Rufus T. Firefly the winner of this debate.

So you almost never see a drummer busking, playing drums and singing in the street. When you do they are usually on a minimal kit and very good and/or entertaining singers. You also often see one or two drummers on visually interesting drums, like plastic pails, in the street busking for change, but they rarely sing; maybe some fun hoots and howls, but rarely melodies. They focus on elaborate rhythms and routines.

*I should add that fellow instrumentalists typically appreciate solos on those instruments. The bands I’ve been in get a kick out of the bassist or drummer or bari sax player doing a great solo.