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	Comments on: What sort of mistake was the shootdown of Ukrainian Airlines Flight 752?	</title>
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	<link>https://thenewneo.com/2020/01/11/what-sort-of-mistake-was-the-shootdown-of-ukrainian-airlines-flight-752/</link>
	<description>A blog about political change, among other things</description>
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		<title>
		By: sdferr		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2020/01/11/what-sort-of-mistake-was-the-shootdown-of-ukrainian-airlines-flight-752/#comment-2475127</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[sdferr]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Jan 2020 12:59:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.thenewneo.com/?p=92440#comment-2475127</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[New video (to me) of &lt;b&gt;two!&lt;/b&gt; anti-air missiles -- note video clock, 30 secs apart -- and the flaming plane going down shortly thereafter (camera seems to be closed circuit at some industrial location): Heshmat Alavi, twitter: https://mobile.twitter.com/HeshmatAlavi/status/1217112465013645313]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>New video (to me) of <b>two!</b> anti-air missiles &#8212; note video clock, 30 secs apart &#8212; and the flaming plane going down shortly thereafter (camera seems to be closed circuit at some industrial location): Heshmat Alavi, twitter: <a href="https://mobile.twitter.com/HeshmatAlavi/status/1217112465013645313" rel="nofollow ugc">https://mobile.twitter.com/HeshmatAlavi/status/1217112465013645313</a></p>
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		<title>
		By: Mike-SMO		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2020/01/11/what-sort-of-mistake-was-the-shootdown-of-ukrainian-airlines-flight-752/#comment-2475124</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Mike-SMO]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Jan 2020 11:37:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.thenewneo.com/?p=92440#comment-2475124</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Old Russian (&#038; I assume Soviet) joke; AA missile crews have pistols, not for self defernse, but for suicide,iIf an enemy gets through and missiles ( or all missiles) were not fired.  In other words, when in doubt, &quot;Shoot!&quot;.  

That launch might be the result of a failure to communicate the presence of &quot;normal&quot; civilian traffic, but there are other possibilities.  The students had been exposed to the West and thus were dangerous to the state.  The Iranian/Canadians were &quot;traitors&quot; who ran away from their homeland.  In a certain sense, the passengers were not worth too much to the state.  There probably were more Iranians killed during the last demonstrations.  It was Trump&#039;s fault!  The Iranians probably didn&#039;t expect the international out-cry and news coverage. 

After all, the IRGC-Quds were apparently selected for loyalty and obedience not intelligence. Both air traffic control and air defense require some decent level of intelligence. That shoot-down probably didn&#039;t need anything except a withheld phone call.  A hyper excited missile commander did the rest. That person did his duty and would get time off until the next news cycle.  Officially, &quot;Oops.&quot;

But the Iranian government must know that their guardians are nothing but murderers of civilians in Iran, Syria, Yemen, and Iraq, and that the great leaders could join &quot;Mani&quot; in the fire at any time.  Boom!]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Old Russian (&amp; I assume Soviet) joke; AA missile crews have pistols, not for self defernse, but for suicide,iIf an enemy gets through and missiles ( or all missiles) were not fired.  In other words, when in doubt, &#8220;Shoot!&#8221;.  </p>
<p>That launch might be the result of a failure to communicate the presence of &#8220;normal&#8221; civilian traffic, but there are other possibilities.  The students had been exposed to the West and thus were dangerous to the state.  The Iranian/Canadians were &#8220;traitors&#8221; who ran away from their homeland.  In a certain sense, the passengers were not worth too much to the state.  There probably were more Iranians killed during the last demonstrations.  It was Trump&#8217;s fault!  The Iranians probably didn&#8217;t expect the international out-cry and news coverage. </p>
<p>After all, the IRGC-Quds were apparently selected for loyalty and obedience not intelligence. Both air traffic control and air defense require some decent level of intelligence. That shoot-down probably didn&#8217;t need anything except a withheld phone call.  A hyper excited missile commander did the rest. That person did his duty and would get time off until the next news cycle.  Officially, &#8220;Oops.&#8221;</p>
<p>But the Iranian government must know that their guardians are nothing but murderers of civilians in Iran, Syria, Yemen, and Iraq, and that the great leaders could join &#8220;Mani&#8221; in the fire at any time.  Boom!</p>
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		<title>
		By: Richard		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2020/01/11/what-sort-of-mistake-was-the-shootdown-of-ukrainian-airlines-flight-752/#comment-2474861</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Richard]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Jan 2020 17:15:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.thenewneo.com/?p=92440#comment-2474861</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Do you think the shootdown of the Ukranian airliner was rehearsed with the shootdown of TWA flight 800? Just askin&#039;]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Do you think the shootdown of the Ukranian airliner was rehearsed with the shootdown of TWA flight 800? Just askin&#8217;</p>
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		<title>
		By: Andy		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2020/01/11/what-sort-of-mistake-was-the-shootdown-of-ukrainian-airlines-flight-752/#comment-2474750</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Andy]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 12 Jan 2020 15:35:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.thenewneo.com/?p=92440#comment-2474750</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[There is an awful lot of conjecture in this post and the associated comments. For all we know the SA-15 missile system might have been on automatic, which it is capable of, while the crew had slipped out for some fresh goat milk. We simply do not know and might never know.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There is an awful lot of conjecture in this post and the associated comments. For all we know the SA-15 missile system might have been on automatic, which it is capable of, while the crew had slipped out for some fresh goat milk. We simply do not know and might never know.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Ed Bonderenka		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2020/01/11/what-sort-of-mistake-was-the-shootdown-of-ukrainian-airlines-flight-752/#comment-2474749</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ed Bonderenka]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 12 Jan 2020 15:28:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.thenewneo.com/?p=92440#comment-2474749</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[&quot; Why not perpetrate something like Lockerbie, where at least the Iranians would be getting revenge on Americans? Surely these experts in terrorism and bombing could figure out how to do that?&quot;
Well, we killed Soleimani, the brains behind that sort of thing.
I&#039;m not convinced that there was a particular individual(s) on the plane someone wanted dead, I was (and am) only positing it.
The auto-kill switch sounds plausible except it didn&#039;t target earlier flights.
The bulldozing (erasure) of the personal effects in the debris field is atrocious as an affront to the memory of the victims.

I&#039;m still of the opinion the there is a power struggle in Iran. 
The IRGC may have been too provocative for some elements in power.
Soleimani may have been delivered to us as part of that struggle.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8221; Why not perpetrate something like Lockerbie, where at least the Iranians would be getting revenge on Americans? Surely these experts in terrorism and bombing could figure out how to do that?&#8221;<br />
Well, we killed Soleimani, the brains behind that sort of thing.<br />
I&#8217;m not convinced that there was a particular individual(s) on the plane someone wanted dead, I was (and am) only positing it.<br />
The auto-kill switch sounds plausible except it didn&#8217;t target earlier flights.<br />
The bulldozing (erasure) of the personal effects in the debris field is atrocious as an affront to the memory of the victims.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m still of the opinion the there is a power struggle in Iran.<br />
The IRGC may have been too provocative for some elements in power.<br />
Soleimani may have been delivered to us as part of that struggle.</p>
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		<title>
		By: charles		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2020/01/11/what-sort-of-mistake-was-the-shootdown-of-ukrainian-airlines-flight-752/#comment-2474748</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[charles]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 12 Jan 2020 15:25:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.thenewneo.com/?p=92440#comment-2474748</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[At this point in time, I&#039;m going to think that this shooting down was just a trigger happy commander/crew who didn&#039;t have the training or equipment to determine that it was NOT a threat. He/they might have also been fearful of what would happen to them if it turned out to be a threat and they didn&#039;t shoot it down.  Would they have been imprisoned for not defending Iran properly?

So, yep, Neo, I think you are correct when you say: &quot;People can make very stupid errors when poorly trained, frightened, and under great pressure.&quot;]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>At this point in time, I&#8217;m going to think that this shooting down was just a trigger happy commander/crew who didn&#8217;t have the training or equipment to determine that it was NOT a threat. He/they might have also been fearful of what would happen to them if it turned out to be a threat and they didn&#8217;t shoot it down.  Would they have been imprisoned for not defending Iran properly?</p>
<p>So, yep, Neo, I think you are correct when you say: &#8220;People can make very stupid errors when poorly trained, frightened, and under great pressure.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>
		By: JFM		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2020/01/11/what-sort-of-mistake-was-the-shootdown-of-ukrainian-airlines-flight-752/#comment-2474744</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[JFM]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 12 Jan 2020 14:43:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.thenewneo.com/?p=92440#comment-2474744</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Children playing with matches. And they want to have an atom bomb to play with.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Children playing with matches. And they want to have an atom bomb to play with.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Sarah Rolph		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2020/01/11/what-sort-of-mistake-was-the-shootdown-of-ukrainian-airlines-flight-752/#comment-2474734</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Sarah Rolph]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 12 Jan 2020 13:42:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.thenewneo.com/?p=92440#comment-2474734</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[A huge mistake by poorly trained people seemed plausible at first. But this technical discussion changed my mind -- as Aggie has pointed out, there are several steps that are required to use this thing to shoot down a plane:

https://www.asiatimes.com/2020/01/opinion/iran-keeps-concocting-fake-news-on-downed-jet/

That information makes it seem pretty unlikely that this was a mistake. I suppose it&#039;s possible that the killing of Solemani was so unexpected that the chain of command was seriously broken. The new commander said something recently about how their units are oh-so empowered they can do whatever they want. In light of this shootdown and what we have learned so far, that sounds like a cover story meant to support the accidental shooting narrative. 

I can see the Russians delivering crummy stripped-down air-defense systems to Iran, but it sounds like the fact that the missile hit the plane means that the radar was working, and that the plane had been targeted. Maybe they thought it was a different plane, but that is a difficult error, too.... 

As they say in Maine, &quot;hard sayin&#039;, not knowin&#039;...&quot;]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A huge mistake by poorly trained people seemed plausible at first. But this technical discussion changed my mind &#8212; as Aggie has pointed out, there are several steps that are required to use this thing to shoot down a plane:</p>
<p><a href="https://www.asiatimes.com/2020/01/opinion/iran-keeps-concocting-fake-news-on-downed-jet/" rel="nofollow ugc">https://www.asiatimes.com/2020/01/opinion/iran-keeps-concocting-fake-news-on-downed-jet/</a></p>
<p>That information makes it seem pretty unlikely that this was a mistake. I suppose it&#8217;s possible that the killing of Solemani was so unexpected that the chain of command was seriously broken. The new commander said something recently about how their units are oh-so empowered they can do whatever they want. In light of this shootdown and what we have learned so far, that sounds like a cover story meant to support the accidental shooting narrative. </p>
<p>I can see the Russians delivering crummy stripped-down air-defense systems to Iran, but it sounds like the fact that the missile hit the plane means that the radar was working, and that the plane had been targeted. Maybe they thought it was a different plane, but that is a difficult error, too&#8230;. </p>
<p>As they say in Maine, &#8220;hard sayin&#8217;, not knowin&#8217;&#8230;&#8221;</p>
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		<title>
		By: neo		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2020/01/11/what-sort-of-mistake-was-the-shootdown-of-ukrainian-airlines-flight-752/#comment-2474710</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[neo]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 12 Jan 2020 04:11:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.thenewneo.com/?p=92440#comment-2474710</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[AesopFan; Ted Clayton:

I&#039;ve read conflicting reports on whether the plane actually made a turn. At this point, I don&#039;t think it did. &lt;a href=&quot;https://www.chicagotribune.com/nation-world/ct-nw-nyt-airplaine-shot-down-iran-20200111-klsl2id75je5vpo7ksxzxsh3qi-story.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;See this&lt;/a&gt;:
&lt;blockquote&gt;Contradictions and miscues complicated Iran’s message even as it took responsibility for the disaster. Iran’s military, in its initial admission early Saturday, said the flight’s crew had taken a sharp, unexpected turn that brought it near a sensitive military base — an assertion that was immediately disputed by the Ukrainians.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

In this case, I&#039;d trust the Ukrainians over the Iranians.

And then the Iranian commander - who sounds as though he wishes &lt;i&gt;he&lt;/i&gt; were dead, and who probably will be dead soon, said this:
&lt;blockquote&gt;

Hours later, an Iranian commander who accepted full responsibility for the disaster agreed that the Ukrainians were right.

“The plane was flying in its normal direction without any error and everybody was doing their job correctly,” said the commander, Gen. Amir Ali Hajizadeh, who leads the airspace unit of Iran’s Revolutionary Guard — a powerful, hard-line military force. “If there was a mistake, it was made by one of our members.”
&lt;/blockquote&gt;

]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>AesopFan; Ted Clayton:</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve read conflicting reports on whether the plane actually made a turn. At this point, I don&#8217;t think it did. <a href="https://www.chicagotribune.com/nation-world/ct-nw-nyt-airplaine-shot-down-iran-20200111-klsl2id75je5vpo7ksxzxsh3qi-story.html" rel="nofollow">See this</a>:</p>
<blockquote><p>Contradictions and miscues complicated Iran’s message even as it took responsibility for the disaster. Iran’s military, in its initial admission early Saturday, said the flight’s crew had taken a sharp, unexpected turn that brought it near a sensitive military base — an assertion that was immediately disputed by the Ukrainians.</p></blockquote>
<p>In this case, I&#8217;d trust the Ukrainians over the Iranians.</p>
<p>And then the Iranian commander &#8211; who sounds as though he wishes <i>he</i> were dead, and who probably will be dead soon, said this:</p>
<blockquote>
<p>Hours later, an Iranian commander who accepted full responsibility for the disaster agreed that the Ukrainians were right.</p>
<p>“The plane was flying in its normal direction without any error and everybody was doing their job correctly,” said the commander, Gen. Amir Ali Hajizadeh, who leads the airspace unit of Iran’s Revolutionary Guard — a powerful, hard-line military force. “If there was a mistake, it was made by one of our members.”
</p></blockquote>
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		<title>
		By: neo		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2020/01/11/what-sort-of-mistake-was-the-shootdown-of-ukrainian-airlines-flight-752/#comment-2474708</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[neo]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 12 Jan 2020 04:01:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.thenewneo.com/?p=92440#comment-2474708</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Ken:

Well, I&#039;m not a Democrat, but as I already explained in this post I believe at this point they&#039;re telling the truth, although far from the whole truth. To believe otherwise one must come up with an alternative explanation that makes sense, and so far none of them make sense.

People can make very stupid errors when poorly trained, frightened, and under great pressure.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ken:</p>
<p>Well, I&#8217;m not a Democrat, but as I already explained in this post I believe at this point they&#8217;re telling the truth, although far from the whole truth. To believe otherwise one must come up with an alternative explanation that makes sense, and so far none of them make sense.</p>
<p>People can make very stupid errors when poorly trained, frightened, and under great pressure.</p>
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