Comments on: The people of Hong Kong have spoken

By: Ymarsakar

Ymarsakar — Thu, 28 Nov 2019 13:48:13 +0000

huxley on November 25, 2019 at 4:16 pm said:
Pray ’em if you got ’em.
until 2021.

By: Gringo

Gringo — Tue, 26 Nov 2019 19:59:11 +0000

Zaphod
Mainland Brainwashing is so good that nearly 100% of mainland students who study *overseas* remain extremely nationalistic (which is 100% associated in their minds with CCP rule).

That is also my impression, based on what I have read. Australia comes to mind. That wasn’t the case 30 years ago, when I knew a lot of Chinese students studying overseas.

By: AesopFan

AesopFan — Tue, 26 Nov 2019 04:29:53 +0000

Irv on November 25, 2019 at 4:24 pm said:
…
Democrats, as usual, are playing right into our enemies hands. They couldn’t be more helpful to China if China was paying and directing them.
* * *
What Parker and Huxley said.
Also this (new)
https://bigleaguepolitics.com/exposed-chinese-spy-reveals-communist-partys-intelligence-operations-abroad/

and this (old) (compare and contrast the messaging)
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/feinstein-chinese-spy/
https://www.ammoland.com/2019/01/no-investigation-senator-feinsteins-chinese-spy/

Balanced but sceptical of the “nothing to see here” media non-reports.
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/weekly-standard/the-spy-who-drove-her-dianne-feinstein-and-chinese-espionage

By: Zaphod

Zaphod — Tue, 26 Nov 2019 04:17:05 +0000

Also when things get messy, vultures start circling at the top of the power pyramid. What better time then to clothe oneself in the Orthodoxies which are given at best only lip service when life is smooth and sunny?

See Winnie the Pooh on CCTV News wearing suit = Happy Days.

Pooh Bear in Mao Jacket = Someone is about to get the book thrown at him.

Pooh in Camo = We know he musta been binge watching Duck Dynasty.

By: Zaphod

Zaphod — Tue, 26 Nov 2019 04:09:22 +0000

I guess part of what I’m getting at is when rubber hits the road under conditions of stresses and constraints, these guys are going to automatically revert to specific dialectical modes of reasoning. The kind not good for Kulaks, or non-Lysenkoists.

By: huxley

huxley — Tue, 26 Nov 2019 03:33:27 +0000

And now let me introduce you to our mutual acquaintances, Mister Saphir and Mister Whorf…. *this* is where the pure pragmatism assumption becomes a bit messy.

Zaphod: I don’t think I’ve been in a conversation where the Sapir-Whorf Hypothesis came up since the seventies.

Your point then is that the CCP leadership is pragmatic *and* has also been shaped by the language of constant Communist propaganda they’ve imprinted since they were children. Brainwashing.

Interesting idea about “a long war of attrition.”

By: Zaphod

Zaphod — Tue, 26 Nov 2019 03:04:11 +0000

China *is* ruled by an Emperor for Life: Emperor Xi Jinping. Shanghai is ruled by the Duke of Shanghai (Whoever currently Shanghai Party Secretary is… note I did not say current Shanghai *Mayor*)… Ditto each of the other Tier 1 Cities and then all the provinces. And so on down to the local Squirearchy. These are not (yet) perfectly hereditary — and probably cannot become so — but the same families pop up all the time. Mao was a right evil bastard, but one of his more honest stated reasons for kicking off the Cultural Revolution was because he saw this tendency arising as early as the early 60s.

Ignore the Nomenclature. Look at what they do, not what they say.

As for Ideology, It’s Complicated. Deep down, guys at the top are pure pragmatists. Xi Jinping cannot just ‘retire’. So, in theory, at least, they are not Ideologues at all. However, to *get* to the top they needed to study and spout all the necessary in-group signaling CCP Boilerplate from the time they were very young until they finally found themselves sitting around Politburo conference table with feet shakily planted on necks of pyramid of 1.4B Chinese. And now let me introduce you to our mutual acquaintances, Mister Saphir and Mister Whorf…. *this* is where the pure pragmatism assumption becomes a bit messy.

Unlikely anything that looks similar to Tiananmen Square (and surrounds) Massacre. Protesters are not really into set piece occupations of territory… May just be a long war of attrition. The main worry CCP has is that dissent will spread from Hong Kong to other cities in China. So far appears zero chance of this. Mainland Brainwashing is so good that nearly 100% of mainland students who study *overseas* remain extremely nationalistic (which is 100% associated in their minds with CCP rule). And frankly there are plenty of good arguments to be made against representative democracy — which we won’t get into here — believe me they get to hear them all.

By: Richard Saunders

Richard Saunders — Tue, 26 Nov 2019 02:36:06 +0000

I don’t think CCP ideology has much to do with the situation — if China were still ruled by an emperor, I think the situation would be pretty much the same. Generally, face would triumph over practicality — but in this case, as Zaphod pointed out, Hong Kong is the money laundering capital of China. If the billionaires/CCP leaders — the same people in many cases — go to Xi and say, “Uh-uh, no way, Jose,” I think he would have to cancel a full-scale Tianimen square-type assault. Question is, will they?

By: Julie near Chicago

Julie near Chicago — Tue, 26 Nov 2019 02:34:24 +0000

Interesting discussion. And thanks, Zaphod, for your comments.

By: Roy Nathanson

Roy Nathanson — Tue, 26 Nov 2019 01:19:19 +0000

Do not be shocked at how far Bejing might go. Authoritarian governments have shown an astonishing proclivity for killing the goose that lays the golden eggs. They also know that they can weather the storm of criticism from the international community.

Their calculation is that if they look weak on HK, it could easily lead to uprisings in other provinces.