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	Comments on: On Wolff: the latest chapter in the continuing anti-Trump effort	</title>
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	<link>https://thenewneo.com/2018/01/04/on-wolff-the-latest-chapter-in-the-continuing-anti-trump-effort/</link>
	<description>A blog about political change, among other things</description>
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		<title>
		By: neo-neocon		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2018/01/04/on-wolff-the-latest-chapter-in-the-continuing-anti-trump-effort/#comment-2348042</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[neo-neocon]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Jan 2018 03:33:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/?p=74462#comment-2348042</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[AesopFan:

Actually, it&#039;s only awkward if a person considers style and substance of equal importance.

For example, I don&#039;t like Trump&#039;s style but I like most of what he&#039;s done (substance).  But I consider the latter far more important than the former, so it&#039;s not awkward at all.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>AesopFan:</p>
<p>Actually, it&#8217;s only awkward if a person considers style and substance of equal importance.</p>
<p>For example, I don&#8217;t like Trump&#8217;s style but I like most of what he&#8217;s done (substance).  But I consider the latter far more important than the former, so it&#8217;s not awkward at all.</p>
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		<title>
		By: AesopFan		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2018/01/04/on-wolff-the-latest-chapter-in-the-continuing-anti-trump-effort/#comment-2348037</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[AesopFan]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Jan 2018 03:28:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/?p=74462#comment-2348037</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[neo-neocon Says: 
January 5th, 2018 at 5:44 pm
AesopFan:

Shepherd is very umble.
* * *
Indeed.
And persistent, which keeps things lively.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>neo-neocon Says:<br />
January 5th, 2018 at 5:44 pm<br />
AesopFan:</p>
<p>Shepherd is very umble.<br />
* * *<br />
Indeed.<br />
And persistent, which keeps things lively.</p>
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		<title>
		By: AesopFan		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2018/01/04/on-wolff-the-latest-chapter-in-the-continuing-anti-trump-effort/#comment-2348036</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[AesopFan]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Jan 2018 03:25:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/?p=74462#comment-2348036</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Stephen Ippolito Says: 
January 4th, 2018 at 11:14 pm
Oldflyer, agreed. 100%.

Where I come from we go one step further and have a saying that people as candid as Neo: “Call a spade a bloody shovel”.
* * *
I wanted to check the etymology (given that there are more things called spades than just shovels) and a similar idiom goes back to the Greeks, not surprisingly.
Wikipedia cites a Wildean twist:
Oscar Wilde uses the phrase in his novel The Picture of Dorian Gray (1890), when the character Lord Henry Wotton remarks: &quot;It is a sad truth, but we have lost the faculty of giving lovely names to things. The man who could call a spade a spade should be compelled to use one. It is the only thing he is fit for.&quot; [14] Wilde uses it again in The Importance of Being Earnest (1895).[15]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Stephen Ippolito Says:<br />
January 4th, 2018 at 11:14 pm<br />
Oldflyer, agreed. 100%.</p>
<p>Where I come from we go one step further and have a saying that people as candid as Neo: “Call a spade a bloody shovel”.<br />
* * *<br />
I wanted to check the etymology (given that there are more things called spades than just shovels) and a similar idiom goes back to the Greeks, not surprisingly.<br />
Wikipedia cites a Wildean twist:<br />
Oscar Wilde uses the phrase in his novel The Picture of Dorian Gray (1890), when the character Lord Henry Wotton remarks: &#8220;It is a sad truth, but we have lost the faculty of giving lovely names to things. The man who could call a spade a spade should be compelled to use one. It is the only thing he is fit for.&#8221; [14] Wilde uses it again in The Importance of Being Earnest (1895).[15]</p>
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		<title>
		By: AesopFan		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2018/01/04/on-wolff-the-latest-chapter-in-the-continuing-anti-trump-effort/#comment-2348033</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[AesopFan]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Jan 2018 03:20:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/?p=74462#comment-2348033</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Dave Says: 
January 5th, 2018 at 1:39 pm
Obama was supposed to be the epitome of a classy president and a textbook demonstration of the most appropriate way a president should behave. What had he achieved? ...
* * *
Of course, there are people who approved of both style and substance with Mr. Obama, which only shows that people have different priorities.  
There is an interesting 4-cell matrix here (omitting the orthogonal axis of personal feelings over back-tracking, as Neo described, and any others that might be operational).

Disapproving of Pres. Trump because of his style while approving of (most) of his substance is awkward, to say the least.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dave Says:<br />
January 5th, 2018 at 1:39 pm<br />
Obama was supposed to be the epitome of a classy president and a textbook demonstration of the most appropriate way a president should behave. What had he achieved? &#8230;<br />
* * *<br />
Of course, there are people who approved of both style and substance with Mr. Obama, which only shows that people have different priorities.<br />
There is an interesting 4-cell matrix here (omitting the orthogonal axis of personal feelings over back-tracking, as Neo described, and any others that might be operational).</p>
<p>Disapproving of Pres. Trump because of his style while approving of (most) of his substance is awkward, to say the least.</p>
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		<title>
		By: AesopFan		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2018/01/04/on-wolff-the-latest-chapter-in-the-continuing-anti-trump-effort/#comment-2348032</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[AesopFan]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Jan 2018 03:19:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/?p=74462#comment-2348032</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Ben David Says: 
January 5th, 2018 at 5:22 am
To use neo’s apt phrase, the “left that believes it should be inevitable and permanent” can be parsed into sub-groups:
* * *
Nice start on a taxonomy of positions.
There are an infinite number (very nearly), and yet we try to map them onto a single line of Left v. Right, and even onto two single points (Democrat v. Republican), and it really is much more complex than that.
BUT we only (essentially) vote for the candidates controlled by the two major parties, so the myriad has to be shoe-horned in somehow.
Which is why blog discussions are so interesting.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ben David Says:<br />
January 5th, 2018 at 5:22 am<br />
To use neo’s apt phrase, the “left that believes it should be inevitable and permanent” can be parsed into sub-groups:<br />
* * *<br />
Nice start on a taxonomy of positions.<br />
There are an infinite number (very nearly), and yet we try to map them onto a single line of Left v. Right, and even onto two single points (Democrat v. Republican), and it really is much more complex than that.<br />
BUT we only (essentially) vote for the candidates controlled by the two major parties, so the myriad has to be shoe-horned in somehow.<br />
Which is why blog discussions are so interesting.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Frog		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2018/01/04/on-wolff-the-latest-chapter-in-the-continuing-anti-trump-effort/#comment-2348018</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Frog]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Jan 2018 02:34:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/?p=74462#comment-2348018</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I will never trust any male (XY) with  a degree from Vassar, as Wiki says Woolff has. I am comfortable generalizing these creatures are poseurs or are looking to root and snuffle between many thighs.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I will never trust any male (XY) with  a degree from Vassar, as Wiki says Woolff has. I am comfortable generalizing these creatures are poseurs or are looking to root and snuffle between many thighs.</p>
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		<title>
		By: neo-neocon		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2018/01/04/on-wolff-the-latest-chapter-in-the-continuing-anti-trump-effort/#comment-2347460</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[neo-neocon]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Jan 2018 23:19:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/?p=74462#comment-2347460</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Shepherd:

If you don&#039;t want your statements to be interpreted exactly as you write them, then I suggest you use different words that actually express what you&#039;re trying to convey rather than words that give a different impression, such as &lt;i&gt;absolutely believe&lt;/i&gt;.

I merely respond to what you write.

You, however, have a habit of mischaracterizing what other people (me, for example) write.  You say [emphasis added]:

&lt;blockquote&gt;But according to you, the &lt;b&gt;only reasons&lt;/b&gt; a Never Trumper might still be against Trump are superficial (his style, don’t want to admit we were wrong). &lt;/blockquote&gt;

However, I actually &lt;a href=&quot;http://neoneocon.com/2018/01/05/never-trumpers-never-trumping/&quot;&gt;wrote&lt;/a&gt; [emphasis added]:
&lt;blockquote&gt;I don’t buy the idea that &lt;b&gt;most anti-Trump conservatives&lt;/b&gt; don’t really want the conservative agenda, or at least most of the conservative agenda. I think their &lt;b&gt;main&lt;/b&gt; objections to Trump now are twofold. &lt;/blockquote&gt; 

So let&#039;s recap.  I did not say that &quot;the &lt;b&gt;only reasons&lt;/b&gt; a Never Trumper might still be against Trump&quot; are confined to those two reasons. I was speaking specifically of &lt;b&gt;most&lt;/b&gt; (not all, most) of the anti-Trump &lt;b&gt;conservatives&lt;/b&gt;, who are still against Trump, despite his having for the most part implemented a &lt;i&gt;conservative&lt;/i&gt; set of actions as president, and of their &lt;i&gt;main&lt;/i&gt; (not only) objections to him.  

And I was especially addressing the charge that if they didn&#039;t support him at this point it meant they weren&#039;t interested in implementing &lt;b&gt;conservative&lt;/b&gt; ideas.  RINOs and non-conservatives, of course, could easily have plenty of other reasons for not liking Trump, and some GOP Never-Trumpers are RINOs or at the very least non-conservatives.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Shepherd:</p>
<p>If you don&#8217;t want your statements to be interpreted exactly as you write them, then I suggest you use different words that actually express what you&#8217;re trying to convey rather than words that give a different impression, such as <i>absolutely believe</i>.</p>
<p>I merely respond to what you write.</p>
<p>You, however, have a habit of mischaracterizing what other people (me, for example) write.  You say [emphasis added]:</p>
<blockquote><p>But according to you, the <b>only reasons</b> a Never Trumper might still be against Trump are superficial (his style, don’t want to admit we were wrong). </p></blockquote>
<p>However, I actually <a href="http://neoneocon.com/2018/01/05/never-trumpers-never-trumping/">wrote</a> [emphasis added]:</p>
<blockquote><p>I don’t buy the idea that <b>most anti-Trump conservatives</b> don’t really want the conservative agenda, or at least most of the conservative agenda. I think their <b>main</b> objections to Trump now are twofold. </p></blockquote>
<p>So let&#8217;s recap.  I did not say that &#8220;the <b>only reasons</b> a Never Trumper might still be against Trump&#8221; are confined to those two reasons. I was speaking specifically of <b>most</b> (not all, most) of the anti-Trump <b>conservatives</b>, who are still against Trump, despite his having for the most part implemented a <i>conservative</i> set of actions as president, and of their <i>main</i> (not only) objections to him.  </p>
<p>And I was especially addressing the charge that if they didn&#8217;t support him at this point it meant they weren&#8217;t interested in implementing <b>conservative</b> ideas.  RINOs and non-conservatives, of course, could easily have plenty of other reasons for not liking Trump, and some GOP Never-Trumpers are RINOs or at the very least non-conservatives.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Shepherd		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2018/01/04/on-wolff-the-latest-chapter-in-the-continuing-anti-trump-effort/#comment-2347412</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Shepherd]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Jan 2018 23:04:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/?p=74462#comment-2347412</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[This is another demoralizing example of your insistence on reading everything I write in the worst possible light. You wanted me to admit there is ambiguity in what I say, so I do, but you seem so certain you know exactly what I mean every time. I didn’t say KNOW I said BELIEVE. The use of “absolutely” was for emphasis, not to convey certainty, because I was trying to distinguish what I believe from what the president’s chief strategist accused him of.

And yes, I think the weight of evidence is against him, even if I don’t know all the details, as much as I believe the weight of evidence is against Clinton. DJT Jr and co eagerly took a meeting with someone representing the Russian govt and a Russian spy to explore derogatory info on Clinton, hid it, and lied about it. Papadapolous knew about Russian computer crimes against Americans and said nothing about it–the same crime Trump publically called on Russia to commit in his speech. Sessions, Flynn, Kushner all lied repeatedly about meetings with Russian govt. Trump dictated a response to the discovery of the DJT Jr meeing that prompted one of his lawyers to quit in protest. Trump is a con artist (Trump University) who lies constantly (more bills signed). If there’s no fire, then there’s sure a lot of smoke that needs explaining.

But according to you, the only reasons a Never Trumper might still be against Trump are superficial (his style, don’t want to admit we were wrong). Not that we are able to objectively weigh the evidence and reach a reasonable conclusion at odds with yours. No, you know better than me what’s in my heart and mind. What this really seems to amount to is, you don’t see any room for real conservative disagreement about Trump and continually threaten to loose your patience with me (ban me?. So the guy who rants about flat earth and demons controlling the government is ok but I’m a troll because I absolutely believe something. (Ever heard of Faith?)]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is another demoralizing example of your insistence on reading everything I write in the worst possible light. You wanted me to admit there is ambiguity in what I say, so I do, but you seem so certain you know exactly what I mean every time. I didn’t say KNOW I said BELIEVE. The use of “absolutely” was for emphasis, not to convey certainty, because I was trying to distinguish what I believe from what the president’s chief strategist accused him of.</p>
<p>And yes, I think the weight of evidence is against him, even if I don’t know all the details, as much as I believe the weight of evidence is against Clinton. DJT Jr and co eagerly took a meeting with someone representing the Russian govt and a Russian spy to explore derogatory info on Clinton, hid it, and lied about it. Papadapolous knew about Russian computer crimes against Americans and said nothing about it–the same crime Trump publically called on Russia to commit in his speech. Sessions, Flynn, Kushner all lied repeatedly about meetings with Russian govt. Trump dictated a response to the discovery of the DJT Jr meeing that prompted one of his lawyers to quit in protest. Trump is a con artist (Trump University) who lies constantly (more bills signed). If there’s no fire, then there’s sure a lot of smoke that needs explaining.</p>
<p>But according to you, the only reasons a Never Trumper might still be against Trump are superficial (his style, don’t want to admit we were wrong). Not that we are able to objectively weigh the evidence and reach a reasonable conclusion at odds with yours. No, you know better than me what’s in my heart and mind. What this really seems to amount to is, you don’t see any room for real conservative disagreement about Trump and continually threaten to loose your patience with me (ban me?. So the guy who rants about flat earth and demons controlling the government is ok but I’m a troll because I absolutely believe something. (Ever heard of Faith?)</p>
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		<title>
		By: neo-neocon		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2018/01/04/on-wolff-the-latest-chapter-in-the-continuing-anti-trump-effort/#comment-2347342</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[neo-neocon]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Jan 2018 22:44:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/?p=74462#comment-2347342</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[AesopFan:

Shepherd is &lt;a href=&quot;https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uriah_Heep&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;very &lt;i&gt;umble&lt;/i&gt;.&lt;/a&gt;]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>AesopFan:</p>
<p>Shepherd is <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uriah_Heep" rel="nofollow">very <i>umble</i>.</a></p>
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		<title>
		By: AesopFan		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2018/01/04/on-wolff-the-latest-chapter-in-the-continuing-anti-trump-effort/#comment-2347149</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[AesopFan]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Jan 2018 21:54:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/?p=74462#comment-2347149</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[&quot;If I find a topic of interest, I discuss it, whoever brings it up.&quot; -- Neo

Sometimes it takes a Troll&#039;s nudges to bring up a topic that is either tangential or orthogonal to the original discussion, which is a valuable service.
It&#039;s Shepherd&#039;s &quot;aw shucks, Ma&#039;am&quot; rhetoric while trying to get a better opening for his knives that grates on me.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;If I find a topic of interest, I discuss it, whoever brings it up.&#8221; &#8212; Neo</p>
<p>Sometimes it takes a Troll&#8217;s nudges to bring up a topic that is either tangential or orthogonal to the original discussion, which is a valuable service.<br />
It&#8217;s Shepherd&#8217;s &#8220;aw shucks, Ma&#8217;am&#8221; rhetoric while trying to get a better opening for his knives that grates on me.</p>
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