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	Comments on: Honor/shame versus guilt; obedience to authority	</title>
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	<link>https://thenewneo.com/2017/11/30/honorshame-versus-guilt-obedience-to-authority/</link>
	<description>A blog about political change, among other things</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Sat, 02 Dec 2017 18:13:44 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>
		By: neo-neocon		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2017/11/30/honorshame-versus-guilt-obedience-to-authority/#comment-2298025</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[neo-neocon]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 02 Dec 2017 18:13:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/?p=73515#comment-2298025</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Richard Aubrey:

Not having watched Lauer or his show, I can&#039;t say why he&#039;d be worth gazillions of dollars.  But for whatever reasons, he must have been good for ratings.  They usually have figures on this stuff before they give out the big big bucks.

O&#039;Reilly was also the big moneymaker at Fox.  I don&#039;t know what his great appeal was, either, but at least he had a more distinctive (brash, arrogant) style.

Both had their start in regular news.  

Or maybe they slept with someone to get ahead :-) .]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Richard Aubrey:</p>
<p>Not having watched Lauer or his show, I can&#8217;t say why he&#8217;d be worth gazillions of dollars.  But for whatever reasons, he must have been good for ratings.  They usually have figures on this stuff before they give out the big big bucks.</p>
<p>O&#8217;Reilly was also the big moneymaker at Fox.  I don&#8217;t know what his great appeal was, either, but at least he had a more distinctive (brash, arrogant) style.</p>
<p>Both had their start in regular news.  </p>
<p>Or maybe they slept with someone to get ahead 🙂 .</p>
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		<title>
		By: Richard Aubrey		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2017/11/30/honorshame-versus-guilt-obedience-to-authority/#comment-2297591</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Richard Aubrey]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 02 Dec 2017 13:24:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/?p=73515#comment-2297591</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I suppose the act of unbuttoning can be taken as a first step with the following steps presumed by both sides.
Otherwise, why bother.
Hefner made a lot of money with unbuttoned breasts and it would follow that the act might seem like the opening act, not the entire thing.

What I don&#039;t get is the network&#039;s conclusion that he was worth millions in revenue on his show.  I don&#039;t watch those shows for any reason and so I can&#039;t comment. But couldn&#039;t any cheerful, well-spoken, better looking than average, guy pull  viewers?  After all, they&#039;re not paying him to do stand up.  He&#039;s acting and reacting to all the things the producers and writers have pulled together.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I suppose the act of unbuttoning can be taken as a first step with the following steps presumed by both sides.<br />
Otherwise, why bother.<br />
Hefner made a lot of money with unbuttoned breasts and it would follow that the act might seem like the opening act, not the entire thing.</p>
<p>What I don&#8217;t get is the network&#8217;s conclusion that he was worth millions in revenue on his show.  I don&#8217;t watch those shows for any reason and so I can&#8217;t comment. But couldn&#8217;t any cheerful, well-spoken, better looking than average, guy pull  viewers?  After all, they&#8217;re not paying him to do stand up.  He&#8217;s acting and reacting to all the things the producers and writers have pulled together.</p>
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		<title>
		By: neo-neocon		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2017/11/30/honorshame-versus-guilt-obedience-to-authority/#comment-2297386</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[neo-neocon]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 02 Dec 2017 05:24:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/?p=73515#comment-2297386</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[AesopFan:

You&#039;re imagining something that&#039;s not there. There&#039;s no indication she was upset at being dropped.  She had resisted his advances earlier.  She doesn&#039;t seem to have been interested in him, from the start.

And of course there are some people who go from practically nothing to full-fledged intercourse in about 1 second.  It&#039;s not the usual thing, though, to say &quot;Hey, Ms. Smith, would you please unbutton your blouse?&quot; and then suddenly &quot;Wham, bam, thank you ma&#039;m.&quot;]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>AesopFan:</p>
<p>You&#8217;re imagining something that&#8217;s not there. There&#8217;s no indication she was upset at being dropped.  She had resisted his advances earlier.  She doesn&#8217;t seem to have been interested in him, from the start.</p>
<p>And of course there are some people who go from practically nothing to full-fledged intercourse in about 1 second.  It&#8217;s not the usual thing, though, to say &#8220;Hey, Ms. Smith, would you please unbutton your blouse?&#8221; and then suddenly &#8220;Wham, bam, thank you ma&#8217;m.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>
		By: neo-neocon		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2017/11/30/honorshame-versus-guilt-obedience-to-authority/#comment-2297382</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[neo-neocon]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 02 Dec 2017 05:18:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/?p=73515#comment-2297382</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[blert:

I don&#039;t want to get too technical here, but no, I don&#039;t think that&#039;s what she&#039;s saying or even hinting at.  It&#039;s possible to perform the usual type of intercourse from that position, quite possible.  

I&#039;ll leave it at that.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>blert:</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t want to get too technical here, but no, I don&#8217;t think that&#8217;s what she&#8217;s saying or even hinting at.  It&#8217;s possible to perform the usual type of intercourse from that position, quite possible.  </p>
<p>I&#8217;ll leave it at that.</p>
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		<title>
		By: blert		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2017/11/30/honorshame-versus-guilt-obedience-to-authority/#comment-2297346</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[blert]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 02 Dec 2017 05:02:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/?p=73515#comment-2297346</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[The poor victim most likely passed out because Lauer is plainly fixated on sodomy. (Hence the sex toys he sent created shock and dismay.)


Hence the reason that Matt was compelled to call for medical help. (the physical damage.) No wonder the gal was too ashamed to file a rape report -- for that&#039;s what Matt did to her.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The poor victim most likely passed out because Lauer is plainly fixated on sodomy. (Hence the sex toys he sent created shock and dismay.)</p>
<p>Hence the reason that Matt was compelled to call for medical help. (the physical damage.) No wonder the gal was too ashamed to file a rape report &#8212; for that&#8217;s what Matt did to her.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Bonkti		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2017/11/30/honorshame-versus-guilt-obedience-to-authority/#comment-2297328</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Bonkti]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 02 Dec 2017 04:34:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/?p=73515#comment-2297328</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[&quot;Matt, take a cold shower and get back to me in the morning.&quot;]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Matt, take a cold shower and get back to me in the morning.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>
		By: AesopFan		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2017/11/30/honorshame-versus-guilt-obedience-to-authority/#comment-2297316</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[AesopFan]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 02 Dec 2017 04:14:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/?p=73515#comment-2297316</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[neo-neocon Says: 
December 1st, 2017 at 1:16 pm
CV:

She consented to blouse unbuttoning but not to sex. There are quite a few missing steps in there, at least in the minds of most women 
* * 
With all due respect, there are NO missing steps for many (most?) &lt;em&gt;men,&lt;/em&gt; and men in Lauer&#039;s position especially.

There may be no missing steps for women either, judging from Lizzy&#039;s link to Vanity Fair.

FWIW, It looked to me like the complainant was more upset at being &quot;dropped&quot; than by the intercourse (even as horrifying as that probably was, since she fainted -- read the VF article about what the women interviewed thought of their &quot;partners&quot;).

&quot;The woman told The Times that Mr. Lauer never made an advance toward her again and never mentioned what occurred in his office. She said she did not report the episode to NBC at the time because she believed she should have done more to stop Mr. Lauer. She left the network about a year later.&quot;]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>neo-neocon Says:<br />
December 1st, 2017 at 1:16 pm<br />
CV:</p>
<p>She consented to blouse unbuttoning but not to sex. There are quite a few missing steps in there, at least in the minds of most women<br />
* *<br />
With all due respect, there are NO missing steps for many (most?) <em>men,</em> and men in Lauer&#8217;s position especially.</p>
<p>There may be no missing steps for women either, judging from Lizzy&#8217;s link to Vanity Fair.</p>
<p>FWIW, It looked to me like the complainant was more upset at being &#8220;dropped&#8221; than by the intercourse (even as horrifying as that probably was, since she fainted &#8212; read the VF article about what the women interviewed thought of their &#8220;partners&#8221;).</p>
<p>&#8220;The woman told The Times that Mr. Lauer never made an advance toward her again and never mentioned what occurred in his office. She said she did not report the episode to NBC at the time because she believed she should have done more to stop Mr. Lauer. She left the network about a year later.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>
		By: neo-neocon		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2017/11/30/honorshame-versus-guilt-obedience-to-authority/#comment-2297067</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[neo-neocon]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Dec 2017 18:16:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/?p=73515#comment-2297067</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[CV:

She consented to blouse unbuttoning but not to sex.  There are quite a few missing steps in there, at least in the minds of most women (grown women, at that).  Ever hear of the old &quot;first base, second base, third...&quot;?  If I recall correctly, it was fourth base that constituted intercourse.  And lest you think that&#039;s hopelessly old-fashioned, women do not ordinarily think that unbuttoning a blouse gives a green light to immediate sex, particularly when the couple is not married or even any kind of a couple at all---when it&#039;s the first time they&#039;ve had anything sexual to do with each other.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>CV:</p>
<p>She consented to blouse unbuttoning but not to sex.  There are quite a few missing steps in there, at least in the minds of most women (grown women, at that).  Ever hear of the old &#8220;first base, second base, third&#8230;&#8221;?  If I recall correctly, it was fourth base that constituted intercourse.  And lest you think that&#8217;s hopelessly old-fashioned, women do not ordinarily think that unbuttoning a blouse gives a green light to immediate sex, particularly when the couple is not married or even any kind of a couple at all&#8212;when it&#8217;s the first time they&#8217;ve had anything sexual to do with each other.</p>
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		<title>
		By: neo-neocon		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2017/11/30/honorshame-versus-guilt-obedience-to-authority/#comment-2297065</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[neo-neocon]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Dec 2017 18:07:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/?p=73515#comment-2297065</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Mr. Frank:

Women have long been in the workplace with men, just in subordinate roles. The men were the doctors, the women the nurses.  Lots of hanky-panky there.  The men were the executives, the women the secretaries.  I&#039;m sure I don&#039;t have to tell you how much sex there was.

For example, this song from the Broadway musical &quot;How to Succeed in Business Without Really Trying,&quot; opened on Broadway circa 1961 (this is from the 1967 film version).

&lt;iframe width=&quot;460&quot; height=&quot;315&quot; src=&quot;https://www.youtube.com/embed/z-J_KuNqWhw?start=141&quot; frameborder=&quot;0&quot; gesture=&quot;media&quot; allow=&quot;encrypted-media&quot; allowfullscreen&gt;&lt;/iframe&gt;]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mr. Frank:</p>
<p>Women have long been in the workplace with men, just in subordinate roles. The men were the doctors, the women the nurses.  Lots of hanky-panky there.  The men were the executives, the women the secretaries.  I&#8217;m sure I don&#8217;t have to tell you how much sex there was.</p>
<p>For example, this song from the Broadway musical &#8220;How to Succeed in Business Without Really Trying,&#8221; opened on Broadway circa 1961 (this is from the 1967 film version).</p>
<p><iframe width="460" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/z-J_KuNqWhw?start=141" frameborder="0" gesture="media" allow="encrypted-media" allowfullscreen></iframe></p>
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		<title>
		By: Mike K		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2017/11/30/honorshame-versus-guilt-obedience-to-authority/#comment-2297040</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Mike K]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Dec 2017 17:04:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/?p=73515#comment-2297040</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[&quot;There are whole cultures that seem to run that way–called “honor/shame” cultures–but ours is not ordinarily one of them.&quot;

Originally, civilization was organized around a shame/honor principle. If you were harmed or your family was harmed, you got revenge or you prevented the act yourself, if you were head of the family or the enforcer wing of the family.

Eventually, as civilization &quot;progressed,&quot; we turned that responsibility over to authority. We became an &quot;authority culture&quot; where revenge and prevention were deferred from the individual to the authority.

Recently, we have become a &quot;victim culture&quot; in which being a victim gave a sort of moral authority to the victim. In fact, this has progressed to the point that victims may magnify their victimhood to obtain more authority.

It may become necessary, as the victim culture progresses, to return to the shame/honor culture. We already see some moves this way with CCW and &quot;stand your ground&quot; laws.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;There are whole cultures that seem to run that way–called “honor/shame” cultures–but ours is not ordinarily one of them.&#8221;</p>
<p>Originally, civilization was organized around a shame/honor principle. If you were harmed or your family was harmed, you got revenge or you prevented the act yourself, if you were head of the family or the enforcer wing of the family.</p>
<p>Eventually, as civilization &#8220;progressed,&#8221; we turned that responsibility over to authority. We became an &#8220;authority culture&#8221; where revenge and prevention were deferred from the individual to the authority.</p>
<p>Recently, we have become a &#8220;victim culture&#8221; in which being a victim gave a sort of moral authority to the victim. In fact, this has progressed to the point that victims may magnify their victimhood to obtain more authority.</p>
<p>It may become necessary, as the victim culture progresses, to return to the shame/honor culture. We already see some moves this way with CCW and &#8220;stand your ground&#8221; laws.</p>
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