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	Comments on: The Spacey protection pattern	</title>
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	<link>https://thenewneo.com/2017/11/04/the-spacey-protection-pattern/</link>
	<description>A blog about political change, among other things</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Mon, 06 Nov 2017 20:55:45 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>
		By: AesopFan		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2017/11/04/the-spacey-protection-pattern/#comment-2274026</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[AesopFan]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Nov 2017 20:55:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/?p=72882#comment-2274026</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[&quot;I find it interesting that he considered outing a gay man against his will&lt;b&gt; to be a greater offense &lt;/b&gt;than keeping mum about his own sexual harassment at that man’s hands (literally at his hands) and facilitating future behavior of the same sort.

...But it seems to me that once someone is doing that sort of thing to random people in a bar, the question of outing is secondary to the question of calling him on his behavior.&quot;
* * *
This though underlies much of the unethical behavior of people-in-groups.  I&#039;m specifically reminded of the hospitals, clinics, and other doctors who allowed incompetent, even deadly, practitioners to continue because calling them out (and culling them out) would &quot;reflect badly&quot; on the institution that was seen as more important than the victims.

Another example is the horrifying degree to which people will allow criminal and often despicable behavior by Muslims (Rotherham) or illegal-immigrants-committing-felonies, because prosecuting / stopping them would be &quot;Islamophobic&quot; or &quot;uncompassionate&quot; -- the perpetrator-group, again, being deemed more important than the victims.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;I find it interesting that he considered outing a gay man against his will<b> to be a greater offense </b>than keeping mum about his own sexual harassment at that man’s hands (literally at his hands) and facilitating future behavior of the same sort.</p>
<p>&#8230;But it seems to me that once someone is doing that sort of thing to random people in a bar, the question of outing is secondary to the question of calling him on his behavior.&#8221;<br />
* * *<br />
This though underlies much of the unethical behavior of people-in-groups.  I&#8217;m specifically reminded of the hospitals, clinics, and other doctors who allowed incompetent, even deadly, practitioners to continue because calling them out (and culling them out) would &#8220;reflect badly&#8221; on the institution that was seen as more important than the victims.</p>
<p>Another example is the horrifying degree to which people will allow criminal and often despicable behavior by Muslims (Rotherham) or illegal-immigrants-committing-felonies, because prosecuting / stopping them would be &#8220;Islamophobic&#8221; or &#8220;uncompassionate&#8221; &#8212; the perpetrator-group, again, being deemed more important than the victims.</p>
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		<title>
		By: TommyJay		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2017/11/04/the-spacey-protection-pattern/#comment-2273918</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[TommyJay]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Nov 2017 18:39:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/?p=72882#comment-2273918</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[There&#039;s a few interesting points here taken out of order.

Was the journalist off the record at the time he was groped?  Clearly the interview was over.  It may not sound like much to us, but I think it is rare that a journalist reneges on such a claim.
________

Not speaking from personal experience, I think the gay community can put into two groups.  Those that engage in PnP and those that don&#039;t.  Party and Play refers to crowds, loud music, lots of drugs; and lots of indiscriminant sex.  I think there is an element of this in the Spacey allegations.
________

The dynamic between Spacey and the journalist reminds me of the film &quot;Almost Famous.&quot;  The stars are wary of journalists because the salacious sells.  But they need the journalist to inflate their public persona and make them look cool.  So an effective means to this end is to bring the journalist inside their inner circle and into their parties.

The mentor to the very young music journalist in the film says:

&quot;You CANNOT make friends with the rock stars.&quot;
    ...
&quot;And they&#039;ll buy you drinks, you&#039;ll meet girls, they&#039;ll try to fly you places for free, offer you drugs... I know. It sounds great. But they are not your friends.&quot;

Later in the film the mentor says:

&quot;Aw, man. You made friends with them. See, friendship is the booze they feed you. They want you to get drunk on feeling like you belong.&quot;
     ...
&quot;My advice to you. I know you think those guys are your friends. You wanna be a true friend to them? Be honest, and unmerciful.&quot;]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There&#8217;s a few interesting points here taken out of order.</p>
<p>Was the journalist off the record at the time he was groped?  Clearly the interview was over.  It may not sound like much to us, but I think it is rare that a journalist reneges on such a claim.<br />
________</p>
<p>Not speaking from personal experience, I think the gay community can put into two groups.  Those that engage in PnP and those that don&#8217;t.  Party and Play refers to crowds, loud music, lots of drugs; and lots of indiscriminant sex.  I think there is an element of this in the Spacey allegations.<br />
________</p>
<p>The dynamic between Spacey and the journalist reminds me of the film &#8220;Almost Famous.&#8221;  The stars are wary of journalists because the salacious sells.  But they need the journalist to inflate their public persona and make them look cool.  So an effective means to this end is to bring the journalist inside their inner circle and into their parties.</p>
<p>The mentor to the very young music journalist in the film says:</p>
<p>&#8220;You CANNOT make friends with the rock stars.&#8221;<br />
    &#8230;<br />
&#8220;And they&#8217;ll buy you drinks, you&#8217;ll meet girls, they&#8217;ll try to fly you places for free, offer you drugs&#8230; I know. It sounds great. But they are not your friends.&#8221;</p>
<p>Later in the film the mentor says:</p>
<p>&#8220;Aw, man. You made friends with them. See, friendship is the booze they feed you. They want you to get drunk on feeling like you belong.&#8221;<br />
     &#8230;<br />
&#8220;My advice to you. I know you think those guys are your friends. You wanna be a true friend to them? Be honest, and unmerciful.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>
		By: Gordon		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2017/11/04/the-spacey-protection-pattern/#comment-2273537</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Gordon]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Nov 2017 03:05:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/?p=72882#comment-2273537</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[The reporter was willing to cover for Spacey because Spacey has the right opinions. If Spacey were a brilliant actor, impressionist, director of the Old Vic and star of a hit TV show, and a conservative, this would have been seen by the reporter as His Chance To Show The World What a Monster That Fascist Kevin Spacey Is.

Note how Harvey&#039;s first reaction to the public charges was to tell us that he was going to take on the NRA and Win! and thus burnish his credentials of having the correct opinions. And then all would be forgiven.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The reporter was willing to cover for Spacey because Spacey has the right opinions. If Spacey were a brilliant actor, impressionist, director of the Old Vic and star of a hit TV show, and a conservative, this would have been seen by the reporter as His Chance To Show The World What a Monster That Fascist Kevin Spacey Is.</p>
<p>Note how Harvey&#8217;s first reaction to the public charges was to tell us that he was going to take on the NRA and Win! and thus burnish his credentials of having the correct opinions. And then all would be forgiven.</p>
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		<title>
		By: The Other Chuck		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2017/11/04/the-spacey-protection-pattern/#comment-2273351</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[The Other Chuck]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 05 Nov 2017 18:23:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/?p=72882#comment-2273351</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I see echoes of Oscar Wilde in this. Of his flamboyant excesses he said:

&lt;i&gt;&quot;It&#039;s not whether I did it or not that&#039;s important, but whether people believed I did it.&lt;/i&gt;

Eventually they believed it, with tragic results for Wilde.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I see echoes of Oscar Wilde in this. Of his flamboyant excesses he said:</p>
<p><i>&#8220;It&#8217;s not whether I did it or not that&#8217;s important, but whether people believed I did it.</i></p>
<p>Eventually they believed it, with tragic results for Wilde.</p>
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		<title>
		By: neo-neocon		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2017/11/04/the-spacey-protection-pattern/#comment-2273341</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[neo-neocon]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 05 Nov 2017 18:04:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/?p=72882#comment-2273341</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Caedmon:

I see little resemblance between the two hypotheticals in terms of the ethical dilemma involved.

Your hypothetical has to do with (left-defined) thoughtcrime.  This need not be reported because it harms no one.  The Spacey incident wasn&#039;t about his being gay (which certainly did not need to be reported), it was about &lt;i&gt;acts&lt;/i&gt; of unwarranted sexual harassment and even actions that would be considered minor sexual assault.  These are grounds for prosecution, either civil or perhaps criminal in the case of the latter.  It is also pretty clear that, since the reporter unequivocally conveyed the idea that the touchings were unwanted by him, that one could conclude that Spacey was doing this to other people.

Thoughts and acts are very very different, are treated differently under the law, and there is a very different ethical duty involved.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Caedmon:</p>
<p>I see little resemblance between the two hypotheticals in terms of the ethical dilemma involved.</p>
<p>Your hypothetical has to do with (left-defined) thoughtcrime.  This need not be reported because it harms no one.  The Spacey incident wasn&#8217;t about his being gay (which certainly did not need to be reported), it was about <i>acts</i> of unwarranted sexual harassment and even actions that would be considered minor sexual assault.  These are grounds for prosecution, either civil or perhaps criminal in the case of the latter.  It is also pretty clear that, since the reporter unequivocally conveyed the idea that the touchings were unwanted by him, that one could conclude that Spacey was doing this to other people.</p>
<p>Thoughts and acts are very very different, are treated differently under the law, and there is a very different ethical duty involved.</p>
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		<title>
		By: neo-neocon		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2017/11/04/the-spacey-protection-pattern/#comment-2273337</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[neo-neocon]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 05 Nov 2017 17:59:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/?p=72882#comment-2273337</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Stephen Ippolito:

I always liked Spacey&#039;s looks, and his acting too.

He was one of the few actors today I thought was interesting, and he did GREAT impressions.

Troubled souls can be talented.  He seems to be one.  I really think the guy absolutely must stop drinking, and then some of this behavior may get under control.  Because it seems he&#039;s been way out of control for a long time.  What a mess.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Stephen Ippolito:</p>
<p>I always liked Spacey&#8217;s looks, and his acting too.</p>
<p>He was one of the few actors today I thought was interesting, and he did GREAT impressions.</p>
<p>Troubled souls can be talented.  He seems to be one.  I really think the guy absolutely must stop drinking, and then some of this behavior may get under control.  Because it seems he&#8217;s been way out of control for a long time.  What a mess.</p>
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		<title>
		By: MollyNH		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2017/11/04/the-spacey-protection-pattern/#comment-2273334</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[MollyNH]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 05 Nov 2017 17:57:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/?p=72882#comment-2273334</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Lol, Steve]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Lol, Steve</p>
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		<title>
		By: Stephen Ippolito		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2017/11/04/the-spacey-protection-pattern/#comment-2273221</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Stephen Ippolito]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 05 Nov 2017 09:12:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/?p=72882#comment-2273221</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Thanks, Molly.

I fear that, as well as my life-long short-sightedness, I may be on my way to developing &quot;Spacey-pattern-baldness&quot;]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks, Molly.</p>
<p>I fear that, as well as my life-long short-sightedness, I may be on my way to developing &#8220;Spacey-pattern-baldness&#8221;</p>
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		<title>
		By: Caedmon		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2017/11/04/the-spacey-protection-pattern/#comment-2273213</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Caedmon]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 05 Nov 2017 08:35:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/?p=72882#comment-2273213</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Yes, it is rather like a problem form an ethics exam, so let&#039;s reframe it slightly: 

I am a young British journalist and I go to interview a celebrated crime novelist. After the interview she invites me to join her for a drink. During her second gin and tonic it emerges she is not keen on immigration, and during her third some of her remarks are definitely coloured by racial prejudice. 

What to do? This was private conversation not an interview, yet she knows I am a journalist who is going to write about her. Do I ruin her, while getting a much bigger story for myself, or shall I be discreet?]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, it is rather like a problem form an ethics exam, so let&#8217;s reframe it slightly: </p>
<p>I am a young British journalist and I go to interview a celebrated crime novelist. After the interview she invites me to join her for a drink. During her second gin and tonic it emerges she is not keen on immigration, and during her third some of her remarks are definitely coloured by racial prejudice. </p>
<p>What to do? This was private conversation not an interview, yet she knows I am a journalist who is going to write about her. Do I ruin her, while getting a much bigger story for myself, or shall I be discreet?</p>
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		<title>
		By: MollyNH		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2017/11/04/the-spacey-protection-pattern/#comment-2273132</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[MollyNH]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 05 Nov 2017 02:34:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/?p=72882#comment-2273132</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Steve if you can&#039;t readily see Spacey&#039;s toupee, it&#039;s time to get those eyes checked ;)]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Steve if you can&#8217;t readily see Spacey&#8217;s toupee, it&#8217;s time to get those eyes checked 😉</p>
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