That Trump is not the author of the GOP’s downfall, nor is he responsible to write legislation. He is neither a genius playing sixth dimensional chess nor an idiot wrecking the world.

The GOP establishment offed itself before he even came into the picture, by its own hand. Hence, the outcome of the election.

“If Trump becomes the gateway drug for Dems to blow out the electorate in 2018 or 2020, as they were almost about to with Hillary in 2016, do you still support Trump?”

Ask me when that actually happens. As the anti-Trump people have predicted approximately 792 of the last zero Trump political collapses I won’t be holding my breath.

He plainly has a lot to learn- but unlike the people of the GOP establishment, he seems capable of actually learning.

Perhaps, but I think we can make some pretty good guesses. Evidence suggests that he had a knack for infuriating the exact same sort of people who made Trump the nominee and then the president-like me- so my conclusion is that he’d have gotten blown out in the typical Republican fashion, like others before him. I’ve not forgotten the occasion when one of his staff casually mentioned that he believed Americans were lazy, thus helping explain why Rubio lept at the chance to join the Gang of Eight bill to import more immigrants moar.

I think all that ended his 2016 chances before they began- but I presume this all been debated to death before.

Beating someone in the primaries is a very different animal than winning the general. Each party hopes that the person who does the first can do the second, of course. But it doesn’t follow. The traits and principles and positions a person has to have to do the first are somewhat different than the ones the person needs to accomplish the second.

That’s why, traditionally, many candidates have been more extreme in their views during primaries and then tacked to the center in the general. It’s also why the GOP has often argued for nominating a centrist rather than a conservative—the need to appeal to the middle in the general. Needless to say, those arguments don’t always pan out (McCain, for example), because elections are more complex and difficult to predict or generalize about than that.

I will be very blunt, though—I think Rubio would have cleaned Hillary’s clock, for various reasons I’ve written about before. But we will never never know.

That’s fine, as people honestly disagree about this question.

But these other candidates weren’t even able to beat Trump in the primaries, despite his obvious baggage and despite the obvious hostility much of the Republican party had for him.

I see essentially zero chance any one of them could have won Michigan, Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, etc, – especially if the establishment had successfully torpedoed the Trump campaign in one their endless schemes. Myriad Trump voters would have simply stayed home on election day, as they had in previous elections- or voted for the democrat, as they usually did.

Shrug. I presume this has also been discussed many times here.

You’re relatively new here, so you may not realize that we’ve discussed that business of “no other GOP candidate could have won” many times before.

I do not agree, and have written many times on the subject, most recently in this thread, in my response to John Guilfoyle (see this and this).

Big Maq, let me say this for the fourth time. Wasting time blaming either Trump or the conservatives, or even Ryan for the failure to move the AHCA out of the House is counter-productive.

I did say the RINO’s are to blame– for creating the false expectation that they were on board to repeal the ACA. As others have surmised, I think even neo raised the question, the liberal GOP never intended to repeal Obamacare. At least, that’s what it looks like.

As to the strategy of peeling off members of the FC, Trump claimed they were 10-15 votes short, which means some of the FC would have voted for the AHCA.

I’m not convinced that even Republicans are as motivated to repeal Obamacare now as they were 7 years ago, or 2012 or 2016 as the full effects of Obamacare started to be felt. If you had company sponsored health insurance you may have felt little or no effect.

But if it makes you feel better blame Trump. I’m not sure what’s to gain from the exercise. As I see it, the FC is under increased pressure to find a compromise– not so much by being primaried, but by becoming irrelevant next year when a few Democrats may take up Trump’s offer to help craft a replacement.

As to failures, I don’t consider it a failure, or even a setback. I understand why they went first with AHCA, but I think it’s a good thing this is taking longer.

I’m listening to Lou Dobbs right now, and the blame game is shifting to blaming Ryan and Priebus. We’re back to process and not substance. Yuk.

To borrow that rather imperfect analogy of CEO, he is at the top of all the successes and failures of the organization he leads (and, right now, trump IS the leader of the GOP).

One failure can be explained as the fault of an underling. Maybe even a second on something “unforeseen”.

But, once failures begin to accumulate, one has to wonder if it is the underlings, or exogenous events, etc., whatsoever.
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Xennady and Brian can place the entirety of blame on Ryan and the GOP all they want.

Of course they get blame!!!

BUT, they didn’t work entirely alone.

To leave trump innocent in all this is more than naive.
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IDK.

Neo made a great point about the pace this took.

It was treated as irrelevant, with an argument that didn’t indicate any IRL experience in convincing any oversight bodies at any senior level.

Wish life were that simple, but as long as folks think it actually is so, they will forever be disappointed.
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Seems, still at this point, there’s nothing that will convince many in trump’s base, as there is nothing that trump can do wrong (shoot someone on 5th Ave and all that).

Outside that core, these trump supporters should know that the blame game trump (and they) play just doesn’t provide them with any convincing credibility nor trust – something they need (even if they don’t realize it) to get things they want done (so long as we are still a democracy).

If Trump becomes the gateway drug for Dems to blow out the electorate in 2018 or 2020, as they were almost about to with Hillary in 2016, do you still support Trump?

I’ve already expressed my opinion about who should get the lion’s share of the blame for this fiasco, and I won’t repeat it.

But I will note that the actual alternative to Trump wasn’t a different Republican- it was Hillary Clinton. None of the other candidates had a snowball’s chance of beating her, because they all had the same failed political playbook handed down from the Bush administration. That is, amnesty, open borders, crony capitalism, and nation building. Foreign nations, not America.

That is, “conservatism.” The real disaster for all THAT was the Bush administration, long before Trump, because “conservatism” gave us disaster. No thank you.

“Trump’s promise to let the current law “explode” so he can blame the Democrats is both cruel — take your eyes of the political horse race for a moment folks — there are real lives at stake — and incredibly naive. If it explodes it’s on him, now. That’s what you sign up for when you:re the freaking president.”
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Real lives at stake? Cruel? Gosh, did the people who had their lives upended by the destruction of the individual health insurance market by Obamacare count?

I’d say not at all, because neither the democrats nor the GOP ever seemed to care, and still don’t. Those folks tend to vote GOP- Michelle Malkin lost her insurance, for example- so whatevs. But democrat-voting 0care recipients might lose insurance- oh, that’s just totally unacceptable, somehow.

And no, Trump is not responsible for Obamacare, period. For one thing he’s still working to replace it. For another he didn’t write it, and no Republican voted for it. The impending collapse is all the fault of the left.

“Character is destiny. Get ready for a lot more disappointment”

You mean like how George Bush the first casually broke his word not to raise taxes? Or how his son openly betrayed his Oath of Office to enforce US law when he refused to secure the US border and stop illegal immigration?

I don’t even have to mention democrats to express my disappointment. So far, Trump has been a glorious breath of fresh air, compared to his predecessors.

Yugely.