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	<title>
	Comments on: On moderate Muslims and the concept of &#8220;religiosity&#8221; [Part I]	</title>
	<atom:link href="https://thenewneo.com/2016/03/28/on-moderate-muslims-and-the-concept-of-religiosity-part-i/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>https://thenewneo.com/2016/03/28/on-moderate-muslims-and-the-concept-of-religiosity-part-i/</link>
	<description>A blog about political change, among other things</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Wed, 30 Mar 2016 20:48:26 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>
		By: Richard Aubrey		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2016/03/28/on-moderate-muslims-and-the-concept-of-religiosity-part-i/#comment-1039907</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Richard Aubrey]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Mar 2016 17:02:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/?p=58271#comment-1039907</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Ike.  A moderate Muslim is one who, in large and concentrated numbers, does not generate radicalized Muslims.  Does not shelter them when they show up.  Does not decline to call the cops.
It&#039;s for this reason that the solution could be Very Serious.
Is there anything the Europeans have tried that worked?  The best they&#039;ve got going for them is imploring Islam to reform itself.  Meantime....
But I didn&#039;t design the problem.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ike.  A moderate Muslim is one who, in large and concentrated numbers, does not generate radicalized Muslims.  Does not shelter them when they show up.  Does not decline to call the cops.<br />
It&#8217;s for this reason that the solution could be Very Serious.<br />
Is there anything the Europeans have tried that worked?  The best they&#8217;ve got going for them is imploring Islam to reform itself.  Meantime&#8230;.<br />
But I didn&#8217;t design the problem.</p>
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		<title>
		By: CatoRenasci		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2016/03/28/on-moderate-muslims-and-the-concept-of-religiosity-part-i/#comment-1038111</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[CatoRenasci]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Mar 2016 01:58:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/?p=58271#comment-1038111</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Winston Churchill put it succinctly, and perhaps best, in &lt;i&gt;The River War&lt;/i&gt;, Volume 2, pp 248-250 (1899):

&quot;How dreadful are the curses which Mohammedanism lays on its votaries! Besides the fanatical frenzy, which is as dangerous in a man as hydrophobia in a dog, there is this fearful fatalistic apathy. The effects are apparent in many countries, improvident habits, slovenly systems of agriculture, sluggish methods of commerce, and insecurity of property exist wherever the followers of the Prophet rule or live.

A degraded sensualism deprives this life of its grace and refinement, the next of its dignity and sanctity. The fact that in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to some man as his absolute property, either as a child, a wife, or a concubine, must delay the final extinction of slavery until the faith of Islam has ceased to be a great power among men.

Individual Muslims may show splendid qualities, but the influence of the religion paralyses the social development of those who follow it.

No stronger retrograde force exists in the world. Far from being moribund, Mohammedanism is a militant and proselytizing faith. It has already spread throughout Central Africa, raising fearless warriors at every step; and were it not that Christianity is sheltered in the strong arms of science, the science against which it had vainly struggled, the civilization of modern Europe might fall, as fell the civilization of ancient Rome .&quot;]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Winston Churchill put it succinctly, and perhaps best, in <i>The River War</i>, Volume 2, pp 248-250 (1899):</p>
<p>&#8220;How dreadful are the curses which Mohammedanism lays on its votaries! Besides the fanatical frenzy, which is as dangerous in a man as hydrophobia in a dog, there is this fearful fatalistic apathy. The effects are apparent in many countries, improvident habits, slovenly systems of agriculture, sluggish methods of commerce, and insecurity of property exist wherever the followers of the Prophet rule or live.</p>
<p>A degraded sensualism deprives this life of its grace and refinement, the next of its dignity and sanctity. The fact that in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to some man as his absolute property, either as a child, a wife, or a concubine, must delay the final extinction of slavery until the faith of Islam has ceased to be a great power among men.</p>
<p>Individual Muslims may show splendid qualities, but the influence of the religion paralyses the social development of those who follow it.</p>
<p>No stronger retrograde force exists in the world. Far from being moribund, Mohammedanism is a militant and proselytizing faith. It has already spread throughout Central Africa, raising fearless warriors at every step; and were it not that Christianity is sheltered in the strong arms of science, the science against which it had vainly struggled, the civilization of modern Europe might fall, as fell the civilization of ancient Rome .&#8221;</p>
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		<title>
		By: Ike		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2016/03/28/on-moderate-muslims-and-the-concept-of-religiosity-part-i/#comment-1037401</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ike]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Mar 2016 20:44:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/?p=58271#comment-1037401</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Two corrections:  In the first part, it should read, &quot;...the problem of...&quot; not &quot;...is...&quot;.  In the second, it should read, &quot;...is not genuinely in opposition&quot;.  My apologies.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Two corrections:  In the first part, it should read, &#8220;&#8230;the problem of&#8230;&#8221; not &#8220;&#8230;is&#8230;&#8221;.  In the second, it should read, &#8220;&#8230;is not genuinely in opposition&#8221;.  My apologies.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Ike		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2016/03/28/on-moderate-muslims-and-the-concept-of-religiosity-part-i/#comment-1037396</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ike]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Mar 2016 20:41:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/?p=58271#comment-1037396</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Richard Aubrey.
I&#039;m not certain that I understand your comment, sir.  Frankly, I am unable to propose even as a thought experiment in my own head any approach to this national security problem that would not be considered - by most if not all including myself - a Very Serious Solution.  Assuming that are in fact such people as might be labeled &quot;moderate Muslims&quot; and further assuming that they would not assist in the supply and conduct of any attack here in the US, we still have the problem is distinguishing the moderates from the radicals, so that any policy might likewise distinguish between them in the way in which we treat them, while still providing protection of our non-Muslim population from attacks.

neo:  With all due respect, I doubt the existence of any significant number of &quot;moderate Germans&quot; during the Nazi era, who were not laying so low that they could not be discerned.  As a practical matter, there isn&#039;t much difference between such a group and those who were indifferent.  The White Rose was a tiny fraction of the German nation.  The Soviet spy apparat in Nazi Germany was larger than the entirety of the actual civilian opposition to the Nazi regime, until of course the war ended and the Allies occupied Germany.  Then, all the &quot;moderate Germans&quot; protested to our occupying forces that they were cowed by the Nazi terror into submission.  Entirely too convenient to be believed, but irrelevant because one who doesn&#039;t actively resist is genuinely in opposition.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Richard Aubrey.<br />
I&#8217;m not certain that I understand your comment, sir.  Frankly, I am unable to propose even as a thought experiment in my own head any approach to this national security problem that would not be considered &#8211; by most if not all including myself &#8211; a Very Serious Solution.  Assuming that are in fact such people as might be labeled &#8220;moderate Muslims&#8221; and further assuming that they would not assist in the supply and conduct of any attack here in the US, we still have the problem is distinguishing the moderates from the radicals, so that any policy might likewise distinguish between them in the way in which we treat them, while still providing protection of our non-Muslim population from attacks.</p>
<p>neo:  With all due respect, I doubt the existence of any significant number of &#8220;moderate Germans&#8221; during the Nazi era, who were not laying so low that they could not be discerned.  As a practical matter, there isn&#8217;t much difference between such a group and those who were indifferent.  The White Rose was a tiny fraction of the German nation.  The Soviet spy apparat in Nazi Germany was larger than the entirety of the actual civilian opposition to the Nazi regime, until of course the war ended and the Allies occupied Germany.  Then, all the &#8220;moderate Germans&#8221; protested to our occupying forces that they were cowed by the Nazi terror into submission.  Entirely too convenient to be believed, but irrelevant because one who doesn&#8217;t actively resist is genuinely in opposition.</p>
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		<title>
		By: DNW		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2016/03/28/on-moderate-muslims-and-the-concept-of-religiosity-part-i/#comment-1037002</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[DNW]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Mar 2016 17:48:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/?p=58271#comment-1037002</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[That renunciation only works in a relatively libertarian society wherein the vast majority have the same secular life-ways and values and wherein the idiots can be kept at social arm&#039;s length and made to eat the stews they cook up, themselves.

They start sleeping on your front lawn and and presenting themselves as social peers deserving of tax funded solidarity, and all bets are off.

Modern Liberalism, kills itself. Unfortunately it kills anyone else that comes into unwilling contact with it as well.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That renunciation only works in a relatively libertarian society wherein the vast majority have the same secular life-ways and values and wherein the idiots can be kept at social arm&#8217;s length and made to eat the stews they cook up, themselves.</p>
<p>They start sleeping on your front lawn and and presenting themselves as social peers deserving of tax funded solidarity, and all bets are off.</p>
<p>Modern Liberalism, kills itself. Unfortunately it kills anyone else that comes into unwilling contact with it as well.</p>
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		<title>
		By: neo-neocon		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2016/03/28/on-moderate-muslims-and-the-concept-of-religiosity-part-i/#comment-1036949</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[neo-neocon]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Mar 2016 17:27:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/?p=58271#comment-1036949</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Artfldgr:

Incorrect analogy.

Those were &quot;moderate Nazis.&quot;  

The proper analogy is &quot;moderate Germans&quot;---who were &lt;i&gt;anti-&lt;/i&gt;Nazi but not activist.  The activists were the underground or other anti-Nazi activists, some of whom got killed.  There were many anti-Nazi Germans who laid low.  They were intimidated into silence, and afraid, and hoped to merely survive, but they hated the Nazis.  There were plenty of people like that, and many of them died because they were residing in Germany and/or even fought in the war because they were drafted.  I have said that in wartime that is what happens.

You may recall that the Nazis only ever got about a third of German votes in a fair election.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Artfldgr:</p>
<p>Incorrect analogy.</p>
<p>Those were &#8220;moderate Nazis.&#8221;  </p>
<p>The proper analogy is &#8220;moderate Germans&#8221;&#8212;who were <i>anti-</i>Nazi but not activist.  The activists were the underground or other anti-Nazi activists, some of whom got killed.  There were many anti-Nazi Germans who laid low.  They were intimidated into silence, and afraid, and hoped to merely survive, but they hated the Nazis.  There were plenty of people like that, and many of them died because they were residing in Germany and/or even fought in the war because they were drafted.  I have said that in wartime that is what happens.</p>
<p>You may recall that the Nazis only ever got about a third of German votes in a fair election.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Sharon W		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2016/03/28/on-moderate-muslims-and-the-concept-of-religiosity-part-i/#comment-1036910</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Sharon W]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Mar 2016 17:14:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/?p=58271#comment-1036910</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[A Christian that follows historic Christianity in our present time (and for some time) is no threat to the general populace.  The command is to &quot;love your neighbor&quot;, &quot;offer your other cheek&quot;, &quot;walk the extra mile&quot; and &quot;forgive your enemies&quot;.  The ascendancy of the western culture that is predicated on the 10 commandments is replete with vanquishing those that wouldn&#039;t abide those commandments; that is true.  Since then wars have been fought in coming to the aide of our allies and opposing evil.  Historic Islam is a threat to western culture.  That is the distinction for me.  We are recipients of a world that has been greatly sacrificed for, by our predecessors.  We will have to resolve to fight this foe in defending our legacy or be overcome.  I am in agreement with those that call for an end to Muslim immigration at this present time (and should have been already our protocol since 9/11).  Yes, innocent Muslims will suffer while they sort it out.  That is the unfortunate reality.  Until the moderate Muslim is made to suffer and deal with that family member that is making life miserable for the majority, nothing will be resolved.  Are there ever any simple or easy solutions?]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A Christian that follows historic Christianity in our present time (and for some time) is no threat to the general populace.  The command is to &#8220;love your neighbor&#8221;, &#8220;offer your other cheek&#8221;, &#8220;walk the extra mile&#8221; and &#8220;forgive your enemies&#8221;.  The ascendancy of the western culture that is predicated on the 10 commandments is replete with vanquishing those that wouldn&#8217;t abide those commandments; that is true.  Since then wars have been fought in coming to the aide of our allies and opposing evil.  Historic Islam is a threat to western culture.  That is the distinction for me.  We are recipients of a world that has been greatly sacrificed for, by our predecessors.  We will have to resolve to fight this foe in defending our legacy or be overcome.  I am in agreement with those that call for an end to Muslim immigration at this present time (and should have been already our protocol since 9/11).  Yes, innocent Muslims will suffer while they sort it out.  That is the unfortunate reality.  Until the moderate Muslim is made to suffer and deal with that family member that is making life miserable for the majority, nothing will be resolved.  Are there ever any simple or easy solutions?</p>
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		<title>
		By: Milwaukee		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2016/03/28/on-moderate-muslims-and-the-concept-of-religiosity-part-i/#comment-1036816</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Milwaukee]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Mar 2016 16:30:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/?p=58271#comment-1036816</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Moderate Mohammedans aren&#039;t going to kill me because I&#039;m Christian. Or because I&#039;m hoping to grow in devoutness as a Christian. The more intently a Mohammedan follows the directions of the Prophet Mohammed, the more likely they are to feel the need to kill me, because that&#039;s how they roll. They also kill &quot;moderate Muslims&quot; for being too moderate. This is why the moderates won&#039;t try to reign in the radicals. Call out one radical and his brother will kill you. The fellow who killed the newsagent waited for the police to show up and surrendered peacefully. (None of this &#039;hands up, don&#039;t shoot&#039; shit.)

The difference between a religious fanatic and me is a religious fanatic believes in God more than I do. 

Remember a few years back, when a French Rabbi and his two sons were killed by a Mohammedan? The killer also killed two moderate Muslims because there weren&#039;t being Muslim enough.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Moderate Mohammedans aren&#8217;t going to kill me because I&#8217;m Christian. Or because I&#8217;m hoping to grow in devoutness as a Christian. The more intently a Mohammedan follows the directions of the Prophet Mohammed, the more likely they are to feel the need to kill me, because that&#8217;s how they roll. They also kill &#8220;moderate Muslims&#8221; for being too moderate. This is why the moderates won&#8217;t try to reign in the radicals. Call out one radical and his brother will kill you. The fellow who killed the newsagent waited for the police to show up and surrendered peacefully. (None of this &#8216;hands up, don&#8217;t shoot&#8217; shit.)</p>
<p>The difference between a religious fanatic and me is a religious fanatic believes in God more than I do. </p>
<p>Remember a few years back, when a French Rabbi and his two sons were killed by a Mohammedan? The killer also killed two moderate Muslims because there weren&#8217;t being Muslim enough.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Richard Aubrey		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2016/03/28/on-moderate-muslims-and-the-concept-of-religiosity-part-i/#comment-1036744</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Richard Aubrey]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Mar 2016 16:04:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/?p=58271#comment-1036744</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Ike.
We have a problem:  Whenever--in Europe at least--there is a certain number of Muslims we get; jew-bashing, gay-bashing, rape, petty crime, assault on women.  That&#039;s the good stuff.  Then we get radicalization and terror.
I understand that describing a problem which is, under most circumstances, not manageable brings accusations of recommending the Very Serious Solution.
Not my idea.  The problem was not my idea.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ike.<br />
We have a problem:  Whenever&#8211;in Europe at least&#8211;there is a certain number of Muslims we get; jew-bashing, gay-bashing, rape, petty crime, assault on women.  That&#8217;s the good stuff.  Then we get radicalization and terror.<br />
I understand that describing a problem which is, under most circumstances, not manageable brings accusations of recommending the Very Serious Solution.<br />
Not my idea.  The problem was not my idea.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Ike		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2016/03/28/on-moderate-muslims-and-the-concept-of-religiosity-part-i/#comment-1036719</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ike]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Mar 2016 15:49:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/?p=58271#comment-1036719</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Another fine exposition, Ms. Neo.  But, here is the $64,000 Question:  how can our government - famously incompetent in terms of hiring genuinely patriotic &quot;experts&quot; in foreign languages and culture - discern the &quot;irreligious&quot; Muslims who live in America from the &quot;triumphantly religious&quot; Muslims?  Bear in mind that the success rate of such a program needs to be fairly high in order to protect us from a domestic support base for Islamic terrorists&#039; attacks.  I&#039;m not being rhetorical nor critical.  I hope your Part II includes your prescription for such a program.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Another fine exposition, Ms. Neo.  But, here is the $64,000 Question:  how can our government &#8211; famously incompetent in terms of hiring genuinely patriotic &#8220;experts&#8221; in foreign languages and culture &#8211; discern the &#8220;irreligious&#8221; Muslims who live in America from the &#8220;triumphantly religious&#8221; Muslims?  Bear in mind that the success rate of such a program needs to be fairly high in order to protect us from a domestic support base for Islamic terrorists&#8217; attacks.  I&#8217;m not being rhetorical nor critical.  I hope your Part II includes your prescription for such a program.</p>
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