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	Comments on: Would courts actually &#8220;settle&#8221; the birther issue?	</title>
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	<link>https://thenewneo.com/2016/01/18/would-courts-actually-settle-the-birther-issue/</link>
	<description>A blog about political change, among other things</description>
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		<title>
		By: geokstr		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2016/01/18/would-courts-actually-settle-the-birther-issue/#comment-954951</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[geokstr]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Jan 2016 00:11:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/?p=56191#comment-954951</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Will:

Barnett wrote that as a contributor to the Volokh Conspiracy, a libertarian/conservative web site. It in no way means that WaPo agrees with them. I used to comment there for years until they made a deal with WaPo to host them and now you have to subscribe.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Will:</p>
<p>Barnett wrote that as a contributor to the Volokh Conspiracy, a libertarian/conservative web site. It in no way means that WaPo agrees with them. I used to comment there for years until they made a deal with WaPo to host them and now you have to subscribe.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Ira		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2016/01/18/would-courts-actually-settle-the-birther-issue/#comment-954774</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ira]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Jan 2016 07:25:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/?p=56191#comment-954774</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Thanks neo-neocon for succinctly describing the question I posed:

&lt;blockquote cite=&quot;&quot;&gt;Who would have standing to make a court challenge if a major political party seems bound and determined to nominate someone who probably isn’t an eligible citizen under the Constitution?&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I think the answer should be &lt;b&gt;ANY AMERICAN&lt;/b&gt; has standing because every American is entitled to the protection against not-yet-mature or potentially non-loyal government officials where the Constitution sets requirements for such officials.

By way of example, assume that Massachusetts voters elected an eight (8) year old Syrian refugee to be one of its two US senators.

We know that Article 1, Section 3, Clause 3 of the Constitution requires that to be a senator a person shall &quot;have attained to the Age of thirty Years, and been nine Years a Citizen of the United States and . . . when elected, be an Inhabitant of that State for which he shall be chosen.&quot;

We also know that even one vote can make the difference between an act of major consequence being enacted by Congress or being defeated.  (See the Cornhusker kickback.)  

I, a California resident, should have standing to obtain court protection, under the provisions of the Constitution, against the voters of Massachusetts  getting such an unqualified person into the US Senate.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks neo-neocon for succinctly describing the question I posed:</p>
<blockquote cite=""><p>Who would have standing to make a court challenge if a major political party seems bound and determined to nominate someone who probably isn’t an eligible citizen under the Constitution?</p></blockquote>
<p>I think the answer should be <b>ANY AMERICAN</b> has standing because every American is entitled to the protection against not-yet-mature or potentially non-loyal government officials where the Constitution sets requirements for such officials.</p>
<p>By way of example, assume that Massachusetts voters elected an eight (8) year old Syrian refugee to be one of its two US senators.</p>
<p>We know that Article 1, Section 3, Clause 3 of the Constitution requires that to be a senator a person shall &#8220;have attained to the Age of thirty Years, and been nine Years a Citizen of the United States and . . . when elected, be an Inhabitant of that State for which he shall be chosen.&#8221;</p>
<p>We also know that even one vote can make the difference between an act of major consequence being enacted by Congress or being defeated.  (See the Cornhusker kickback.)  </p>
<p>I, a California resident, should have standing to obtain court protection, under the provisions of the Constitution, against the voters of Massachusetts  getting such an unqualified person into the US Senate.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Will		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2016/01/18/would-courts-actually-settle-the-birther-issue/#comment-954604</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Will]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Jan 2016 19:01:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/?p=56191#comment-954604</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Randy Barnett who has pretty conservative chops as a professor at Georgetown and an authority on the Constitution says that Cruz is &quot;Natural Born&quot; and legal to run. That pretty much settles it for me, however I am not a member of the judiciary so that unfortunately means squat. This was even taken from the not so conservative Washington Post. 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2016/01/07/why-ted-cruz-is-a-natural-born-citizen/]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Randy Barnett who has pretty conservative chops as a professor at Georgetown and an authority on the Constitution says that Cruz is &#8220;Natural Born&#8221; and legal to run. That pretty much settles it for me, however I am not a member of the judiciary so that unfortunately means squat. This was even taken from the not so conservative Washington Post. </p>
<p><a href="https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2016/01/07/why-ted-cruz-is-a-natural-born-citizen/" rel="nofollow ugc">https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2016/01/07/why-ted-cruz-is-a-natural-born-citizen/</a></p>
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		<title>
		By: neo-neocon		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2016/01/18/would-courts-actually-settle-the-birther-issue/#comment-954582</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[neo-neocon]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Jan 2016 16:46:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/?p=56191#comment-954582</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[geokstr:

Without researching it, I&#039;d say off the top of my head that no, that would not work at all, because public figures running in a campaign cannot sue their opponents for defamation.  If that were allowed, we&#039;d have no end of lawsuits.  In general, public figures &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/defamation-law-made-simple-29718.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;can&#039;t sue&lt;/a&gt; for defamation unless they prove something called &quot;actual malice&quot; (which has many elements necessary and is ordinarily extremely hard to prove), and certainly that would extend to campaigns.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>geokstr:</p>
<p>Without researching it, I&#8217;d say off the top of my head that no, that would not work at all, because public figures running in a campaign cannot sue their opponents for defamation.  If that were allowed, we&#8217;d have no end of lawsuits.  In general, public figures <a href="http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/defamation-law-made-simple-29718.html" rel="nofollow">can&#8217;t sue</a> for defamation unless they prove something called &#8220;actual malice&#8221; (which has many elements necessary and is ordinarily extremely hard to prove), and certainly that would extend to campaigns.</p>
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		<title>
		By: geokstr		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2016/01/18/would-courts-actually-settle-the-birther-issue/#comment-954551</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[geokstr]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Jan 2016 13:17:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/?p=56191#comment-954551</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Plus the lying turtle who runs the Senate does not like Cruz for, among other things, calling him a liar on the Senate floor. He was more than willing to pass a resolution confirming McCain&#039;s eligibility in 2008 because he&#039;s a fellow RINO, but he&#039;s closed out that avenue for Cruz.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Plus the lying turtle who runs the Senate does not like Cruz for, among other things, calling him a liar on the Senate floor. He was more than willing to pass a resolution confirming McCain&#8217;s eligibility in 2008 because he&#8217;s a fellow RINO, but he&#8217;s closed out that avenue for Cruz.</p>
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		<title>
		By: geokstr		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2016/01/18/would-courts-actually-settle-the-birther-issue/#comment-954548</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[geokstr]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Jan 2016 13:07:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/?p=56191#comment-954548</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Neo: Let&#039;s assume for a nanosecond that Trump really wants to help Cruz clear up the issue when most likely he&#039;d rather have this Joe Btfsplk cloud perpetually haunting him. Could he come right out and accuse Cruz of fraud because he&#039;s not eligible to run, then have Cruz countersue for $1 for defamation, before a friendly judge? Could that either force or allow the judge to rule on Cruz&#039; eligibility in order to decide the case? I know that&#039;s a reach, but there is no time for a Constitutional amendment to define &quot;natural born&quot; and it would be in Cruz&#039; and this country&#039;s best interest to settle this ASAP in a way that will shut the left up. They have no other real issue, other than differences on the real issues, to tar him with.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Neo: Let&#8217;s assume for a nanosecond that Trump really wants to help Cruz clear up the issue when most likely he&#8217;d rather have this Joe Btfsplk cloud perpetually haunting him. Could he come right out and accuse Cruz of fraud because he&#8217;s not eligible to run, then have Cruz countersue for $1 for defamation, before a friendly judge? Could that either force or allow the judge to rule on Cruz&#8217; eligibility in order to decide the case? I know that&#8217;s a reach, but there is no time for a Constitutional amendment to define &#8220;natural born&#8221; and it would be in Cruz&#8217; and this country&#8217;s best interest to settle this ASAP in a way that will shut the left up. They have no other real issue, other than differences on the real issues, to tar him with.</p>
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		By: parker		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2016/01/18/would-courts-actually-settle-the-birther-issue/#comment-954474</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[parker]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Jan 2016 04:39:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/?p=56191#comment-954474</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[the donald knows, through his legion of lawyers. that the Cruz &#039;birther&#039; issue is BS.  trump is a trojan horse.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>the donald knows, through his legion of lawyers. that the Cruz &#8216;birther&#8217; issue is BS.  trump is a trojan horse.</p>
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		<title>
		By: neo-neocon		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2016/01/18/would-courts-actually-settle-the-birther-issue/#comment-954469</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[neo-neocon]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Jan 2016 04:13:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/?p=56191#comment-954469</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[geokstr:

I actually still think that it is too speculative.  I don&#039;t think anyone has a cause of action at this point---but it has been suggested by others that Trump would, so I have discussed it. Notice that in the post I wrote that Trump &lt;i&gt;might&lt;/i&gt; have standing (accent on the &quot;might&quot;), and also &quot;if he does have standing (and it is by no means certain that he does).&quot;  These phrases express my doubt about the fact that he &lt;i&gt;would&lt;/i&gt; have standing.  

In addition, I wrote in the post that in order for the lawsuit to be entertained a person would need standing and &lt;i&gt;an actual dispute&lt;/i&gt; (that&#039;s where the &quot;too speculative&quot; objection would come in for Trump, at this point, when it&#039;s still too speculative to be an actual dispute that has injured him).  

Lastly, you might notice that in &lt;i&gt;Keyes v. Bowen&lt;/i&gt;, the lawsuit against Obama et. al. was only brought &lt;i&gt;after&lt;/i&gt; the election was over---right after it was over, actually.  That was no accident, either.  Beforehand, it would probably have been thrown out, even though the plaintiff Keyes was an opponent of Obama&#039;s in the presidential election.

So I don&#039;t really think Trump or anyone else could sue at this point. The conclusion I have come to in the post is that I think that only Congress could decide to make a candidate ineligible and that decision and ruling would come after the fact of an election.  Or, a political party could do it by not nominating that person in the first place.   Or of course the voters could do it by rejecting that person in the voting booth. I don&#039;t think the courts would get involved.

Of course, I could be wrong about that.  But if Trump wants to find out, he could file a suit and see.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>geokstr:</p>
<p>I actually still think that it is too speculative.  I don&#8217;t think anyone has a cause of action at this point&#8212;but it has been suggested by others that Trump would, so I have discussed it. Notice that in the post I wrote that Trump <i>might</i> have standing (accent on the &#8220;might&#8221;), and also &#8220;if he does have standing (and it is by no means certain that he does).&#8221;  These phrases express my doubt about the fact that he <i>would</i> have standing.  </p>
<p>In addition, I wrote in the post that in order for the lawsuit to be entertained a person would need standing and <i>an actual dispute</i> (that&#8217;s where the &#8220;too speculative&#8221; objection would come in for Trump, at this point, when it&#8217;s still too speculative to be an actual dispute that has injured him).  </p>
<p>Lastly, you might notice that in <i>Keyes v. Bowen</i>, the lawsuit against Obama et. al. was only brought <i>after</i> the election was over&#8212;right after it was over, actually.  That was no accident, either.  Beforehand, it would probably have been thrown out, even though the plaintiff Keyes was an opponent of Obama&#8217;s in the presidential election.</p>
<p>So I don&#8217;t really think Trump or anyone else could sue at this point. The conclusion I have come to in the post is that I think that only Congress could decide to make a candidate ineligible and that decision and ruling would come after the fact of an election.  Or, a political party could do it by not nominating that person in the first place.   Or of course the voters could do it by rejecting that person in the voting booth. I don&#8217;t think the courts would get involved.</p>
<p>Of course, I could be wrong about that.  But if Trump wants to find out, he could file a suit and see.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Wooly Bully		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2016/01/18/would-courts-actually-settle-the-birther-issue/#comment-954461</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Wooly Bully]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Jan 2016 03:15:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/?p=56191#comment-954461</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Michael: I didn&#039;t have Trump in mind as a conservative president, because he&#039;s not a conservative.  I expect that Trump-mania will fade as we get into the primaries, though I&#039;ve been wrong before, so....]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Michael: I didn&#8217;t have Trump in mind as a conservative president, because he&#8217;s not a conservative.  I expect that Trump-mania will fade as we get into the primaries, though I&#8217;ve been wrong before, so&#8230;.</p>
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		<title>
		By: geokstr		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2016/01/18/would-courts-actually-settle-the-birther-issue/#comment-954456</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[geokstr]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Jan 2016 02:57:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/?p=56191#comment-954456</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Neo, IIRC, didn&#039;t I ask in a comment a couple days ago  whether an opponent would have standing because they might be harmed in the future by losing to an ineligible opponent, and didn&#039;t you respond &quot;no way - too speculative&quot; or some such?]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Neo, IIRC, didn&#8217;t I ask in a comment a couple days ago  whether an opponent would have standing because they might be harmed in the future by losing to an ineligible opponent, and didn&#8217;t you respond &#8220;no way &#8211; too speculative&#8221; or some such?</p>
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