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	Comments on: Democrats plan to filibuster Iran deal vote	</title>
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	<link>https://thenewneo.com/2015/08/27/democrats-plan-to-filibuster-iran-deal-vote/</link>
	<description>A blog about political change, among other things</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Mon, 31 Aug 2015 04:08:50 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>
		By: neo-neocon		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2015/08/27/democrats-plan-to-filibuster-iran-deal-vote/#comment-917595</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[neo-neocon]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Aug 2015 04:08:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/?p=52061#comment-917595</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Phi Dayton:

I have explained what they thought they were gaining.  I&#039;ll repeat it.

They passed Corker-Menendez because they wanted to have some input about the sanctions. Corker-Menendez gave them a different pathway, one that had at least the &lt;i&gt;possibility&lt;/i&gt; of a bilateral demand by Congress to continue the sanctions. After all, the sanctions had been established by Congress in the first place and Obama should have needed their approval to lift them.   

Corker-Menendez passed almost unanimously.  They thought it was at least a possibility that they could also get enough votes post-Iran-deal to continue sanctions and override Obama&#039;s veto.  That would at least give them &lt;i&gt;some&lt;/i&gt; power to stop him from lifting sanctions without consulting them; prior to that they had none.

Was it realistic that they ever would succeed?  I don&#039;t think so, but it was at least a realistic possibility, one that was underlined by the overwhelming numbers who voted for Corker-Menendez. I think they were fooling themselves into thinking that enough Democrats might, like Schumer, come along with them to be able to override an Obama veto.   It&#039;s actually still theoretically possible.

With Corker-Menendez they are nearly powerless. Without it, they are completely powerless.  That&#039;s what happens when you have the combination of a tyrant (Obama) and a weak Congress, many of whose members are without integrity.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Phi Dayton:</p>
<p>I have explained what they thought they were gaining.  I&#8217;ll repeat it.</p>
<p>They passed Corker-Menendez because they wanted to have some input about the sanctions. Corker-Menendez gave them a different pathway, one that had at least the <i>possibility</i> of a bilateral demand by Congress to continue the sanctions. After all, the sanctions had been established by Congress in the first place and Obama should have needed their approval to lift them.   </p>
<p>Corker-Menendez passed almost unanimously.  They thought it was at least a possibility that they could also get enough votes post-Iran-deal to continue sanctions and override Obama&#8217;s veto.  That would at least give them <i>some</i> power to stop him from lifting sanctions without consulting them; prior to that they had none.</p>
<p>Was it realistic that they ever would succeed?  I don&#8217;t think so, but it was at least a realistic possibility, one that was underlined by the overwhelming numbers who voted for Corker-Menendez. I think they were fooling themselves into thinking that enough Democrats might, like Schumer, come along with them to be able to override an Obama veto.   It&#8217;s actually still theoretically possible.</p>
<p>With Corker-Menendez they are nearly powerless. Without it, they are completely powerless.  That&#8217;s what happens when you have the combination of a tyrant (Obama) and a weak Congress, many of whose members are without integrity.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Phi Dayton		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2015/08/27/democrats-plan-to-filibuster-iran-deal-vote/#comment-917569</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Phi Dayton]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Aug 2015 01:52:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/?p=52061#comment-917569</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[The point is that Congress should not have touched this then. If the President can enter into an agreement unilaterally then let him own it without Congress becoming involved. Congress should say we have not approved it, it is not the law of the land, and the Rs will repeal it. You still don&#039;t explain what was gained by C-M. Other then the President being able to say it went through the Congressional process agreed to by Congress.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The point is that Congress should not have touched this then. If the President can enter into an agreement unilaterally then let him own it without Congress becoming involved. Congress should say we have not approved it, it is not the law of the land, and the Rs will repeal it. You still don&#8217;t explain what was gained by C-M. Other then the President being able to say it went through the Congressional process agreed to by Congress.</p>
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		<title>
		By: neo-neocon		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2015/08/27/democrats-plan-to-filibuster-iran-deal-vote/#comment-917302</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[neo-neocon]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 29 Aug 2015 18:31:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/?p=52061#comment-917302</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Phi Dayton:

I have no idea why you call my explanation convoluted.  It&#039;s not all that hard to follow.

And there is almost no chance any court would have called it a treaty, and in the extremely unlikely event that the court did call it a treaty there&#039;s no way a court could it have made that stick. The precedent ever since FDR is for similar agreements to be dealt with in ways other than calling them a treaty.  

As far back as 1954 (perhaps even earlier) you can find law articles on the subject such as &lt;a href=&quot;http://scholarship.kentlaw.iit.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1734&amp;context=cklawreview&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;this one&lt;/a&gt;.  It makes it clear that in order for Congress to vote on an agreement as though it&#039;s a treaty, the president needs to submit it to the vote as such.  Obama would have never done that.  What&#039;s more:
&lt;blockquote&gt;It would seem, therefore, that the President, in the final analysis, has the last say concerning the existence or non-existence of treaty...

...[U]nder [FDR], [executive agreements] mushroomed in number to a point where they threatened to replace treaties as the basis for American foreign policy. In the famous case of &lt;i&gt;United States v. Pink&lt;/i&gt;, decided in 1942, the Litvinov &quot;executive&quot; agreement of 1933 was held to be &quot;final and conclusive on the courts&quot; insofar as Soviet recognition had there been accorded. &lt;/blockquote&gt;

There&#039;s much much more, both in earlier years and later ones, written on the subject and to the same effect.  There is virtually no chance it would have been called a treaty by the Court, and even if it had the only remedy would be impeachment/conviction of Obama, which was never going to happen.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Phi Dayton:</p>
<p>I have no idea why you call my explanation convoluted.  It&#8217;s not all that hard to follow.</p>
<p>And there is almost no chance any court would have called it a treaty, and in the extremely unlikely event that the court did call it a treaty there&#8217;s no way a court could it have made that stick. The precedent ever since FDR is for similar agreements to be dealt with in ways other than calling them a treaty.  </p>
<p>As far back as 1954 (perhaps even earlier) you can find law articles on the subject such as <a href="http://scholarship.kentlaw.iit.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1734&#038;context=cklawreview" rel="nofollow">this one</a>.  It makes it clear that in order for Congress to vote on an agreement as though it&#8217;s a treaty, the president needs to submit it to the vote as such.  Obama would have never done that.  What&#8217;s more:</p>
<blockquote><p>It would seem, therefore, that the President, in the final analysis, has the last say concerning the existence or non-existence of treaty&#8230;</p>
<p>&#8230;[U]nder [FDR], [executive agreements] mushroomed in number to a point where they threatened to replace treaties as the basis for American foreign policy. In the famous case of <i>United States v. Pink</i>, decided in 1942, the Litvinov &#8220;executive&#8221; agreement of 1933 was held to be &#8220;final and conclusive on the courts&#8221; insofar as Soviet recognition had there been accorded. </p></blockquote>
<p>There&#8217;s much much more, both in earlier years and later ones, written on the subject and to the same effect.  There is virtually no chance it would have been called a treaty by the Court, and even if it had the only remedy would be impeachment/conviction of Obama, which was never going to happen.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Phi Dayton		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2015/08/27/democrats-plan-to-filibuster-iran-deal-vote/#comment-917278</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Phi Dayton]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 29 Aug 2015 15:18:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/?p=52061#comment-917278</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[One last thought. It seems to me that C-M also undercuts an argument in Federal court that the agreement is a treaty and therefore can not be implemented without Congressional approval. Keep in mind that there is a court in Texas that is holding up the President&#039;s executive order on immigration because it really amounts to a new interpretation of the law which requires a regulatory process, there would have been a shot of a court saying the agreement is a treaty, but for C-M.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One last thought. It seems to me that C-M also undercuts an argument in Federal court that the agreement is a treaty and therefore can not be implemented without Congressional approval. Keep in mind that there is a court in Texas that is holding up the President&#8217;s executive order on immigration because it really amounts to a new interpretation of the law which requires a regulatory process, there would have been a shot of a court saying the agreement is a treaty, but for C-M.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Phi Dayton		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2015/08/27/democrats-plan-to-filibuster-iran-deal-vote/#comment-917276</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Phi Dayton]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 29 Aug 2015 15:11:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/?p=52061#comment-917276</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Oh vey. I understand how you view this. But it is so convoluted and in the end achieves nothing. The answer is usually always the simple one. The simple one is the Rs saying that the agreement will not become the law of the land because Congress will not approve it as a treaty. And when Rs get in they will reimpose sanctions and close the US banking system to anyone doing business with Iran. It&#039;s also good politics (think Florida).]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh vey. I understand how you view this. But it is so convoluted and in the end achieves nothing. The answer is usually always the simple one. The simple one is the Rs saying that the agreement will not become the law of the land because Congress will not approve it as a treaty. And when Rs get in they will reimpose sanctions and close the US banking system to anyone doing business with Iran. It&#8217;s also good politics (think Florida).</p>
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		<title>
		By: neo-neocon		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2015/08/27/democrats-plan-to-filibuster-iran-deal-vote/#comment-917225</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[neo-neocon]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 29 Aug 2015 04:02:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/?p=52061#comment-917225</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Phi Dayton:

They passed Corker-Menendez because they wanted to have some input about the sanctions.  Corker-Menendez gave them a different pathway, one that had at least the possibility of a bilateral demand by Congress to continue the sanctions.  After all, the sanctions had been established by Congress in the first place and Obama should have needed their approval to lift them.  However, they knew he wasn&#039;t going to ask for that approval; he was going to do it without them, and they wanted to reinstate their right to approve or disapprove of his lifting sanctions.

Back when the original Corker-Menendez bill was being debated and voted on, &lt;a href=&quot;https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/right-turn/wp/2015/04/30/myths-about-corker-menendez/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Corker said&lt;/a&gt;:

&lt;blockquote&gt;We all want to make sure the administration doesn’t rush into a bad deal with Iran, and without the restrictions on the president in our veto-proof bill, he would have a free hand to immediately relieve all sanctions on Iran before Congress could do anything to stop him,” Corker told me. &lt;/blockquote&gt;

Not bringing the deal up for a vote at all allows it to be voided by a new president as an executive agreement rather than a treaty.  But the same thing is true of voting under Corker-Menendez to continue sanctions.  Both options would allow a later president to void the deal, since it&#039;s just an executive agreement.

However, the fear was (and still is) that without Corker-Menendez, if they just failed to vote to either approve or disapprove of the deal as a treaty, and Obama went ahead and suspended sanctions, then by the time a new president was sworn in and tried to void the deal, sanctions would be impossible to reinstate.  It would be too late.  So they wanted to at least have a chance to prevent that.

As I said, none of it was ever going to work because they just didn&#039;t have enough Democratic support.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Phi Dayton:</p>
<p>They passed Corker-Menendez because they wanted to have some input about the sanctions.  Corker-Menendez gave them a different pathway, one that had at least the possibility of a bilateral demand by Congress to continue the sanctions.  After all, the sanctions had been established by Congress in the first place and Obama should have needed their approval to lift them.  However, they knew he wasn&#8217;t going to ask for that approval; he was going to do it without them, and they wanted to reinstate their right to approve or disapprove of his lifting sanctions.</p>
<p>Back when the original Corker-Menendez bill was being debated and voted on, <a href="https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/right-turn/wp/2015/04/30/myths-about-corker-menendez/" rel="nofollow">Corker said</a>:</p>
<blockquote><p>We all want to make sure the administration doesn’t rush into a bad deal with Iran, and without the restrictions on the president in our veto-proof bill, he would have a free hand to immediately relieve all sanctions on Iran before Congress could do anything to stop him,” Corker told me. </p></blockquote>
<p>Not bringing the deal up for a vote at all allows it to be voided by a new president as an executive agreement rather than a treaty.  But the same thing is true of voting under Corker-Menendez to continue sanctions.  Both options would allow a later president to void the deal, since it&#8217;s just an executive agreement.</p>
<p>However, the fear was (and still is) that without Corker-Menendez, if they just failed to vote to either approve or disapprove of the deal as a treaty, and Obama went ahead and suspended sanctions, then by the time a new president was sworn in and tried to void the deal, sanctions would be impossible to reinstate.  It would be too late.  So they wanted to at least have a chance to prevent that.</p>
<p>As I said, none of it was ever going to work because they just didn&#8217;t have enough Democratic support.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Phi Dayton		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2015/08/27/democrats-plan-to-filibuster-iran-deal-vote/#comment-917159</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Phi Dayton]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 29 Aug 2015 00:02:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/?p=52061#comment-917159</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I still don&#039;t understand your view on the treaty. The Rs wouldn&#039;t even have to bring it up for a ratification vote. If they don&#039;t bring it up for a vote it isn&#039;t a treaty. And the Rs should have stopped there and said let it be known that this is not a treaty of the united states and shall be voided as soon as an R becomes President. Exactly like Carly Fiorina says it should be done.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I still don&#8217;t understand your view on the treaty. The Rs wouldn&#8217;t even have to bring it up for a ratification vote. If they don&#8217;t bring it up for a vote it isn&#8217;t a treaty. And the Rs should have stopped there and said let it be known that this is not a treaty of the united states and shall be voided as soon as an R becomes President. Exactly like Carly Fiorina says it should be done.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Ymarsakar		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2015/08/27/democrats-plan-to-filibuster-iran-deal-vote/#comment-917060</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ymarsakar]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Aug 2015 15:27:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/?p=52061#comment-917060</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[&lt;b&gt;Only citizen outrage can make a difference.&lt;/b&gt;

Last time the citizens got outraged and 1 million man marched to DC, the Left&#039;s Active Measure branches nuked them.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><b>Only citizen outrage can make a difference.</b></p>
<p>Last time the citizens got outraged and 1 million man marched to DC, the Left&#8217;s Active Measure branches nuked them.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Fred		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2015/08/27/democrats-plan-to-filibuster-iran-deal-vote/#comment-917009</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Fred]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Aug 2015 11:26:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/?p=52061#comment-917009</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Is it a treaty or agreement?

Is this with US or UN ?
Why Should this matter whith rough state put on the shulder of US]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Is it a treaty or agreement?</p>
<p>Is this with US or UN ?<br />
Why Should this matter whith rough state put on the shulder of US</p>
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		<title>
		By: blert		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2015/08/27/democrats-plan-to-filibuster-iran-deal-vote/#comment-916975</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[blert]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Aug 2015 07:17:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/?p=52061#comment-916975</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I would&#039;ve thought that Munich I would&#039;ve put democratic politicians forever in dread of Munich II. ( aka Vienna I )

We&#039;ll just take the Nazi connection to both cities to be mere coincidence.

Hedy Lamarr must be spinning in her grave.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I would&#8217;ve thought that Munich I would&#8217;ve put democratic politicians forever in dread of Munich II. ( aka Vienna I )</p>
<p>We&#8217;ll just take the Nazi connection to both cities to be mere coincidence.</p>
<p>Hedy Lamarr must be spinning in her grave.</p>
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