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	Comments on: I used to think&#8230;	</title>
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	<description>A blog about political change, among other things</description>
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		<title>
		By: J.J.		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2015/01/20/i-used-to-think/#comment-864872</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[J.J.]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Jan 2015 23:48:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/?p=45977#comment-864872</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[G.B., &quot;A large part of the problem we face is people living beyond their means.&quot; 

And the Fair Tax is going to fix that? Personal financial planning is what fixes that. You know, personal responsibility? You sound like you would like to control people&#039;s over-spending as much as the progs want to control success.


GB., &quot;Small ticket items “that can be sold out of the back of a van” is known as free enterprise… is it a loss in regulation you fear?&quot;

You don&#039;t get it do you? Here in Washington State we have an onerous sales tax on cigarettes. There is a big black market in cigarettes here as a result. The state is collecting much less in tax revenue than if they would lower the taxes. But they won&#039;t because smoking is one of the progs socially unapproved activities. (As an aside, they have approved smoking of marijuana with a much more reasonable tax - doesn&#039;t compute to me.) People would also enter into barter arrangements to save paying so much tax. People would not buy anything new except day to day necessities if they could help  it.  When your taxes will be roughly doubled by passage of a poorly thought out tax scheme, as mine would be, you start to look into the ramifications more closely.  If I would change  my retail buying habits to pay less tax, why wouldn&#039;t others? Less economic activity means fewer jobs.  The Fair Tax is a lot like Communism.  It is supposed to provide a new, FAIR  way to finance the government. When it stifles economic activity they will wonder what the H**L happened. 

All tax schemes are a pain in the ass. Our present scheme is too complex and too loaded toward the top 25% of earners, but it could  be revised to make it simpler and flatter. The Fair Tax is uncharted territory - there be dragons there.

Daniel in Brookline, &quot;There are many aspects of the current tax system that bother me. But one of the most bothersome, in my opinion, is that there are so many wrong answers and no right answers.&quot; 

Sounds like you may have owned some shares in Master Limited Partnerships (MLPs)  I now refuse to own them (even though they are mostly good investments) because of the tax issues. Only tax preparers who specialize in them can provide a reasonably safe and accurate tax return. And those specialists are not cheap. Not for small investors like me anyway.  That&#039;s why a first step would be to simplify the code.  The MLPs are basically set up to allow businesses to pass through the maximum return to the shareholders along with some of the tax benefits of being in business. With a 10%  corporate or business tax, that would no longer make sense. There are even more esoteric things than MLPs, but all are designed to provide some loopholes to some group. That is where simplification comes in. But it will be hard. Too may oxen gored.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>G.B., &#8220;A large part of the problem we face is people living beyond their means.&#8221; </p>
<p>And the Fair Tax is going to fix that? Personal financial planning is what fixes that. You know, personal responsibility? You sound like you would like to control people&#8217;s over-spending as much as the progs want to control success.</p>
<p>GB., &#8220;Small ticket items “that can be sold out of the back of a van” is known as free enterprise… is it a loss in regulation you fear?&#8221;</p>
<p>You don&#8217;t get it do you? Here in Washington State we have an onerous sales tax on cigarettes. There is a big black market in cigarettes here as a result. The state is collecting much less in tax revenue than if they would lower the taxes. But they won&#8217;t because smoking is one of the progs socially unapproved activities. (As an aside, they have approved smoking of marijuana with a much more reasonable tax &#8211; doesn&#8217;t compute to me.) People would also enter into barter arrangements to save paying so much tax. People would not buy anything new except day to day necessities if they could help  it.  When your taxes will be roughly doubled by passage of a poorly thought out tax scheme, as mine would be, you start to look into the ramifications more closely.  If I would change  my retail buying habits to pay less tax, why wouldn&#8217;t others? Less economic activity means fewer jobs.  The Fair Tax is a lot like Communism.  It is supposed to provide a new, FAIR  way to finance the government. When it stifles economic activity they will wonder what the H**L happened. </p>
<p>All tax schemes are a pain in the ass. Our present scheme is too complex and too loaded toward the top 25% of earners, but it could  be revised to make it simpler and flatter. The Fair Tax is uncharted territory &#8211; there be dragons there.</p>
<p>Daniel in Brookline, &#8220;There are many aspects of the current tax system that bother me. But one of the most bothersome, in my opinion, is that there are so many wrong answers and no right answers.&#8221; </p>
<p>Sounds like you may have owned some shares in Master Limited Partnerships (MLPs)  I now refuse to own them (even though they are mostly good investments) because of the tax issues. Only tax preparers who specialize in them can provide a reasonably safe and accurate tax return. And those specialists are not cheap. Not for small investors like me anyway.  That&#8217;s why a first step would be to simplify the code.  The MLPs are basically set up to allow businesses to pass through the maximum return to the shareholders along with some of the tax benefits of being in business. With a 10%  corporate or business tax, that would no longer make sense. There are even more esoteric things than MLPs, but all are designed to provide some loopholes to some group. That is where simplification comes in. But it will be hard. Too may oxen gored.</p>
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		<title>
		By: MikeNC		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2015/01/20/i-used-to-think/#comment-864839</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[MikeNC]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Jan 2015 21:52:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/?p=45977#comment-864839</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[J.J.

I appreciate your opinion. I just disagree with it.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>J.J.</p>
<p>I appreciate your opinion. I just disagree with it.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Richard Aubrey		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2015/01/20/i-used-to-think/#comment-864835</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Richard Aubrey]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Jan 2015 21:30:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/?p=45977#comment-864835</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[No matter how it&#039;s tweaked, up or down, the fed income tax takes 18% of the GDP, plus or minus a point or two.  Reason is that when you are getting taxed heavily on one thing, you do another.  That&#039;s tax planning.
&quot;Sure,&quot; says the accountant, &quot;you&#039;re making 8% here, but losing half in taxes.  Better to put it where it makes 5% and isn&#039;t taxed.&quot;  IOW, tax planning by definition puts money where it is less useful than if it were uninfluenced by taxes.  Damages the economy.  
The estate tax was founded on three items:  Avoiding the permanent class of the uberwealthy, revenue, and pandering to envy.  Due to tax planning and various choices, reports I&#039;ve seen say the estate tax brings brings down the economy by about as much as it brings in.  So revenue&#039;s failed.  Once you get past a certain amount, you can&#039;t spend it fast enough to avoid growth.  Buying a castle isn&#039;t spending money; it&#039;s converting it to real estate.  Ditto jewels or airplanes.  The money you can spend that&#039;s just flat gone is a smaller and smaller amount of the growth on the principle as the principle is larger and larger.  You can only drink and party and travel so much.  OTOH, somebody who&#039;s got, say, $6 million is going to be taxed on the excess over the exclusion of $5 million.  So he has $5.5 to split between three kids.  They each get $1.8 million.  Growth on that at 5% is $90,000.  You can expend that pretty easily at that lifestyle, or even if you pull in your horns.  But somebody with $50 million leaves, after taxes, about $9 million to each of three kids.  Growth on $9 million at 5% is $450,000.  Probably can&#039;t expend that.  All numbers are approx and rounded.  Making an example.  The malefactors of great wealth remain greatly wealthy while the up-and-comers are shut out...by estate taxes. We don&#039;t have the fresh blood, the turnover, that TR fancied. We still have pandering to envy.
Seen a flat tax proposal where--this was some time ago and might be adjusted for inflation--a family of four had an exclusion of $36,000 and 15% on everything over that, no deductions whatsoever.  Claim was everybody would be paying more or less what they&#039;re paying now and it would be revenue neutral.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No matter how it&#8217;s tweaked, up or down, the fed income tax takes 18% of the GDP, plus or minus a point or two.  Reason is that when you are getting taxed heavily on one thing, you do another.  That&#8217;s tax planning.<br />
&#8220;Sure,&#8221; says the accountant, &#8220;you&#8217;re making 8% here, but losing half in taxes.  Better to put it where it makes 5% and isn&#8217;t taxed.&#8221;  IOW, tax planning by definition puts money where it is less useful than if it were uninfluenced by taxes.  Damages the economy.<br />
The estate tax was founded on three items:  Avoiding the permanent class of the uberwealthy, revenue, and pandering to envy.  Due to tax planning and various choices, reports I&#8217;ve seen say the estate tax brings brings down the economy by about as much as it brings in.  So revenue&#8217;s failed.  Once you get past a certain amount, you can&#8217;t spend it fast enough to avoid growth.  Buying a castle isn&#8217;t spending money; it&#8217;s converting it to real estate.  Ditto jewels or airplanes.  The money you can spend that&#8217;s just flat gone is a smaller and smaller amount of the growth on the principle as the principle is larger and larger.  You can only drink and party and travel so much.  OTOH, somebody who&#8217;s got, say, $6 million is going to be taxed on the excess over the exclusion of $5 million.  So he has $5.5 to split between three kids.  They each get $1.8 million.  Growth on that at 5% is $90,000.  You can expend that pretty easily at that lifestyle, or even if you pull in your horns.  But somebody with $50 million leaves, after taxes, about $9 million to each of three kids.  Growth on $9 million at 5% is $450,000.  Probably can&#8217;t expend that.  All numbers are approx and rounded.  Making an example.  The malefactors of great wealth remain greatly wealthy while the up-and-comers are shut out&#8230;by estate taxes. We don&#8217;t have the fresh blood, the turnover, that TR fancied. We still have pandering to envy.<br />
Seen a flat tax proposal where&#8211;this was some time ago and might be adjusted for inflation&#8211;a family of four had an exclusion of $36,000 and 15% on everything over that, no deductions whatsoever.  Claim was everybody would be paying more or less what they&#8217;re paying now and it would be revenue neutral.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Ymarsakar		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2015/01/20/i-used-to-think/#comment-864826</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ymarsakar]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Jan 2015 21:17:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/?p=45977#comment-864826</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[The optimal growth rate is 1-3% tax rates, as simulated by a few thousand people exchanging various stuff for a decade.

5-10% and you start seeing some interesting gray and black market activities, bartering and tax evasion. More than that, and it gets to the point where lawyers or some other company profits because a lot of work and jobs are created just to calculate taxations and how to avoid them.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The optimal growth rate is 1-3% tax rates, as simulated by a few thousand people exchanging various stuff for a decade.</p>
<p>5-10% and you start seeing some interesting gray and black market activities, bartering and tax evasion. More than that, and it gets to the point where lawyers or some other company profits because a lot of work and jobs are created just to calculate taxations and how to avoid them.</p>
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		<title>
		By: J.J.		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2015/01/20/i-used-to-think/#comment-864763</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[J.J.]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Jan 2015 18:23:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/?p=45977#comment-864763</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[MikeNC, &quot;This proposal is easy to distort by its opponents, but you should take the time to find out what it is about for yourself. Don’t listen to the naysayers, learn for yourself. It is worth the time.&quot;

I have read the books, studied the issue, and it comes up short. The libertarian bias of Boortz and others of the same mindset create  the assumption that all citizens are willing to be fleeced during commercial transactions. The Fair Tax would approximately double my taxes. Do you think I&#039;m not going to devise any strategy I can to decrease them? Multiply me by 100 million others and you have a recipe for destruction of the economy and decreased tax receipts.   Figure out what you would actually be paying under that plan  and then decide what you would have to do to pay less. It means you would buy less of everything. It would stifle the economy.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>MikeNC, &#8220;This proposal is easy to distort by its opponents, but you should take the time to find out what it is about for yourself. Don’t listen to the naysayers, learn for yourself. It is worth the time.&#8221;</p>
<p>I have read the books, studied the issue, and it comes up short. The libertarian bias of Boortz and others of the same mindset create  the assumption that all citizens are willing to be fleeced during commercial transactions. The Fair Tax would approximately double my taxes. Do you think I&#8217;m not going to devise any strategy I can to decrease them? Multiply me by 100 million others and you have a recipe for destruction of the economy and decreased tax receipts.   Figure out what you would actually be paying under that plan  and then decide what you would have to do to pay less. It means you would buy less of everything. It would stifle the economy.</p>
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		<title>
		By: MikeNC		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2015/01/20/i-used-to-think/#comment-864754</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[MikeNC]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Jan 2015 18:05:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/?p=45977#comment-864754</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[dang, hit submit instead of preview - .......&quot;diminish their power over us.&quot;]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>dang, hit submit instead of preview &#8211; &#8230;&#8230;.&#8221;diminish their power over us.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>
		By: MikeNC		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2015/01/20/i-used-to-think/#comment-864753</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[MikeNC]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Jan 2015 18:03:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/?p=45977#comment-864753</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I forgot to add, this bill is in the House as H.R. 25. Learn about it and if you like it push your congress critter to support it or elect someone who will. The establishment of both parties do not like this bill because it would diminish their power for us.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I forgot to add, this bill is in the House as H.R. 25. Learn about it and if you like it push your congress critter to support it or elect someone who will. The establishment of both parties do not like this bill because it would diminish their power for us.</p>
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		<title>
		By: MikeNC		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2015/01/20/i-used-to-think/#comment-864749</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[MikeNC]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Jan 2015 17:56:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/?p=45977#comment-864749</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[To understand the Fair Tax proposal you need to read the books. Both are on Amazon. You can even link thru Neo&#039;s site!!

http://www.amazon.com/Fair-Tax-Book-Saying-Goodbye/dp/0060875496/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&#038;qid=1421852283&#038;sr=8-1&#038;keywords=Fair+tax

http://www.amazon.com/FairTax-Answering-Critics-Neal-Boortz/dp/0061540463/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&#038;qid=1421852283&#038;sr=8-2&#038;keywords=Fair+tax

For quick information go to the Fair Tax website. They do a good job of explaining it and answer a lot of questions. The books go into even more detail. The first one lays it out, the second one answers the critics.

http://fairtax.org

This proposal is easy to distort by its opponents, but you should take the time to find out what it is about for yourself. Don&#039;t listen to the naysayers, learn for yourself. It is worth the time. To the people who say &quot;we could never get this passed&quot;, I say you won&#039;t if you don&#039;t try. Do you like what we have now?

A national sales tax was what the founders originally authorized in the Constitution. We should give it a try again.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To understand the Fair Tax proposal you need to read the books. Both are on Amazon. You can even link thru Neo&#8217;s site!!</p>
<p><a href="http://www.amazon.com/Fair-Tax-Book-Saying-Goodbye/dp/0060875496/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&#038;qid=1421852283&#038;sr=8-1&#038;keywords=Fair+tax" rel="nofollow ugc">http://www.amazon.com/Fair-Tax-Book-Saying-Goodbye/dp/0060875496/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&#038;qid=1421852283&#038;sr=8-1&#038;keywords=Fair+tax</a></p>
<p><a href="http://www.amazon.com/FairTax-Answering-Critics-Neal-Boortz/dp/0061540463/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&#038;qid=1421852283&#038;sr=8-2&#038;keywords=Fair+tax" rel="nofollow ugc">http://www.amazon.com/FairTax-Answering-Critics-Neal-Boortz/dp/0061540463/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&#038;qid=1421852283&#038;sr=8-2&#038;keywords=Fair+tax</a></p>
<p>For quick information go to the Fair Tax website. They do a good job of explaining it and answer a lot of questions. The books go into even more detail. The first one lays it out, the second one answers the critics.</p>
<p><a href="http://fairtax.org" rel="nofollow ugc">http://fairtax.org</a></p>
<p>This proposal is easy to distort by its opponents, but you should take the time to find out what it is about for yourself. Don&#8217;t listen to the naysayers, learn for yourself. It is worth the time. To the people who say &#8220;we could never get this passed&#8221;, I say you won&#8217;t if you don&#8217;t try. Do you like what we have now?</p>
<p>A national sales tax was what the founders originally authorized in the Constitution. We should give it a try again.</p>
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		By: Rufus Firefly		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2015/01/20/i-used-to-think/#comment-864744</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Rufus Firefly]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Jan 2015 17:46:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/?p=45977#comment-864744</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[neoneocon, with your intelligence and depth of knowledge I find it difficult to believe you&#039;ve only recently come to see the horror of the 16th Amendment.  If I was offered a magic wand that could make one and only one poltical change, I would abolish the 16th Amendment without hesitation.

Imagine going to George Washington or Benjamin Franklin and telling them they are not free to offer their labor or pay for another&#039;s labor directly.  Imagine telling them the government will first tell them how much of that wage they will be permitted to keep?!  It is anathema to all they fought for and all they created.

I certainly like the Flat Tax more than the absurdity we have now, but it fails on the level of principle.  Once we agree the Federal Government holds sway over our private dealings with others for labor, we cede our freedom to the Federal Government.  The only tax that fits our ideal of Federal Government is a consumption tax.

Make Congress fight for every dime they get.  If they want a new agency, new staff, a new war, new regulations... they will first have to determine what new tax they will levy, or existing tax they will raise.  And the people involved in those industries will fight them every step of the way, as it should be.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>neoneocon, with your intelligence and depth of knowledge I find it difficult to believe you&#8217;ve only recently come to see the horror of the 16th Amendment.  If I was offered a magic wand that could make one and only one poltical change, I would abolish the 16th Amendment without hesitation.</p>
<p>Imagine going to George Washington or Benjamin Franklin and telling them they are not free to offer their labor or pay for another&#8217;s labor directly.  Imagine telling them the government will first tell them how much of that wage they will be permitted to keep?!  It is anathema to all they fought for and all they created.</p>
<p>I certainly like the Flat Tax more than the absurdity we have now, but it fails on the level of principle.  Once we agree the Federal Government holds sway over our private dealings with others for labor, we cede our freedom to the Federal Government.  The only tax that fits our ideal of Federal Government is a consumption tax.</p>
<p>Make Congress fight for every dime they get.  If they want a new agency, new staff, a new war, new regulations&#8230; they will first have to determine what new tax they will levy, or existing tax they will raise.  And the people involved in those industries will fight them every step of the way, as it should be.</p>
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		By: Daniel in Brookline		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2015/01/20/i-used-to-think/#comment-864714</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Daniel in Brookline]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Jan 2015 16:02:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/?p=45977#comment-864714</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[* -- the book was Niven and Pournelle&#039;s &quot;Oath of Fealty&quot;.  It&#039;s very dated in some ways, but it has some surprisingly good stuff in it.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>* &#8212; the book was Niven and Pournelle&#8217;s &#8220;Oath of Fealty&#8221;.  It&#8217;s very dated in some ways, but it has some surprisingly good stuff in it.</p>
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