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	Comments on: The real story of the murder of Kitty Genovese	</title>
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	<link>https://thenewneo.com/2014/02/18/the-real-story-of-the-murder-of-kitty-genovese/</link>
	<description>A blog about political change, among other things</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Wed, 12 Nov 2014 04:27:49 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>
		By: jwelch		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2014/02/18/the-real-story-of-the-murder-of-kitty-genovese/#comment-847192</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[jwelch]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Nov 2014 04:27:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/?p=36558#comment-847192</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Story was sociology case study in college (70&#039;s), and I found the more accurate information covered (ID network) tonight provided clarity and was fascinating. Curious though, for psychological and historical relevance, what happened to Karl Ross and Joseph Fink, the two witnesses who perpetrated the documented callous lack of response on eve of the crime? Anyone know?]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Story was sociology case study in college (70&#8217;s), and I found the more accurate information covered (ID network) tonight provided clarity and was fascinating. Curious though, for psychological and historical relevance, what happened to Karl Ross and Joseph Fink, the two witnesses who perpetrated the documented callous lack of response on eve of the crime? Anyone know?</p>
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		<title>
		By: neo-neocon		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2014/02/18/the-real-story-of-the-murder-of-kitty-genovese/#comment-741619</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[neo-neocon]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Feb 2014 03:16:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/?p=36558#comment-741619</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[HT:

Apparently you did not read the article.

Someone intervened immediately, yelling at Mosely and frightening him away.

Another someone called the police almost immediately, and told a dispatcher what he had seen and heard, and the location.  But the police did not come; if they had, the second (fatal) attack would not have occurred.  

Others did not know what was happening; they only heard or saw snippets of it and did not understand what was actually occurring.  

Another woman, hearing the final, soon-to-be-fatal attack (which occurred in the lobby of the building), raced to help, potentially risking her own life.

38---or 36, or 40 people---did not WATCH the attack, as the &lt;i&gt;Times&lt;/i&gt; asserted in that lede.  Two people&quot;watched&quot; it and did nothing, as the linked article describes. The word &quot;witnesses&quot; doesn&#039;t mean the people watched the thing unfold and understood what was happening.  It means they later spoke to police about something they either saw or heard, in the case of the Genovese murder usually something quite minor and confusing.  

The initial story was NOT accurate.  Nor is your statement, &quot;nobody called, nobody intervened.&quot;

I wonder why you are so wedded to defending the &lt;i&gt;Times&lt;/i&gt; and its original reporting.  

&lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Kitty_Genovese#Attack&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Here&#039;s&lt;/a&gt; plenty more [emphasis mine]:

&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;strong&gt;Her cry was heard by several neighbors but, on a cold night with the windows closed, only a few of them recognized the sound as a cry for help&lt;/strong&gt;. When Robert Mozer, one of the neighbors, &lt;strong&gt;shouted at the attacker, &quot;Let that girl alone!&quot; Moseley ran away&lt;/strong&gt; and Genovese slowly made her way toward the rear entrance of her apartment building. She was seriously injured, but &lt;strong&gt;now out of view of any witnesses.&lt;/strong&gt;

&lt;strong&gt;Records of the earliest calls [note plural] to police are unclear and were not given a high priority by the police&lt;/strong&gt;. One witness said his father called police after the initial attack and reported that a woman was &quot;beat up, but got up and was staggering around.&quot;

Other witnesses observed Moseley enter his car and drive away, only to return ten minutes later. In his car, he changed to a wide-brimmed hat to shadow his face. He systematically searched the parking lot, train station, and an apartment complex. Eventually, he found Genovese who was lying, barely conscious, in a hallway at the back of the building where a locked doorway had prevented her from entering the building. &lt;strong&gt;Out of view of the street and of those who may have heard or seen any sign of the original attack, Moseley proceeded to further attack her&lt;/strong&gt;, stabbing her several more times. Knife wounds in her hands suggested that she attempted to defend herself from him. While Genovese lay dying, Moseley raped her. He stole about $49 from her and left her in the hallway. The attacks spanned approximately half an hour.

A few minutes after the final attack a witness, Karl Ross, called the police. Police arrived within minutes of Ross&#039; call. Genovese was taken away by ambulance at 4:15 a.m. and died en route to the hospital. Later investigation by police and prosecutors revealed that approximately a dozen (but almost certainly not the 38 cited in the Times article) individuals nearby had heard or observed portions of the attack, though&lt;strong&gt; none saw or were aware of the entire incident. &lt;i&gt;Only one witness, Joseph Fink, was aware she was stabbed in the first attack, and only Karl Ross was aware of it in the second attack. Many were entirely unaware that an assault or homicide was in progress; some thought that what they saw or heard was a lovers&#039; quarrel or a drunken brawl or a group of friends leaving the bar when Moseley first approached Genovese.&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>HT:</p>
<p>Apparently you did not read the article.</p>
<p>Someone intervened immediately, yelling at Mosely and frightening him away.</p>
<p>Another someone called the police almost immediately, and told a dispatcher what he had seen and heard, and the location.  But the police did not come; if they had, the second (fatal) attack would not have occurred.  </p>
<p>Others did not know what was happening; they only heard or saw snippets of it and did not understand what was actually occurring.  </p>
<p>Another woman, hearing the final, soon-to-be-fatal attack (which occurred in the lobby of the building), raced to help, potentially risking her own life.</p>
<p>38&#8212;or 36, or 40 people&#8212;did not WATCH the attack, as the <i>Times</i> asserted in that lede.  Two people&#8221;watched&#8221; it and did nothing, as the linked article describes. The word &#8220;witnesses&#8221; doesn&#8217;t mean the people watched the thing unfold and understood what was happening.  It means they later spoke to police about something they either saw or heard, in the case of the Genovese murder usually something quite minor and confusing.  </p>
<p>The initial story was NOT accurate.  Nor is your statement, &#8220;nobody called, nobody intervened.&#8221;</p>
<p>I wonder why you are so wedded to defending the <i>Times</i> and its original reporting.  </p>
<p><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Kitty_Genovese#Attack" rel="nofollow">Here&#8217;s</a> plenty more [emphasis mine]:</p>
<blockquote><p><strong>Her cry was heard by several neighbors but, on a cold night with the windows closed, only a few of them recognized the sound as a cry for help</strong>. When Robert Mozer, one of the neighbors, <strong>shouted at the attacker, &#8220;Let that girl alone!&#8221; Moseley ran away</strong> and Genovese slowly made her way toward the rear entrance of her apartment building. She was seriously injured, but <strong>now out of view of any witnesses.</strong></p>
<p><strong>Records of the earliest calls [note plural] to police are unclear and were not given a high priority by the police</strong>. One witness said his father called police after the initial attack and reported that a woman was &#8220;beat up, but got up and was staggering around.&#8221;</p>
<p>Other witnesses observed Moseley enter his car and drive away, only to return ten minutes later. In his car, he changed to a wide-brimmed hat to shadow his face. He systematically searched the parking lot, train station, and an apartment complex. Eventually, he found Genovese who was lying, barely conscious, in a hallway at the back of the building where a locked doorway had prevented her from entering the building. <strong>Out of view of the street and of those who may have heard or seen any sign of the original attack, Moseley proceeded to further attack her</strong>, stabbing her several more times. Knife wounds in her hands suggested that she attempted to defend herself from him. While Genovese lay dying, Moseley raped her. He stole about $49 from her and left her in the hallway. The attacks spanned approximately half an hour.</p>
<p>A few minutes after the final attack a witness, Karl Ross, called the police. Police arrived within minutes of Ross&#8217; call. Genovese was taken away by ambulance at 4:15 a.m. and died en route to the hospital. Later investigation by police and prosecutors revealed that approximately a dozen (but almost certainly not the 38 cited in the Times article) individuals nearby had heard or observed portions of the attack, though<strong> none saw or were aware of the entire incident. <i>Only one witness, Joseph Fink, was aware she was stabbed in the first attack, and only Karl Ross was aware of it in the second attack. Many were entirely unaware that an assault or homicide was in progress; some thought that what they saw or heard was a lovers&#8217; quarrel or a drunken brawl or a group of friends leaving the bar when Moseley first approached Genovese.</i></strong></p></blockquote>
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		<title>
		By: HT		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2014/02/18/the-real-story-of-the-murder-of-kitty-genovese/#comment-741608</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[HT]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Feb 2014 02:13:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/?p=36558#comment-741608</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Genovese?  &quot;debunking&quot;?

OK, it wasn;t 38 witnesses, it was 36 to 40 witnesses; they later came up with about 60 who were aware of an &#039;altercation&#039;.  The attack came in two stages with a 5 minute break when Mozer yelled out the window.  

But it was half an hour of a woman being stabbed to death, screaming almost all the while.  The initial story was not technically perfect, but the story was accurate.  The fact is nobody called, nobody intervened.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Genovese?  &#8220;debunking&#8221;?</p>
<p>OK, it wasn;t 38 witnesses, it was 36 to 40 witnesses; they later came up with about 60 who were aware of an &#8216;altercation&#8217;.  The attack came in two stages with a 5 minute break when Mozer yelled out the window.  </p>
<p>But it was half an hour of a woman being stabbed to death, screaming almost all the while.  The initial story was not technically perfect, but the story was accurate.  The fact is nobody called, nobody intervened.</p>
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		<title>
		By: gs		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2014/02/18/the-real-story-of-the-murder-of-kitty-genovese/#comment-741546</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[gs]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Feb 2014 22:30:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/?p=36558#comment-741546</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Re Rosenthal on the Genovese murder:

In effect, the NYC elite used this human tragedy to smear the NYC middle class.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re Rosenthal on the Genovese murder:</p>
<p>In effect, the NYC elite used this human tragedy to smear the NYC middle class.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Ymarsakar		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2014/02/18/the-real-story-of-the-murder-of-kitty-genovese/#comment-741451</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ymarsakar]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Feb 2014 11:12:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/?p=36558#comment-741451</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[The cops didn&#039;t bust him for calling 911. That&#039;s a misleading title and header.

They busted him because he wouldn&#039;t disappear. Like Zimmerman, as obedient Democrats they followed the orders of the 911 operators. To certain doom.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The cops didn&#8217;t bust him for calling 911. That&#8217;s a misleading title and header.</p>
<p>They busted him because he wouldn&#8217;t disappear. Like Zimmerman, as obedient Democrats they followed the orders of the 911 operators. To certain doom.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Beverly		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2014/02/18/the-real-story-of-the-murder-of-kitty-genovese/#comment-741444</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Beverly]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Feb 2014 09:54:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/?p=36558#comment-741444</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I called 911 one other time, also with good results. I was up late as usual, and saw the fire alarm lights in the landmark building across the way start to flash their strobe alarm. The fire dept. guy showed up in about 2 minutes (they have a pretty sleepy beat and probably were hoping for some real action). Turned out to be a false alarm.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I called 911 one other time, also with good results. I was up late as usual, and saw the fire alarm lights in the landmark building across the way start to flash their strobe alarm. The fire dept. guy showed up in about 2 minutes (they have a pretty sleepy beat and probably were hoping for some real action). Turned out to be a false alarm.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Beverly		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2014/02/18/the-real-story-of-the-murder-of-kitty-genovese/#comment-741441</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Beverly]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Feb 2014 09:52:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/?p=36558#comment-741441</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Well, I have to disagree about the NYPD: my dealings with them have all been cordial! and I&#039;ve been here for 30 years. Never arrested, of course, but I did call 911 for a breaking and entering in progress, the cops came and caught the bad guy and his obscene girlfriend, and they never gave me a lick of trouble about it. IN fact, it was exciting watching the cops, guns drawn, get on the car park roof and also go in through the garage door to get the miscreant.

When they arrested the miscreant&#039;s slatternly girlfriend, she started with a spew of nonstop obscenities and profanities. The cops, bored, kept taking notes, and said, &quot;Just keep it up. There you go,&quot; and wouldn&#039;t even bother to cuss her back. Then they bundled the pair into a cop car and drove off.

I&#039;m sure there was some sort of plea deal, because they caught the guy red-handed (I&#039;d heard the crash of broken glass and saw him vaulting in through the high window in the car park&#039;s door: spotted his football jersey and the number as well. Black guy.) He had broken in, apparently to burglarize the cars in the garage of whatever he could find. His girlfriend was driving a beat up old car and was waiting in the street to drive him away after.

I have to say, it was VERY gratifying to be able to make that phone call! That was in, oh, 1990 or so, on 14th Street in Manhattan.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, I have to disagree about the NYPD: my dealings with them have all been cordial! and I&#8217;ve been here for 30 years. Never arrested, of course, but I did call 911 for a breaking and entering in progress, the cops came and caught the bad guy and his obscene girlfriend, and they never gave me a lick of trouble about it. IN fact, it was exciting watching the cops, guns drawn, get on the car park roof and also go in through the garage door to get the miscreant.</p>
<p>When they arrested the miscreant&#8217;s slatternly girlfriend, she started with a spew of nonstop obscenities and profanities. The cops, bored, kept taking notes, and said, &#8220;Just keep it up. There you go,&#8221; and wouldn&#8217;t even bother to cuss her back. Then they bundled the pair into a cop car and drove off.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m sure there was some sort of plea deal, because they caught the guy red-handed (I&#8217;d heard the crash of broken glass and saw him vaulting in through the high window in the car park&#8217;s door: spotted his football jersey and the number as well. Black guy.) He had broken in, apparently to burglarize the cars in the garage of whatever he could find. His girlfriend was driving a beat up old car and was waiting in the street to drive him away after.</p>
<p>I have to say, it was VERY gratifying to be able to make that phone call! That was in, oh, 1990 or so, on 14th Street in Manhattan.</p>
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		<title>
		By: blert		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2014/02/18/the-real-story-of-the-murder-of-kitty-genovese/#comment-741408</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[blert]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Feb 2014 05:00:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/?p=36558#comment-741408</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[To show you why there is some reluctance to get involved:

I once phoned 911 to report a fire -- roof top -- the building was under construction across the street.

The FIRST FIVE MINUTES of my call was directed at getting the &#039;goods&#039; on me. So obvious was this, I realized why no-one else nearby dared pick up their cell phones.

The operator insisted that I provide a street address. I had none.

She wanted my address. I had none. I didn&#039;t even remember the street I was calling from.

This argument went back and forth for two minutes. She was indignant that I wouldn&#039;t cough up the street address. I finally raged at her:&quot; Everything is new and under construction. There are absolutely no addresses on ANYTHING!&quot;

Telling her it was within one-block of the I-50 freeway and a local major avenue was just not good enough.

I finally got her off the line by informing her that the local news helicopter had finally arrived. By this time a touch of smoke had transformed into towering flames five meters high! In a cloudless sky the smoke now reached to 100 meters.

As you might imagine, she sported a NAM accent.

I figure you only get ONE fire call in your life time.

Anything beyond that will have the authorities strip-searching you for matches.

&#038;&#038;&#038;

Putting slow-witted fools at the nexus of decision is the recipe of disaster.

Having inculcated such fools into attacking the honor and veracity of the general public... is the height of folly, itself.

The operative assumption that just anyone can answer a distress call is flamingly wrong.

&quot;Lone Survivor&quot; illustrates just how touchy it can be to be timely with a phone call. When news comes from an unexpected source or means -- there is emotional-logical lock-up. Such events break up ones harmony, ones bliss.

In my case, playing phone games while the building is roaring into a full blaze -- &#039;tis to torment.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To show you why there is some reluctance to get involved:</p>
<p>I once phoned 911 to report a fire &#8212; roof top &#8212; the building was under construction across the street.</p>
<p>The FIRST FIVE MINUTES of my call was directed at getting the &#8216;goods&#8217; on me. So obvious was this, I realized why no-one else nearby dared pick up their cell phones.</p>
<p>The operator insisted that I provide a street address. I had none.</p>
<p>She wanted my address. I had none. I didn&#8217;t even remember the street I was calling from.</p>
<p>This argument went back and forth for two minutes. She was indignant that I wouldn&#8217;t cough up the street address. I finally raged at her:&#8221; Everything is new and under construction. There are absolutely no addresses on ANYTHING!&#8221;</p>
<p>Telling her it was within one-block of the I-50 freeway and a local major avenue was just not good enough.</p>
<p>I finally got her off the line by informing her that the local news helicopter had finally arrived. By this time a touch of smoke had transformed into towering flames five meters high! In a cloudless sky the smoke now reached to 100 meters.</p>
<p>As you might imagine, she sported a NAM accent.</p>
<p>I figure you only get ONE fire call in your life time.</p>
<p>Anything beyond that will have the authorities strip-searching you for matches.</p>
<p>&amp;&amp;&amp;</p>
<p>Putting slow-witted fools at the nexus of decision is the recipe of disaster.</p>
<p>Having inculcated such fools into attacking the honor and veracity of the general public&#8230; is the height of folly, itself.</p>
<p>The operative assumption that just anyone can answer a distress call is flamingly wrong.</p>
<p>&#8220;Lone Survivor&#8221; illustrates just how touchy it can be to be timely with a phone call. When news comes from an unexpected source or means &#8212; there is emotional-logical lock-up. Such events break up ones harmony, ones bliss.</p>
<p>In my case, playing phone games while the building is roaring into a full blaze &#8212; &#8217;tis to torment.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Ymarsakar		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2014/02/18/the-real-story-of-the-murder-of-kitty-genovese/#comment-741356</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ymarsakar]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Feb 2014 00:33:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/?p=36558#comment-741356</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Authority cannot be trusted. If it isn&#039;t something you saw for yourself or verified using triangulation, it&#039;s not something a human with free will would believe in. Natural human instinct is to not trust in strangers.

But modern democracy in the US decrees that if you don&#039;t understand how the microwave works, all you have to do is trust in the &quot;experts&quot; and everything will work out fine. That&#039;s not the attitude of autonomous humans, btw.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Authority cannot be trusted. If it isn&#8217;t something you saw for yourself or verified using triangulation, it&#8217;s not something a human with free will would believe in. Natural human instinct is to not trust in strangers.</p>
<p>But modern democracy in the US decrees that if you don&#8217;t understand how the microwave works, all you have to do is trust in the &#8220;experts&#8221; and everything will work out fine. That&#8217;s not the attitude of autonomous humans, btw.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Sgt. Mom		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2014/02/18/the-real-story-of-the-murder-of-kitty-genovese/#comment-741351</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Sgt. Mom]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Feb 2014 00:21:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/?p=36558#comment-741351</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[There was another debunking of the Kitty Genovese standard narrative a couple of years ago - cannot remember where I read it ... but it is appalling how Mr. Rosenthal ran with the narrative, and basically calumniated a whole neighborhood and people.
There was a horrific murder in my own neighborhood, last November, it was. Believe me, everyone was out on their doorsteps, taking an active interest.
Of course, this was in Texas, where I believe most everyone has a pretty impressive private armory... and being relative hicks, still very interested in what is happening in our neighborhood.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There was another debunking of the Kitty Genovese standard narrative a couple of years ago &#8211; cannot remember where I read it &#8230; but it is appalling how Mr. Rosenthal ran with the narrative, and basically calumniated a whole neighborhood and people.<br />
There was a horrific murder in my own neighborhood, last November, it was. Believe me, everyone was out on their doorsteps, taking an active interest.<br />
Of course, this was in Texas, where I believe most everyone has a pretty impressive private armory&#8230; and being relative hicks, still very interested in what is happening in our neighborhood.</p>
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