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	Comments on: The day after: some thoughts on the Zimmerman trial	</title>
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	<link>https://thenewneo.com/2013/07/14/the-day-after-thoughts-on-the-zimmerman-trial/</link>
	<description>A blog about political change, among other things</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Wed, 17 Jul 2013 17:41:40 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>
		By: Richard Aubrey		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2013/07/14/the-day-after-thoughts-on-the-zimmerman-trial/#comment-629203</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Richard Aubrey]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Jul 2013 17:41:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/?p=29753#comment-629203</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[blert
RPG--then sometimes called B40 and B41--were considered threats to helicopters in Viet Nam.  But then, as now, when hovering, on final, on the ground, just taking off.  Which was the case with the SEALs in Afghanistan.  Everybody I knew figured the Sov version of the fifty was worse.  
Actually, admittedly with hindsight, 9-11 could have been predicted although, as with trying to predict WW I in 1910 it would have been a tough sell.  What I would have balked at would be the coordination of so many.
I would entertain eyewitnesses seeing something fly up.  I would also moderate that for various reasons including having witnessed a couple of accidents and witnessed people coming along later giving &quot;eyewitness&quot; statements to the cops.  Dot-connecting is an automatic process, and that&#039;s the most charitable view of such things.
I would entertain a MANPAD, particularly if there was evidence of something going up.
We still haven&#039;t heard about 800&#039;s altitude at the time of impact.
The shooter wouldn&#039;t have had his sight on the aircraft unless he&#039;d had a purpose-built sight for this particular flight path.  And then we have reduced accuracy after a couple of hundred meters and the altitude question.
I refer back to the Gander crash when I see the 800 crash.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>blert<br />
RPG&#8211;then sometimes called B40 and B41&#8211;were considered threats to helicopters in Viet Nam.  But then, as now, when hovering, on final, on the ground, just taking off.  Which was the case with the SEALs in Afghanistan.  Everybody I knew figured the Sov version of the fifty was worse.<br />
Actually, admittedly with hindsight, 9-11 could have been predicted although, as with trying to predict WW I in 1910 it would have been a tough sell.  What I would have balked at would be the coordination of so many.<br />
I would entertain eyewitnesses seeing something fly up.  I would also moderate that for various reasons including having witnessed a couple of accidents and witnessed people coming along later giving &#8220;eyewitness&#8221; statements to the cops.  Dot-connecting is an automatic process, and that&#8217;s the most charitable view of such things.<br />
I would entertain a MANPAD, particularly if there was evidence of something going up.<br />
We still haven&#8217;t heard about 800&#8217;s altitude at the time of impact.<br />
The shooter wouldn&#8217;t have had his sight on the aircraft unless he&#8217;d had a purpose-built sight for this particular flight path.  And then we have reduced accuracy after a couple of hundred meters and the altitude question.<br />
I refer back to the Gander crash when I see the 800 crash.</p>
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		<title>
		By: blert		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2013/07/14/the-day-after-thoughts-on-the-zimmerman-trial/#comment-629186</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[blert]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Jul 2013 16:44:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/?p=29753#comment-629186</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Richard...

I&#039;m not going to travel any further down this logical road, for I would have to quickly get too detailed as to how a fanatic might pull off such an atrocity.

That &lt;i&gt;you&lt;/i&gt; can&#039;t see how it could be done... I accept that.

Most of humanity would be in your camp.

However, there will be some clever fanatics out there who are capable of coming up with a gambit.

I give you 9-11. Had it not been done, there is no way in Hell that it would be accepted as a supposition. Indeed, we have Truthers running around even at this hour.

========

RPGs were NOT perceived as a threat to low flying aircraft/ helicopters -- until Mogadishu. Those fellows were elite, had been trained to the highest standard. THEY were shocked.

Military helicopters can flit all over -- in every direction -- yet they were being shot up by hopped up militiamen.

Jumbo jets are about as steady as a locomotive on rails. FAT targets.

It take it as a given that the zones around all landing and takeoffs have been expanded since 9-11 -- worldwide.

RPGs are as cheap as Chicklets, particularly ex-Libyan RPGs. They don&#039;t require ANY sophistication/ bomb maker/ master armer.

Multiple eyewitnesses insisted that something flew up from the ocean/ small craft into the plane.

Detonating an on board bomb just as it was taking off is weird. All prior known plots involved bombs set for the deep ocean skies -- typically multi-plane atrocities.

The point of impact is e x a c t l y where a fanatic would place his cross hairs -- the fattest part of a fat target. What a co-incidence.

It should have been explored. I&#039;ll bet the experts thought exactly like you... and dismissed the possibility out of hand.

Since 9-11 the authorities have picked up and broken up quite a few attempts to blow up jumbo jets. AQ is obsessed with re-creating the atrocity on a larger scale.

Any further &#039;successes&#039; by the fanatics would likely cause a sequence of harsh measures that would cut off all food deliveries to the ummah. Unlike WWII, no naval campaigns would be required.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Richard&#8230;</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not going to travel any further down this logical road, for I would have to quickly get too detailed as to how a fanatic might pull off such an atrocity.</p>
<p>That <i>you</i> can&#8217;t see how it could be done&#8230; I accept that.</p>
<p>Most of humanity would be in your camp.</p>
<p>However, there will be some clever fanatics out there who are capable of coming up with a gambit.</p>
<p>I give you 9-11. Had it not been done, there is no way in Hell that it would be accepted as a supposition. Indeed, we have Truthers running around even at this hour.</p>
<p>========</p>
<p>RPGs were NOT perceived as a threat to low flying aircraft/ helicopters &#8212; until Mogadishu. Those fellows were elite, had been trained to the highest standard. THEY were shocked.</p>
<p>Military helicopters can flit all over &#8212; in every direction &#8212; yet they were being shot up by hopped up militiamen.</p>
<p>Jumbo jets are about as steady as a locomotive on rails. FAT targets.</p>
<p>It take it as a given that the zones around all landing and takeoffs have been expanded since 9-11 &#8212; worldwide.</p>
<p>RPGs are as cheap as Chicklets, particularly ex-Libyan RPGs. They don&#8217;t require ANY sophistication/ bomb maker/ master armer.</p>
<p>Multiple eyewitnesses insisted that something flew up from the ocean/ small craft into the plane.</p>
<p>Detonating an on board bomb just as it was taking off is weird. All prior known plots involved bombs set for the deep ocean skies &#8212; typically multi-plane atrocities.</p>
<p>The point of impact is e x a c t l y where a fanatic would place his cross hairs &#8212; the fattest part of a fat target. What a co-incidence.</p>
<p>It should have been explored. I&#8217;ll bet the experts thought exactly like you&#8230; and dismissed the possibility out of hand.</p>
<p>Since 9-11 the authorities have picked up and broken up quite a few attempts to blow up jumbo jets. AQ is obsessed with re-creating the atrocity on a larger scale.</p>
<p>Any further &#8216;successes&#8217; by the fanatics would likely cause a sequence of harsh measures that would cut off all food deliveries to the ummah. Unlike WWII, no naval campaigns would be required.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Ymarsakar		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2013/07/14/the-day-after-thoughts-on-the-zimmerman-trial/#comment-629137</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ymarsakar]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Jul 2013 13:38:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/?p=29753#comment-629137</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I predict bombs are easier to use. At least unless you are part of Ayers&#039; group. If so, be sure to be out of the house when they test the bomb. Only way those two survived. That bomb was supposed to be for the revolution and social justice, in killing military men and their wives. Unfortunately, it was a one off only.

But instead of using a devil&#039;s proof concerning the actual incident, we can use Hempel&#039;s Ravens for this.

By judging and looking at all current and future terrorist attacks, we can see whether it is possible for them to use rpgs or not. Because if it worked once, why not again and again? Especially if there are no defenses against it. Thus far from proving an impossibility, we are thus slowly gathering relevant proof from other incidents that support the relevant concept.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I predict bombs are easier to use. At least unless you are part of Ayers&#8217; group. If so, be sure to be out of the house when they test the bomb. Only way those two survived. That bomb was supposed to be for the revolution and social justice, in killing military men and their wives. Unfortunately, it was a one off only.</p>
<p>But instead of using a devil&#8217;s proof concerning the actual incident, we can use Hempel&#8217;s Ravens for this.</p>
<p>By judging and looking at all current and future terrorist attacks, we can see whether it is possible for them to use rpgs or not. Because if it worked once, why not again and again? Especially if there are no defenses against it. Thus far from proving an impossibility, we are thus slowly gathering relevant proof from other incidents that support the relevant concept.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Richard Aubrey		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2013/07/14/the-day-after-thoughts-on-the-zimmerman-trial/#comment-629131</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Richard Aubrey]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Jul 2013 13:15:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/?p=29753#comment-629131</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[blert.
Getting skeptical here.  If there are practice runs, somebody would have noticed.  You don&#039;t quit practicing until you hit. So somebody got hit in practice.  Was that 800?  Someplace there would have been dozens of RPGs exploding near an airport.
Various sources show the max range as being 500 meters.  This is considerably more than its range to a target considerably above the shooter.
So let&#039;s be generous and figure the thing started to drop at 2000 feet.  At that point its velocity is low and whatever lead you estimated has to be awfully big, with the concomitant error.
What was 800&#039;s altitude at that point?
So the circle from which the thing was fired has to be particularly small.  And if we know that, we know where it is, and we know what kind of visibility the firing craft would have had to people on shore.
Considering the Gander crash and the following questions--to put it mildly--I figure a bomb on board.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>blert.<br />
Getting skeptical here.  If there are practice runs, somebody would have noticed.  You don&#8217;t quit practicing until you hit. So somebody got hit in practice.  Was that 800?  Someplace there would have been dozens of RPGs exploding near an airport.<br />
Various sources show the max range as being 500 meters.  This is considerably more than its range to a target considerably above the shooter.<br />
So let&#8217;s be generous and figure the thing started to drop at 2000 feet.  At that point its velocity is low and whatever lead you estimated has to be awfully big, with the concomitant error.<br />
What was 800&#8217;s altitude at that point?<br />
So the circle from which the thing was fired has to be particularly small.  And if we know that, we know where it is, and we know what kind of visibility the firing craft would have had to people on shore.<br />
Considering the Gander crash and the following questions&#8211;to put it mildly&#8211;I figure a bomb on board.</p>
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		<title>
		By: blert		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2013/07/14/the-day-after-thoughts-on-the-zimmerman-trial/#comment-628986</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[blert]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Jul 2013 03:21:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/?p=29753#comment-628986</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Richard Aubrey...

A jumbo jet is a massive target -- a flying barn door it is.

Having just come off a JFK runway, its flight profile would be predictable in the extreme.

There are NO end of practice planes to clock prior to the magic moment.

By that point in time, laser range finders were widely available even in the construction industry. (I still have my Hilti.) These would give you the height of a climbing jumbo to the nearest 0.25&quot; -- if it was still.

The use of RPGs by Somali fanatics had just occurred in the early 90s. Such a gambit begs for imitation.

RPGs are cheaper than Chicklets. So much so, that many a practice run is affordable.

The Duck of Death handed them out like door prizes or sales spiffs... right along with AK-74s. 

A ManPad would&#039;ve gone straight for the ENGINES.

The NTSB conclusion would cause us to expect falling jumbos like they were Space Shuttles.

The use of tracer would be consistent with obtaining video proof of an atrocity, something that is plainly important to fanatics. See Youtube.

It&#039;s a possibility that should&#039;ve been seriously pursued. After Blackhawk shoot-downs in Mogadishu... Clinton &#038; Co had every reason to bury the idea.

You can be certain that the relevant waters are now forbidden to pleasure craft. 

Likewise extensive security zones have been established all around sensitive sites -- just about everywhere -- since 9-11.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Richard Aubrey&#8230;</p>
<p>A jumbo jet is a massive target &#8212; a flying barn door it is.</p>
<p>Having just come off a JFK runway, its flight profile would be predictable in the extreme.</p>
<p>There are NO end of practice planes to clock prior to the magic moment.</p>
<p>By that point in time, laser range finders were widely available even in the construction industry. (I still have my Hilti.) These would give you the height of a climbing jumbo to the nearest 0.25&#8243; &#8212; if it was still.</p>
<p>The use of RPGs by Somali fanatics had just occurred in the early 90s. Such a gambit begs for imitation.</p>
<p>RPGs are cheaper than Chicklets. So much so, that many a practice run is affordable.</p>
<p>The Duck of Death handed them out like door prizes or sales spiffs&#8230; right along with AK-74s. </p>
<p>A ManPad would&#8217;ve gone straight for the ENGINES.</p>
<p>The NTSB conclusion would cause us to expect falling jumbos like they were Space Shuttles.</p>
<p>The use of tracer would be consistent with obtaining video proof of an atrocity, something that is plainly important to fanatics. See Youtube.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s a possibility that should&#8217;ve been seriously pursued. After Blackhawk shoot-downs in Mogadishu&#8230; Clinton &amp; Co had every reason to bury the idea.</p>
<p>You can be certain that the relevant waters are now forbidden to pleasure craft. </p>
<p>Likewise extensive security zones have been established all around sensitive sites &#8212; just about everywhere &#8212; since 9-11.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Ymarsakar		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2013/07/14/the-day-after-thoughts-on-the-zimmerman-trial/#comment-628965</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ymarsakar]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Jul 2013 02:06:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/?p=29753#comment-628965</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Clinton&#039;s WACO was also executed using his Justice head.

To the Left, guns are useful. But only for certain people.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Clinton&#8217;s WACO was also executed using his Justice head.</p>
<p>To the Left, guns are useful. But only for certain people.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Richard Aubrey		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2013/07/14/the-day-after-thoughts-on-the-zimmerman-trial/#comment-628882</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Richard Aubrey]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Jul 2013 22:07:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/?p=29753#comment-628882</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Y.
I believe Ramsey Clark did opine on the destruction of a town and its inhabitants in Iraq by SH&#039;s forces. Somebody had tried to off the boss in the area.  Sort of a Lidice, but Clark thought you needed a strong lesson.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Y.<br />
I believe Ramsey Clark did opine on the destruction of a town and its inhabitants in Iraq by SH&#8217;s forces. Somebody had tried to off the boss in the area.  Sort of a Lidice, but Clark thought you needed a strong lesson.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Ymarsakar		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2013/07/14/the-day-after-thoughts-on-the-zimmerman-trial/#comment-628850</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ymarsakar]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Jul 2013 20:55:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/?p=29753#comment-628850</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Having Mitsu and some other people here judge Zimmerman, would be like having a Leftist lawyer judge the actions of Iraq or Afghanistan.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Having Mitsu and some other people here judge Zimmerman, would be like having a Leftist lawyer judge the actions of Iraq or Afghanistan.</p>
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		<title>
		By: T		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2013/07/14/the-day-after-thoughts-on-the-zimmerman-trial/#comment-628821</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[T]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Jul 2013 20:01:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/?p=29753#comment-628821</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Neo and Eric,

IMO it&#039;s simple really.  The non-black is always the oppressor and always at fault (directly or indirectly) while the black &quot;victim&quot; is never at fault.  With these posts, Mitsu joins the faculty and administration of Duke &quot;University&quot; who excoriate on the basis of narrative.  Facts be damned.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Neo and Eric,</p>
<p>IMO it&#8217;s simple really.  The non-black is always the oppressor and always at fault (directly or indirectly) while the black &#8220;victim&#8221; is never at fault.  With these posts, Mitsu joins the faculty and administration of Duke &#8220;University&#8221; who excoriate on the basis of narrative.  Facts be damned.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Eric		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2013/07/14/the-day-after-thoughts-on-the-zimmerman-trial/#comment-628739</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Eric]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Jul 2013 17:28:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/?p=29753#comment-628739</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Neo,

At this point, Mitsu is revealing his prejudicial colors. He is assigning the agency of a wild aggressive animal to Martin rather than a human being. Martin was a thug, but I still assign him the agency of a human being.

On the other hand, the question is begged:

If, as Mitsu contends,  Zimmerman&#039;s mere act of stepping out of his vehicle was indeed sufficient to provoke Martin to attack Zimmerman in a manner justifying self defense, then just how dangerous was Martin on the day he died?

Other than wild aggressive animals, I can only think of someone hopped up on bad PCP being as helplessly violent as Mitsu portrays Martin.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Neo,</p>
<p>At this point, Mitsu is revealing his prejudicial colors. He is assigning the agency of a wild aggressive animal to Martin rather than a human being. Martin was a thug, but I still assign him the agency of a human being.</p>
<p>On the other hand, the question is begged:</p>
<p>If, as Mitsu contends,  Zimmerman&#8217;s mere act of stepping out of his vehicle was indeed sufficient to provoke Martin to attack Zimmerman in a manner justifying self defense, then just how dangerous was Martin on the day he died?</p>
<p>Other than wild aggressive animals, I can only think of someone hopped up on bad PCP being as helplessly violent as Mitsu portrays Martin.</p>
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