Kinda confirms what I suspected all along, but had no idea the Koreans sucked THAT bad! Great read, thanks for sharing.

Rantburg post from flight trainer with Korean experience

Fortunately, I never flew an airplane with auto-throttles. Always had the hands on the throttles during an approach. That keeps you more in the loop even on coupled approaches. To avoid getting rusty I made it a practice to alternate between hand flying and using the auto-pilot for approaches. Being able to hand fly comes in handy when you get those quick entries like the “down the Bay” 180 visuals into the 28s at SFO.

Culture can enter into the way pilots conduct themselves. I’m not familiar with Korean culture, but can imagine seniority and “saving face” might enter into it.

Yes, never restored power when he went below the glide slope. Medical issue with the senior pilot?

The localizer was NOTAM’d out, but I assume the Glide Path indicator was working.

The Captain upgradee was highly experienced and SENIOR to his IP, which I’d bet will be a factor.

The a/c came in above glide path and captured it then started sinking below as a/s bleed off–very significant.

The throttles were not in auto-throttle.

All the info above I got from the NTSB lady on TV, have watched all of them (except this afternoon will have to catch that tonigh).

I spent 30 years in the AF as an A-10/F-16 pilot and went on to fly 73s with Delta. One of my tours in the AF was as an A-10 pilot on a Korean RKAF base called Suwon. While there, I got to know several Korean fighter pilots (F-5s) and learned quite a bit about their culture. One big factor in their culture is “saving face”–a junior officer only corrects a senior officer VERY respectfully. I also noted that they flew very mechanically, by the numbers and procedures. Tended to like automation versus manual systems.

Given the above, my speculation (emphasis on speculation) is that the Upgradee in the left seat was descending to GS with the throttles in idle maintaining A/S with the decent. Upon reaching GS, either assumed the auto throttles were engaged, or forgot to engage them. After that I’m just guessing, but either he started sinking due to lack of A/S or to preserve it and the right seater simply gave him too much rope assuming that a senior pilot would see his error and correct it. As you know the go-around call/throttle up was way too late. NTSB will have to figure that part out, fortunately the pilots survived.

As for the other two pilots on board, I doubt they could see it coming. Never flew the 77, but have non-reved in the jump seats. they’re about 10′ back (it a massive cockpit compared to the 73) and you really can’t see the instruments or out the window in the landing configuration for that matter. But I bet they sucked their seat cushions up you-know-where when the stall warning horn went off on short final!!!

Cheers,

No pilot of a modern aircraft (high approach speeds) can fly it strictly by sight, sound, and feel. Instruments must constantly be cross referenced. It is possible to make approaches, even over water without any artificial glideslope information, as long as you know your altitude and distance from the runway. If you know the airport well you don’t even need an electronic distance. Certain landmarks (and there are landmarks on the left as you approach 28L at SFO) will provide evidence of your distance and you are constantly solving in your head the altitude you should be at as you pass these landmarks. There are runways at various airports around the world where this is the only approach possible, as they have no electronic aids. Not many are used by modern commercial jets, but a few are.

No, they should be able to make a safe landing with no ILS or visual glide slope indicator in such clear weather conditions. Just sight, sound, and feel with constant cross referencing of the airspeed, vertical speed indicator, altitude and runway alignment. In the simulator it was a normal part of training (at least in my day) to learn to do approaches and landings with no ILS system or visual glide slope system to reference.

There is a menu of ways the pilots can select to do any particular approach. Fully automated with the auto-pilot and auto-throttles engaged and locked onto the ILS. Semi auto with the auto-pilot and auto-throttles engaged, but the pilot steering the airplane through the auto-pilot and following the ILS display. Hand flying the airplane (steering it with the yoke and rudders) with the auto-throttles engaged but using the ILS display to guide you to the airport. Hand flying the airplane with neither auto-pilot or auto-throttles engaged (Steering with the yoke, maintaining proper airspeed and descent rate with the throttles.) but using the ILS as a guide to heading and glide slope. Hand flying the aircraft (using yoke and throttles) with no ILS – just a visual contact with the runway and the pilot’s judgment as to being on glideslope.

I’m sure that those who aren’t pilots find this all rather confusing. Let me just reassure you that each mode has its uses. The weather, traffic conditions, runway braking coefficients, and the pilot’s experience normally dictate what mode is used.

The flight recorders and the pilot interviews will tell us more than we can guess at.

It would be interesting to know the flap and spoiler settings. If they were having mechanical issues, they would have announced it. Were they incapable of flying the aircraft without the full ILS system to guide them in?