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	<title>
	Comments on: If you&#8217;re following the Zimmerman trial&#8230;	</title>
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	<link>https://thenewneo.com/2013/07/02/if-youre-following-the-zimmerman-trial/</link>
	<description>A blog about political change, among other things</description>
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		<title>
		By: Ymarsakar		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2013/07/02/if-youre-following-the-zimmerman-trial/#comment-624134</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ymarsakar]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Jul 2013 21:09:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/?p=29439#comment-624134</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I have my own judgments as to what is correct or not, but I am not foolish enough to attempt to apply them to people I have never killed, ate with, interviewed, or psychologically analyzed.

That&#039;s because it&#039;s been long enough since the time of my original training, that I&#039;ve had time to think &quot;beyond&quot; myself. Southpaw, you will need a lot more time than you&#039;ve had, to be able to think of other people as they should be thought of.

When people are initially trained, whether due to inexperience or youth, they always think there is a single correct answer: A. They think that either because that&#039;s what their experience showed them or whether because instructors showed them video and conditioned them to think so, doesn&#039;t matter.

There is no single correct judgment. There is no &quot;If that guy didn&#039;t think ahead and come to the EXACT SAME CONCLUSION AS I HAVE, they are stupid&quot;.

There is no such thing.

And a word of warning. The more you think like that Southpaw, the more you contribute to your own risk if you come to any situation that requires objective, exact, immediate survival based decision making. Human beings have a number of different goals and thoughts. The blind assumption that other people in this world think exactly the same or that they are operating by the same rules and parameters, or priorities, has gotten more than one human killed. They made the wrong assumption and obtained the wrong premise. They were too busy thinking about what was wrong with the other guy&#039;s behavior, that they forgot about interrogating their own actions and thoughts.

Whether I agree with your concept of preparation, Southpaw, doesn&#039;t matter. For the record, I agree with the majority of it when it concerns caution and avoiding unnecessary conflict. But we&#039;re not talking about what you would have done or what I would have done. I was specifically interested in what Zimmerman had done and his motivations.

If all you had claimed about things was that &quot;you would have been stupid to have done what Zimmerman was said to have done or you would have been stupid to have decided the things that eventually led to Zimmerman&#039;s fate&quot; I would most likely have agreed with you. But that wasn&#039;t exactly the line of thought you chose to investigate.

If Zimmerman&#039;s fate brings about caution, wisdom, and benefit to yourself or someone else, then learning about and investigating the matter would be a noble cause worthy of effort. If Zimmerman&#039;s fate is investigated because people are interested in obtaining arrogant power and superiority over those they think inferior and mistaken, then the investigators are living on pillars of sand.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have my own judgments as to what is correct or not, but I am not foolish enough to attempt to apply them to people I have never killed, ate with, interviewed, or psychologically analyzed.</p>
<p>That&#8217;s because it&#8217;s been long enough since the time of my original training, that I&#8217;ve had time to think &#8220;beyond&#8221; myself. Southpaw, you will need a lot more time than you&#8217;ve had, to be able to think of other people as they should be thought of.</p>
<p>When people are initially trained, whether due to inexperience or youth, they always think there is a single correct answer: A. They think that either because that&#8217;s what their experience showed them or whether because instructors showed them video and conditioned them to think so, doesn&#8217;t matter.</p>
<p>There is no single correct judgment. There is no &#8220;If that guy didn&#8217;t think ahead and come to the EXACT SAME CONCLUSION AS I HAVE, they are stupid&#8221;.</p>
<p>There is no such thing.</p>
<p>And a word of warning. The more you think like that Southpaw, the more you contribute to your own risk if you come to any situation that requires objective, exact, immediate survival based decision making. Human beings have a number of different goals and thoughts. The blind assumption that other people in this world think exactly the same or that they are operating by the same rules and parameters, or priorities, has gotten more than one human killed. They made the wrong assumption and obtained the wrong premise. They were too busy thinking about what was wrong with the other guy&#8217;s behavior, that they forgot about interrogating their own actions and thoughts.</p>
<p>Whether I agree with your concept of preparation, Southpaw, doesn&#8217;t matter. For the record, I agree with the majority of it when it concerns caution and avoiding unnecessary conflict. But we&#8217;re not talking about what you would have done or what I would have done. I was specifically interested in what Zimmerman had done and his motivations.</p>
<p>If all you had claimed about things was that &#8220;you would have been stupid to have done what Zimmerman was said to have done or you would have been stupid to have decided the things that eventually led to Zimmerman&#8217;s fate&#8221; I would most likely have agreed with you. But that wasn&#8217;t exactly the line of thought you chose to investigate.</p>
<p>If Zimmerman&#8217;s fate brings about caution, wisdom, and benefit to yourself or someone else, then learning about and investigating the matter would be a noble cause worthy of effort. If Zimmerman&#8217;s fate is investigated because people are interested in obtaining arrogant power and superiority over those they think inferior and mistaken, then the investigators are living on pillars of sand.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Ymarsakar		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2013/07/02/if-youre-following-the-zimmerman-trial/#comment-624132</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ymarsakar]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Jul 2013 20:56:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/?p=29439#comment-624132</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[&quot;Ymarskar- when you pick up a gun and carry it out the door, &quot;

The most you have been trained or taught to think is that &quot;I am stupid if I make these decisions&quot;.

You are neither qualified nor trained to be talking about what other people should be doing.

You are going to waste a significant amount of the benefit you got in concealed handgun license training separating yourself from &quot;other people&quot; when the objective was to get you to think about yourself. The objective was not for you to become a qualified court witness or judge of what happened to somebody else.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Ymarskar- when you pick up a gun and carry it out the door, &#8221;</p>
<p>The most you have been trained or taught to think is that &#8220;I am stupid if I make these decisions&#8221;.</p>
<p>You are neither qualified nor trained to be talking about what other people should be doing.</p>
<p>You are going to waste a significant amount of the benefit you got in concealed handgun license training separating yourself from &#8220;other people&#8221; when the objective was to get you to think about yourself. The objective was not for you to become a qualified court witness or judge of what happened to somebody else.</p>
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		<title>
		By: parker		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2013/07/02/if-youre-following-the-zimmerman-trial/#comment-623843</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[parker]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Jul 2013 20:01:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/?p=29439#comment-623843</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I carry a 380 when I am in big cities.  And I respect no law that says I do not have the right to defend myself with lethal force should I have good reasons to fear bodily harm.  At all other times I have an Applegate-Faribairn combat folder with both edges sharpened.  I chose to carry a weapon whenever I walk out the door.  I walk upright, breathe the atmosphere. and piss water therefore  I have the right to possess the tools of self defense.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I carry a 380 when I am in big cities.  And I respect no law that says I do not have the right to defend myself with lethal force should I have good reasons to fear bodily harm.  At all other times I have an Applegate-Faribairn combat folder with both edges sharpened.  I chose to carry a weapon whenever I walk out the door.  I walk upright, breathe the atmosphere. and piss water therefore  I have the right to possess the tools of self defense.</p>
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		<title>
		By: southpaw		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2013/07/02/if-youre-following-the-zimmerman-trial/#comment-623829</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[southpaw]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Jul 2013 19:21:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/?p=29439#comment-623829</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Ymarskar- when you pick up a gun and carry it out the door, you have either thought in advance of what you will and will not use it for, or you are a dangerous fool. My perspective I suppose.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ymarskar- when you pick up a gun and carry it out the door, you have either thought in advance of what you will and will not use it for, or you are a dangerous fool. My perspective I suppose.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Beverly		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2013/07/02/if-youre-following-the-zimmerman-trial/#comment-623791</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Beverly]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Jul 2013 17:50:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/?p=29439#comment-623791</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[It looks like the Trayvon Martin case is just the tip of the iceberg -- a friend sent me this Drudge Report link:

http://patdollard.com/2013/06/trayvon-martins-involvement-in-local-burglaries-covered-up-by-media-school-police/

The Dissident Media have uncovered something the Pravda Media aren&#039;t covering (again). Martin&#039;s previous criminal activity was covered up even before the shooting -- by an elaborate scheme by the Miami School Police Dept. concocted to knock down the statistics of, specifically, black male crime in the schools. 

Therefore, Martin&#039;s theft of women&#039;s jewelry (including diamond earrings) wasn&#039;t reported as a theft; the jewelry was never returned to the owner, but parked in the Property Dept. (lost and found), and he was suspended from school briefly. His egg donor and sperm donor (absent parents) knew nothing of the incident. 

&quot;The final approach, to insure no-one would find out about the manipulation, was to change the Standard Operating Procedure (SOP) for inter-agency information sharing.

&quot;This new SOP was outlined by a communications directive in 2010 forbidding the sharing of Miami-Dade School Police reports to outside agencies without redaction. Officers had to send any and all requests through the public information officer.&quot;

Miami&#039;s School Police also reclassifies black male criminal activity as psychological disorders so they can sweep it under the rug of the HIPAA confidentiality laws. 

Then they claimed they &quot;reduced school crime&quot; by 60%!! See how it&#039;s done? Class dismissed.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It looks like the Trayvon Martin case is just the tip of the iceberg &#8212; a friend sent me this Drudge Report link:</p>
<p><a href="http://patdollard.com/2013/06/trayvon-martins-involvement-in-local-burglaries-covered-up-by-media-school-police/" rel="nofollow ugc">http://patdollard.com/2013/06/trayvon-martins-involvement-in-local-burglaries-covered-up-by-media-school-police/</a></p>
<p>The Dissident Media have uncovered something the Pravda Media aren&#8217;t covering (again). Martin&#8217;s previous criminal activity was covered up even before the shooting &#8212; by an elaborate scheme by the Miami School Police Dept. concocted to knock down the statistics of, specifically, black male crime in the schools. </p>
<p>Therefore, Martin&#8217;s theft of women&#8217;s jewelry (including diamond earrings) wasn&#8217;t reported as a theft; the jewelry was never returned to the owner, but parked in the Property Dept. (lost and found), and he was suspended from school briefly. His egg donor and sperm donor (absent parents) knew nothing of the incident. </p>
<p>&#8220;The final approach, to insure no-one would find out about the manipulation, was to change the Standard Operating Procedure (SOP) for inter-agency information sharing.</p>
<p>&#8220;This new SOP was outlined by a communications directive in 2010 forbidding the sharing of Miami-Dade School Police reports to outside agencies without redaction. Officers had to send any and all requests through the public information officer.&#8221;</p>
<p>Miami&#8217;s School Police also reclassifies black male criminal activity as psychological disorders so they can sweep it under the rug of the HIPAA confidentiality laws. </p>
<p>Then they claimed they &#8220;reduced school crime&#8221; by 60%!! See how it&#8217;s done? Class dismissed.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Ymarsakar		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2013/07/02/if-youre-following-the-zimmerman-trial/#comment-623790</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ymarsakar]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Jul 2013 17:50:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/?p=29439#comment-623790</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[&quot;My thinking is based solely on asking myself under what circumstances I would choose to carry,&quot;

So basically you believe you know what Zimmerman was thinking and deciding because you know what you would decide and do in the same circumstance.

Except, Zimmerman is not you and you aren&#039;t him. He can neither impact your rights and safety any more than you could help or hinder Zimmerman at this junction in time.

The idea that is flawed and false is that you know what Zimmerman was thinking and deciding, purely because the media gave you descriptions of what people thought happened and purely because you have an idea of yourself.

That is the flaw in the arch.

The best you can claim at this juncture is that you would have done things differently given Zimmerman&#039;s context and events. Your claims weren&#039;t so much focused on your own individual behavior as on other people. That was the conclusion you obtained.

&quot;And that is his problem with self defense&quot;

His problems are not your problems. When you start thinking like his judgment is somehow negatively affecting your circumstance, you go down a completely wrong road to begin with.

If you call into question Zimmerman&#039;s judgment, for whatever reason, then I call into question your own judgment about what it is &quot;other people should do&quot;. Nothing you have said makes me think you have any idea of what is the right course of action for other people. All you have spoken of is training that benefits yourself.

Where is your training that allowed you to help, train, and benefit others though?]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;My thinking is based solely on asking myself under what circumstances I would choose to carry,&#8221;</p>
<p>So basically you believe you know what Zimmerman was thinking and deciding because you know what you would decide and do in the same circumstance.</p>
<p>Except, Zimmerman is not you and you aren&#8217;t him. He can neither impact your rights and safety any more than you could help or hinder Zimmerman at this junction in time.</p>
<p>The idea that is flawed and false is that you know what Zimmerman was thinking and deciding, purely because the media gave you descriptions of what people thought happened and purely because you have an idea of yourself.</p>
<p>That is the flaw in the arch.</p>
<p>The best you can claim at this juncture is that you would have done things differently given Zimmerman&#8217;s context and events. Your claims weren&#8217;t so much focused on your own individual behavior as on other people. That was the conclusion you obtained.</p>
<p>&#8220;And that is his problem with self defense&#8221;</p>
<p>His problems are not your problems. When you start thinking like his judgment is somehow negatively affecting your circumstance, you go down a completely wrong road to begin with.</p>
<p>If you call into question Zimmerman&#8217;s judgment, for whatever reason, then I call into question your own judgment about what it is &#8220;other people should do&#8221;. Nothing you have said makes me think you have any idea of what is the right course of action for other people. All you have spoken of is training that benefits yourself.</p>
<p>Where is your training that allowed you to help, train, and benefit others though?</p>
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		<title>
		By: southpaw		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2013/07/02/if-youre-following-the-zimmerman-trial/#comment-623780</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[southpaw]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Jul 2013 17:12:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/?p=29439#comment-623780</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Ymarskar -
Quite to the contrary, my thinking about Zimmerman being stupid hasn&#039;t anything to do with the media&#039;s take on any of it.  My thinking is based solely on asking myself under what circumstances I would choose to carry, and what circumstances would prompt me t use the gun.  That was a result of the training I got which explained the potential legal consequences of shooting a person in self-defense and deciding what represents a genuine threat.  
 The training is very clear that when you decide to carry the firearm, you are taking a big risk yourself.  If you use it, you need to be certain it&#039;s a life threatening situation, and moreover, you need to convince a grand jury and a police detective of that.  You cannot dismiss that the detectives and DA are going to examine closely the situation --  and how you came into a life threatening situation is a valid question.  Being carjacked is different situation than driving home from the grocery store and noticing a punk wandering around your neighborhood, and following him.  You can certainly do that, but you&#039;re trained to understand that no matter what the situation is in a shooting, you&#039;re going to be arrested, thrown in the back of a police car, and taken to the station for questioning.  The advice in CHL training is not to say anything without a lawyer.  Nothing.  So based on what I have learned, I think Zimmerman used bad judgement, IF he expected anything other than a lot of trouble, and part of carrying a weapon is deciding where and when you are going to be in situations where you would need to defend yourself.  The vast majority of people have a good idea of when they might be going to a dangerous area or situation and using judgment is part of the responsibility of carrying a concealed weapon.  Most of CHL training is explaining to you that you are assuming a lot of risk, even in a clear cut self defense case.  And they show you many, many examples of real cases that don&#039;t make the national news, where people who were attacked through no fault of their own went through legal hell defending themselves.  
  There&#039;s no doubt in my mind that Zimmerman was either poorly trained, or used very bad judgement to put himself into that situation.  Before you put on the gun, you need to be clear in your mind when it is needed and when it isn&#039;t.  And that is his problem with self defense -- in the moment he used the gun, it was self defense, in the moments leading up to that, he should have been thinking about where he was going and what he was doing.  Martin had no right to assault him, but Zimmerman could have avoided it,  and was advised to do so by the police.  He should have taken that advice.  The definition of self defense begins with avoiding or managing conflict when possible, and his best self defense in this case was to go home.  
  I would recommend the classes even if you have no intention of getting a license. Probably half the contributors to this site have a license -- I don&#039;t know. My opinion is you need to think long and hard  ahead of time before you walk out the door with the gun.  If Zimmerman has done this, and still decided this was the kind of situation where he needed to insert himself and use his gun,  then I stand by my statement that he is stupid and shouldn&#039;t have a license.  Because that says he made up his mind ahead of time he might do something like this.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ymarskar &#8211;<br />
Quite to the contrary, my thinking about Zimmerman being stupid hasn&#8217;t anything to do with the media&#8217;s take on any of it.  My thinking is based solely on asking myself under what circumstances I would choose to carry, and what circumstances would prompt me t use the gun.  That was a result of the training I got which explained the potential legal consequences of shooting a person in self-defense and deciding what represents a genuine threat.<br />
 The training is very clear that when you decide to carry the firearm, you are taking a big risk yourself.  If you use it, you need to be certain it&#8217;s a life threatening situation, and moreover, you need to convince a grand jury and a police detective of that.  You cannot dismiss that the detectives and DA are going to examine closely the situation &#8212;  and how you came into a life threatening situation is a valid question.  Being carjacked is different situation than driving home from the grocery store and noticing a punk wandering around your neighborhood, and following him.  You can certainly do that, but you&#8217;re trained to understand that no matter what the situation is in a shooting, you&#8217;re going to be arrested, thrown in the back of a police car, and taken to the station for questioning.  The advice in CHL training is not to say anything without a lawyer.  Nothing.  So based on what I have learned, I think Zimmerman used bad judgement, IF he expected anything other than a lot of trouble, and part of carrying a weapon is deciding where and when you are going to be in situations where you would need to defend yourself.  The vast majority of people have a good idea of when they might be going to a dangerous area or situation and using judgment is part of the responsibility of carrying a concealed weapon.  Most of CHL training is explaining to you that you are assuming a lot of risk, even in a clear cut self defense case.  And they show you many, many examples of real cases that don&#8217;t make the national news, where people who were attacked through no fault of their own went through legal hell defending themselves.<br />
  There&#8217;s no doubt in my mind that Zimmerman was either poorly trained, or used very bad judgement to put himself into that situation.  Before you put on the gun, you need to be clear in your mind when it is needed and when it isn&#8217;t.  And that is his problem with self defense &#8212; in the moment he used the gun, it was self defense, in the moments leading up to that, he should have been thinking about where he was going and what he was doing.  Martin had no right to assault him, but Zimmerman could have avoided it,  and was advised to do so by the police.  He should have taken that advice.  The definition of self defense begins with avoiding or managing conflict when possible, and his best self defense in this case was to go home.<br />
  I would recommend the classes even if you have no intention of getting a license. Probably half the contributors to this site have a license &#8212; I don&#8217;t know. My opinion is you need to think long and hard  ahead of time before you walk out the door with the gun.  If Zimmerman has done this, and still decided this was the kind of situation where he needed to insert himself and use his gun,  then I stand by my statement that he is stupid and shouldn&#8217;t have a license.  Because that says he made up his mind ahead of time he might do something like this.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Ymarsakar		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2013/07/02/if-youre-following-the-zimmerman-trial/#comment-623761</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ymarsakar]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Jul 2013 15:46:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/?p=29439#comment-623761</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[One of the ways the Left advances government totalitarianism is by convincing the regular folks at the bottom that some guy doing X is somehow going to affect your security, wealth, and freedom negatively. This can easily convince people to give power to the government in order to &quot;fix&quot; things.

Conservatives are actually even weaker to this type of propaganda than other people, due to the ideology over &quot;personal responsibility&quot;.

The Left can blame all sorts of things on &quot;personal responsibility&quot; and their enemies eat it up. Sarah Palin was &quot;responsible&quot; for ethics violations. George Bush was &quot;responsible&quot; for lying about WMDs and people dying from lies.

People just eat it up.

Personally, the Left are full of evil people who need to be terminated with extreme prejudice and whenever they talk about personal or legal responsibility, I don&#039;t hear a word of it. Not a single word. I don&#039;t care who they think is responsible. I don&#039;t care who they think is right or wrong. I don&#039;t care who they think should be punished or crucified as a result of it.

I&#039;ll deal with all those questions of &quot;personal responsibility&quot; after the blacks and other slaves have been freed and the Leftists terminated. Then we&#039;ll hold a jury and trial, a real one, to determine who was &quot;responsible for what&quot;.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One of the ways the Left advances government totalitarianism is by convincing the regular folks at the bottom that some guy doing X is somehow going to affect your security, wealth, and freedom negatively. This can easily convince people to give power to the government in order to &#8220;fix&#8221; things.</p>
<p>Conservatives are actually even weaker to this type of propaganda than other people, due to the ideology over &#8220;personal responsibility&#8221;.</p>
<p>The Left can blame all sorts of things on &#8220;personal responsibility&#8221; and their enemies eat it up. Sarah Palin was &#8220;responsible&#8221; for ethics violations. George Bush was &#8220;responsible&#8221; for lying about WMDs and people dying from lies.</p>
<p>People just eat it up.</p>
<p>Personally, the Left are full of evil people who need to be terminated with extreme prejudice and whenever they talk about personal or legal responsibility, I don&#8217;t hear a word of it. Not a single word. I don&#8217;t care who they think is responsible. I don&#8217;t care who they think is right or wrong. I don&#8217;t care who they think should be punished or crucified as a result of it.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ll deal with all those questions of &#8220;personal responsibility&#8221; after the blacks and other slaves have been freed and the Leftists terminated. Then we&#8217;ll hold a jury and trial, a real one, to determine who was &#8220;responsible for what&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Ymarsakar		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2013/07/02/if-youre-following-the-zimmerman-trial/#comment-623757</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ymarsakar]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Jul 2013 15:19:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/?p=29439#comment-623757</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[&quot;So my thinking is a little different now — I think Zimmerman was very stupid, and not the kind of person who should be licensed to carry a firearm.&quot;

This is based upon the premise that one can read the minds of other people merely because journalism has exposed their private affairs.

Human empathy doesn&#039;t cross hundreds of miles of real space, at least not normal human can do so.

It&#039;s a very falsifiable premise. This makes the same mistake as it accuses Z of: bad judgment backed up by the erroneous assumption that one has the power and knowledge to get it right.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;So my thinking is a little different now — I think Zimmerman was very stupid, and not the kind of person who should be licensed to carry a firearm.&#8221;</p>
<p>This is based upon the premise that one can read the minds of other people merely because journalism has exposed their private affairs.</p>
<p>Human empathy doesn&#8217;t cross hundreds of miles of real space, at least not normal human can do so.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s a very falsifiable premise. This makes the same mistake as it accuses Z of: bad judgment backed up by the erroneous assumption that one has the power and knowledge to get it right.</p>
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		By: southpaw		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2013/07/02/if-youre-following-the-zimmerman-trial/#comment-623753</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[southpaw]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Jul 2013 14:54:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/?p=29439#comment-623753</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Since I recently completed CHL training, I have a slightly different opinion of the Zimmerman/Martin incident than I did when it was first reported.  Assuming Zimmerman&#039;s story is true, and I believe it is, he was within his legal right to defend himself. But.
 But I also believe he has set back the right of citizens to carry a weapon for self defense.  In my case, the class instructors focused a lot on what the statutes say, and real cases of licensed people who have defended themselves.  The reality is that even those who have been in situations where the average observer would agree they were justified to use deadly force, the legal difficulties of convincing a grand jury your life was in danger is quite a different matter.  The instructors spend a lot of the class challenging you to think about why you want to have such a license, and when you would cross that line to use deadly force.  By doing so, you are putting yourself in a situation that may not end well for you.  You may be indicted, and a jury may find you guilty.   Even if you&#039;re cleared, you&#039;re going to spend $50-100k to defend yourself in the aftermath, because you can still be sued in civil court regardless of your innocence.
Regarding Zimmerman - if he was just on his way home, minding his own business and he was attacked, that&#039;s a clear case of self defense - or as clear as it can be..  But the intent of the license to carry isn&#039;t for people to deputize themselves and patrol their neighborhoods  -- i&#039;m not denying his right to do that, (and it sounds like he did this on other occasions) but it&#039;s not the reason we have the right to carry a weapon for self defense.  At the very least, don&#039;t do these things alone.  
 If he had not been carrying a weapon, I doubt he would have been following suspicious characters in his neighborhood, or anywhere else.- the fact he had a gun is one reason he was willing to be the neighborhood watch guy - and do so alone.  So to take it one step further, I believe he put himself in a dangerous  situation he could have avoided, and he put himself in it simply because he was armed. Whether we agree with it or not, the right to carry is not intended for this kind of use, although I understand the Florida law actually allows for it in some broad sense.  Even if if does allow him to be an instigator or initiator, this trial is evidence that laws can be interpreted different ways and with race injected, all bets are off as to what a jury will do.  
So my thinking is a little different now - I think Zimmerman was very stupid, and not the kind of person who should be licensed to carry a firearm. I don&#039;t doubt he felt he was going to get his brains beat in at the moment he pulled the trigger, and from what he says, Martin saw the gun and went for it. That&#039;s fear for your life, but the context is going to be investigated and considered, and the CHL classes teach you to understand this can and probably will happen after such an incident.    Zimmerman stretched his right to carry further than necessary, and beyond what was intended for reasonable citizens to defend themselves.  He should have known better.  If Martin were in his front yard, or somebody else&#039;s, kicking in doors or assaulting someone, that&#039;s a different situation - looking suspicious isn&#039;t a good reason to put yourself in danger - let the cops handle that, and go back to your house and defend YOUR property and family.
   For a person to carry a weapon, they need to know the difference between being proactive in situations, and when you or another person is about to become a victim of a potentially life threatening crime. If Zimmerman felt he was going to die, the law allows him to to do what he did, but it&#039;s a risky and questionable situation for him to have stepped into, and his actions don&#039;t help the rest of us who can be trusted to use better judgment.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Since I recently completed CHL training, I have a slightly different opinion of the Zimmerman/Martin incident than I did when it was first reported.  Assuming Zimmerman&#8217;s story is true, and I believe it is, he was within his legal right to defend himself. But.<br />
 But I also believe he has set back the right of citizens to carry a weapon for self defense.  In my case, the class instructors focused a lot on what the statutes say, and real cases of licensed people who have defended themselves.  The reality is that even those who have been in situations where the average observer would agree they were justified to use deadly force, the legal difficulties of convincing a grand jury your life was in danger is quite a different matter.  The instructors spend a lot of the class challenging you to think about why you want to have such a license, and when you would cross that line to use deadly force.  By doing so, you are putting yourself in a situation that may not end well for you.  You may be indicted, and a jury may find you guilty.   Even if you&#8217;re cleared, you&#8217;re going to spend $50-100k to defend yourself in the aftermath, because you can still be sued in civil court regardless of your innocence.<br />
Regarding Zimmerman &#8211; if he was just on his way home, minding his own business and he was attacked, that&#8217;s a clear case of self defense &#8211; or as clear as it can be..  But the intent of the license to carry isn&#8217;t for people to deputize themselves and patrol their neighborhoods  &#8212; i&#8217;m not denying his right to do that, (and it sounds like he did this on other occasions) but it&#8217;s not the reason we have the right to carry a weapon for self defense.  At the very least, don&#8217;t do these things alone.<br />
 If he had not been carrying a weapon, I doubt he would have been following suspicious characters in his neighborhood, or anywhere else.- the fact he had a gun is one reason he was willing to be the neighborhood watch guy &#8211; and do so alone.  So to take it one step further, I believe he put himself in a dangerous  situation he could have avoided, and he put himself in it simply because he was armed. Whether we agree with it or not, the right to carry is not intended for this kind of use, although I understand the Florida law actually allows for it in some broad sense.  Even if if does allow him to be an instigator or initiator, this trial is evidence that laws can be interpreted different ways and with race injected, all bets are off as to what a jury will do.<br />
So my thinking is a little different now &#8211; I think Zimmerman was very stupid, and not the kind of person who should be licensed to carry a firearm. I don&#8217;t doubt he felt he was going to get his brains beat in at the moment he pulled the trigger, and from what he says, Martin saw the gun and went for it. That&#8217;s fear for your life, but the context is going to be investigated and considered, and the CHL classes teach you to understand this can and probably will happen after such an incident.    Zimmerman stretched his right to carry further than necessary, and beyond what was intended for reasonable citizens to defend themselves.  He should have known better.  If Martin were in his front yard, or somebody else&#8217;s, kicking in doors or assaulting someone, that&#8217;s a different situation &#8211; looking suspicious isn&#8217;t a good reason to put yourself in danger &#8211; let the cops handle that, and go back to your house and defend YOUR property and family.<br />
   For a person to carry a weapon, they need to know the difference between being proactive in situations, and when you or another person is about to become a victim of a potentially life threatening crime. If Zimmerman felt he was going to die, the law allows him to to do what he did, but it&#8217;s a risky and questionable situation for him to have stepped into, and his actions don&#8217;t help the rest of us who can be trusted to use better judgment.</p>
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